S1A021K
<$B> Uh how I started first as a writer is very interesting because I myself never thought uh much of being a writer but it all came about when I thought I had a lot of time on me and personally as I was in school I was very much interested in literature but that literature interested not making me feel that I wanted to be a writer or I wanted to be uh writing at any one time of my life but somehow uh I found myself in the year of nineteen seventy-six when my husband travelled out of the country with a lot of time and uh I didn't know actually what to do with my time and then I had this idea and the idea in fact it came when I used to listen to the founder of our nation the late Mr Joma Kenyatta and you know talking and I had the desire to write about him and like to imitate his speech but put it in writing and actually my first ever manuscript when I started writing I started writing Mr Jomo Kenyatta's speeches but in my language
<$B> So although I must confess to date it's not yet published not yet although uh I hope one day it will so that's actually how I got the interest
<$B> Yes I was married I was working but by the time my husband left for some course abroad I stopped working that was nineteen seventy-six as I said March and I had two workers in the house I had had my first two daughters and I just found everything is done for me uh My children my babies are taken care of and really I didn't know what to do with my time I wasn't working and uh that's how it came about and I must confess I wasn't up today I don't drink uh so in far as socialising my socialising was very minimal Not that I'm not a social person but by then my socialisation with people was very minimal so that's how I found myself having a lot of time to myself
<$B> I <-/>I really didn't have special times although I found most of the times that I would concentrate more was in the evenings after the two girls had been put to bed and then the evening would seem like it's very long for me and the evening would start at something like eight o'clock when the babies are asleep and the workers have gone to their quarters and that's the time I would call special because it's then that I would actually concentrate
<$B> Yes I was inspired as I said earlier by the fact that I loved literature and I used to read books by Kenyan writers and I remember for example I remember there was an old lady uh By now she must be and she's about the first Kenyan writer I read about She was she's called Grace wa Chuma and she wrote a small book in my mother tongue that is Kikuyu and I <-/>I kind of used to think I can imitate her
<$B> Yah
<$B> Charity wa Chuma
<$B> Yes <-/>yes so she was kind of my I somebody I admired and I thought that uh I would imitate her but write other than in Kikuyu also I would now start thinking of writing in English and I read a lot of uh other novels by non-Kenyans but nevertheless women writers
<$B> I must admit most of them were from Europe especially Britain and uh I used to love their kind of uh writing and < />thi < />thi it's <-/>it's it was romantic but it's not that you know so deep It's just something as one would say you know normal thing that I kind of those days used to enjoy that kind of you know reading
<$B> Yes they were available here very much
<$B> What made me change the language is Okay number one as I've told you this writing of Kikuyu was wanting to write kind of a biography of our late president but I started when he was still alive then I got inspired like uh I can write a fiction a story and having been inspired by that particular lady and
<$B> Yes I then actually uh started hearing you know people especially women talking about uh things that had happened to them and in this instance I had a friend I still have her as a friend who is actually up to now married to an Asian and she would tell me the problems she had in her marriage and the problems that actually the man went through uh even to a point of being disowned by his family because he is an Asian Here he is he's in love with an African girl and he wants to marry her and at a very tender age when this boy was supposed to be in Standard Four was thrown out from his house from his own brother and this girl was illiterate To date she is uh just now uh reading the <-/>the the adult literacy classes and they eloped and I found that story very fascinating Here she is she's telling about her life and as we're talking right now that lady is a grandmother and she has lived happily very happily with her Asian husband because finally the Asian family came to accept the <-/>the Kikuyu African girl because they didn't have a choice because they saw that really <./>the their man or their boy is stuck to this girl so finally they accepted her and she even wedded in their Asian traditional marriage so also that story inspired me and that was my ever novel I wrote
<$B> yes
<$B> Uh I wrote it in English because I must confess you see Kenyans majority of Kenyans especially uh my targeted market is the young people Majority don't know my mother tongue and even though they may be Kikuyus they don't know how to read it and understand it uh Swahili is not very much appreciated in our young people in as far as reading is concerned so uh and I must also confess I may not have been a very good Swahili writer you know and in Kikuyu the readers would be minimal yes
<$B> Yes
<$B> Yes it was translated later on
<$B> Yes
<$B> Yeah
<$B> Yes
<$B> Men women young people uh These are my targeted uh so to speak people because uh my kind of writing like that one was The message there was really both to the young people and to their parents like you as a parent you really may not have much control over your son or your daughter's love affair and maybe the best you can do is counsel her If you think she can't change her mind then I think the best advice is just accept regardless of tribe race or nationality It works it can work and for the young people the message was like if you really feel that this is the man I want or this is the girl I want regardless of race tribe or whatever then there should not be any barrier hindering you from that kind of a marriage and in fact when that book was reviewed in the Kenyan press the <-/>the reviews were very very very positive you know like uh racial harmony The uh Weekly Review's heading of a review was uh Racial Harmony you know that really it's <-/>it's not the tribe or race that is the problem you can still make it
<$B> Yes
<$B> I used my friend's situation to create a story not to discredit her but really to show that it can happen in real life So you see her story it's just that now I kind of elaborated and the only fiction about it is names because you or her place where she came from I have changed uh to suit where best I could close my eyes and just you know figure it out how it could happened but the truth is it's true it's a true story in form of a fiction because it is there
<$B> That's a question I've always been asked even by the Kenyan media
<$B> And I can tell you here and now that it was it turned out to be very interesting because first I thought it would be me to pay the publisher or the printer for that matter I had not the slightest idea that I would get a penny out of my writing I thought it would be me to pay so when I first took my manuscript to various publishers in our country I took about two to about two of them two or about three because two uh replied negatively and the only people that were interested in having further discussion on it was Kenyan Literature Bureau When it came to the actual now signing of the agreement it is then they told me about royalties that they <-/>they even talked about advancing me some money which I
<$B> I thought well you mean are you serious you know like are you saying I'm going you <-/>you are the one to pay me Is it not a mistake and I came to realise that I can actually make money out of it which came to completely as a surprise to me I must confess it was a total surprise to me that they were paying me even before they published the book what they were calling advanced royalty and I thought well this is something very nice I'll try again
<$B> And I have been trying
<$B> Uh I <-/>I think it was to my first it was to my satisfaction uh because by my satisfaction I mean I felt happy that I am able to communicate to other people that something like this is possible if you are talking about I <-/>I felt kind of pride in me that I am able to tell people that this is possible so it was actually more of my satisfying myself that I can do it and that's why even before I knew I would make money out of it I was even prepared to do it whatever little money I had I would have sacrificed if it had meant that yah
<$B> No uh if I go back to my schooldays very briefly I was never impressed by poems and I must confess up to now I'm not very I <-/>I don't understand poems not even now and I happened to have a teacher who was my literature teacher I still remember her name she was Mrs Buchanan and this is I'm talking about the sixties when I did my O levels at Secondary school and we were doing Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe and Macbeth by Shakespeare and I used to love her talk about Things Fall Apart and I <-/>I think I created a situation whereby I got so much interested that in her assignment in the <-_>in the<-/> story I would miss doing anything else but not that not to get good marks but I enjoyed and I would read that book over and over again and I could see you know that world of I didn't understand now it was world of creative writing but I now see it so I <-/>I had always gotten interested in uh stories other than poems and for that matter I wasn't interested in short stories that you can read you know a short story in five minutes then you go to another story and then you go to another story I <-/>I wasn't really keen on that I wanted to read a whole you know novel That interested me I would want to see the beginning and the middle and the end of the story in its length full length
<$B> Uh after starting in nineteen maybe seventy-six it may have taken me to write the novel itself maybe uh three years or so because you see then I would of course get lost somehow now what did I want to say about this so it was like little by little and as I <-_>as I<_/> have told you I had not this urge in me that I didn't know I was going to make Maybe if I knew I was going to make a cent out of it it would have improved my speed
S1A022K
<$B> We may agree that the patriarchal societies I mean they are the same They are structured according to structure education work but we find that the problems women face right in Kenya are totally different In fact it will also depend on the community you come from A Swahili woman will not face the same problems as a Kikuyu woman would face You see the image of a woman in Kikuyuland is different from the image of a woman in Swahili land
<$B> Yeah I'm Kikuyu
<$B> Yah that's what I'm saying
<$B> Something peculiar although mostly the Swahili you know has been influenced so much by the Arab image the Islam religion that the woman should not work a woman should just stay in the house be a symbol something beautiful something to be adored by the man that kind of thing but on the other hand you come to Kikuyuland to the Bantu tribes you find that the woman is a beast of burden The man is just a figurehead there You work in the farms you look after the cows you look after the children you look after everything
<$B> Yah and in fact some of the money you accrue from your work he uses it as a dowry to get a second wife see
<$B> Yah even another wife
<$B> Yes then you are supposed to submit to that kind of thing
<$B> Yes in fact in some <-_>in some<-/> cases apart from our generation now who are refusing that they are not going to be used for that kind of purpose although what they do the men just walk away in protest from you and they go sort of to someone else
<$B> No in our area they don't call it divorce as such They will just separate from you and go and start a completely new life as if you didn't exist You are still in the group of the women to look after but of course he's not looking after you like giving you economical independence You just bear his name There's nothing else he's going to do for you So what I'm arguing is that the problems will be different You might be worrying that your husband or your boyfriend may not be interested in helping you in the house We are worried that they can't even help us in the farms We <-/>we become economical assets to them anyway because they are going to use you as economical agents They are going to accrue wealth using you but not appreciate your effort For example I may give an example of a woman who will look after the coffee and she'll get all the money from that coffee but the account is in the man's name so any time the money is being taken the man will come and go back with it to the city and of course spend it with whichever you know women he wants and you are left there with your children suffering
<$B> They are but the traditional set up of the rules and the traditional cultures we grew in determine a lot what kind of image you get For example you go and accuse your husband at the police station that he has beaten you and they will dismiss it as a domestic affair Nobody will raise a finger <./>e even now even in the streets even in a bar you can be beaten and nobody will raise a finger
<$B> You have a right but you will be beaten yah So you find that there is a lot of contradiction between what is in the laws and what is practised
<$B> Well they are doing a lot For example we have formed a lot of lobby groups We have like the Fida the group of women lawyers who are taking up all the cases of women who are battered abused
<$B> Women who are separated raped and that kind of thing We also have people who are just insinuations against women For example a politician would stand up and say This man is so useless that we are going to replace him with a woman You see when you are useless you can only be compared to a woman You know that kind of linguistic insinuation Then they'll say leave them they are behaving like pregnant women
<$B> They are behaving like pregnant women who make noise for nine months and after that period of course and so forth then they go back to normal which means the period of gestation is being looked as a kind of madness where a woman is not responsible for what happens you know to her life That kind of insinuation is the kind of thing they are saying That is still very entrenched in our roots in our culture You compare somebody like a woman you know looking for a man a prostitute there are then politicians are behaving the political parties they are behaving like prostitutes who aren't allowed in hotels You know you see these kind of linguistic insinuations act a lot on the woman question Even women ourselves will tell you stop behaving like a woman you know And I'll use it myself
<$B> Yah what I'm saying is that whatever culture brought you up has been entrenched in you so much that even when it's against you as a person you don't realise
<$B> Well it has changed but I still think we have a long way to go before we can reach that level where we can argue that the woman question in society has changed You see we are still we still believe women form a social class of their own and they are supposed to be treated in a particular way such that it doesn't matter at whatever level you are even if you are a university professor and another one is just a village housewife Your husband will see you both They don't see that the kind of education you have acquired has enlightened you to refuse some of these traditional set-ups for you You see I even have a case which got us very much bitter of a mother-in-law who had her daughter-in-law circumcised after five births You know She insists that this woman cannot live in my compound because she's not
<$B> She was already married and she was there with her five children
<$B> She must have been in thirties in her late thirties I remember it was in the press
<$B> The husband was a party because they believed that a woman unless circumcised
<$B> She's is not complete you see
<$B> Yah that is why I'm telling you the roots which reared you are still so much entrenched in you that it doesn't matter what you have undergone you might not have changed ideas you see I'll still believe a woman is not complete until she gets this kind of she gets circumcised
<$B> Okay
<$B> Yeah Charity wa Chuma
<$B> Okay
<$B> Yah in fact it was during the colonial era in the fifties Around nineteen fifty-two Even before that we had splinter groups Those who had been bought by colonialism assuming the Christian kind of religion and they believed circumcision was evil but we still had a splinter group which up to today do it you know the Kikuyu are doing it Meru are doing it even Kisii still feels that circumcision is right you see so it would depend on what school of thought you are following as an individual
<$B> Well I think well under the majority now because Christianity has almost taken root in most parts of the country Yah and those who do it will do it secretly because if you are <./>rea I mean if you are found out that you are circumcising your daughter they will ostracise you from the Church You will be excommunicated but it is still practised and uh I still know my relatives my own relatives who are supposedly Christians but they still take their daughters Now they take them either to hospitals or to other places where they can do it without the <-_><-/> community to know what you are doing So it will depend on whether you believe in it or you don't believe in it
<$B> I'm saying I'm in both Because in our department we teach both I'm in the Swahili department We teach Swahili literature and that's why we call it ourselves the Department of Swahili and other African languages So we are interested in the literatures of the people and their language So you find that I'm interested in the Kikuyu language I'm interested in the literature also For my M A I did women question how the image has changed in historical periods and for my PhD now I want to do all literature I want to look at women in the traditional image in the images which come up in the genres of all literature to see how the images we have in our society today
<$B> I looked at three historical periods before colonialism came in colonialism during the time of colonialism and independent era For before colonialism well that is why I my current work I looked at a book I <-/>I mean a play a poem written by a woman lady She was giving her daughter some kind of advice
<$B> Okay but you can understand the message
<$B> So this woman is advising her daughter on <-/>on how she's going to behave towards her husband so that she can lead a happy life after that She told her you must look after his health You cook for him You bathe him You are You massage him You do all sorts of things and then for yourself you have to look like a flower So you massage yourself also You make up your face that kind of thing And then when he tells you something you should never answer back You should take it because your husband is going to be instrumental on whether you go to hell or heaven If he says you go to hell that's where you go
<$B> If he says you go to heaven you go So you are here It's sort of she's advising her that she's of lower intellect and she has to be guided by the man And that's actually what we have in our African cultures Men <./>belie believe women should be looked at as children and that's what they believed has written a paper Maybe I should give you a copy She was doing a comparative study between the Maasais and encouraging the women questioning I think in analogies And she was saying that women believe actually they are like children and actually when a Maasai man or a Kalenjin man is counting his children he will include his wife in the number So when he tells you he has five children he means
<$B> Yes he'll not say the wife he'll say five children you see so the wife is included in that
<$B> Not necessarily age It's because they believe you have to treat them bad the way you treat a child you have to guide her You have to you know check up on them and that sort of thing still with women I think that is what we have in most societies anyway They don't call you children as such but the way they treat you that you have to be physically beaten when you do something wrong to be corrected you see the kind of you the kind of thing you'd do to a child When a child does something wrong you believe to correct that behaviour you have to beat him and that's actually the equivalent threat in most African societies So I was arguing that in that stage the woman is perpetuating the need that the woman is inferior to the man and she has to continue being an appendage to the man if she is to survive That was during before colonialism With the coming of colonialism things changed a lot The men were taken to the forest The women were left alone They had to start doing the roles which were traditionally male roles
S1A023K
<$B> Okay I was very interested in listening to stories when I was young and uh when I did my uh college education here before I went to Britain to graduate I wrote a few stories which were very much recommended by the tutor who was uh supervising my dissertation uh I think I put down about fifty stories at that time which were very much appreciated even by members of uh <-/>of my group and I was asked to read quite a number of them every time we had children's literature lessons I did not think at that time that I really wanted to make a book so I moved with them to Britain when I got a chance of going for further education and uh when I was asked to think about what I wanted to do for my dissertation again I just chose stories And I sent back home for more of the ones I left behind to be sent to me And actually I worked on a small book which I'm still keeping in my house which I typed myself I had learned how to <-_>how to<-/> type when I was in Britain I typed these on stencils and I produced a small book and my tutor was also very very impressed and in fact uh asked if I could uh leave some of those copies with him and find a way of publishing them I didn't think much about them at that time I came back and again I was offered another scholarship here at the University of Nairobi And uh although this time uh my dissertation was not on children's writing I kept on translating more and more stories until one day uh one of the directors of a publishing house at that time East African Publishing House uh asked me to go and see him with uh my stories because I think he had heard about <-/>about them So I took the file and uh he looked through them and said why <-/>why don't we sit down and select some of these stories and publish them So I <-/>I was really grateful that somebody recognised uh my work and he took out the file and did a selection and then we got together and we selected stories together and grouped them into three groups One set we called Another set we called and another we called and that is how the first set of first three sets of books came into being uh I think at that time as far as I remember they said I was one of the first African writers of children's books It's a pity that I didn't follow this up very much until after about ten years I came to ask about my file and again selected a few stories which uh gave me another title
<$B> Well that's strange I think in every African village and I grew up in a village uh in the evenings normally uh mothers uh told stories to their children particularly girls and we used to gather around my mum who was very fond of telling stories and she told us a number of stories And some I remembered at the time I was doing this at college but at that time she was still alive and I used to go back to her to tell the stories so that I can improve on them So a number of the stories I <-/>I could remember the titles and uh a little bit about them but she perfected them when I started seriously uh writing them down So that is how I actually got uh to write the stories but again I was also interested in telling stories and most of the time after I'd been told stories I would gather other children maybe the following day or a week later and tell the same stories to other <-/>other children In fact my mother used to say that I couldn't do anything but teach because even with other things singing and all that I used to get children together then just teach them songs and uh stories again If I was told a story I also went out and gathered other children and told them stories
<$B> Yeah that's right and uh I didn't visit my grandmother so very much because I started schooling when I was still very young and went into a boarding school when I was young But during the holidays I used to visit my grandmother and she also told very interesting stories which I <-/>I also used to tell again to others So it was both my mum and uh my grandmother
<$B> Children yes
<$B> Oh the villagers'
<$B> Yes neighbours' Yeah We lived in a small community Yeah And in fact every afternoon I think it happens in every community you know boys uh play football and all that And girls would gather and play games of various kinds Before we parted you know I used to tell stories Mainly in the evening after we had fetched water and uh firewood and things like that because by then we didn't have tap water and charcoal was not very easy to come by So we used to go collecting firewood and fetching water and in the evenings then we would sit down and uh I would tell stories or we'd play games
<$B> I enjoyed telling stories and I enjoyed sharing you know what I had with others
<$B> Because mainly you know my mum used to <-/>to sit after we had It is like you know recreation When everything else is done you sit down and then you <-/>you recreate So it for her you know that was the time she got us and we sat round and she'd just tell stories to <-/>to us as <-/>as her children Yeah Then I thought it would be good also to share these with others I <-/>I haven't up to now asked them whether their mums also told them stories but they used to enjoy you know listening to me telling them stories
<$B> In most of the
<$B> Yeah It's very interesting There's not one story that has no song So most of the time when I told stories there were songs I could sing it once and then they join
<$B> Yes In between <-_>In between<-/> Yeah
<$B> Most of the time in between and if you look at my books it was very difficult to put these songs as they were and since these were being edited for a particular group of children we sometimes used to distort them by trying to make them rhyme and all that It doesn't come the same way and I can't even sing them the way I've written them then But if you saw the manuscript in my language then they were written the same way we sang them
<$B> Luo
<$B> Most of <-_>most of<-/> the time it is not for them to respond but when you come to that it's like a chorus Everybody joins in
<$B> No <-/>no <-/>no They still sing they still sing Most of the stories have those songs Very very few stories you'll find without songs They have <-_>they have<-/> songs
<$B> Yeah
<$B> Yeah In the rural areas
<$B> I did a lot of that I think it's only my last daughter who missed Maybe I was getting too much involved because uh I had her when I was preparing for the Women's Decade I didn't have the time but I know that my husband even got books to read to her you know if I couldn't tell the stories but the <-/>the first two really heard stories told by me
<$B> No <-/>no <-/>no Not the responses No <-/>no <-/>no I just told the stories the same way I used to tell them
<$B> Yes
<$B> Yeah And then they got translated
<$B> No <-/>no <-/>no That one I would do now I didn't do it at all You know the <-/>the stories were just being told for enjoyment
<$B> They <-/>They have messages but we <-/>we really did not you know discuss that mainly for <-_enjoyments><+_enjoyment>
<$B> Yeah Yes I think I would say that
<$B> No stories are not grouped Not even for you know not even age because you know the I would respond the same way <./>th you know my daughter or somebody else would respond to the same the same stories I I've never you know had you know grouping in telling stories but of course when you come to schools you know sometimes the like the stories I wrote would be given to primary school but I find that you know grown-ups enjoy those stories just as much as children yeah So in my mind I've never had to write stories for a you know specific or tell stories for a specific group of children yeah
<$B> No
<$B> Yeah
<$B> Yes Yeah that's what it is
<$B> Yeah
<$B> I wish I had the books with me but I think every story has got a <./>str some <-/>some <./>imp implication yeah except that at the end of my stories now if I'd to write them then I would ask questions you know how they react to <-/>to <-/>to every bit of <-/>of story But like one of the stories I think in there was this old man you know who <-/>who used to go begging particularly on market days and uh he made use of the seeds you know by drying and then later on planting them along the roads you know So that the seeds then produced you know fruits and these fruits were really enjoyed by <-/>by many people And uh children should see that you know as something that is somebody who is not very very rich you know uh caring for other people yeah that kind of implication in that <-_>in that<-/> particular story
<$B> As I said every <-/>every story has got something to teach yeah either morally or otherwise So at the end I would ask just how they you know how they themselves even see themselves in that <->in that<-/> story
<$B> <-/>mhm
<$B> No Mine ends they <-/>they all kind of have a conclusion
<$B> Yeah yeah In fact most of the stories end with this word tinda That means that is the end It's like Amen when you finish a prayer
<$B> Tinda It is Luo yes
<$B> No my particular stories are still the same Yeah but if you listen to other people you know They try to <-/>to have stories march with the time But if we have to keep our oral tradition really you know the stories should be kept the way <-_>the way<-/> they were <-_>they were<-/> told So I don't see much particularly for my stories changing People may want to but I don't think I will encourage that Yeah They should remain just the way they were
<$B> Yeah uh you know oral uh literature is being encouraged And uh it is to transfer really the said to written And that should not be distorted really It should be put just the way it is Just <-/>just the way I say it
<$B> Yeah It is true that uh we're at the moment thinking very much about gender issues and uh even there is an inclination of you know changing some of the stories so that uh they don't uh look as if you know that one side was suffering So that uh I would call it maybe gender neutral So that we balance you know whatever you put in writing This might not you know affect the stories so <-/>so very much maybe it's those who are doing creative writing but if you take most of the stories and analyse it particularly with the students maybe you could just find one or two gender disparities And uh I think that maybe the new writers who are doing creative writing who would be the ones that who'd see to it that uh gender sensitivity you know is not lost in the in telling stories or creating <-/>creating stories
<$B> I think that you know the <-/>the maybe the authors will have to sit down and just see ways in which they can change their writing So that we <-/>we don't just do it abruptly like that It must take you know it must be a gradual process you know changing the way we have heard the stories and have them written without distorting them
<$B> Now I personally feel that it is not going to be very difficult for me I would not really interfere with the stories that have already been written but I would take up whatever new uh writing you know I would be doing to be more gender neutral
S1A024K
<$B> Well yah because I have these memories living with my grandfather who was a very very old man and I remember he used we used to go there to be sent there to cultivate by my parents you know We had a piece of land there it was about <-_>it was about<-/> fifteen kilometres away from home So I had the chance of living in a round thatched hut where everything took place there cooking The fire-place is there My grandfather is there In the evening he would be telling us stories because he was a warrior my grandfather He had been fighting
<$B> Yah When he was a young man he was a warrior In fact he had a big dent here and he had a nickname because of the dent This dent he got fighting with the Maasai You know the Kikuyus and the Maasais they used to have tribal wars and he used to go fighting and even brought a wife from Maasailand So he used to tell us all these stories about fighting with the Maasais all kinds of things and I was so fascinated You know there was no light there was nothing The fire would be small dying there in the middle of the <-/>ah It was so wonderful And then during the day there were those girls you know we used to call them they used to wear these calico sheets you know not modern dress tribal traditional And we would go collecting firewood In fact you know in there is a place where I'm talking about insects you know You somebody's saying you take a heap of insects like this you go around your head seven times This is something I did I went there with that girl in the forest to collect firewood and she showed me all these these <-/>these black insects you know a heap like this and she said you know if you do this take some go around your head like this you always find luck on your way And you know these things we were doing: if my mother knew being a Christian she would have been so disappointed So that's why you know people think uh There was one girl who read my I was saying and she told me <-/>ai you know what people are saying the person who has written this book must know a lot about witchcraft She must you know <-/>know a lot about witchcraft She cannot be a Christian I said Why <-/>ai those things there Okay Anyway they wondered how I was brought up in uh a very very Christian background my mother my father You know in fact my mother was an evangelist She's remembered because she really was wonderful when she went out preaching She was an orator And if she stood to pray they would all be moved She was very very highly gifted in that light So with us we were supposed to be going to church We were not supposed in fact to know all these traditional songs You know there are songs during circumcision during whatever during weddings all those songs
<$B> No not at all In fact even today whenever we go to my village where I was born It's not far away from Nairobi It's about fifteen kilometres but it's on Limuru Road going to Limuru Now whenever we go there there's a small river That brings nostalgic memories because at that small river that's where circumcision took place and our house was right up somewhere and you could look out through the window Very early in the morning when we knew that there was circumcision going we woke up very early in the morning to look through the window to see those people going and listening to the songs And if my mother knew we were even looking out <-/>ha We would get into trouble And then I remember one of the girls in the village got circumcised and you know after the circumcision of course they wear these calico sheets and they have a lot of safety pins all along and somebody puts five cent coins all along and they go about you know looking happy and we were somehow envious about that kind of the group you know We were not We were outsiders and I don't know what happened I think we thought one of them was being so conceited we beat her up me and my sisters <-/>ai and when my mother heard that we had beaten up this girl <-/>ah we had to hide in the banana plantation at night because we were going to be beaten up Okay Then at school in the primary school there were those girls who were circumcised Very few of us were not And one teacher I remember this story very well one of the teachers a woman teacher who was circumcised wanted us to be beaten up the girls who were not circumcised So she called the whole class all the girls from that class where we were to come outside and they made a big circle and we were called in the middle There were four of us and they were now saying these girls have been abusing the others what what what and they wanted to beat us And you know they did not beat us because we ran away We understood what was happening and we just ran away So in fact during my childhood everywhere you went they knew you had not been circumcised And they called you names
<$B> No well I'm now going talking about even in the village the people If you went about everywhere you were walking and people knew you were not circumcised they would call you names I remember being called a European a what a what So it's like we were so insecure because of that and
<$B> In that village you know you counted the Christian families It's about ten ten families So and my mother of course they did not want the parents did not want us to mix with those who were because they were called uncivilised what what It was hard But somehow I made it up because me going to my grandfather's house I learnt a great deal from those women I learnt all the songs And I remember one day my auntie We were cultivating and we were singing those songs as we cultivated those traditional those songs that we were not supposed to sing We were just singing singing <./>sing And then we stood up and who is in front my auntie <-/>ai And she was just looking And she says she couldn't talk because now being coming from a Christian family and this is what you are doing Anyway that was life at that time
<$B> You know this novel like now I've told you my own grandfather he's a man I respected very much I was small here he was living a very very traditional life and my grandfather he had his patch of land He was cultivating He was growing maize and I will never forget the kind of maize he grew and the kind you could sit on that ground it was so clean not a wheat not any not a wheat it was clean It was like in a park You could lie down there I used to lie down whenever we went I'd look at the clouds clouds clouds going round It was so beautiful And you know he would crawl on the land cultivating even at that old age So he inspired me so much And then what inspired me is that my mother who was a Christian had no conflict with him And I remember my grandfather was asking my mother one day Why do you send these girls to school Why do you want them educated She said well they have to be educated And then my mother would ask my grandfather I remember Why do you go about cheating people that you can heal them Because now he became a medicine man And my grandfather I will never forget the answer he gave my mother I was there and he said let those who want to be cheated be cheated He was not going to argue saying it's a good thing or what They respected one another My mother respected my grandfather you know her father And then my grand respected her although they were they had they held different ideas ideology about My grandfather was very much a traditional man and in fact every morning before he got out of his house he would call a small boy one of his sons because he had many wives One of the those little boys would come to the house first That boy had to come to the house first before anybody else came so that you know there was uh happiness luck whatever So that's where really I saw traditional life Of course that's my grandfather Now where I was born nearby there was a pool a pool of water and you know I don't like being inside the water I fear water You know water that has collected I fear And you know this pool around it were big big bushes You know it was so mysterious and there were these little paths you know leading to this place
<$B> Yah there were animals going there to drink And this pool looked so mysterious to me when I was a small child so I think that one also because I saw it in my childhood and all these things I have written you know in the some of them you know I think is what I was inspired when I was a small child going to my grandfather's and also where I lived Now this other one bringing in of course that one is interesting also because there was uh a woman in my village She was married to my uncle <./>half you know step-uncle This was the most conceited woman I have ever seen I remember one day her <-/>her <./>grand her the mother of her her mother-in-law Her mother- in-law was traditional but this woman because her husband was a clinical officer he was working at the hospital and he was quite advanced at that age at that time This woman was so proud she was so beautiful but she was so so proud My house my <-/>my parents' house were like here and theirs were like that one being back there next door Now her uh <-/>her sister-in-law is it sister-in-law Yes came to visit one day They came from far away with some friends to visit <-/>ai Do you know this woman refused to allow them inside the house because she thought they are very dirty they are what they are what And we had to go there get them and put them in our house You know that thing got into my head I said <-/>oh no I can't stand this kind of thing looking down upon people because they are poor they are not what So my somehow you know I had that feeling of this woman who troubled my head all the time So that's how it was a lot
<$B> Yah you know also when I was writing you know I as I was writing that novel I had a lot of problems within myself And in fact I remember I was weeping sometimes as I was writing that time I was weeping weeping weeping So I don't know but maybe the reflection of what I was feeling at that time I don't know
<$B> Yah at that time I was having a lot of problems with my husband and this feeling of wanting to be free and I'm not allowed to be free and I was feeling it very strongly at that time And in order to forget I had to wake up There are times I couldn't sleep I was just writing this book so
<$B> I did not identify with
S1A025K
<$B> An anthology of ten short stories They are mainly about women I like a particular one here very much here Usually it is the rapist who is killed but in this case the woman uh who was going to be raped actually managed to kill the rapist
<$B> Yes So I don't know how I did it but maybe I liked the story It's called It's just called I have it here and other stories And then the other story here My <-/>My people are polygamists the Luos and it appears that this man has got uh uh five six wives and he is going to marry another one and the youngest feels that he shouldn't marry another wife so she goes to someone a counsellor
<$B> Not a healer but uh somebody yah he's a healer he's a medicine man He gives love potion so the woman goes and tells him uh she's unhappy because her husband is going to marry another wife She's been the youngest and the most loved and she wants that position to continue So he gives the woman this woman some <-/>some medicine some ash and it appears that the man the medicine man has a grudge against the <-/>the woman's husband because the woman's husband lured one of his wives from him So instead of giving the pure love ash he gives something very potent So the woman goes and follows his instructions and puts it in his in the husband's gruel and the husband drinks and dies immediately And the wife also manages I don't know how but some of the poison gets into her and she was expectant and she also dies It's you know it has one of those but you can't say it is something which used to happen It happens here not only among the Luos most African women
<$B> It's still happening Most African women believe that you can get love potion
<$B>
<$B> have you read
<$B> And
<$B> I have a good one called
<$B> What was happening before the white man came
<$B> Uh Of course we you have to develop and then again also I think the time has come when the African woman needs to <-/>to now what would I say Yes we also have to change We cannot stay in that situation where was That was our way of living That was the time I wanted at least those who were non-Africans to know what it was before the white man came that we were very human with all that love and you know jealousies and so on greed for power people fighting uncle fighting uh nephew and so on But now in this situation also how are the young girls going to handle it you know Like I tell them also always in my writing we have to uh tell the children read write about our own stories But we also have to tell the children about the current
<$B> Yah because as I was saying <./>th that some of our traditions were very aggressive especially to the woman and now with all this development we cannot just let them be because they are our customs I tell them as we are growing as we develop we must discard some of the aggressive customs and only carry on with what is good And <-/>And you know somebody said if I knew a woman called but I didn't know anybody It was just my imagination I've never known anybody with that problem but you know you always take bits and pieces from your society and put it up you know uh and create something out of it So I thought because there are several young girls who find themselves in this situation it may be that after independence with all this freedom and so on some of our men became very irresponsible So you find that a woman actually goes through what 's mother went through And now that <-/>that was the mother now if finds herself in that situation how should she handle it you know so I was not teaching someone but I was just saying your mother was you know very passive about you are you also going to be passive about it or are you going to try and you know be different because these are different situations you're not in the same situation You probably had more education and more exposure than your mother and that's what I was trying to say
<$B> Yah but even <-/>even in you see that old grandmother was very strong and very positive She sort of you know uh ruled the island behind the scenes isn't it Yeah You remember I don't know Maybe you read it too long ago
<$B> Yah but so my women characters are usually very strong and very positive like in the young woman also is forced to marry the father's business partner and she goes along with everything until the wedding day Then she <-/>she elopes with her <-_>with her<-/> boyfriend and they fly to America something like that You know that I remember when I was very young my mother told me a story of a <-/>a girl who was being forced to marry someone and she actually waited and never appeared The husband went to The bridegroom went to church and the <-/>the bride never appeared And this always fascinated me So I created made it modern and created this story for me Yah
<$B> 'Cause I think we our women are very strong usually They are very strong In fact uh uh there are hardly because even the witches are strong That's why they have that power to <-/>to change things or to sort of rule people with their power and the medicine and so on But I think that the women are strong but we usually like to play it down yah
<$B> Yah even in daily life Because in most places like we know that in African villages it's the women who are feeding the nation especially like in Kenya here People like my mother my mother-in-law they you know they dig in their patches of land and collectively this is bought and is taken to the Maize and Produce and this happens in almost every community of every African country But even in homes I think if the women were not strong there wouldn't be many African homes Not that the men are weak but women play a very you know
<$B> essential part Yah In daily life Yah Sort of you know seeing what are people going to eat and so on And that's why I say our emancipation and our women liberation and yours cannot be the same because the African woman has got a lot of responsibility She sort of goes out looking for food while you stay at home and the man goes out to work but the African woman is responsible for feeding the household you know for the well-being of the household to see who is sick who is lacking something who is you know and so on and so forth So I think that's just being unfair to the women that when we <-/>we <-/>we portray them we tend to make them weak and weak and weaker This is not the case really
<$B> No not <-/>not anymore and of course it also depends on the various ethnic groups because uh it is what the society wanted the woman to be That you cannot be you know if you are a woman with no sons then you have let the society down you have let your husband down So if you are a woman they always either have to get a brother to be on the background somewhere to support you or an uncle or a cousin Just that women are just regarded as nothing
<$B>
<$B> is here fully It's printed fully There they cut some bits away
<$B> Because she's very young yah
<$B> But because the man is so much older The man is so old She is only sixteen and the man could be forty something or going fifty and then it is a forced marriage uh What is her name she is called is going to school and knows what she wants but the uh her husband is treating her just as he has always treated his other wives who were brought to him
<$B> No no they're not
<$B> No he says when they're quarrelling the day goes he says I wanted you to come and live with me but you said you wanted it yourself So you cannot blame me for neglecting you It was her choice
<$B> Maybe the way they are being portrayed Yes
<$B> Yah <-/>yah it was also because you see they even when they say women don't make decisions but there came a time when the men were meeting and there's something very difficult they have to make a choice so one of them would say let us go and sleep on this and ask our <-/hairdress> and the <-/hairdress> were always the women So in a way the women also had you know a psychological influence on all these things but rather quiet behind the scenes but there are cases in which when they could come out and say I'm sorry this is not what I want to do I don't think this is right Like when the uncle <./>Dim Dima's uncle wants her to go and get married and she says I don't want him to look after me because we are not friends You were allowed to do that because it was a very close relationship and you could only he could only look after you if you were friends Yah So there were areas in which it was allowed There were areas in which it was allowed like Later on when the man uh wants to take the cows and so on uh A widow's you know step-son has always had a lot of powers over their <-/>their step-mothers but there came a time when a woman can say I'm sorry I need that cow Don't take it and so on Even you can always speak out Women always spoke out but they were always beaten physical violence in most cases yah because you have no right you are just a woman If <-/>If you are making a choice which goes against the man you're always judged as being stubborn and you might end up having an arm broken or something like that yah
<$B> He fell down yah He had a fit yes
<$B> Not really because that is what it used to be but if things have changed and the <-/>the men and the society still want to be that in this changed situation then maybe it won't work So I think that's just why I've taken for her to make choices to see what is right you know That uh you see in the traditional society a daughter-in-law always looked after her mother-in-law It was expected of her to do it But in she chooses it herself Not because the society expects her to do it but because she has just one child she falls sick they have become friends and now she has to choose either to leave her or out of choice look after her not because The society of course also expects her to do it but they would have excused her because she's very young she's just married and then she's she doesn't belong to the village you know The villagers are wondering what she's doing there you know remaining when she should be with her husband She's been to school She's not one of the village girls
<$B> Not in all cases no
<$B> It's a generalisation But I know some even for wives where there is so much solidarity that they end up beating the husband up thoroughly Yah there <-/>there are cases in which
<$B> Yah in polygamist marriage but even in <-/>in <-/>in some <-/>in <-_>in some<-/> homes Usually the mother-in- law of course there is this myth about the mother-in-law that she is always evil always jealous of her son and so on but of the wives rather of her son but uh there are areas in which they are co-operating quite well
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<$B> It was uh actually late sixties when I was in Form Six but before that I had written I actually started writing when I was Primary Six not for publication but I <-/>I say I wrote because I still have my composition book in primary six and I still enjoy the <-/>the compositions I wrote the narratives and also my children when I give them I they enjoy those stories and in secondary school when I was studying for my O level when I was in Form Two I was approached through my sister by a British lady who was teaching in uh <-/>in one of the colleges in one of the primary colleges in the country to write stories and she told us she would publish the stories and so we cracked our heads my sister and myself and a brother and we came up with the stories I <-/>I remember I wrote about four and we gave them to my sister to take to the lady but unfortunately that is the last we heard about the stories
<$B> She took them up to now we don't know what happened to those stories but I kept the interest and when I was in when I went for my A levels Form Five and Six I found myself with a lot of time because I went to what was referred to as High Courses Schools Those are schools which had been started for white children only during colonialism and we were actually among the first applicants to go to such schools So they had a lot of programmes for outings and so forth but you could not go out unless you were picked by a car and my father was about one hundred and seventy kilometres from the school He did not own a car so most of the times I was in the school and I did not know how to <-/>to spend the time and that's when I thought that I <-/>I should actually write so that I don't get bored by staying in the school and what I actually wrote about I would say is not my own experiences but I was enacting the experiences of my father and mother because uh my mother and father used to tell me a lot of stories particularly my father
<$B> Yah but not those folk tales My father never told me a single folk tale but he used to tell me about his own experiences as a young man the in the tribal wars between the Kikuyus and the Maasais because his own father had died during one of those intertribal wars So he had actually fresh memories and he kept on retelling the stories and also his experiences during the <-/>the First World War The <-/>The Africans were actually recruited to fight in the First World War but he was an only son and my mother was quite scared
<$B> So all the tricks she used and they used
<$B> He used to relate them to me and he so there are so they became so fresh to me like my own they became like my own experiences because they <-/>they were repeated once and again every time I was at home and these are the experiences I wrote about is actually the experiences of my father and mother re-enacted by their daughter
<$B> She was a My mother was purely a Kikuyu but there were a lot of things I wanted to clarify from her particularly the women in their relationships with the men the place of women in the society some of their traditional practices regarding women which I was not sure of
<$B> Not so much of that In the book we see there is such an episode where the Kikuyu men are invaded by the Maasai trying to get some cattle but that <-/>that is just a highlight to show where the fears of this about the Maasai is from but actually is about the Kikuyu social set-up and the place of the children and the women in the social environment where it comes out that the women and the children are were actually underprivileged in a way
<$B> They did not have a lot of rights a lot of say in the society because it was a male dominated world but towards the end of the book the woman is glorified because there she becomes although she's not the main character in a way she becomes a hero because she starts a maternal family whereas we know that in Kikuyu society we are paternal <-/>paternal families So this is why I called the book because it is the one of the <-/>the women in Kenya who is said to Kikuyu society as portrayed in that book to liberate herself from male domination in the society
<$B> No no They did not know what I was writing because none of them went to school None of my parents went to school but they valued education a lot That is why they saw to it I was educated so actually they don't know what I wrote
<$B> Kikuyu Yes They don't even know
<$B> They don't My <-/>My father passed away nineteen seventy-five but uh my mother they don't know how to read or write either in Kikuyu or
<$B> I don't think that was they were not bothered You see such parents the world of books is so alien to them They just want you to go to school but they don't know what you are doing and they are not interesting interested in a way They may be interested but to them it is so distant from them So they did not bother to ask me what I was
<$B> First of all uh the story-telling I think it is a great tool in developing other storytellers and in my context I had to write because I did not have a situation where I could become an oral storyteller and also when I was in Standard Six we had a very good teacher I think that one also stimulated me a lot because every thing every event he could <-/resee> it he could re-enact it in form uh story form <./>Ev Every small event he could retell it in form a of a story now because of all the <./>stor <-/>the stories I had gathered from my parents I think this is what stimulated me and uh what I found when I was doing my dissertation on reading literature to stimulate creative writing in Kenyan secondary schools is that in order to develop writers we need to experience the young children to a lot of good writing because I <-/>I think when you are exposed to a lot of stories there is that drive and even in the traditional set-up those who became storytellers normally uh were acquainted or in a way they grew up in a society or in a family where there were storytellers You get initiated It is <-_>It is<-/> a process you have to get initiated into it
<$B> Yah
<$B> Not really because when I wrote it I'd just done oral literature and at that time I wouldn't say it was so structured into literary criticism as it is now We were mainly It was mainly geared to ask the appreciation of the story and in Form Five and Six I never did any literature So in my mind I did not have any structure or plot and the and so on and language form neither did I know for what audience I was writing I believe I didn't know the message but there was a story to be told I was just telling a story
<$B> Now
<$B> Now But at that time <-_>at that time<-/> I did not know what the theme was but there was a story to be told but now I see the context because I can relate now gender issues to <-/>to the book which I did not actually know about at that time
<$B> Yes as it was
<$B> As I see it now but I was just retelling re-enacting a story
<$B> At that time I did not think in those terms
<$B> In school yah
<$B> Maybe it was most spontaneous for me to write in English because during most days and even now the mother tongues because we have so many I think over forty The mother tongue is only taught in the lower primary up to Standard Four and so when you are writing particularly when you are in your school I think the language you are using uh in your school work is the one which is more spontaneous I <-/>I never thought about which language to use I think it is because as I was <-_>as I was using<-/> it in school and you'll find that most mostly Kenyans will write in English probably <./>bec I don't know whether they think about the <-/>the market because at that time when I wrote I did not know about things about the market how the language governs the market but I just found myself writing in English
<$B> Well what happened is when I finished Form Six I had already completed the book I took it one of the publishers
<$B> East African Publishing House It has closed down now
<$B> Yah They returned the manuscript I think it was a bit discouraging without uh <-/>without comments Then I gave it to uh when I went to the university when I was in first year one of my lecturers was a British I gave him the book and he liked it and he took it to Kenya Literature Bureau but uh when he went away and he had no time to follow it they returned it to me They <-/>They said the plot is not fine enough something vague at that time Maybe now if I kept the notes I would know I would understand but at that time I did not understand what they were talking about so now I thought what was I going to do with this work and that's like I gathered courage and I gave it to and as he says in the introduction he <-/>he liked the book He took it back to Kenya Literature Bureau and they <-/>they said they don't understand it they don't understand the book So can he write the introduction They wouldn't publish it Normally novels you don't write an introduction
<$B> But the editors said they <-/>they don't understand it Unless he writes he commits himself by writing an introduction they <-/>they wouldn't publish it and that is why he wrote a very long introduction to convince them the book should be published
<$B> At that time
<$B> I thought it was because <-/>because I was an inexperienced writer probably I <-/>I thought <-_>I thought<-/> it was because I was <-_inexperience><+_inexperienced> because I a high school student writing a novel She wants it published who has never been heard before I think it is because of inexperience and then I'd say probably publishers maybe discourage some potential authors by returning manuscripts without comments or with vague very vague comments which they which discourage the authors because if had not pushed it maybe I would not have written the other stories I've written I would have become very discouraged and then forget about it
<$B> Readers
<$B> It has never been reviewed What the only publicity there's been is by Kenya Literature Bureau itself by writing it as one of the titles in the seventies as one of the many titles in the seventies but it has never been reviewed as such and the only feedback I got is from a Ugandan who said he liked the book a lot after he had read it and he there was a time the Ugandans I don't know whether it was Minister of Education wanted to buy all the copies which were in stock then but I think there was a problem with the currency so the books were not sold
<$B> I think when I went to the university after O Level after A Levels I got interested in literature because I had completed that book and I thought maybe I would be a better author if I did literature So I <./>start I took up literature at the university although I had not done it in A Levels But now looking back I'd think it did more harm to me as far as writing it as far as writing is concerned Studying literature made me a teacher and now it has made me an officer in the
S1A027K
<$B> They sent out a call for stories and papers yeah So we sent in stories Then the external board met and discussed them stories poems and all that They said they had a problem with short stories They had many more poems
<$B> <-/>mhm I don't know I think maybe people have problems writing short stories Either they write poems or they write novels yah
<$B> The short story is not very well developed
<$B> Well yeah let me talk about Kenya It's not so We don't find many people writing good short stories
Yeah so well you know so they had very few and uh well we published what we could Now the press we had press coverage that the stories were not so good well
<$B> Uh well they said the quality was not very good It <./>doesn didn't really go into detail but actually he said there was maybe one or two that were good and the rest were not very good and they said the papers also there were some You saw some articles yeah he said you know they too were not very good but the person didn't really say Okay now the person only went into details about the article that talks about African literature yah
<$B> Saying that it's quite outdated
<$B> Wawira something like that I think that's the one yah Style in the African Novel okay So this critic was saying that it's very outmoded
<$B> So yeah but otherwise they didn't really but they said the quality was not very very
<$B> Oh I don't know I know one of the founders was Ngugi wa Thiong'o so that must have been quite a long time ago
<$B> <-/>Aha yeah <-/>aha <-/>yeah So it went dormant as I was saying in the early eighties yeah and then we just revived it not so long ago
<$B> Yah it's mostly men yeah not very old but I mean it's mostly men yeah Now well with women we are we hide in the kitchens you know all the time so yeah
<$B> Well I think it's difficult for women to stand out anywhere I mean the struggle in life it's so hectic and then writing well which women write you know I think it's only women who have been to university or you know who would except for this uh Kenyan woman what's her name yes Ngurikie yeah but otherwise you know mostly it's women who it's people who have been to university who would write Now I think men who have been to university would still the leisure to sit down and think about literature and write but with women we get bogged down with children families and so maybe that's why yeah So we are very few yeah I mean okay we are fewer than men yeah
<$B> Yeah you know in the sixties and early seventies there was a lot of excitement uh you know just after independence So you know the euphoria I think enabled people to hope and dream and therefore write about their dreams and then the economic crisis started hitting biting in the seventies and then the African governments became very
<$B> Yah tight so I think you know one had to watch what they said and publish I mean writing was became quite dangerous so I think there were you know I mean like the people who were writing were people who really known you now Ngugi can afford to say anything you know Somehow he'll get a Western government to save him yeah but if you are not known you know nobody will even know you've been jailed yeah So you know I think I think also that's part of the reason because like uh well the generation of Ngugi and all that they started writing when they were much much younger than us people
<$B> I mean my generation my generation
<$B> Uh so let me say yeah uh we are students you know We are students of Ngugi you know so I think it was easier for them to write because the atmosphere was more relaxed uh but for us you know by the time we left university etcetera
<$B> No I went to university in seventy-three so I finished in seventy-six
<$B> Late seventies yeah so I was saying okay we were talking about maybe that's why there was that gap not just with but with many Okay I think one person who has kept on writing was He's a man he teaches here Okay he kept on writing but I think other people especially people who had not started maybe I think couldn't even get the courage to start <-/>mhm So I think we had to wait until the late eighties you know to gather courage again
<$B> Okay I think it came from the nineteen eighty-five conference End of uh Women's Decade Conference uh I think until then Kenyan women or maybe African women hadn't realised that you can speak out you know and then suddenly there was this big conference in you know in Nairobi and everybody was talking about women's experiences So okay I think that's what also encouraged uh people to start doing things There was I think a conference that took place a no a seminar that took place I think it was around eighty when did it happen maybe eighty-seven a follow-up I think so I remember attending something uh and then you know people were saying yeah but now that the decade is over you know what next I mean do we just bury everything Yeah so I think it was a follow-up from the decade I think it was yeah achievement
<$B> Yeah I mean I don't know One has to let out what is in their heart uh you know Okay I think for other women you know okay other women the more affluent women they go out to saunas and things like that and they talk you know I mean we can't afford to We can't even afford one sauna per I don't know
<$B> Yeah or per lifetime So <-/>So you know what else do you do so okay after you've finished gossiping and all that you know yeah So I think it's also a very nice experience to feel that you can let out what is in your heart and <-/>and then see it shared by other people I think it's an exciting experience yeah but then okay I personally am not burdened with all those things so yeah you know yeah I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of I mean I have a very relaxed job
<$B> Uh well I like to write the kind of stories that I would like to read I mean I find it so boring you know these stories about the husband beating the wife and that kind of you know very depressing literature I mean I find it so boring I mean I just I can't even go through the story yeah I think we should no matter what our sufferings are I think we should write something more positive and show women triumphing you know over their situation rather than just you know moaning that we are so oppressed you know the men do this and that to us yeah So I hate complaining I hate moaning I think it's more interesting to create like a dream world
<$B> Yeah there is somebody who wrote Letters to the Editor in <-/>in one of the dailies in the Nation and it was a woman and she said this is obscene you know She said this is really totally disgusting and she said that after I read this story she quoted the story she didn't quote my name not that it matters to me Well she said after I read this story I gave it to my husband to read because I was totally disgusted something like that and he also agreed with me that this is pornography Yeah and she said it's like 's literature
<$B> Yes so she said this is not the kind of literature we want our children to read and she said I had to hide this book uh I had to hide this uh magazine because I would not like my children to come across it So yeah you know it's true people don't want to even think that a woman can do some things I mean it's okay for the man you know Nobody will be shocked I mean it's not like in some western countries where somebody has to resign a prominent man has to resign because it's discovered he has a mistress I mean here nobody would have to resign It would be ridiculous to even report it
<$B> Yeah I mean I think it's just that we have refused to <-/>to be what I mean to be fair to each other you know the man and the woman yah I mean you know if the man can love his family and you know come home to his wife and all that and only once or twice a week you know see his mistress then why can't
<$B> Yeah uh yeah so I think <-_>I think<-/> it's something that is possible
<$B> Kenyans Well you know the adult readership yeah I mean okay so seeing I find it so boring to always be moaning that the men are doing this to us the men are doing I think we should also tell them that that there is something else I mean to say that there is something else you know and show what else is possible I mean it's possible to smile in life to dance to you know not just to sit there and you know have a cup of coffee and say oh men do this to us men do this to us I mean why don't we do something about it
<$B> I think it's for everybody The men also found it very The male readers found it a bit controversial
<$B> Uh they okay they said they found it very funny <-/>funny not funny but
<$B> Yes strange you know yeah I mean they write such stories but that we should say that this kind of thing is possible is a different matter altogether
<$B> Yeah so like the male readers were quite amused you know but I think it's still a good I think it's a good thing It shocks a bit yeah Then people start getting used to
<$B> Yeah I'm very sure it's very frightening for them yeah <-/>yeah They wouldn't dare tell you you know this is frightening no they won't but you know they say oh your story was really funny you know uh
<$B> Yeah West African and Caribbean and what I saw the themes in the themes there's not much difference I mean you know like women are not any more say revolutionary than <-/>than male writers about women's issues I mean like you know is very outspoken in defence of women but I think what I find uh Now Caribbean women were different I mean they talk about themselves more you know like the African women whom I studied and this was nineteen eighty-three to eighty-six so it's women who wrote in the late seventies uh they deal with very you know like domestic issues but I mean domestic uh What I <-_ mean is like domesticated issues I mean they don't dare say things that will shock everybody you know like uh okay they'll show women talking about politics but not a woman you know contesting a presidential seat because by that time you know it was unimaginable <-/>unimaginable uh So you know at that time the themes were not different I think it was really I didn't find any difference I had set out I mean I was almost sure that I would find women writings very very different from male writing but I didn't uh Now Caribbean were as I said were more outspoken Therefore they said things that men had maybe not said about women like okay I remember one thing that really struck me it's this in she's talking about a woman who is the first wife of this patriarch and she is already considered very old so he has stopped sleeping with her and all that and then we are told that she's thirty-two I think she's thirty-two or thirty-six
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<$B> I was saying uh that I am an optimist and uh regardless of the problems uh with which women have to contend uh in order to produce any writings because of the many roles that they have to play I think women are very committed to uh improving on their position and uh I see here in Kenya for example uh a lot of hope for women writers to emerge Now what is happening is that uh the few women writers we have today are trying also to influence the younger generation uh There are times that I have been invited for example to go and uh adjudicate drama in schools and I always find myself influencing the children there to write and write works which do address themselves to the position of women In a small way we are influencing even the younger generation In a small way through our writings we are also influencing society that it is important for women to write I think there is hope You can't of course quantify you know how much how many writings there will be coming up in the next century or so but I see you know a lot of hope
<$B> I must say it's very difficult for a woman to write especially if she's not uh if her job is not very close to books I would say for example she has has been working as a in education administration I think the atmosphere there is not very good for creativity for creative work A woman who is in a teaching profession like myself like uh uh it's you know a bit I won't use the word easier but I think the situation we are in is more conducive to production of literature uh I would say that that is uh you know a difference
<$B> No I would not agree I would not say that women's issues have just started last year I would not even say that
<$B> The discussions I would not even say that the discussions started uh you know in nineteen eighty-five I think the discussions have been there It's only that uh maybe the heat if I can use that term
<$B> Yes maybe right now we are hotter because programmes have been introduced Sometimes I must say that you know even the donor organisations are taking a keener interest than before and therefore you know you are able to produce texts like uh the one you were showing me This one was uh wasn't it
<$B> Supported by Sida
<$B> Yah so it's the heat I think we are becoming hotter as time goes on because of various uh you know reasons
<$B> The political development yes thank you very much The political development in Kenya is also uh playing a role and this democratisation process is contributing in the sense that uh people are becoming freer in expression than before Therefore where in the past you would have been afraid of being termed anti-African culture if you talked against wife-beating for example today you are not afraid of that yah
<$B> Now I would say yes and no uh I'll start with the no Uh The African woman has not uh always been impervious to uh change that is uh she has not always taken those beatings without saying no to them She has not always carried those <./>burd those burdens without saying they are too heavy There has always been uh a kind of uh you know background resistance by women Granted it was not vocalized in the same way in which it is vocalized today because we were living in different types of cultures and uh there were certain yah certain norms to observe okay So there <-/>there was resistance from the women but not in the way in which we are doing it now now before
<$B> What I want say is that there are influences yes from the west both from uh writings and also from you know ideas that we share in certain forums like uh during the eighty-five uh the nineteen eighty-five End of Women's Decade you know Conference or when uh any of us travel to a conference overseas there are ways in which we influence each other but what I strongly uh disagree with is this idea that uh liberation of women or whatever we might call it because we haven't come up with one term
<$B> Striving for equality or whatever is something that we're importing from the west That one I would disagree with
<$B> Because yah it was part of the traditional culture It's only that the mechanism was different uh Yah
<$B> <-/>Ah now I must first of all begin by confessing that I have very little time for reading for pleasure but when I do I get uh a lot of uh uh inspiration from reading I'm talking about during the last uh from nineteen eighty-five and I will tell you why from nineteen eighty-five any works that have to do with have anything to do with uh gender issues I've been very much interested whenever I have any leisure time now what happened in nineteen eighty-five was that January nineteen eighty-five uh I went to Britain to do my PhD and it was on uh women's issues I did a PhD on drama and uh the thesis was entitled and since then I have found that there is so much to find out about is I <./>can I haven't got of the root of the problem yah so any time I have free time I look at
<$B> Yes I also read I also read that yes or journals Yes journals One <-/>one problem we have here is that we do not get yes Works are not very accessible
<$B> Yes yeah It's very difficult It's a That's a very important but very difficult you know question because African women are having to deal with so many problems at the same time There is the basic problem of feeding the family educating the children and so forth So even when uh we address ourselves to the position of women here in Africa we do not isolate it from uh the position of uh women and children and the family and men and so forth So for me the hope really lies in uh everybody contributing that is men women and the children I'm not saying that each group will necessarily have to do the same as the other group no I'm saying that uh there is a lot that can be attained in terms of uh you know the success if men can also be won over into you know helping like the attitudes I was talking about in that paper I was doing for Those attitudes you cannot order people to change attitudes and yet it's so important for example for a man our men to change the attitude for example that a women is an object So there has to be a way in which we can also persuade them that it is beneficial to them as members of our society and as individuals as well and as fathers and so forth if the position of women can be changed so that she is no longer an object because if a woman is no longer an object I'm just taking this as an example if a woman is no longer an object it means she has greater dignity it means that uh even her output not just in material terms in terms of contributing towards the welfare of the children but even uh you know even her relationship to her man is much better than when she's regarded as a woman
<$B> Yes I would say education of the daughters is crucial and uh education in the right direction educating them uh to uh do away with stereotyped images but also let me add education of the boys is as important because if the boys grow up uh you know developing into the type of men who look down on women then however educated or however enlightened the girls are uh we won't get anywhere so it's education of both
<$B> Yes yeah I think economic independence uh for women is also very important uh What I find is that if a woman is economically dependent she is then reduced to a position where she can accept being trodden upon because you dare not question the authority if you depend on that authority but if you are economically independent then you have a say as to how you can be treated as to how the family should be treated as to how the general direction the society should take
<$B> Okay let me take that as a separate question after I have responded to this one uh Yes I would say that with educated women their opinions are more respected or there Was that the general question you were asking Yes uh a women who is more educated you know her ideas are more respected uh but she has had to work hard at it because there are still those attitudes for example at meetings that uh <-/>oh that one is just a woman she's just making noise So we've had not only to work very hard at concretising our ideas We also have had to gain some aggression so that if somebody tries to shout you down before you are finished you still continue
<$B> Now uh there is a change but I would say it's not uh a very positive one at the moment because we are in a transitional period where an educated woman like myself uh you are also uh you also have a responsibility to generate resources for the family You also have to contribute very much towards you know decisions So when you are doing that we are also operating on a situation where it has not become clear-cut Because the educated woman is different is operating differently in the sense that she is <-/>is that relations between educated women and you know their men their husbands uh they're made difficult by the fact that it's like there are two bulls in Do you know that kind of proverb yes and I'm not saying this in any negative kind of way but then it's not the fault of the woman It's not the fault of the man It's just that we're operating in a situation in a culture where the man is supposed to be the head and the woman the neck or there down and it is not possible for an educated woman to accept the position of the neck That's the way I see it
<$B> Yes in fact it is a bitter reality now that many uh successful women not just educated but also women who are uh you know successful business women uh it is a reality that there are many of them now in Kenya who are not married and are raising families as single women or divorced uh because you know the men either the men are uh <-/>are feel threatened too threatened to approach these women as you know wives or if they marry them uh again too much conflict There is that but I see that as a phase I don't see it as something that will be permanent I see it as a phase
<$B> I'm saying it's new because you know in the past we did not I'm talking about in traditional settings first of all we did not have divorces if we had divorces uh it would be the last resort and usually it would not be the woman divorcing a man It would be the woman being divorced because in the first place the man marries you So a woman would not divorce a man first of all because the <./>soci society did not allow it but also because a woman was uh dependent on the man and divorcing the man or leaving the man would mean you are also leaving your economic uh you know sustenance source yes Widows coming to widows <-/>widows there was inheritance of widows in many of our cultures Not that I'm saying that it was positive but it played its role then in the sense that then the family of the widow the children of the widow you know woman were looked after I'm not talking about in positive sense of course On the critical side of it as a woman I see it as one of the ways in which women were regarded as you know property yah so I'm saying it's a new thing now that divorced women or widowed women are being looked at as threats
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<$B> My first book is called That's my first book and uh this was my observation of uh the foreign missionaries Christians coming to convert Africans and may I say I was one of them because I lived in a church compound because my father was a priest So I had looked at this the way they <-/>they <-/>they I came to understand it later being educated being mature being travelled and also learned that the British Church or the western Church all of them including others beside uh Anglican were sort of mixing the Christianity with their culture They want your culture to They mix it the way they believed in their law for example I don't really mean it because I'm not brought up with it but for example the attitude of people who have two or three wives and they'll come and put it as a law because in their country it's not allowed So they come here and say if you are Christian you should have one wife Some become Christians when they are already have two wives what do you do with them So it is more of a confusion between the western civilisation western religion and African culture because how can I be an African and a Christian without interfering with some traditional uh <./>vo vows you have to go through to be recognized in your community and at the same time I'm now converted I'm a Christian How can you combine these There's a lot of confusion and very deep book although it's <./>no a bit dull perhaps because people like to read about love and exciting things but this is a very deep thing and some religious colleges use it because it is a conflict of western civilisation and Christianity which they bring to Africa and Africans are Africans anyway Some have a sense of some are very traditional you know and to be a good Christian sometimes you find you have to even break up from your community from your traditional custom to be a good Christian in the western kind of look including clothes decoration hairdos life social lives how we live in <-/>in the community the traditional ceremonies you have to go as an African to be recognized by your community Some are banned by the Christianity so there's the book and also it goes and goes and brings revolution of the young generation I was thinking of myself how I used to think this is very wrong when you find you're very lost within your community because you don't know how they live You don't know their tradition I've never been to a Kikuyu dance I know they dance but I've never watched their ceremony
<$B> I have travelled in Kenya and I mix with a lot of uh other women in Kenya who were brought up like myself by the first generation of uh of Christians and we were meeting in colleges and in high school and we know each other very well Therefore we know what I complain about I'll get somebody from Nyanza doing saying the same They are the same missionaries and whether they are Catholics or Anglican or Methodist or Protestant anything they are all they were all treated and faced it simply So it is more all round other tribes yes and I think it did quite a bit of a damage Mind you missionaries did a lot of good things I'm not saying that I'm still I'm a very good Christian but the thing is that they didn't understand the culture the meaning of it and uh they brought education That's why we are educated they brought They were really treating people who were sick They brought health in the community and education civilisation but that small bit of culture also did quite a bit of damaging in our society and you'll find people don't know where they stand Yes So this is what I was trying to say and I was educated by missionaries brought up in their church compound and I was a teacher in a <./>chur school church Therefore I know everything and the changes in the young generation who revoke their kind of father's belief Why is the villager doing this and not me Why can't I wear my braids in my hair like anybody else and why don't I wear big earrings you know this kind of thing and uh you find that they started to note that they are missing something
<$B> With me I write natural All I need is to keep quiet I don't even need to open my eyes I just do it like that It comes natural
<$B> Any time of the Not any time Sometimes you find that you are not with it but if I have uh a quiet atmosphere like now I'm in a writing mood I wrote quite a lot which has been being typed yesterday Sometimes if I am in a good atmosphere by that I mean not uh noisy not uh too much socialising I can write and I have many many many many things I would like to write but I have no time
<$B> First of all not to make money I don't think I was writing to make money I was just feeling that this is how I look at this I want to put it on a paper that somebody can see it Even when I started writing I didn't I wasn't writing to be a book but anything any incident I think of or hear I just sit down and write it down it's there without saying it's first page or not then I heap and heap and heap and later on somebody started talking about writing Then I said how I see incidents and I write He said he insisted he must see it I said no they are very rough He said you I want to see it I said you can't read it My handwriting when I'm emotional you can't even write read He insisted get somebody to type and I'll read it So I did it and when he did he assisted me and encouraged me to write
<$B> It's the way you are born the way you create it and the way you look at things I'm very good at drama also I'm a broadcaster and I'm good at drama and I look at things in that and writing is not uh training Mind you I never had a problem in the life because I was brought up not very rich but I never experienced poverty I never experienced any difficulties not that but it's the way you just look at life and the way your mind works That's how what I think
<$B> I write for other people I feel when I write it should be read that somebody else should look
<$B> No I was feeling this must be as I say I wasn't The first book I wasn't writing for other people to read
<$B> It's just Should I say recording you're just recording what you Do you know I even write sometimes on a traffic light I write because I put a notebook on in uh my driving side of my car and where I always put a pen Sometimes the other day I went There are a lot of little boys naughty boys here I was driving near the railway station and I saw a little boy who came and grabbed a handbag from somebody Police was there and they started chasing this boy and they can't catch the little boy and I stopped and I watched and I watched and I just sat there and I was just writing him and the way he was dressing and you know and I enjoy doing <./>tha like that I feel it can make a <-/>a very interesting little story and they didn't catch the boy He went and cut across cars and crossed the road and the police they are waiting for a car to pass and the boy has gone and I <./>fou found it a very interesting story where I'm concerned
<$B> That's historical
<$B> Yes and uh that in fact up to now is my favourite book because I felt it came from me Maybe I was too excited about my first published work and uh it's still my best book It doesn't go very much but it's my best best book It's slow
<$B> From me and I was very happy when I went to a college somewhere in America I can't remember which one just to find that it was in the library and I asked the <./>ol the person because there is they have a Department of Development Studies African Studies That's where it was and then I said do you have a religious group here I would like them to read that book because that shows the good work as well as the damage they did socially
<$B> No I'll tell you what this book First of all I'm a Kikuyu and I told you the kind of atmosphere I was brought up with I <./>haven I didn't participate at all at all in Mau Mau no because missionaries sent us They are white people They're religious people They can't tell lies They don't like people like that As my father put it they <-/>they are religious they are preachers they are converted they <./>they don't want people who will be asking or somebody taking a note and saying oh yes because they will disclose They were avoided Christianity In fact I learned most of them people who got into problems in the village ran away to the missionary centre to hide from the commotion of the <-/>the freedom and dangers of uh I don't know whether you have been in a place where people are fighting Guerrilla war is very bad because <./>arm armed forces fight you go where people are fighting but in guerrilla war you are caught in the market you know it is very very dangerous You'll be found at midnight I wasn't Mau Mau and this I only got the passport because I was in Nairobi I married uh I was married and you had to have these IDs
<$B> Yes but because I think it's natural that I'm very very much interested with people That's my nature I'm interested to know what people are doing how they are what they think and I spend a lot of time talking to even your leaders even prostitutes I talk to even here in Nairobi like the other day I was in Mombasa and I was having a lunch and I was <-_>I was<-/> uh there is one hotel which is very popular with even you find prostitutes hanging around and I they come and sit there and they drink also So I started talking to them and we had a talk of more than one hour with these prostitutes Why are you a prostitute and how does it feel to be selling yourself this kind I talk to anybody that's what I was trying to say and uh my husband is not a Kikuyu He's a Maasai and he was a doctor and sometimes we stay in a remote area We don't have much to do and people who are there even they hardly speak Swahili because they've never been exposed to the public when you are in the bush and believe it or not I'm not Maasai but I know more about Maasai than my husband because
<$B> I talk to them I talk to them and they come to my house They want to see a doctor I never stop them even if they shouldn't but they are uneducated they don't know the limit of how to <-/>to that you shouldn't interrupt a doctor in the house They come I may give gave them tea They like very a lot of sugar They like bread and jam and they all like me and we talk until I found myself speaking their language I didn't learn it
<$B> I just talked They can't speak Swahili so they say I learned to get to know what they are saying
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<$B> Uh I don't think there is any discrimination in the publishing houses as such I think the situation is simply that fewer women have been writing again for obvious reasons that probably I don't know what the situation is now but there have been less educated women because it is only very recently that we are beginning to see many many girls you know going to school In certain districts in this country you'll find there are more girls in school than boys at certain levels in the primary school although unhappily by the time you come to the end let's say to the end of uh Form Four or Form Six when we had it you found that it was the other way round the girls had dropped out again You know our problems as women but I think it's simply that we have been less women writing and even now we have less women writing I don't think we have a problem of education now All I think happens is that even those of us who want to write we find that we can hardly find time to sit to sit and write because of our other duties Even the educated woman is still not not that she still has her problems as a woman We haven't overcome many many many problems yes We still have a lot on our shoulders yes
<$B> I don't think so I don't think it's <-/>it's the individual husband who is against the woman writing It's just that we get tied up in everything we have to do the children the house and so on and it's worse for the educated Do you know that It's worse
<$B> For the educated woman <./>be because you Okay you would like to be here in the office for instance you would like to I would like to excel in this but I still have those traditional jobs
<$B> You know waiting for the children the same husband who is there He's just there
<$B> That's it So that's why I'm saying I think the educated woman is almost worse off
<$B> Because she has this extra job You'd like to be a career woman You'd like to do this You'd like to travel You would
<$B> Yes and we sometimes see it when we go out for some time and you <-/>you come back to the house and you find now it isn't running the way it normally runs you see There are always omissions here and there yes
<$B> Even where they try I mean even where they try you find they <-/>they may be well-intentioned and they would tell you I thought that would be impossible to find here I kept telling them to tell me what was <-_>what was<-/> missing in this house and you wonder why didn't he go to the small kitchen or to a store and look around and go to the supermarket himself instead of asking what is it like you don't have here You know that phase
<$B> Yah because they too were brought up that way yes
<$B> My mother-in-law for instance up to today I mean she <-/>she when she comes to our house she <-/>she doesn't want to see any one of my two sons coming from the direction of the kitchen and he will be confronted and say I have seen you twice going to the kitchen what are you going to do What <-/>what role have you there since when do the men begin to go to the kitchen you know like that So when you say now I expect this boy to do some work there or to go and make himself an egg if he's so if he wants
<$B> She says you people I don't know what kind of men you are going to produce and you understand that's how she brought up her sons and one of her sons happens to be my husband It will take some time
<$B> But it is an uphill battle
<$B> Because they also see but they also see you know the boys also see how we live in the house They see what papa does and what he doesn't do and so on and so forth So they will tend to you know
<$B> But they will certainly be different from him
<$B> Yes we <-/>we can if <-/>if we are not sensitized if we are not properly sensitized we can perpetuate you know this position and yet here I would like to say I'm not <./>sa I am I'm not saying I didn't want a woman to have some break to swap roles with him because I also would like to acknowledge the fact that there are many many many things that he does and I don't do you know for that family right I don't even think about them because it is there
<$B> Yeah and this is something that we sometimes forget that we also have our roles you know like
<$B> There are certain responsibilities I expect him to carry out you know
<$B> And I don't bother about and for that reason I enjoy freedom kind of freedom if you like For instance I mean I don't <-_>I don't<-/> sometimes I don't know how much he pays you know for bills I know they come and many a time I shall not even open them I leave him to see to it and when things break down in there I you know I see somebody coming and he says I was told to come by Prof essor so and so to repair this you see and uh that's if I want if I enjoy that if I like that he probably also likes it when I do something else and make sure I don't bother him with it and so on and so forth
<$B> You know I <-/>I get very shy when you <-/>you say I'm also writing because I've written so little I my writing kind of it means that intentional and I suppose my being an editor also hampers my writing You tend to <-/>to enjoy you know just you know criticizing other people's writing more than
<$B> Yah being productive yourself
<$B> But I hadn't thought of writing until <-/>until this project this nineteen eighty-nine project came up
<$B> This yeah the nineteen eighty-nine workshop where we did you know these books and since I was among the women that happened to know it again I was I told you I was doing some background work like I was counting the money and putting it in envelopes and so on and so forth I said why <-/>why don't I write here everybody seems to be writing I wrote and apparently the story was acceptable
<$B> I wrote at home but you know
<$B> For this special yeah for the workshop and then came the other one Again I said I'm going to write and I wrote and the story again was accepted which is going to be in the Longman book that we were talking about There <-/>There has been a workshop after that Kenya oral literature which I tried I started a story but I had to go to Tanzania so I did not complete it I hope I can still complete it but uh if I may talk about the writing that is intended in me I would certainly like to go into uh that a similar kind of writing about women There is something about women and children if you like that needs to be said you know many many things that need to be said The only thing I would <-_>I would<-/> like to say is that for me I think I would strike a middle <-_>a middle<-/> kind of course I do not see myself going all the way and just blasting the men and you know and so on and so forth They have their place in their lives you know with us I don't know if you people have husbands or not Do you okay both of you
<$B> Yes those of us with husbands I think they have a place in there I mean there are many many moments when we cannot imagine our lives without that man There are many moments when they are angels who suddenly uh I know there are many moments that my husband has been more than a husband He's been more of a friend than anything and I know he tries He tries I mean even with the children he tries <./>When Whenever he has time he wants to be with them because he doesn't have much time to be with them but when he has
<$B> He has been a professor at the university until about five years
<$B> And when he's sure that you're all laughing then he takes off Then he takes off These days he's away many times away from home in foreign countries Just now he's away in Mombasa but when he has that <./>opportun like on Sunday afternoons he wants to be with them and uh they also miss him so much that at such times they will not let him go you know and those are the times now I take off Usually I will just take off together with women or they will go and leave me at home and I'll relax So all I'm saying is that personally I <-/>I will not be that kind of person who says everything negative about men because they are not always negative I know they can be brutes but not <-/>not all of them Sometimes it depends on their age Sometimes they are wild and then they when they are recovered
<$B> They calm down and so on uh So that is what I would like to write about I mean just I would like to take the middle course and give credit where due but then still highlight I mean what remains of what we need to say about ourselves because I also realise as I was telling you the other day that when you talk to them and I realised it when <-/>when we produced this book Our Secret Lives you know men would read and say <-/>oh you mean these things happen Now I think there was this one who said I think we need to be more careful with our wives if we sometimes cause them so much pain you know something like that
<$B> Another one whose name I shall not uh mention who is a book he's a book consultant here was telling me he was in western Zambia He came from Zambia himself He was telling me of a time when his wife left for some three weeks and he <-/>he didn't know why she had left So after three weeks when he had found she was still not coming back and here he was with the children He went to her three weeks ago and he asked her Grace what happened why did you go and she said you know you've been like this and he was telling me you know it made me very sad I almost because I did not know that I was treating her like this I did not know
<$B> That I was causing her pain you know so he said I am very sorry I did not know I was causing you so much pain please come and I will be very very careful and in the future please just make sure you tell me when I cause you you know any pain
<$B> Yes there is a lack of communication
<$B> No yeah you know she shouldn't yes So the man thinks he's just being a man I mean behind the other men and so he doesn't know he's doing something So if she's quiet and many of them are willing They're willing to <-/>to maintain a peaceful atmosphere yes He was telling that to me as we sat outside the hall where the book fair was going on
<$B> Or women have not brought out I mean they are just suffering there in silence
<$B> Take that one for instance of communication While we fail ourselves to communicate and then we <-/>we think that our men are being you know I'm sure you can think of a situation where you are not open enough and uh you suffered you know you suffered a lot you see and from my experience I want to talk about things in fact I'm the one who talks about anything when it comes to it