S1B041K
<$A> Hello and welcome to the programme This is the fourth and final part on diabetes We'll continue discussing management of complications and Dr Jenga will start by telling us how they go about rehabilitating those patients whose complications are well set in
<$B> When the patients get affected or they come to us or later with eyes affected we have uh the unit of eye specialists who already actually have a method of uh treating this <./>neph uh retinapathy But the kind of treatment that is offered is also not curative it doesn't cure but it improves the sight So such patients still if they're already having problems we still advise them to come and see us because we can direct them <O/> to the right specialists and they can be given there the proper management end up with glasses once they have had operations and in fact not just for the retina being affected Some patients who are diabetic get cataracts very early and these can be removed very easily and the patient continues seeing
<$A> Yeah that's right <-/>mhm We looked at uh the causes of uh of diabetes last time in the last two episodes and uh one we want to know what part uh do the members of the family for example play in rehabilitating or helping this patient live to as near normal life as possible And whether uh that <O/> families I mean to say one you have one person in the family who is diabetic what concern should actually the family undertake
<$B> That's a very very good question Mr <name/> because uh it just reminded me of the National Diabetic Association They have a programme which is very interesting Every year they run diabetic camps and these diabetic camps it's not just the diabetics who attend We invite them with their relatives Because this way you educate the relatives If it is the child you educate the father the mother and if it is the father you educate the wife and the children about diabetes Because this way then they will know that this person doesn't have a very extraordinary disease It's a disease that we all can cope with And the kind of support that family gives that particular individual who is affected really determines his quality of life And then all we also we need to tell them also is that diabetes runs in families like we said the last time 
<$A> Yes yes
<$B> and there are some preventive measures the other members of families who are not affected that can actually adhere to <-/>to avoid uh getting diabetes Like let's say if you have two members of <-/>of two the husband and wife having diabetes chances of those three twenty-five per cent of the children getting diabetes are very high So what we tell them is that now that you know you have diabetes you have to actually modify the diet that is eaten by the whole family so that you don't start getting uh obese or overweight children 'Cause once they get become overweight the chances of them getting diabetes are very high and then you also tell them it's good to take the rest of the family for screening There is uh a method I told you the other day called <O/> test whereby you can screen all the members of that family and you will have a pointer saying you are likely maybe in times of stress of if you become pregnant or you undergo some form of infection you are you are likely to come up with diabetes If these things can be done early enough you are aware and you can have the measures we talked about Avoid sedentary life whereby you just sit Do some exercise Eat healthy diet Avoid too uh much carbohydrates And it's at that juncture that most of these patients can actually avoid or relatives can avoid refined sugars That way then you protect yourself
<$A> Well that brings us to the other question <-/>mhm What is a target group of this national diabetic association Do you take camps to schools for instance
<$B> <-/>mhm uh Well the uh what uh our chairman or our executive group has been doing and I <./>th is that they distribute these camps throughout the country and if they decide that this camp would be in Nairobi this year they just choose of a convenient point whereby most of the diabetics will be able to attend Last year it was in Nakuru the year before I think it was in Mombasa It has started even in Kisumu It's also going to be I think in Nyere You know when you have camps in towns we shall go during the holidays maybe uh request a school to give us the compound and maybe the <-/>the dormitories so that they stay there for a week They spend the night there They get we get guest lecturers doctors and maybe nutritionists health workers uh sociologists to come and talk to them public health workers So that once they uh they get all the aspects of diabetes and there we invite and as I told you we don't just invite diabetics themselves we invite even people like you who's interested in taking care educating diabetics You will be invited You can be sure you will be invited the next camp Then we have other people even politicians who may be interested or local leaders because these are the people who really facilitate the welfare of these patients And they have a lot of questions They want to know why is this thing so expensive and it's a life-time drug Why are these things not available in this and this And eventually with this kind of questions you know their needs you know their problems you understand their fears and you will be able to address them better now that they have educated you also
<$A> Okay Have you had one this year yet
<$B> Yeah there's been one just about two weeks ago in Mombasa but we are going to have one in Nairobi in the in fact I think maybe later this month or early November uh which we will call a Diabetic Awareness week where we hope to go out to the streets and maybe inform the public about diabetes 
<$A> So it is actually important now that any member of public who is interested can be on the look out 
<$B> Yeah They should
<$A> and attend these screenings 
<$B> Yes it will be it will be announced The National Diabetic Association executive chairman who has really been very active and he has really helped a lot of people
<$A> Right <-/>mhm Diabetes being a life-long condition uh disease for that matter I believe it has its own socio- and economic uh effects Let's look at the socio-effects The socio-effects or impact it has on the individual patient and his immediate family his job situation and of course his friends And how can we lift that up How can we lift the spirit up of these patients?
<$B> Yeah that is a very very important view of this diabetes because on the social aspect most of the patients the minute they get diabetes they kind of feel they are secluded They feel that you know the disease has been so stigmatised that you think oh my how unfortunate I am to have diabetes so you kind of try to keep off You don't attend social gathering because when you go there you're scared maybe they'll be eating one two three and I'm not allowed to eat that and I don't want to keep on explaining to everybody I'm diabetic I don't want to eat this So their social life is curtailed you know They no longer feel free and I don't think it's it's proper for any patient to feel that they can't go to a party because they are diabetics because if you all appreciated that diabetes is just like any other disease will accept these people and make them feel more comfortable At their place of work some people don't even tell their bosses that they are diabetics Some collapse in the office and nobody has any idea they're diabetics But I always tell them please tell your boss tell your next mate tell your best friend that you're diabetic because those are the people who will save you and it's nothing to be ashamed of 
<$A> Could it be due to the fact that they may fear that their employer might sack them 
<$B> That is one thing
<$A> And if at all that can happen could you please throw some word of advice to the employers themselves 
<$B> Well I think uh Mr Kariuki I would tell any employer what diabetic is that just because somebody has diabetes it does not really affect his output in his job So long as he comes for regular reviews and treatment and is managed well they should be no reason why he should not perform to his capacity like anybody else just like any other disease like hypertension We have so many hypertensive executives who are still working under medication so I cannot see why a diabetic should be uh should have any problems at his place of work because he has been uh kind of labelled that he is diabetic 
<$A> I see How about the economic aspect I what I have in mind is it's a long-term condition and the drug must be taken for as for that long I believe uh well they have there are financial constraints especially if they have to be taken for that long and I believe  
<$B> Yes it is very true but what I'm happy about the Ministry of Health is that they're now trying very hard to just make sure that most of these essential drugs which are taken on kind of a long time uh you know like in diabetes uh drugs for hypertension epilepsy they are being made available And I know that people have been fighting for such drugs actually to become even cheaper in the in the pharmacies What is left is for all of us whoever we are drug manufacturers policy makers We find ways that we can actually minimise the cost for these patients because these are life-supportive drugs They can't do without them and actually most of them cannot afford to buy that insulin all the time So when it is not available in the government hospitals quite a number of our patients do suffer and this is where I know the policy makers the Minister of Health has actually promised to look into so if that one works then I think we shall have gone a long way to support our diabetic patients
<$A> I see Let's look at uh some main some misunderstandings of diabetes 
<$B> <-/>mhm
<$A> One is that diabetes is a disease of the rich How <-/>how true is that 
<$B> That's not true 
<$A> It's not true
<$B> It is not true
<$A> Okay It is not a disease that is associated with witchcraft at all
<$B> Oh no there is no witchcraft to it and that's why there is no way a witchdoctor will heal or cure diabetes because it doesn't have anything to do with witchcraft No
<$A> And how much contribution does diet lead to uh having diabetes
<$B> Well if you are already predisposed genetically like we said the other time if you start eating a very heavy you know diet that weighs more towards carbohydrates then you are promoting your chances of uh getting diabetes You're improving them So what I could say is a diet is very important if you are already predisposed And then when you get diabetes diet becomes also a very major issue in that it's not that we keep on telling you Don't do it eat this don't do it eat this don't do the other What we say is that Eat the correct food We'll try and find out where it's available for you in the community or where you come from and just teach you how to balance it because we have all the necessary foods really you know in our own <ea/>shambas or within the market if you can afford and they're not very they're not anything extraordinary that this is only for diabetics 
S1B042K
<$A> Good evening and welcome to the Professional View This is a weekly programme in which we invite professionals to come and discuss their work with us and hence to enlighten us on that work particularly when it is work or a profession that has a bearing on the country's development Now Kenya has made tremendous progress in the field of education The biggest segment of our budget is spent on this important service to the nation but one area within this general field of education that has received comparatively little attention is the field of Special Education This is education for the minority amongst us who because of a certain impairment either of hearing of seeing or a mental impairment are not able to enter the standard pre-primary uh primary and secondary institutions in the country and therefore they need a special institution or unit or school where they can get the benefit of education So tonight we decided to focus on that special area within the field of education that is Special Education and we have invited to this studio of the Professional View experts who are going to enlighten us on the nature of the problems facing the impaired and their education and also to discuss with us what is being done by way of redressing the balance and giving the handicapped their due share of education and its benefits Let me introduce the four guests to you On my extreme left we have Mrs Catherine Abila Mrs Abila is the Director of the Kenya Institute of Special Education This institute will form the subject of much of our discussion tonight On my middle left is someone who is I'm sure familiar to regular viewers of the national television screen He's Mr Don Menya Mr Menya is a member of the Kenya Institute of Special Education Management Council and I said that he's a familiar face or figure in the nation because for many years he was chairman of the Kenya Society for the Disabled On my immediate right we have Mr <name/> Mwagiri Mr Mwagiri is the Director of Studies at the Institute which I shall call for short KISE Kenya Institute of Special Education Last but not least we have on my extreme right Mr Lawrence Kariuki and Mr Kariuki is the Head of Department for the Visually Handicapped Right Lady and Gentlemen let's begin with a bit of history As an historian I'm interested in how things have started Uh one gets the impression that the education of the disabled for many years particularly colonial days used to be run entirely by private organisations charity organisations and missionaries and so on and I think it's only since independence that the Kenya government has deliberately and consciously felt the need to be a participant Will you enlarge on this <ea/>Bwana Menya
<$B> Well when we got our independence we had a priority to educate the able-bodied children in Kenya to come and man the civil service and for those expatriates who are living so that was a priority of the government It was also a priority of the parents who wanted to educate their children so that they can get jobs eventually and help them the parents Consequently the education for the disabled was not a priority at that particular time because most of this was being carried out by voluntary organisations and church organisations So education for the deaf the physically handicapped the blind and the mentally handicapped was lagging behind But the awareness came at around the early eighties mostly when the President uh raised uh millions of shillings twenty-two millions to start with at Uhuru Park for the disabled and after the United Nations had <./>de declared that I think eighty-one was going to be the Year of the Disabled that awareness grew up and then parents and everybody else became aware and then eventually negotiations started with uh donor agencies to help find a place where we can train teachers for these various disabilities At that time they were being trained at various places like Highridge Teachers Training College Kamwenja and others But then when a donor agency came in which we're going to talk about later and a site was found at Kasarani to build Kenya Institute for Special Education And that is the time that the Legal Notice of 1986 was uh made by the government and the board was set and KISI that's when it started at that time to train among other things uh children uh teachers for various disabilities and also to train uh people who are going to man these technical skills and many other skills and also to train assessors who are going to go into the field to assess people with various disabilities and thereafter refer them to where they ought to be
<$A> Right We'll deal in detail with those aimed objectives of the institute but to <-/>to go back a little it it's estimated that or at least we're told by the World Health Organisation that something like ten per cent of the total population of any country has some handicap or the other Now that's quite a high figure Would you say that perhaps Mrs Mbila that Kenya's population that ten per cent is handicapped Is it more perhaps than that or less
<$C> Mr Chairman I think in the absence of the actual statistics and figures we continue to use those figures that are used by the World Health Organisation and therefore we can assume that uh the ten per cent that uh is quoted applies in this country However it's also important to know that there have been quite a lot of deliberate efforts to do research A census was carried out to determine the number of disabilities that are there during the last census We now have assessment centres which have been established throughout the country and in each district there is an assessment centre and sub-centres which can identify the number of uh disabled persons that we have And particularly the children who have been benefiting from this programme So it is still true to say that out of those assessment centres and out of the researches that have been conducted and out of the census uh results that we have had the number is extremely large and that is why this uh institute uh is there to look at the various needs and particularly the training of manpower to man some of the programmes which have already been established in the country
<$A> Okay That's to come the discussion of the centre Now but in order to really appreciate the important role the centre is playing it would be I think interesting <ea/>Bwana Mwagiri to know something about the shortcomings of the various schools and units where these disabled children are taught In other words the institute is there to in many ways rectify some of the shortcomings of these schools and units So in your estimation quantitatively and qualitatively uh what is wrong with these present units and schools What are their shortcomings Apart from the fact that they tend to be largely in towns so that the rural areas don't seem to benefit much
<$D> Thank you Mr Chairman I think the biggest problem that a lot of our schools and units are facing is the aspect of uh personnel There aren't enough uh teachers trained or specialised uh to teach in those schools and units Uh In the recent say two year in the last two years a lot of units have been opened throughout the country particularly in the area uh the mentally handicapped And the teachers are not there in fact some districts have been forced to start schools or units with uh somebody who has no training at all So there is a great need to train uh a lot of manpower to man these schools and units that are scattered all over the country
<$A> Okay So that is one <./>maj yes that's one major shortcoming Let's have uh then we'll come back to you <ea/>Bwana Menya Do you know any other shortcomings <ea/>Bwana Kariuki
<$E> I think what he has explained is uh quite valid especially in the <./>educ education for the blind but uh much so it's a fact that most of our schools are residential and the children have to come from their homes sometimes very far to <-/>to these schools and to start a residential school for the blind for example takes a lot of money and as students are increasingly being identified we are finding that we don't have uh enough of such residential schools and there's need to have more units to cater for children in their home environment where they can be with their parents and benefit from peer group and their local environment
<$A> Yes <ea/>Bwana Menya you wanted to add more to
<$B> Yes the problem of with the units as we have them now is that we have a unit in a primary school maybe one classroom And that one classroom that child will be there in that classroom this year and again the following year and the following year without being upgraded to say Grade one two three four as the others Children in the same school where there's integration move in eight-four-four up till they do their examinations So this child continues to be in the same classroom year in year out and there is no opening So uh the plan I have now should be to see how to upgrade these children this unit so that they can branch out into rehabilitation workshops and sheltered workshops so that they can be seen to be progressing that the parents see them progressing beyond going into one class and they ask you your child is still in the same class it was 
<$A> It is demoralising to the child and the parents
<$B> It's demoralising Then it is also a factor of uh parents are still particularly of the mentally handicapped of the stigma of their children being exposed as being disabled and handicapped and they don't bring their children to assessment centres And also there's a lot of cultural barrier in certain areas of <-/>of Kenya where the handicapping conditions are looked down upon very seriously and I view this throughout Africa where I have been attending meetings that some areas people just don't want to talk about mentally handicapped I can tell you that in Kenya luckily we have several units nearly a hundred now but in our neighbouring countries there are some that have no unit or no school at all But Kenya is leading and I hope that the progress we're making now will just improve on what we have and uh try to sort out the shortcomings
<$C> I think uh Mr Chairman can I add it is important for the viewers to understand that these units are there to encourage integration That is a main purpose so they will vary from one discipline to the other In the area of mental handicap what Menya has said it is true that we need to look beyond that one classroom and encourage a lot of other rehabilitation programmes that can make them effectively become integrated into the programmes Those who can achieve academic as well as social integration obviously they will move to another class but because of lack of special schools that can accommodate the severe handicapped mentally handicapped children should be taken to a residential school where they can benefit and move on to a sheltered workshop We have uh integration programmes for the visually handicapped which have been very successful They are only withdrawn into one classroom for you know uh additional support and help but they move from one class to the other with the other children and that is a very commendable area in terms of integration and their achievement
<$A> Is it because the visual impairment is comparatively easy to overcome than say the other impairments
<$C> Yeah we are now talking about the mental ability The mentally handicapped child has got problems with some problems with mental ability and the child may suffer from other learning disability problems whereas if you have a visually handicapped child who has no other complications other than the vision then definitely his mental ability is capable of handling the academic work
<$A> So it's easier for him to integrate
<$C> Yes it's easier for him to integrate
<$A> Yes
S1B043K
<$A> We have invited the director of Riuku Cultural Centre Dr Kinuthia Njoroge to come and talk to us about this interesting subject Welcome <ea/>Daktari
<$B> <ea_>Asantesana <ea/>
<$A> We would like you to start us off by telling us as somebody suggested just a few minutes ago Riuku Centre used to be famous several or some years ago When was it started and why was it started and how far has it gone to achieving its objectives
<$B> Riuku Centre was first started in nineteen seventy-one by my late father who died in nineteen eighty-five and I took over for him in nineteen eighty-five and you probably know in nineteen eighty-six eighty-seven it was very very famous and unfortunately I got sick around ninety eighty-nine and I had to go for treatment in America but it was not actually sickness it was a matter of uh a connection between the traditional medicineman and the modernity was working whereby I was crowned as a traditional medicineman You can probably see some of the things that I'm having these items This item here is to symbolise the founder of our nation Taifa Baba Taifa you say Jomo Kenyatta This one is our present leader Honourable arap Moi Now this one <-_>this one<-/> is to say this one continues that is peace and tranquillity and development in the country in times of the cultural dissemination and also cultural promotion And Riuku Cultural Centre was set up basically for these to promote and disseminate African culture Now some of the aspirations is to set up a cultural centre at Land of Majito to cover the Luhya and the Luo culture
<$A> That was your father's idea or your
<$B> That was my father's idea In fact my father came to America to get me in nineteen seventy-one to come back here because after finishing my Masters I was very much involved with the Afro-American Centre So when I came back I told him we could start a similar centre here in Kenya to cater to the people of the African descent both from the American and also the people of African descent in this country whether they are Kenyans, Tanzanians, Zairians or even/ if they are Ethiopians so they can learn about our culture Now the aspiration of setting up uh one in Land of Majito or one in Digoland to cover the Giriama and the Digo or one in Akambaland uh around Kituye to cover the north-eastern people the Akamba and the north-eastern groups the uh <-/>the uh say uh the <-/>the Trokana the <O/> people and the <O/> actually to depict the Kikuyu and the Maasai The Kikuyus and the Maasai are very very close people as you probably know In fact the Kikuyu were dressed in the same way as the Maasai in the past
<$A> How long ago was that
<$B> That was only a hundred years ago hundred years ago and as you probably know the Maasai the name of Nairobi is a Maasai word meaning water and you can see the closeness of the Maasai land and the Kikuyu land You can see the closeness of the Kamba to the Kikuyu people The Kikuyu Embu and Meru people are one and the same If you take the Kalenjins and also the Meru have but one culture If you take the Miji Kenda are one cultural group
<$A> Maybe during your studies you 
<$B> in America
<$A> Yes you undertook research to find the similarities between the Maasais in the southern part of Kenya and the Samburu and the Pokot in the north-west part of Kenya What is their relationship
<$B> I would like to correct you there a little bit The research was done here for the last twenty years It was done actually for fifteen years in the country When I came back as a Research Fellow at the University of Nairobi and also later on joined East African Airways the community you know the defunct community as international <O/> manager I was still very much interested in the ethnic cultural exchange between the different tribes of Kenya And still it was boiling in my head and still when my father started African cultural safaris at Hilton Hotel in Nairobi here to cater to the tourists to take them to the countryside to see the Maasai land in Ngong area around the Rift Valley to see the Kikuyland around the Central Rift uh Central Province to see the Wakamba around Kitui and the Kitui Hills which is very very rich These tours were conducted mainly for the tourists Later on we found even the schoolchildren are very much interested in this So when we set up Riuku Cultural Centre we started with oral narratives storytellers These are elderly people And this we have also approached the Minister of Culture and social services to make sure that if they can afford to give us a grant we can make it free for the school children who are leaders of tomorrow from Monday through Saturday and Sunday But now it is only free on Saturday and Sunday because we cannot afford to have it free for all the time For Kenya residents whether they are Asians or Europeans as long as they are Kenya residents they can come to the Riuku Cultural Centre from ten a m to ten p m We have shows at ten a m twelve p m and uh also four p m and eight p m If you come for the show at twelve p m and eight p m you have also to participate in what we call culinary acts Culinary acts is the different foods health foods health foods which are not affected by chemicals Say, <ea/>njahi if you compare <ea/>njahi and chips
<$A> The traditional food
<$B> The traditional food If you compare <ea/>njahi and chips there is no comparison because chips are just carbohydrates Now if you have <ea/>njahi it's almost like meat and it stays very long in the stomach If you have <ea/_>Mucheyu wamuiku<ea/> it is also very good Now instead of having something like <ea/>chai or coffee if you have soup you have <ea/>muteta is better because it's good for the bones You get that point
<$A> Doctor
<$B> Now wait a minute now doctors talk a lot now if you have
<$A> But you have to go together We have to give us that we have to meet in a minute somewhere
<$C> Now what I was wondering Doctor is the role of culture in development because you find that the path towards which we are moving is a path of development as defined by the current you know the trends to which we're moving and that if culture will kind of drag us back to where we came from I don't know how you can how <-/>how you draw the line that divides culture and development as we are moving forwards
<$B> Now that is a very good question You cannot separate culture and development because culture is the basis of our soul Take the particular instruments here called Gishandi Here you can find the roads of the travellers you can find houses of the men and houses of the women Music is a source of our soul and unless the people in Kenya understand music their traditions they cannot be able to develop because when the white men came in the country the colonists they tried to decolonize our minds so that you can follow their culture That's why you find I'm so very very happy and very grateful for the present president to make it a part of the eight four four programme whereby each and every student whether they are at the age of seven they are taking what you call oral literature and in our programme we have got oral performance and me myself I participate in what you call poetry or <ea/>marimeta in Gachaggi and it goes like this Take that particular song It says that I belong to Agashiku and my <ea/>muhiriga or my village all my clan is Bantonya And my <ea/>riga itself my circumcision is Mwangi And my father is called Maina I know my roots We must teach our students our <-/>our children to know our roots Because if you are rootless then you don't know where you're going
<$C> My point of argument <ea/>Daktari is that uh we learn these things and students will continue to be taught oral literature or whatever by somebody by their teachers I happen to have been a student of oral literature at one time but I don't <-_>I don't<-/> see how it is contributing towards anything in towards my life People will be taught students will be taught but you don't understand 
<$B> You don't see it the right way But you see the song the music is a source of <O/> how you stand as a person how you behave in society whether you become a thief whether you become a nation-builder you understand <-/>huh The upbringing itself the roots the roots how your mother brings you how your grandmother brought you this is a source this is a source 
<$?> But when it comes to that as you know Dr Njoroge most of those people they're storytellers they are people okay they can do it they can compose songs without even going to a musical school 
<$B> That's right
<$?> or musical class and these people are we can say most of them they are aged
<$B> That's right
<$?> How can we get you know teachers you know who will be teaching this wealth cultural wealth to the young generation
<$?> The issue of 
<$?> Now let me answer you Njoroge Ph D I was not born <-_>I was not born<-/> <-_>I was not born<-/> a musician but I spent time with Karanje Wanduta who is <O/> I spent time with <name/> I spent time with uh <name/> from these are singers
<$?> traditional singers
<$?> traditional singers and from being with them eating with them with them <O/> with them like this <-/>huh <-/>huh pulling hairs like this with them I learned the act you see for our teachers if they are interested and they are devoted to culture if they feel it in their heart they can also become <O/> and they can continue their <O/> Now the other way we can continue for posterity's sake is by having these people filmed like I'm filmed and you can have a regional <O/> here <O/> which <O/> You can have a video cassette to the schools high schools and colleges you understand So that the schools can have these as apart of their programme Because the audience I'm speaking to some people would like to hear me but they are in the bars There are some students who are probably having their dinner now but would like to hear Dr Njoroge and what he has to say But if there is a video cassette for these things then the mass <O/> would be okay if it's possible for you to visit the Riuki Cultural Centre so that when we talk these things you can have a background of these things women pounding maize making the traditional the these things you make the fire You see
<$C> In other words they can see a Kenyan or an African the way he used to live
<$B> That's right And also to see his contribution in the modern technology the traditional technology
<$C> And then you know it's important to have all these things but then since you interacted with those traditional story-tellers or composers
<$B> And artists
<$C> And artists Whatever you call them
From your experience what was motivating them to compose songs or even to read poetry
<$B> The thing that was motivating them is to put value systems strong enough so that our nation can be able to stand for posterity's sake so that we can stand up and say that we are a nation we are Kenyans we are not British we are not Americans You get my point You see Because we have got a soul we have got our roots we have got our culture
<$A> Now Doctor you have <-/>have been to be in the United States of America for a long time
<$B> Sixteen years 
S1B044K
<$A> uh the issue was that the world was polarised into two between uh on the one hand countries of the socialist world led by the Soviet Union and on the other Western uh countries led by the United States of America Uh the idea was that these countries needed economic assistance from both East and the West because they were poor and therefore they must not be seen aligned with either of the two major military blocks the NATO and the Warsaw Pact and if uh these countries had a relationship with either of the two super powers uh the relationship must not involve for example if they were in a military organisation a regional one must not involve a confrontation with another third power
<$B> Dr Musonik uh that may be so but you realise also that uh critics have described the non-aligned movement as a movement of two blind people trying to lead each other I mean they have no budgets they have no programme of action They have no means of enforcing their decisions uh What is the actual <./>just justification of this movement then you know and <-/>and now that uh you know the politics within which they were operating the bipolar politics are now no more uh how we justify the existence of a non-aligned movement
<$A> Yah you must first note that it is indeed true to say uh it has no permanent structure uh or uh no headquarters for example You have rightly pointed out that it has no budget of its own uh but having said that you must realise that it has been addressing major issues one uh in the conferences of aids of states and government uh which take place now more or less on a regular basis every three years since nineteen seventy Secondly in the conferences of the ministers which take place even more frequently every one and a half years or so Thirdly within the frame of the United Nations uh where there is a group of the non-aligned countries that meets always on the eve of the opening of the general assembly of the United Nations and that there are also specialised agencies of the non-aligned movement uh suggests uh <./>the there is a an specialised agency on questions of economics which aligns it together with organisations like uh UNCTAD and within the frame of the struggle for the new international economic order So it is true that uh it doesn't function in the same manner as the United Nations but this is to be expected because the membership is heterogeneous in the extreme
<$C> How do people who are poor uh people who are by and large dependent you know on aid for their own development become non-aligned Were these guys ever non-aligned
<$A> Yes uh they were non-aligned in the sense uh that I'm described in the sense of not belonging to the military blocks and secondly they were non-aligned actually in the sense of trying to move away from being aligned to the former colonial powers that was the understanding of non-alignment
<$B> yeah but with you must realise here that the organisation has been in existence for thirty-one years now if I'm right Now that's a long time in the lifetime of an organisation uh What <-/>what <-/>what would you say the movement will be remembered for after all those thirty-one years
<$C> Tangible achievements
<$A> First the movement will be remembered in the struggle for national liberation You must remember the year nineteen sixty is called the year of Africa but in many respects the majority of the African territories were colonial Uh there has been colonial domination of other areas of the world during this time Now thirty years later many of those countries are independent We can't always attribute this to the non-aligned movement It's uh <-/>it's a change actually in many ways but the question of the liberation movement and the liberation struggle is very important That is why for many years for example uh besides the independent countries being members there were also liberation movements that were members of the non-aligned movement including SWAPO of Namibia and the PLO uh of <-/>of Palestine the Palestinian Liberation Organisation So that's the first area the liberation struggle and secondly the general uh struggle for peace universally uh to ensure the survival of humanity uh in the uh before the nuclear danger which has now began to subside but only in the last few years uh Then there has been the general struggle on the economic front which so far hasn't been very successful but the issues have been identified and that was why there was a call for the new international economic order for example and then uh there has been the struggle against domination in other fields including in the field of ideology in the field of culture and so on Uh that was embodied in the call for example for a new international information order Uh the non-aligned movement was involved in all these struggles 
<$?> but uh maybe uh to <./>inter to interject on uh some of these uh order some of these calls or agendas that are developed over time we notice that issues like the new economic order the new international information order and all that were actually muzzled uh in almost nipped in the bud by withdrawal of financing for projects that used to be funded through UN agencies so in that case don't we see that uh even though they could have come up with very tangible very useful agendas that actually they were too unable actually to deliver
<$A> yeah I mean that it is it is important that these issues be identified It's important that they be addressed The fact that there continues to be domination and especially from one major power in the world today does not mean that the agenda will not be made to address and identify decisions I think that is the most important thing
$C/D: Now given that we uh can no longer take a middle road because there is no communism or there is no eastern block uh there is no uh Okay there is the west but it is a uni-polar world now uh where are we going to stand still maintain that middle road What are we going to do now
<$A> in fact now more than ever there is a need for the non-aligned movement meaning that we are not allied to the dominant uni-polar power that we have in mind uh because it has become clear uh with the collapse of the Soviet Union and especially the Eastern world in general except for one or two countries now that the issues that the non-aligned movement sought to address from the beginning have become even acute that is the struggle against domination the struggle against hegemonism on the part of uh super-powers the struggle against dictation or dictatorship if you like uh Second the importance of the non-aligned movement lies precisely in the understanding that these countries constitute the majority of the world and that if they were to co-operate among themselves they could do much better than they have been doing in the past so that the call for the so-called north-south uh dialogue becomes even more acute now because all the countries of the north are really in one camp today
<$B> Dr Musonik uh just a follow-up on that question uh we realise that the issues right now facing the world have <-/>have to do with economics Uh most parts of the worlds most regions of the world are moving towards more economic regionalization and us here in the Third World we are stuck with uh issues such as debt crisis you know commodity price fluctuations poverty and <./>men and mental degradation We have started programmes like south-south-co-operation but in fact they don't work unless there's uh a substantial amount of goodwill from the from the west and you know and all these things Don't we think perhaps it's time the you know the members of the non-aligned movement should shift the agenda from the political side more to the economics
<$A> yah and in fact that is precisely the agenda now because for example we mentioned the liberation struggle and it is very clear that as far as Africa is concerned that is almost a closed chapter and the same is true of many other parts of the world uh It is true that it is economic issues that are paramount and that is why the suggestion made by our president when he was in Jakarta that we must uh uh create a permanent mechanism a permanent structure for uh trying to resolve these problems uh becomes very relevant and the problems are the problems with poverty problems of economics therefore but there are also the problems of conflicts which are taking place they are becoming even more acute now than before
<$C> the as the US is the dominant power uh on the globe right now do we not you know run the danger of coming into conflict with it every now and then uh especially because there is a fear that uh uh Washington might want to be you know the global policeman Do we have uh resources and the will to take on Washington say no wait a minute we do not want this
<$A> yah we <-/>we must we must not accept you know uh domination as a matter of principle and there is no reason for this kind of pessimism just uh because if the United States for example is the major the only power right now and I think the situation in many ways was even worse during colonial times when the people of one colonial territory were under an imperial power that was extremely powerful Uh having said that it is true to say that the United States is extremely powerful and the only way to cope with it even approximately or remotely is precisely the way of collective action and that is what the non-aligned movement's about
<$C> now uh that's very interesting because uh one of course the dollar is almost the currency of the world now and uh when we want to discuss uh uh economic co-operation let's say between Mali and uh Somalia I mean we are really talking in terms of the dollar and therefore the our reference point is still that same policeman of the world Uh don't you think that uh perhaps a different approach or even uh an acceptance uh that really uh it'll continue forever to be an ideal that <./>ma must not be realised to say that this is possible for these poor too many poor countries to uh to mobilise their uh collective action together
<$A> uh it seems to be sometimes we have a problem of lack of imagination uh Why must we use the dollar for example in exchange between Kenya and Mali Why didn't we exchange our commodities directly I'm not an economist but there is such a possibility I need I think we need a more imaginative approach
<$B> Now uh I'm not so sure that uh the non-aligned movement has played a substantial a substantive role in solving conflicts among warring uh fractions or uh internal fractions within member countries uh Africa has is just now emerging from uh several decades of internal <-_strifes><+_strife> and presently in Angola and Mozambique we are seeing now movement towards peace and in Indochina also we are seeing this movement and I'm not so sure that uh you know non-aligned movement has <-/>has played this role It has more often left the role to the United Nations you know to bring about peace in these areas uh in <-/>in its manifesto Is there <-_>is there<-/> any clause you know whereby it <-/>it <-/>it is a it <-/>it gives itself a role to play in solving in the solving conflicts among the various warring fractions in member countries 
<$A> uh I think we pointed out already that it actually does not have a charter so there is no place we can read uh which says that it should play that kind of role But uh even the United Nations as a body if it were to play this role uh it would play the role influenced by certain forces within it uh We have said already that the non-aligned countries constitute the majority of the members of the United Nations If uh they were given the opportunity to do this and part uh one of their calls they made in Jakarta was the veto-power of the five permanent members of the Security Council should be removed because it is unfair to the majority of humanity  
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<$A> as a result of the general uh development throughout the world computers coming together with telecommunications uh a new type of services are now beginning to appear on the horizon We are aware that for some we now have extensive use of faxing service here Previously this service wasn't available And in fact we are at the moment market-driven because the demand for that kind of service is <-/>is there Therefore people want to use them they want to <-/>to be modern
<$B> But surely information is a very sensitive area How would you ensure that uh supposing I wanted <-_>I wanted<-/> to talk uh <-_>to talk<-/> to somebody in Mombassa how do you ensure that the destination of my information it's ensured and whatever secrets I may want to pass on are not heard by somebody else
<$A> Yes uh there is uh what we provide is generally secure type of facility Just like for example when you said of your telephone call between say Nairobi and Mombassa uh you get access to your call customer and you can communicate Similarly what we have with the Kenfax System is that there will be what we call handshaking arrangements which provide what we call security checks uh so that you <-/>you know that you have actually accessed the right point So all this has been built and uh we are building on uh experience of quite a number of other people
<$C> But maybe uh just to add on that Mr Chemai I think uh when once in a while you may dial uh your number and then your finger slips and uh will touch a wrong button Now in this case uh I might press the wrong button and I access uh some sensitive uh data somewhere that should actually uh be supposedly uh limited in terms of circulation How do you ensure that there's no tapping because that's a possibility
<$A> That's a very good question What happens is any database throughout the world uh be it in the UK US or anywhere if a subscriber entered into that database the first thing that you you'd be required to <-/>to provide is your own secret code which would be known to you individually because you are a subscriber to that database You will therefore be asked by the <-/>the host computer Who are you And you will have to insert your code You say I'm so and so and so And once the computer recognises you're talking now of the receiving computer and not the computer communicating Once it's recognised that that secret code then the receiving computer will allow you to access its memory or its database Now if for example a <-/>a stray call is coming in then that that stray call will not have that access code that you <O/> enter into that database And these are all built in uh so as to protect the databases
<$D> A <-/>a <-/>a fundamental question to Mr Omondi I do not uh really it comes to we <-/>we <-/>we have this query you know in new services like this do you have to lay uh new lines for that communication or do you use already existing cables
<$C> What we do we integrate we look into what is already existing We ask ourselves on what is already existing can we enhance it to incorporate the new service If we can we do If we cannot then we say to ourselves what more do we need in order that a new service can be laid and then we do that
<$B> Mr Omondi
<$C> Yeah
<$B> I think it's very apparent that this is not really a very new service What you already use like maybe the use of telegrams or maybe is it telegrams or telegraphs or maybe the computers In <-/>in fact you can improve on them and get the same thing uh the same <-_>the same<-/> <-_>the same<-/> success that you <-/>you expect to get from these So why don't you improve on what you already have rather than go and launch a new service which end up having <O/> and make <-/>make the organisation have so many <-_service><+_services> which may not be as efficient as they would be had it been only one type of service
<$C> Uh we in KPTC we are the servants of the people We are not masters What we do is what the people wants us to do So the <-/>the Kenyan population plus the world demands at this point in time that we introduce Kenya packet switching service And in fact the demand for it the pressure the need the benefit that it's going to do to us is such that had we been able to do it earlier we would have Therefore Kenya packet switching system is not going to introduce any inefficiency in us at all To the contrary it is going to relieve us of the burden of what we used to have of processing point to point things which are inefficient and very expensive and people are complaining to give us a cost-effective efficient service that is going to help very much
<$B> But you see even when you want this speed post service for instance you know you promise a lot of efficiency a lot of everything but today send a packet it takes so many days to reach if it ever reaches that is so really people may not welcome even this new service as they would because already what you have launched before hasn't lived to their expectation So really how are you dispersing this fear in them
<$B> So what have you done that wasn't there that made the other services fail or not live to the expectations What have you improved on could you just give an outline
<$C> I am not accepting there is an assumption there that our services are inefficient that they are not working how will Kenfax work You know that is the query I'm not accepting that our services are inefficient The mere fact that at this point in time in our development the mere fact that we may not have achieved one hundred per cent efficiency wouldn't be correct criteria for saying our services have not been efficient So it is rather very difficult for me to answer what have we done to Kenfax which will we make it efficient when all our services are inefficient 
<$D> I <-/>I <-/>I <-/>I learn that uh there is another uh development uh there is another new service that is being introduced uh before I query uh I <-/>I don't like boasting about the uh this other service uh called mobile telephone uh maybe I would just throw uh I put forward a question about uh I think I read someplace that uh some crooks actually used uh this transfer system Uh someplace it will transfer funds uh in some banks So maybe you if <-/>if you may you may choose to respond you may not choose to respond But uh if <-/>if uh I gathered that information and uh one <-/>one <-/>one begins to think about uh those possibilities People hear all these wizards uh going around with uh codes But uh my query is about the mobile telephone for now I think one may be hearing that uh KPTC is coming up with the mobile telephone Uh What's the technology behind it and when does it come into operation I think Mr Chemai that you might uh address yourself to that
<$A> You <-/>you asked two questions 
<$D> Yes
<$A> First of all the fraudulent transfer of funds uh You know we live in an environment which is fairly common throughout the world There are crooks There are people who are <-/unsocial> They'll use anything They'll either use the electronic means to transfer funds They'll forge a cheque They will even print money So this is the society that we live in and every technology tries to circumvent and to quit this Kenfax itself is a service that facilitates the transfer of information PNT is not in the business of securing uh funds and transfer funds That is left to the owner of the banking institution that runs the banks here Now uh coming to this question of the mobile service The mobile service yes is a service that we have uh we're in the process of launching The equipment is already within the country and shortly installation will commence uh We expect this service to be introduced next early next year uh The It's a service which will cater for a again special group within the community people who do not want to be out of telephone contact at any one time We have businessmen who when they are travelling between Nairobi to Mombassa they want to know what is happening in their factory they want to have to know what is happening they want to prepare meetings and so on That is going to cater for those people
<$B>communication <O/> to the introducing time for local codes How is this going to work and why was it not done before
<$A> Uh the reason why it was not there before In order to do uh accurate timing you need proper equipment And in the past the type of exchanges that we had were not very suitable for carrying out automatically the local call timing As technology improved and as we have improved in our network very much we then have on a widespread basis excellent equipment that can be able to do this job and the <-/>the reason why it needs to be done is to allow proper use of the facilities that we have so that everybody can be able to use The public has been telling us look why don't you do something about this local call Why do you allow it to be one metre pulse for the whole day and if you can misuse the equipment which we don't need and others then cannot get to them why don't you do it in a manner that people can pay for only what they need which will be in multiples of every three minutes So the reason for doing it is efficiency in the use of a network and it is going to result in uh more people being able to get their calls through
<$B> Mr Omondi don't you think it's just another way of the post office trying to get more money
<$C> No The aim of the post office has never been at any point in time to get more money No The aim of the post office has always been to provide services as efficiently as possible and as economically as possible That has always been the aim of a post office
<$D> But uh the uh for this local uh call timing uh will definitely resulting in <-/>in the uh uh the consumer or the client paying a little bit more uh definitely
<$C> What will happen is the <-/>the consumer first of all will use only the time that he needs to use and pay for that time There is nothing like paying a little more You're just using the time you need using it as well as you would and paying for it For example the local calls from Nairobi to Nairobi What would happen is as it's supposed to be When you're going to communicate in a phone you have to think of what you are going to communicate and communicate it And when you finish communicating it you put down your receiver so that other people can use it but this is heavily influenced by what you are going to pay If you are going to pay one metre pulse for one day then it encourages you to hold onto the lines and other people are screaming So there is no paying little more It is paying for what you are using
<$B> But in this case the consumer knows what he wants or she wants If really I'm going to make a call I don't want to go and say and how long I'm going to take and if I've been doing that even with one <-/>one shilling and fifty cents for the whole day really it means then there wasn't there was nothing much I was going to do on that day 
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<$A> There are people who have blamed the police department for issuing licences to people whom are not <./>comp uh are not uh <-_>are not<-/> competent in driving And uh they say this is one reason as to why the accidents Can you tell us uh how one gets a licence through what procedure and what else he goes
<$B> Yes according to the procedures held when one wants a driving licence he must have attained an age of eighteen years and above And he should have his eyes proper and he should have ears proper should have physical fit body physical fit So if one wants to get this licence this first of all he must have those qualities and then he should also attend school uh driving-schools to get knowledge of how he can be able to drive When he attends or he finishes those lessons as the subject he is going to take then he can apply to be tested at our headquarters uh <?/>Oraka But there is no way one can obtain a driving licence if he does not qualify for all those things I've mentioned
<$A> And uh during that test what aspects do you look into
<$B> Yes if one goes for testing first of all he should be aware of all road signs including rules He should be able to <-/>to show that he knows how to drive the vehicle itself If he doesn't know how to drive or driving uh vehicle <O/> he'll fail Now from the view of he himself or herself will say oh I failed it because uh they're not uh <-_>they're not<-/> really letting me to pass this exam but it's due to his own fault or her own fault otherwise he should have all qualities before he passes the exam
<$A> And uh when you test a person for the PSV licence what aspects do you check because I believe when carrying passengers you should really emphasise the importance of knowing how to drive very well
<$B> At the moment uh one must have attained uh an experience of four and above an experience four years and above At the same time he should be clean in his record He is not to have been charged for causing death or having committed a serious offence Then before he is given that PSV uh uh licence he should also produce a certificate of good conduct and then from that point uh he'll be considered 
<$A> If I learnt physics thirty years ago and definitely I want to carry out a project which I'll need my physics I have to go for a refresher course For someone who has learnt driving thirty years ago he'll need a refresher course Do you have do you examine some of the drivers after some time to see that they are still competent
<$B> No it's <?/>only if somebody is holding an international driving licence when he was somewhere in abroad and he wants to get a Kenya driving licence he can apply the same methods done and then he can be re-tested From that point he can be issued with the driving licence for this country
<$A> There are some places where drivers are not supposed to hoot especially near hospitals But you find that some of the drivers ignore this What action do you take
<$B> Surely this does show a place our police have searched in every corner If uh a place where there is a sign showing that a driver is not supposed to hoot you'll find our police officers actively perform their duties there And other places like uh well you've mentioned hostels schools and all other places specified by the authority where hooting is not allowed you'll find our police officers there performing their duties
<$A> Recently there have been complaints in newspapers that some of the things which you will find in <ea/>matatus like the music systems they're really a bother to the passengers Has any action been taken to see that the music is really out because the rule was there but then it seems it has been forgotten
<$B> Now surely I've been very much active on this issue Well the music system which uh <-_equipments<>+_equipment> fitted in these <ea/>matatus are causing a lot of hazards You know if the music <O/>is on and the driver is driving uh he'll not have to concentrate on driving otherwise he'll be disturbed he'll be disturbed by the music Once again the communication between the passengers and the maybe the conductor or the driver in case a passenger wanted to <-/>to alight it becomes very difficult He shouts or she shouts Nobody hears So we don't want to hear this kind of music uh being played in these <ea/>matatus for so many reasons apart of what I've said
<$A> When these <ea/matatu drivers and the touts are right in town they switch off the music but once they get out of town they start playing it Is there no way which the traffic department can get them out of town
<$B> Yeah these are clever lions I've learnt a lot of things from these <ea/>matatus you know They all have this music played outside of the city centre but still we're always alert Sometimes we mount this operation and then we arrest a few who are still who are still having this uh uh music system in their <ea/>matatus
<$A> And first aid boxes are very important especially in PSV vehicles but I tend to think that in many <ea/>matatus these facilities are lacking Is the traffic department trying to do something about it
<$B> Yes surely we are trying to <-/>to put uh an effort into this and every PSV vehicle should have that item first aid uh uh kit-box because in any case an accident occurs definitely for those people who know how to <-/>to first aid their victim definitely will benefit from the uh uh from that kit if there are some items whereby a victim can be given a first aid So we'll be trying hard to find out from all these <ea/>matatus and other local buses In any case we find a <-/>a driver has not got one then he has got to answer for that
<$A> What happened uh with the speed governor It was supposed to be introduced and working on our roads But so far we haven't heard much about it
<$B> Thank you very much I think this subject we can little bit put it off at the moment otherwise it's still under study So maybe in the near future you'll have this thing done otherwise at the moment uh the authority's still looking into this matter
<$A> Alcohol can play a major part when it comes to road accidents because people lose their minds and they forget that they're using the roads which so many people are using Yet we'll find that especially weekends some people go with their cars somewhere and they start drinking and yet we have police officers and they know very well after drinking these people are going to drive Is there no action which can be taken
<$B> Surely we have been taking action every now and then Otherwise the problem we have in this uh city is that the outskirts drivers tend to be clever enough They go they park their vehicles far away from uh the bars they drink but still when they come across where we amount our operations they get <./>in into a trap So we are busy looking into this and we are insisting in fact we are appealing to remember the public not to drive the vehicles when they have taken some drinks or drugs
<$A> Corporal <O/> you see on our major highways the traffic police they stop a vehicle and then after a while the vehicle leaves You wonder what they are checking What do you check especially when you stop a vehicle
$3 Normally a police officer has got to go into that vehicle to check the capacity of the passengers who have fitted into that vehicle At the same time he has got a right to ask any complaint from members of public who are seated in that vehicle At the same time to check the documents in respect to the same vehicle <-/>vehicle plus other documents for the driver and the <ea/>makangas If they're all good then the vehicle can be released But if somebody has uh loaded the passengers in a in a in a big capacity then the driver will be charged for overloading
<$A> But do you look at the <./>man mechanical aspects of the vehicle because I see someone just goes round the car and don't test the brakes
<$B> No we don't do that The only things we check about uh tyres something like that lights possible but normally we don't go around like a mechanics No we don't do so
<$A> And uh the public vehicles usually you'll find that they're overcrowded at times especially like during Christmas time And I feel sometimes uh the people are not reduced okay the vehicle has been stopped But then the people do not alight Isn't this one way of causing road accidents I should think some people should be told to alight
<$B> Of course if you have been travelling last Christmas or last year's Christmas you have found that uh police officers were busy trying to help members of public Our main uh aim is to make sure that the accidents are reducing but we are not there to ask people to <O/> for that offence no We are there to educate members of public including the drivers themselves If we find a vehicle to be overcrowded it is our duty to ask these members of public politely to get off from this vehicle to wait for another vehicle
<$A> Pedestrians and uh here I like to emphasise especially in Nairobi they're usually not respected by motorists You see there is a zebra crossing but there is a vehicle coming so fast and they're not respecting that zebra crossing What action is usually taken against such drivers
<$B> Fine so far in every place where there's a zebra crossing you find some police officers We are there to help members of public young ones aged ones to cross safely At the same time also we are appealing to members of public let them be aware of these vehicles They've got also the right of the way If a policeman holds a hand to stop vehicles that is their time to cross across the road But sometimes we get other problems like an old <ea/>mama comes to that place She stands and then she watches you what you are doing Now by the time you allow vehicles to pass you'll find that mama trying to pass just running across which is wrong So we're there daily to assist members of public
<$A> Do you work together with engineers who are in charge of roads because you'll find at times there is a zebra crossing and I tend to feel that some of these zebra crossings are not at the right position or the traffic lights
<$B> Fair enough We are asking members of public wherever it comes across anything which is not proper and if there's a way which isn't proper they can inform uh police officers especially traffic department They can go and talk to the engineers and then they rectify it Meanwhile we have got our senior officer He's Mr Munyalo Superintendent of police He is in charge of this section that is research and planning In any case there's a complaint of maybe uh maybe <O/> a building was built at a place which is not supposed or something was done by an engineer who was not aware You can just talk to these people and then something can be done
<$A> At times the traffic lights they'll show the cars that they can move it's green And then for the pedestrians it's green Who is to blame
<$B> Well this is a fault of computer sometimes You know uh machines are machines They are bound to either be correct or wrong So we there is no one to blame otherwise we can now talk of computers Sometimes it is not in a proper condition you'll find that the light given is green for a pedestrian to cross at the same time the other side it is green for a motorist to cross
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<$A> You could perhaps tell the viewers certain precise ideas that that uh led to the kind of mobilisation strategies What were some of the specific objectives that women hoped to achieve uh Were they simply jumping onto the <-/>onto <-_>onto the<-/> bandwagon because there was an election fever round the corner uh Did they really plan for what they were supposed to uh expect to achieve in <-/>in the <-_>in the<-/> long term Was how specific were some of the plans that went into that euphoria
<$B> Yeah I think that's a good question uh It was definitely not euphoria uh What I would say it was part and parcel of what the rest of the Kenyan society was <-/>was being Again you'll remember this was the first time in Kenya that we had multi-party election and all of us were expecting change uh within a multi-party democratic system the kind of change that people had been looking forward to for thirteen years including women And women saw an opportunity which they seized to achieve what they had failed to achieve during earlier struggles since nineteen <./>thir uh sixty-three uh during this current period in <-/>in uh after the repeal of section two uh of the constitution Their major objective of course very short term was the politic in parliament as you said in the beginning getting as many women as possible into decision-making bodies into parliament into civic positions Of course we'd the precise intention objective of using that platform to be able to advance and lobby for all the other issues that affect the status of women the human rights of women
<$A>in positions of leadership in especially in positions of political leadership That is the precise point I'm making And therefore the noise that was made during that electioneering process seems to have been uh a strategy perhaps placed in place by uh certain men in society certain political figures in society uh to <-/>to have the women uh do what they expected them to do In other words I do not think that the women actually <O/> planned and insured that a certain process was going to be in place for them to achieve certain political positions because I <-/>I think at the end of the election uh uh campaign what transpired was that women came up in arms and they said they had been given a slap in the face They were disillusioned by the results of the uh of the election uh process And yet judging by what went during the election process one would have expected that uh all that noise all that euphoria all that mobilisation should really have given certain concrete results for women
<$B> Uh Mr <name/> I <-/>I want to disagree with you about the noise We women were not making noise and I think using that concept is an insult to the women of Kenya 
<$A> Well I think the concept 
<$B> Now I may think <O/> noise women <-/>women did not make noise 
<$A> the concept of noise Dr Mariondon is <-/>is <-/>is one that is an acceptable concept in <-/>in <-/>in uh <-/>in a normal electioneering process
<$B> What they did
<$A> Noise is <-/>is uh in this context something that uh men made men still make a lot of noise about elections today the word over So I don't use the word noise in <-/>in uh uh a <-/derogative> sense I'm talking about the general atmosphere
<$B> I hope <-/>hope not I hope not But I wanted to clear that issue because I know there are women there as viewers who when they heard you use that concept they were offended
<$A> Well the men wouldn't be offended if I said men make a lot of noise
<$B> Men <-/>men <-/>men talk a lot of women just making empty noise meaning that they just talk but they don't mean a word they say Let me tell you something Last year women meant everything they did And let me tell you somebody who participated directly in the process We spent sleepless night strategizing planning and there was not a single man there telling us what to do We were designing our own plans as women of this country We were fed up with being led by the nose by men And we're saying we have to take the bull by the horns That's what we were saying <O/> last year 
<$A> Well how far did you take the bull
<$B> We did we did
<$A> Just how far <O/>
<$A> We took it we took it to the elections and I already told you the figures that women had as they approached the election <./>des despite all the problems they encountered through the electoral process what then happened and this is the point I was about to make before you brought me back after the elections is that the modest achievement they made which everything considered can even be said to be good achievement by getting six women into parliament before we have only had an average of two women in parliament And I would say this was purely through the efforts of women themselves not anything handed down to them by the men of this country and
<$A> Wouldn't you think perhaps uh uh uh wouldn't you want to comment on the fact that perhaps behind every woman who took part in this uh uh election process with due respect to the women who did that there was a man behind them 
<$B> No there was no man behind them except perhaps if you're talking about spouses who had for the first time to find how uh uh you know wives coming home a bit late because we were busy planning and strategizing some where
<$A> Doesn't that this then bring us back to the issue of uh the status of women uh uh as women and the status of men as men What is your view of uh the Kenyan woman Is she a different type of woman because the world over we get the impression that uh men will always be men and by extension women will always be women and uh the <-/>the <-/>the historical facts bear out the fact that uh men apparently lead the world Women support men in positions of leadership What is your view on that
<$B> My view is that that may be the <-/>the current reality in terms of numbers in terms of percentages particularly in the political arena It's true that if you look at uh the <-/>the world's the global cabinets you'll find probably on the average about three percent women uh If you look at how many women are prime ministers or presidents of various countries they're a handful That is a fact and it has a lot to do with a lot of historical uh events you know over time that has led to a situation where man has been uh in a sense seen by society as the one who should provide leadership particularly political leadership and it has all to do with you know in a very basic sense to do with our socialisation both men and women their so-called social-cultural uh upbringings
<$A> It goes beyond it goes beyond Dr Marionsomo <O/>
<$B> No It doesn't <-_>it doesn't<-/> No it doesn't
<$A> It goes beyond the <-/>the It goes beyond the socialising
<$B> Let me finish <-_>let me finish<-/> I'll tell you what I think
<$A> I just wanted to make a comment
<$B> It's not biological You talk about you know uh uh these <-/>these problems are uh not biological
<$A> Yes they're not biological factor <O/>
<$B>The only thing that is biological about the relationship the gender relations is the fact that you are born a man a man who cannot perhaps bear children yah uh because nature did not give you the ability to bear children But you contribute to the bearing of children But the person who has not only to contribute to the bearing of the children but also perhaps who carried the child for nine months is <-/>is the woman That's perhaps the only difference and that is not a difference that should not make that you know major difference in terms of what you and me can do in <-/>in future <-_>in future<-/> life you know beyond uh the <-/>the reproductive activities if one may call may call them that So the point I'm making is what happens thereafter that creates barriers for women to advance particularly in <-/>in certain areas like politics has a lot to do with socio-cultural conditioning You are conditioned from the time you are born as a baby and the time I was born as a baby to see yourself as somebody with socially designed roles that you must play and you're almost told that it is God-given although it is not God-given
<$A> Well the <-/>the the spiritual fact is that it is God-given I mean don't you believe in the myth of creation 
<$B> I don't I don't believe in myths
<$A> That Adam was created before <-/>before Eve was created Do you believe it 
<$B> I don't believe in myths and I <-/>I with all due respect to God and I have a lot of respect in God I don't believe in those myths
<$A> Perhaps the <-/>the that the <-/>the <-/>the woman who is an exceptional <./>rea uh leader is really the exception to the rule that the majority of the women are indeed content to be led by men
<$B> No I think there is nothing exceptional about the women who lead All that is exceptional is that perhaps certain you know circumstances within her <-/>her own upbringing did not fit within the mould within <-/>within which some of us have been socialised that perhaps her parents had brought her through those you know socio-cultural myths about gender roles and they trained their daughter from very uh very young age to think differently which in itself goes back to say if we retrain or if we <-/>we start the process of resocializing ourselves and our children differently there would be no reason in the world why men and women should not share all roles decision-making or otherwise except perhaps for the <-/>the bear you know the <-/>the carrying of a child for nine months 
<$A> Are you then advocating uh a sort of equality between men and women
<$B> I am <-/>am advocating equity 
<$A> You're <./>advocat advocating equity
<$B> Yeah
<$A> But uh what then makes the difference between advocating equity and advocating equality Perhaps the few the viewers would want to bring out the differences
<$B> I think equality assumes that you know everything has to sort of be measured you know you almost put everything on weights and balance it and you have to measure every little you know uh ounce to make sure that there is complete equality okay Equity on the other hand you know brings the concept of justice you know in terms of sharing roles That for example if you are in the kitchen cooking and I'm in the sitting room supervising uh the homework of the child we don't argue over whether the <-/>the <-/>the kitchen you know work you're doing at the same time I'm doing the supervision is <-/>is uh the equal to the one I'm you know you're <-/>you're doing in the kitchen In other words it's a it's a question of having a proper understanding where one person does not you know overly suppress the other
<$A> You are a very very uh uh uh you <-/>you are in a position of leadership 
<$B> yes
<$A>You're an international figure uh You teach at the university You teach men you teach women 
<$B><-/>uha
<$A> Therefore you have achieved a certain status in <-/>in society Have you had any obstacles Have you had any direct confrontations from the Kenyan man challenging your role your status as a woman in that kind of position of leadership 
<$B> I would say
<$A> To hear you talk
<$B> Yeah
<$A> To hear the majority of the women in the country to talk about equity uh vis-à-vis equality one would begin to think that uh men have actually shut doors in women's faces My question then is where were the women when men were shutting these doors You're talking about the socialisation process as having uh uh made women what they are made men what they are 
<$B> <-/>uha
<$A> I quoted earlier that the Bible the spiritual process has also made women subservient to men 
<$B><-/>uha
<$A> But in your experience have you really encountered I know of cases but I would like to hear from you Have you encountered sexist uh attitudes uh in this country Have you encountered sexist attitudes elsewhere
<$B> Personally <-/>personally
<$A> Yes yes you personally
<$B> Oh yes oh yes I <-/>I get them all the time uh You <-/>you uh I can be at a meeting the lone woman in the meeting 
S1B048K
<$A> Now you have seen in previous programmes and those of you who may not have had the opportunity of seeing them they should know where we are We started with the life of a baby inside the womb of uh of his mother Then we went through the stage of delivering that baby We had appropriate experts on that area to give the professional view uh there and we went on to the child in its early stages when we had also an expert in that area and then we have looked at the issues that uh are going to help a mother cope with not only having the pregnancy but also delivering the baby and also uh be able to look after that baby better identifying areas of possible trouble which may render such a child vulnerable to stress-related problems later in life We have looked at also parentage as an issue from uh day one all the way to year twelve of age and here again we have had different experts to look at the bio-physiological development aspect to look at the relationship of parent-child and how they differ I mean how what they contribute in this area and so on So that we have looked at this issue uh uh up to age twelve and many of you are already aware of this and I need not go back to all the things that we have said Right now we have reached a stage where we want to introduce the next stage which is very important namely the teenage
<$B> Thank you now when you talk of the teenage age or the teenagers as the terminology may be used to describe a certain group of people I believe the areas that must be defined is the relationship that is where they're similar where there par between puberty and adolescence Now if you may just enunciate that further
<$A> yes I think uh there is a uh an <-/interbetween> position between the adolescence and the childhood and that is the stage we call puberty and it starts with the physical changes that we see in a child uh such as rapid development of the body both in terms of height and also girth and other dimensions We also see the developmental things in the body that were not there before such as breasts uh beard the voice of a boy breaks and if he was singing alto uh or uh like that he may need now to move on to bass or things like this And there are those changes they also <O/> to develop pimples on their face all these changes rapid growth and the others I've mentioned uh that stage when this is occurring that is what we call puberty Now it is a biophysiological change really mainly seen in the body and that introduces adolescence and adolescence is a stage where you have uh now hypersocial changes and they <-/>they take new meaning and greater prominence uh in the child uh or or <O/> the young persons Now that is the difference between them one embraces the hypersocial area of change the other the physical area of change
<$B> Do both of these constitute the teenage age or where does that come in? If you maybe define that
<$A> Well teenage really traditionally has been defined as age thirteen to say eighteen or there about Uh for us <O/>you may say from you know some of them they can start a bit earlier like twelve the early bird and age nineteen the later ones But mainly from thirteen to about eighteen traditionally but <./>teen the term teenager does not cover all of adolescence at all It is kind of time related to <O/> But we now know that adolescence as such goes far beyond what we traditionally call teenage so that some of the research coming out even from this country are now showing that uh adolescence is on all the way up to age twenty-four So we can say adolescence as such uh starts with the oncoming of uh puberty but then goes on mushrooming and being much more serious say between age fifteen uh and uh fourteen and eighteen that's the peak But then we do see some <O/> struggling with what is and still could be adolescence even into the early twenties all the way up to twenty-four
<$B> So without wanting to jump the gun so of speak and get into may be what could be the next stage somewhat on the programme that is adulthood when you hear the term adulthood by law I think it's about eighteen years or twenty-one depending on some countries Does that imply that the term adolescence one can be in the adolescent stage yet be a young adult or does adolescence simply refer to what you call maturity or maturing of the body
<$A> Well the <-/>the <-/>the legal definition of maturation differs uh from <-/>from some other definitions of maturation and I think that the legal age eighteen is okay we accept that as stated by the constitution but you do have very many people who have not finished with their business of growing up by age eighteen Legally they are adults entitled to vote have one vote as adult in law entitled to get married uh uh and only respectfully inform parents about it because they are adults and that kind of thing but we now know that very many of these legal adults are not in terms of human maturation parameters uh adults yet because they are still struggling in coping with the problems of adolescence although legally they are adults You are right therefore that there is a difference between the two
<$B> now if we may go back to the puberty stage that is why you mentioned that there is the biophysiological change within the body What kind of changes are we talking of if you may look at specifics the kind of education that you may have or that go with it by the individual concerned because all along as you've grown up you've been able to have questions answered and some of these changes will occur within and the person so to speak will choose to contain them within himself or herself feeling that by letting it out then there is some <O/> on his or her part not quite understanding that it's all in the courses of change 
<$A> yes that is important to understand Well I think one frightening change is that very rapid growth of the body I remember one boy who asked his father When am I going to stop daddy when am I going to stop growing up He was so worried that he was already six feet and he was uh fifteen year I mean sort of odd thing <O/> he was six feet up and he was <O/> sixteen year and he thought that this is terrible and uh he was very very worried We have seen that in boys we have seen that in girls There are girls of fifteen who look twice the size of their mothers sometimes and uh because of various biological reasons why that happened Now when you have a rapid bodily growth this worries the wearer of this body They <-/>they don't think it's going to stop and they're worried that it will go on and on and on and on so they become very very anxious and they're asking questions like that there are other who are worried by the development for example of beard and rough face and a broken voice These things uh do not conjure a picture of beauty and handsomeness in a young man and they are worried that that they're getting worse and not better in terms of beauty and so on and this worries them so that you see anxiety and worry about these physical changes They are normal completely In girls you have development of breasts and many of them again uh well subconsciously they look forward to them, when they finally come they don't like them so much uh but worse than the breasts is when the period the monthly period comes for the first time It's one of these physical changes <O/> and that worries them very much so that the emotional maturation of these children is not where it should be to be able to understand and accommodate this The intellectual maturity is not <O/> yet to be able to understand them that is why programmes like this help them know that these are normal changes They are going to grow according to the way God has programmed when they are going to stop and there'll be no problems at all but the anxieties and worries that go with them we should appreciate as adults and help them where we can
<$B> so these changes are there and they will take place in any normal growing person What of the social acceptance that is one can understand that the parents or the adults who are there within that environment should help the children get to understand and accept this as part and parcel of growing up What of the when I mentioned the social acceptance within the field I'm imagining you may have such situations where the children are now going to school yet <?/>relatively others want them to be maturing and growing up faster compared to the others and with children they are always teasing each other back and forth then you shouldn't belong to our class you're not one of us so you are an old man and so on How do you get to relate to them
<$A> Human beings look at the size of the body and they decide that the ones who are little are children the bodies that are big belong to adults that is the first major area of trouble because at family level when a young man that is a boy grows up to say five feet eight nearly six feet and he is only sixteen adults in that family father mother and others see a big bodied individual and they conclude that this is an adult and therefore they expect out of them behaviour appropriate to an adult He is not an adult yet he is only a child but with a body that looks like that of an adult In fact this is important to remember because this is described a lot in literature that the body reaches adult size about the age I've just mentioned uh but the intelligence is somewhere in-between adult and say a child They are in high-school and they are able to do quite complicated intellectual uh calculations and so on but emotionally they are even younger still than <-/>than that so you see a person who is carrying a body of an adult an intelligence halfway between if you like and an emotional apparatus of a child that's right for the emotional apparatus by that <-/>that age may not even more than say age uh thirteen or fourteen or that kind of thing although the person may be sixteen so in fact if you look at that now you see a person who is in chaos Body of an adult intelligence half way between if you like and then emotions of a child in one and the same person That disconnection of the individual in his personality unity so to speak is causes a lot of difficulty for the teenager and this is referred to as adolescent turmoil Here is refers to the kind of chaos and the feelings of uh fear and uh the and <O/> all that that occur around this sort of time as the puberty enters and <O/> adolescence and there is a grey area between them and it's not that puberty stops here adolescence starts there This area the psychology of it <-_>the physiology of it<-/> uh and of course the physical dimensions I just mentioned that is causing a lot of trouble so what I'm trying to say therefore is that when you see people with these big bodies ask them their age If they are only fifteen sixteen then or even thirteen they are not yet mature enough to be expected to perform as if they were already fully mature 
S1B049K
<$A> Child Survival is a programme highlighting the plight of children all over the world The growing cases of child abuse and neglect the need to observe the rights of the child his health and the general care of the child
<$C> Participation the right to participation is a dynamic and to all rights of children And this is embedded in the UN convention on the rights of the child which makes provision for the right to participation In <-/>in articles in the following articles you have the right to expression freedom of thought and conscience freedom of association protection from interference with privacy protection of children of minorities with the indigenous people Uh participation might mean that children have a right to be a part of to take part in and to be heard on issues affecting them They have a right to freedom of expression and I say matters that affect their lives Uh children also have a right to association with other children to play join clubs and this is a way that they can develop their talents
<$B> Now people might uh misunderstand this meaning of the children having the right to participation Some of them in fact I've heard of them saying that maybe once we talk of the children's right to participation will mean that maybe they're not going to listen to their parents Okay would you like to comment on this
<$C> Yes I would say that uh the UN convention on the rights of the child which Kenya is uh signatory to it we ratified it in <./>Novem uh in nineteen ninety-one uh are called basic rights and this does not infringe on the rights of parents to decide what is the best for the children Instead the convention states uh government responsibility to keep uh parents together and to support and provide assistance to them so that they can fulfil their primary responsibility So the promotion of children's rights should not be seen as placing children in conflict with the adults but encouraging also the sense to work together for safe healthy and productive future Promotion of rights should however go hand in hand with tolerance of different views and opinions However responsible expression of uh opinion should be necessary People should not just talk you know they should also have responsible expression of opinion
<$B> So what is the parents' role when it comes to this uh right to participation
<$C> Uh I would say that the role of the parent is to guide the children Guide them as they make decisions uh Guide them as they talk about their rights uh The role of the parent really is to guide guide the child
<$A> By way of negating the child's right to participation the Kenya Alliance for Advancement of Children has formed child rights clubs in a few primary schools in Nairobi and Kisumu Through these clubs children learn more about their rights and are in turn expected to tell other children and their parents about these rights Miss <name/> further explains about the child rights clubs
<$C> Uh It's an organization that is established to advance interest and well-being of children in Kenya And what we're doing is that we have formed or established child rights clubs in few primary schools and secondary schools in Kisumu And it is in these clubs that children are taught their rights they emphasize those rights that have been denied and they are empowered to take action by sensitizing other children and the community about their rights So what we're doing is starting child rights clubs and the <-/>the objective of the clubs is to create awareness to children about their rights and also to help build a culture of tolerance of different schools of thought uh freedom of expression and respect for the rule of law among children In the clubs also we promote the artistic talents of children through drama play song essay and poster competition and uh the idea here is to create a culture among children which is sensitive to the environment around them and even other children who are in difficult circumstances
<$B> So at the moment how many child rights clubs do you have
<$C> Uh we have in <-/>in Kisumu we are working Kenya Alliance for Advancement of Children is working with the following schools We are working with <?/>Manjata Primary School We're also working with <./>DH <?/>DHT Secondary School <?/>Orongo Primary School <?/>Kabuja Girls' School and a <?/>Ridge kids' programme and uh <?/>Fish youth group These are uh based around Kisumu municipality schools based around Kisumu municipality
<$B> And here in Nairobi
<$C> In Nairobi we are working with <?/>Bogasi Primary School <name/> Primary School Saint Bridget's Primary School <name/> School Saint Georges Secondary School Saint Teresa Street Children Programme and the Undugu Basic Education Programme that is situated in <name/>
<$B> Now how do you select these uh <-/>these schools
<$C> Uh Kenya Alliance what we do is that we visit schools and hold various discussions with the head teachers If the head teachers are interested in the objectives of the clubs and the various activities we're going to have then they select a teacher who comes to our organisation and is trained on what the UN convention is all about and the objectives of the club of the clubs And it is these teachers who establish clubs or initiate formation of clubs in the schools
<$B> So uh once they have formed a club what <./>act kind of activities do they take part in
<$C> Uh in the clubs once we have trained the teachers uh our first thing that the teachers do uh is that children learn about their rights they are introduced to the UN convention on the rights of the child and issues affecting them like drug abuse health exploitation and other issues that are bound to come out As you're talking about uh children's rights which covers all areas uh of children and then children are given an opportunity to air their views on issues affecting them Then through song dance drama debate uh children come up with messages on what they have learned about drug abuse about education and they come up with messages which are passed on to other children uh on rights community responsibility could be of main importance of educating girls messages could be uh what the responsibility of the communities or what the responsibility of the child is and then these messages are uh are passed to the community and to other children We use children themselves to pass on messages about their own rights to other children and their community
<$B> How do they go about that
<$C> Uh what we have done is that we organize some of them are essay competitions and drawing competitions that are organized for children uh to discover their hidden talents Some children are very very talented You also find that uh when you organize essay and drawing competitions they all write about topical issues they have learned about Uh and once they write our role and task is to publish We try and publish works made by children and which is usually an incentive to them Kenya Alliance also mobilizes on special days set aside for children like the day of the African child or the universal children's day or any other forum It could be a schoolday it could be these special days that I've mentioned that are days set aside for children And it is through this kind of forums where children come up with different messages We also try and encourage the teachers uh on events that are set aside like uh the drama and <./>mus music festival that messages children's rights messages come out through the plays and the songs and the on the play the play's songs and drama that they push through to <-/>to that kind of activity And this year I'm <-/>I'm happy to say that one of the clubs in Kisumu <?/>Manjata Primary School did have a <-/>a song that came all the way to <-/>to the National here in Nairobi at KACC
<$B> And uh for how long have these child rights clubs been in existence
<$C> Uh we started out with the idea of working with children in nineteen ninety-three that's when the Kisumu clubs were established We formed a committee in Kisumu where we mobilized organizations working on the ground in Kisumu Uh they came together and they came up with schools a number of schools where we formed the clubs that was in nineteen ninety-three And it is this idea they the clubs worked very very well they were very successful uh the clubs in Kisumu have been very very successful and we borrowed this idea and we have established the same this year in Nairobi
<$B> So for Nairobi you're 
<$C> the clubs
<$B> just beginning
<$C> Yes the clubs are very new
<$B> And uh as so far would you say you have uh tried to reap benefits or to say the benefits from the establishment of these child rights clubs
<$C> I would say so yes because uh children have realized that they have some rights or they have rights they're entitled to different rights and from discussions held with them from reading their works that are submitted to <-/>to us for publishing you see that there is an interest in children to learn about their rights to get to know about uh issues that involve them and to feel that they are part of uh decision making So I <-/>I feel that they it has been very very successful I would also like to say that uh we've had requests from other schools and even beyond the boundaries of Kenya Uh different people are requesting the uh formation of child rights clubs in their countries We have had requests from uh Sudan and central <-/>central part of Africa where organizations are requesting that uh we initiate a process where they can establish child rights clubs and this can be forums for children to air their views to get to know about their rights and also uh educate other children And what we are doing is that uh we are working on a manual which we hope to produce by the end of this year uh for moderators or facilitators of the child rights clubs
S1B050K
<$A> Thank you uh as we are talking about gender there is the uh <-/>the gender sensitization that uh Femnet usually carries out What is gender sensitization
<$C> uh I would describe gender sensitization as a process by which a person comes to a knowledge of what uh effect first of all what are the roles that men and women carry out in society What is the effect of those roles the <O/> effect on men and women children old people both male and female and also just to realize the whole social dynamic that is conditioned by the different roles understand how for example uh one's behaviour as a man is conditioned by society and more importantly have an empathy for the other gender For example if you're a man and you come to a realization through a sensitization process that your upbringing makes you much more uh amenable to being aggressive and sometimes that aggression is not always good for the family then you become more sensitive by embarking on some kind of uh corrective programme under which you're going to regulate your behaviour to be fair to the other people 
<$A> uh Cecilia do you have something to add on to that 
<$B> No not so much more than what Mr Machete has said but just to add on <_-what's><+_what> really gender sensitization is generally and I think it is sensitizing individuals on the perspective of seeing both women and men as playing a very important role in society It may mean even in the offices trying to sensitize both men and women on the various roles that both of them are playing as being important not seeing like for example a secretary whose who is a woman or that a secretarial job is basically that of a woman and seeing her as a lesser person within society but seeing her as contributing uh equally towards development as much as men and so a secretarial job should not just be for a woman but even it should be encouraged that men should see it as also a job that they can take on to themselves So it's actually sensitizing people to see people as equal players in the whole process 
<$C> I would also add that it has something to do with uh making people aware of their needs their problems their advantages everything to do with uh the other sex so to speak so that one does not is not imprisoned by uh stereotyping people for example deciding that <./>init <./>int you <-/>you have been told that men are one two three and you decide without even uh looking at people individually that this is what every other woman or what every other man is going to be It's in fact a way of uh making people sort of rethink their views rethink the way society works and much more important try to make the world acceptable to both men and women 
<$A> Okay thank you very much How can uh people be sensitized in gender uh Cecilia how can people be sensitized in gender
<$B> Uh that's a very important question because you keep hearing people ask you are talking about gender sensitization how can you be sensitized in gender but I think an initial place or the first really first place that one should be sensitized is within the family You know the way that the children you bring up your children within the family would be one of the very first steps that you start sensitizing both the boys and girls within the family by trying to show them that they can play all the roles equally and not see that there are roles that are set out for boys and that there are roles set out by girls and you know by trying to sensitize people and that's how they can start as a starting point to show their girls that they can also even study uh science subjects because we know that it's even from the house that we see our parents telling their children that you are a girl so I think you should do nothing and you are a boy I think you should do engineering So it's from that basic level the basic level the household unit that we can start by sensitizing people on gender issues 
<$C> I <-/>I could also add that uh more on the process that you could sensitize people as Cecilia is saying by some conscious education programme by telling people to show by example and also uh by the way they instruct others that gender roles are complementary that there is really nothing God-ordained about those roles that have been carried out traditionally in a certain manner But there many other ways of sensitizing people in gender for example when it comes to the public sectors you are talking about the job market you are talking about relationships within uh a whole country a whole political system then uh the education campaign becomes much more a bit technical but it needs a lot of commitment from most of the people for example in showing how important it is in workplaces for there to be some kind of gender equity when carrying out things why it is important in politics for example to have as many men as there are women participating within that system so that if there are any differences if there in needs between men and women democratically they could be resolved in such a sphere The education takes on a wider scale on the <-/>the bigger society and it needs maybe much more skills and knowledge about society and knowledge about the particular sectors within which people live in order to sensitize them Just take the farming sector for example It would take somebody who knows the kind of activities that take place in farming who carries out these activities just by coming to that knowledge is in itself a way of sensitization because for the first time maybe some of the roles carried out by men or women will become visible and the way these roles affect their lives and the other sectors within an economy is going to become known to people So assuming that after somebody has got some knowledge this in itself becomes a starting point towards changing
<$B> And the first step is actually education deliberate efforts to attain this equity would be through education and we are talking about access to education by both men and women by both boys and girls having access to education as a starting point and then I think all the other things will follow naturally uh In Kenya we know that we have some problems some cultures that actually do not allow women to have access to land to even control the uh whatever they plant on the land Yet we know that they are the ones that are farming much more than any other person within the household These are some of the things that inhibit you know real equity as we are talking about gender equity There are other issues apart from just access to land access to livestock We could name a whole range of things that we know that one <-/>one side like the female gender does not have access to this kind of thing but I would re-emphasize the fact that I think education would be a starting point so long as we make uh everybody have the same access to education I think we'd go a long way actually gender sensitization process 
<$A> When you talk about gender what are the critical areas that you need to focus on 
<$C> One could group them into different categories especially in the way they determine relationships That's basic areas which one could focus on starts right from uh the development process for example the activities that are carried out within society and who does what Also one looks at issues to do with uh resources access to those resources For example do men and women have equal or equitable access to the kind of resources that we have Let's keep in mind that the resources we have within a country within any economy are a national heritage of that particular country Therefore right from the beginning men and women ought to have equal access to those resources and conditions should be such that everyone regardless of whether they <./>wheth <./>wheth whether they are men or women or children should live under such conditions that they can aspire to the highest that the resources can allow and acquire it So issues of access and control of those resources are very important when you're looking at it We are also concerned with the whole area of what determines uh what goes on in society We are trying to understand for example how come in certain areas as Cecilia had mentioned cultures that some cultures have been oppressive in one way or another some cultures have encouraged violence of one gender against the other What makes them have such a heritage which definitely causes pain to other people Then uh there is the whole issue of striving as much as possible within gender sensitization also to put into place programmes and education campaigns anything that is going to have a corrective effect on the uh inequitable way society may be 
<$B> One of the important areas that we should be also identifying or integrating a gender perspective is within the whole decision making process I mean how do we see people that is both men and women playing a part from the very very lowest to the highest possible decision making process It's about also trying to make sure that we have an equal or at least some uh reasonable uh <-_>some reasonable<-/> number of people to represent us in all the levels of decision making So that's another place that I think that we should be looking at very seriously and then just to go on to that even before thinking of how we can be able to integrate the whole gender perspective as I mentioned earlier I see it starting actually from a very low level trying to <-_starting><+_start> educating our youth How do we see young people now coming into this whole debate and how can we be able to help them to come into it because as I was saying before it's about training people from the very household level or trying to sensitize them at the household level or when they are young when they do not already know that there is a split in roles that if as I grow up as a man these are the roles I'm going to play and as I grow up as a woman these are the roles It's now starting to mould the youth or the young people to start realizing what their roles are within the whole society not to see their sisters as a lesser partner within the whole society but to see them as equal partners
<$A> What role do you see men play 
<$B> I think that's a very important question at this point when we are discussing gender issues and we know that the conference actually is called the Fourth World Conference on Women It doesn't talk about gender but of women and as I was mentioning before is  that I really see a role for men to play it's not just a supporting role but a full role within uh our preparatory processes 
S1BINT1K
<$D> so that the aspect of integration is coming into it The units definitely have as Mr Menya has mentioned their problem because children are there with one teacher sometimes for a long time Seeing the same teacher they have no change of face and they can have problems Their parents do have problems but the aspect today is looking at disabilities as a continuum of uh handicap that there are children who are mildly or <./>mod moderately or severely and profoundly impaired And because of that some children can actually be individually integrated instead of just sticking into a unit set at a corner of school they can be individually integrated into the various classes in a in a school system 
<$A> among their colleagues
<$D> Yes And in that way then they learn more and uh socially they develop better because they are mixing with others socially and also educationally
<$A> They don't feel ostracised and therefore the moral is uh boosted
<$D> Yes
<$A> So as we can see then from our discussion so far that special education has suffered for many years due to many factors notably lack of qualified staff and the methodology used of sort of not taking care that these children are integrated among their colleagues Again one gets the impression that a scientific assessment of the problems involved uh have not really been sort of or rather has not been carried out properly and that uh in order to therefore deliver education effectively to this minority among fellow Kenyans uh there's need therefore to rectify if not to remove all these problems And this is where we're told the Kenya Institute of Special Education comes in as <ea/>Bwana Menya told us that the idea has been there for quite a while for almost thirty years we're told But it wasn't in fact until our president uh President Moi took it up more seriously more so when he declared uh the year the national Year of the Child in nineteen eighty that the matter was really taken in hand and within two years or so the institute began to be built Can we then hear from the Director exactly what the institute is supposed to do
<$C> Thank you Mr Chairman
<$A> Very briefly so that We don't want to
<$C> Yeah This institute is an <-/>an institute which we would call is unique in this part of the world and particularly we say so with a lot of pride because uh Kenya Government allowed children to have access to education And therefore this accessibility was made possible for children who are also handicapped and as you said in nineteen eighty and eighty-one these two years were of great significance to special education and uh as a result uh that particular period a lot of discussions went on on how we are going to improve the welfare of the disabled in the country in within those two years and the years to come As a result those of us professionals who are working in the particular field looked at various problems that were affecting the disabled persons and what we could do to move ahead And we realise we had quite a number of problems One of them was assessment of children and identification and placement of these children So the idea of an assessment programme became part of the institute We had the larger programme which was more understood by everyone else and that was teacher training so we combined all the teacher training programmes so that we are able to comprehensively train our teachers to handle and deal with the various <./>dis disabilities more effectively So the teacher training programmes that Mr Menya mentioned were moved to this institute And they formed a core of programmes that uh are looking into the curriculum areas of special areas And then we have very recently because of problems and lack of space we felt we must have in-service programmes that will enhance training not only for teachers by but others as well So we started to have three months in-service courses which are regularly held running from currently with a diploma programme Then we have short courses This is also to reach more people one-day seminars for parents it can be for social workers other professionals that have got related field and programmes that handicapped people also can express themselves So we have those seminars going on And later on we felt we must do something about repair maintenance of equipment and possibly come up with alleviation of problems of making technical aids that uh can be easily available in this country There is uh a department there which is working extremely hard to come up with some of the technical aids for the various disciplines And then the question of awareness became of great <./>con concern to us and we have an elaborate very good library with rare books in Special Education booklets publications of materials bulletins all these are done by that particular department And the lastly recently we have felt the need to launch a programme at a distance in Special Education This will help us to reach not only the special teachers but also uh regular school teachers who have a large number of children with special problems in the regular school system and who could benefit from these programmes As a result uh the institute has become very comprehensive and intensive with the type of work we are doing
<$A> Okay Maybe <ea/>Bwana Mwagiri could come here and tell us something about the courses as Director of Studies How are these courses uh fashioned
<$D> Uh Thank you very much
<$A> devised Do we have any precedents we base them on
<$D> Thank you very much Mr Chairman Uh We did mention earlier on that the teacher training programmes had been there uh in scattered areas The mode of training was different from the mode that we're using now Uh Since the institute uh was started the students that come uh follow a programme which concentrates on areas that are kind of <./>in interdisciplinary in the first year so that all teachers who come there get some idea about special education generally They may be there to train as teachers for the blind or teachers for the physically handicapped but when they come first they're introduced to all areas of special education before going into their various corners to specialise in their main areas of specialisation
<$A> It's a two-year course
<$D> It's a two-year course and uh specialisation is usually done in the second year and the first year because there are so many things to be introduced and because of the kind of candidate we get sometimes he may have had some experience having taught in a special school or having worked in a special programme or they may just come straight from an ordinary primary school
<$A> So your teacher trainees in fact are not those taken straight from high school
<$D> No no
<$A> Yes They have to have some teaching experience
<$D> They have to have and this is not just Kenya Uh Most countries in the world follow the same kind of system that a teacher to train in a special area to teach children with special needs must be a trained teacher himself and must have worked with ordinary children before coming to specialise
<$A> Okay Any further comment on the course content and uh
<$D> Uh The course content if I may briefly say what is contained in it uh We know a lot of uh we hearing impaired children mentally handicapped children have problems with communication and therefore we have a component in the interdisciplinary area called uh Speech and Communication And then we also have an area called Educational Psychology which covers child development educational psychology itself and other areas of learning disabilities And then we have an area called uh did I mention the three I think I have mentioned the three Those are the main areas And then as I said earlier the second year is devoted to specific areas If the teachers of the hearing impaired they may do more language development and disorders they may do audiology the act of hearing If they are with the visually handicapped they will also concentrate on the ear on the eye and these problems
<$A> So maybe <ea/>Bwana Kariuki could come in and illustrate to us for example you are the Head of the Department for the Visually Handicapped What <-/>what do you teach teacher trainees there to make them help students
<$E> Yes As Mr Mwagiri has uh said when the students come they are first of all exposed to the interdisciplinary components of the course
<$A> Let's concentrate on the visually
<$E> Yes and uh after they have left that course they come to us in the department and uh we teach them the anatomy and physiology of the eye We teach them Braille We teach them history of education of the blind We teach them psychology of the visually handicapped person We teach them learning process of the visually handicapped We teach them methods of teaching low-vision children We teach them orientation and mobility
<$A> What's that orientation and
<$E> Orientation and mobility Well when the visually impaired children who are born uh totally blind or with little vision usually have a problem in orientation They you know they have this problem in getting around We give them methods of finding their ways and carrying themselves around in the house outside you know ways of kind of uh finding their ways in new environments and techniques of uh self-defence you know so that they don't go bumping into walls and other persons
<$A> So the teacher trainee once he's coached in those areas will help his uh
<$E> The children where <-/>where he goes to teach And finally we teach them methods of teaching the visually handicapped persons from the young children to the bigger children adapting of the curriculum and so on
<$D> Maybe I can add something more
<$A> Yeah
<$D> And when we say teaching here the orientation and mobility we don't they are not just being trained within the institute to walk around We do as the Director said manufacture a number of teaching aids One of them is the white cane that you see blind people holding and getting around So they use those ones in the institute they go out sometimes
<$A> Who does Who uses them
<$D> The students and the teacher trainees
<$A> Although they can see
<$D> Although they can see they simulate by wearing something over their eyes and then holding that white cane and getting around
<$A> For the viewers who don't quite know how the white cane works or helps could you tell us how it helps 
<$D> Uh Maybe Mr Kariuki can
<$A> Is it for somebody else to see it and know that this is a blind man
<$E> Partly so <-_partly so<-/> the white cane is supposed to show you that the person who is coming is blind and at the same time it's made in a way such that the sound it produces is able to tell the blind person the kind of surface he is treading on and he can know whether this is grass whether of course he would detect an object with it and it will also tell him uh what kind of landmark in terms of land surfaces he's treading on
<$A> Right so that then is an insight into the sort of training that goes on to produce qualified teachers to go and teach in uh special schools Can we now get an insight into another aspect of the work of the of the institute namely the whole question of educational assessment and resource services uh Mrs Abila could you give us a difference We gather that this is where you I think assess children
<$C> Yes
<$A> In other words although it is an institute for training teachers a parent maybe hearing us with a child who has a visual impairment can come to you also 
<$C> Yes
<$A> for help in assessing how badly the impairment is how bad the impairment or otherwise
<$C> Thank you Mr Chairman The idea of the assessment centres also came up as part of the institute quite <-/>quite earlier on because we realised that uh quite a number of schools were having children who were completely mixed up Some were blind mentally handicapped hearing impaired They were all kind of lumped together in one institution And we felt for remediation purposes we must S1BINT2K
<$A> But don't you think this problem has been there for quite a while like the Moi Avenue and Muranga Road junction There is this problem and even a pedestrian is confused where should I cross
<$B> Well <./>may maybe that does not come to our notice otherwise it would have been corrected as early is possible
<$A> And uh there was a time when you really emphasised on safety belts especially for private motorists But up to now this has not been put into effect Is there any action which is being taken against cars which don't have safety belts
<$B> Yeah we had uh we had amounted some operations all to reinforce laws in this aspect But the problem is that sometimes people are complaining of materials becoming so expensive So they are combined with the directives who are the authority Otherwise to my knowledge I could say a safety belt is something very important In any case somebody lose control and goes to a ditch by the time he is having that safety belt on he's far much safer than the time when he's you know having no safety belt He can easily be thrown out before the <-/>the car lands to a ditch Or he can be thrown out to a ditch and then the car can follow him So it is a good use for one to <-/>to make of that thing
<$A> And uh traffic signs are very important The road uh signs because some people will not know that there is a sharp corner somewhere But uh travelling along Pica Road I think some of the sign posts have been sort of misplaced another one is facing the wrong direction Is the traffic department in charge of that looking at times at the road signs and seeing whether they're in the proper position
<$B> Yes that's why we're trying to <-/>to recommend our public in case you come across these signs which are not properly fitted or erected uh you inform us immediately and then action is taken Otherwise we are also very sad to see that a <./>mot a <-/>a driver who is now supposed not to go right There is a sign showing that no right turn still the <?/>Simpson cook or <?/>Simpson driver goes right This is very serious and that's why you'll find our police officers uh ever busy uh <O/> these people and uh at least tell them what they know
<$A> Children going to school and coming from school in Nairobi have a problem especially the younger ones And there used to be a time when someone used to assist the children to cross the road And I don't see this much these days Did you get the idea out or is it still operating?
<$B> No we're still operating We've got our police officers on those places where a school was built near a busy road We have got a school bus run They are there helping the schoolchildren But we also have to do this schoolchildren not to play about by the roadside or in the middle of the road or sometimes standing right You know the thing is he is given the fare to go to school and back home He gets into a <-/>a bus maybe a yellow bus or any kind of bus And then the child starts <O/> the conductor <-/>conductor finally she finds out that or that's the place I'm going to get off or to alight And then before he waits for the bus to stop or the <ea/>matatu stop she jumps off from this bus This is the kind of thing we don't want So we're asking even in this case to be taking care you should not until you arrive <O/>
<$A> <Ea/>matatu drivers have a habit of blocking buses here in Nairobi and then when they see a police car they really disappear And then after some time the <ea/>matatus are back Is the police trying to do something about this because it's something which they know is there
<$B> Yes we have already taken action There are some places where <ea/>matatus are not supposed to be ferrying some passengers such as Kencom and <O/> bus stages These are places where we don't want all these <ea/>matatus to <-/>to pile up there waiting for passengers We the authority has decided to set aside some places where <ea/>matatus can go according to their route can go and line up for passengers But in such places where in fact in <O/> if these foreigners come for example somebody who comes from uh UK or something in the States he stays in that hotel Ambassador and then he finds all these <O/> people are banging <ea/>matatus calling passengers with the uh toting It's very bad That's why it was decided to <ea/>matatus to be set aside and then buses to follow their own route
<$A> People working in the city centre at times they have a problem of parking and they'll park anywhere maybe Corporal A you can tell us where to park because some people really have a problem in parking
<$B> Yes the problem is one Everyone wants to come to the city centre uh forgetting that we are now cumulating ourselves <O/> Okay the human traffic the motorists when they come together you'll find the condition of that movement is becoming thick So the parking is becoming a problem because of you know there are so many buildings there are so many vehicles there are so many human traffic So this a problem Otherwise maybe that uh we shall be sending our city to Machakos areas like that so that we'll get enough parking At the moment well the problem is not for a person alone it is for a problem to better take care We better obey the laws not causing obstruction by parking <-/anyhowly> you better get to uh bay parking bays or places set aside for a vehicle to be parked Otherwise the problem is very <?/>wide for everybody not only for police officers or 
<$A> But suppose someone sees as an individual okay there is no parking here but I think my car will be safer at a certain place and I'm not blocking any car Then the police traffic department comes and tows the car away Maybe this is a bit unfair for a motorist
<$B> No I don't think the vehicle will be towed away if it has been safely parked It will <-_>it will<-/> only be towed when it has been parked against a yellow lines or a place where there's a restriction an example a place where an ambassador has parked his vehicle Such a place is not equivalent to park It was set aside for a particular reason
<$A> And how much time do you take before you inform a motorist that his car has been towed away
<$B> Well I don't understand your question
<$A> Okay I've found my vehicle has been towed away and I might suspect it is kept How long will you inform
<$B> Find out <O/> As soon as this complaint or the owner of the vehicle is looking for his vehicle We have a <?/>contor room where all these vehicles are towed away and then the commissions <?/>passed there In any case a complainant or a person comes to us for his vehicle straight away we shall find a we take a record as far that person that go to a certain position for your vehicle But normally we <-/>we <-/>we do that for their own safety we don't do this thing for our own pleasure no
<$A> For people reporting to work early in the morning buses have really become a problem and some are forced to hang But at a short distance they're arrested for hanging at the doors What is the main aim of doing this
<$B> No it is not uh uh any to punish member of public but we are trying all we can to reduce uh road accidents An example if uh a child is hanging at the doorsteps I'm telling you for the strong man who is going to push this child can easily lose his grip or her grip and then fall out So when you find a policeman trying to do all this kind of work they're trying to help members of public And it is one way of educating the members of public from now on Otherwise if you only sit and watch I'm telling you people will ride even on top of the roof
<$A> And uh what happens there for the buses which are going very far let's say to Muranga to Nyeri I don't see the same thing happening
<$B> Yes an example I think you'd have said why you have some passengers standing in these buses Well and good According to the licensing officer you must have set aside before passengers in a sitting capacity and a few to hang on in that uh rear inside the bus And there at the same time if the bus is on motion all doors the rear door and the front door are easily closed for their own safety
<$A> There are people who actually go smoking inside <ea/>matatus Yet there was uh a rule actually which was passed that people should not smoke in public places Yet you find others smoking in <ea/>matatus and this is quite unfair to people who don't smoke but the police are not doing anything about it
<$B> No sorry No we are doing something Unless <?/>I've never come across police doing this kind of work but we are always insisting no member of public should smoke in the vehicle or the driver plus the conductor One thing is in a hygienic it is bad to smoke There are some people who are who are not fond of <-/>of hearing or feeling this smell They can easily vomit Once again a person who is jealous enough can find you in a good suit while you are not realising anything he can put that cigarette to an end and then you find your suit being burned Once again for the sake of the chemicals which is which are in that vehicle can easily get burned So we are insisting and still it is a law that whoever smokes in that public vehicle is an offence
<$A> Some of the cars which I see along our roads are very old How do you <-/fine> define an <-/unroadworthy> vehicle because some are very old Is it ten years twenty years or thirty years ago
S1BINT3K
<$A> In tonight's edition of the programme Preview I talk to Peter Nganga of Miujisa Players who directed The Lion and the Jewel a play that has been going on for the last few days and winds up on the twenty-fifth of this month October I have also talked to a few uh artists from Nalin and Naiki Artists and of course as it is your show this programme Preview we shall also bring you our critic Okumba Miruka Stay tuned 
We're privileged in this night's edition of the programme Preview to be with Mr Peter Nganga who is or rather who directed the play The Lion and the Jewel which has been staged by Mjisa Players at the Rahmtula Library Mfangano Street in Nairobi Could you please tell us why you <-/>you chose or what inspired you to choosing this play The Lion and the Jewel by Wole Soyinka 
<$B> Well first of all it's a humorous play it's a comedy and uh it plays very well into the Kenya situation of old versus young and the young elite educated people against the more conservative traditional wise people And uh in this play we see a small a struggle for a village girl between an old crafty chief and this young educated man uh Lakunle So I think basically it was for the entertainment purpose a play where people would come in after a hard day's work sit back relax and enjoy themselves 
<$A> It's only about a week ago when you staged My Husband Has Gone Mad Again 
<$B> Two weeks
<$A> And that was uh about uh or rather some works by a West African author I don't know why you decided to go back to West Africa again to pick on The Lion and the Jewel 
<$B> As against which other part 
<$A> Uh either maybe you could have maybe gone around any other region of Africa and 
<$B> I think looking at West Africa from my own personal experience the authors there have uh well let me say <./>lit literature wise they are more so to speak advanced Or rather they're more the plays and uh novels are a deeper thing For East Africa we have a <./>goo a few good plays but most of them are quite serious plays which you need to sit down and think hard and understand We're basically looking for a very funny play which uh would be accommodated by any kind of audience 
<$A> Are you going to say you're trying to look for something comical 
<$B> Yes that's <O/> I'm trying to say 
<$A> Does that therefore express a fact that uh you got it easy maybe to cast your <-/>your to have your cast in The Lion and the Jewel 
<$B> Not really What happens in The Lion and the Jewel is that it's more or less a straight-forward play Casting was not too difficult We did casting at the same time we were casting for the musicals 
<$A> What 
<$B> Phoenix and Miujisa and during that time we came to I <-/>I was there and I chose my cast gradually but I don't really think we had any major problems with casting We have a lot of young talent in Nairobi a lot of young talent so the casting part wasn't really sort of a problem 
<$A> In your talk you seem to reflect a relationship between Miujisa and Phoenix Players Is there any 
<$B> Yes I would term Mujisa to be a sister company to Phoenix Players actually uh The idea behind Mujisa which is credited to Steve Munesi and Mr James Falkland who uh James Falkland is the <./>direc a director at uh Phoenix Players and actually two of them did come up with the idea of Mujisa uh plus a few other people about two years back and turned it from an idea into reality with the help of many people of course 
<$A> Miujisa is a Swahili word and do you intend to perform any Swahili plays 
<$B> For the moment I can't give an answer on that because I'm really not so sure What I can tell you that we're having a Christmas musical and we're having uh Smile Orange after my production of The Lion and the Jewel 
<$A> Tell us uh briefly what then what has been the response like for the last few days you've staged The Lion and the Jewel 
<$B> Ah slow at first but uh it's picking up You know the thing about theatre is especially amongst Africans we really don't have a theatre-going community uh Maybe because the theatre's out of town or out of reach for their pockets but they come in they watch the play if it's good you know the African situation they spread the word and it's picking up Last few days we really had a good good houses The delight about Mujisa is that it's African and for the Africans such that after the play you actually end up discovering you know quite a number of people in the house and so you're asking them questions They are commending you for the play or criticizing where it's bad and that kind of thing so it's really a two-way process It's us playing to them and them giving them giving us <./>back uh feed-back and that's kind of the relationship we're really trying to develop because it harmonizes both the theatre and the community And in that as long as our production level's high and high quality we hope to get more people integrated into theatre because it's not that Africans don't have money it's just that them and theatre it's <-/>it's never really been one common bond 
<$A> Then how you train as a body to make sure that you will attract and a good number 
<$B> Well paramount of course is quality of our productions they have to stay really high I mean Going Back to Her Husband has gone mad again that was superb and I mean by all standards it was a very high quality production And that is the kind of thing we're going to keep on having Uh I mean you get the actors you get a good director and as long as your <./> play standards are up and the plays are appreciated by the people it's going to come And again it's the actors interacting in the society You're bringing in your friends your relatives And it's African I mean it's just your African village situation You see something good then go and tell everybody about it 
<$A> Monday the twentieth of October will be a Kenyatta Day The group <name/> Artists will be staging the play Born to a Lesser God at the Kenya National Theatre And now we are very privileged to be in the studio with uh Angela Mambo who is directing this play and also Katrin Karia who is producing this play Now Angela Mambo how did you go about casting 
<$C> uh What we did is we chose the cast from the thirty members we are and we gave privilege to those who have not performed in an earlier production because we like everyone being part of the group so we want everyone to be involved in the production So we had an audition and chose the best from the whole group 
<$A> Maybe Katrin Karia could tell us what it is all about to be Born to a Lesser God I mean what does it talk about I mean what is it telling us 
<$D> Okay The play now the name Born to a Lesser God is actually a question We're asking this Are Africans born to a lesser God Now because uh like you see we <-/>we Africans today we seem to be like so pressed by the Western who economically politically culturally we've been following their fashion It's as if we've stopped kind of like thinking Now we're asking are we Africans are we lacking something compared to them Are they better than us as we have to just follow their ways and something like that So through the play we say that we are actually not born to a lesser God Yah
<$A> <#/>Now Angela Mambo how have you gone about this because uh what are the key issues you're bringing out in this play apart from what she has mentioned because she has just outlined it 
<$C> Okay Maybe I would say the main things Okay It's expressed through three students It's actually set in a <-/>a school and it's expressed through three African students It's a talent school I would say It's expressed through Africans three African students who are not allowed to do what they have as Africans and only get uh they only get praise when they do something Western than what is African 
<$D> The African the other <-_>the other<-/> students in the school who are now who are foreigners now they're like money civilization Now these names are symbolic Now these students oppress these African students They don't allow them to be themselves Like uh the school is an art-school actually So like you can see there is a music student there's a student who draws something like that So like you can see this foreign student telling them Sing this song or that's not good and something like that 
<$C> We have the names which are symbolic and which will tell you what we are talking about and uh what the students do everything the students do is symbolic as in Africa as a whole and the Western world 
<$A> What are these names that are symbolic maybe you could mention a few 
<$C>- Maybe there's money civilization
<$D> Asina despair for the African students and dignity Okay will come and then he tell the head and say that we are not born to a lesser God Okay Now throughout the play they're talking about this talent show Now it's a show which is held every year by the students at that school Now in that talent show is where they show what what you've been working on throughout the whole <./>school school-year So now in the talent show you see that the African students perform very well Now that's how we come to the point 
<$A>  That's how you come to the point And that's are you trying to say that's the climax 
<$D> Yeah 
<$A> And that uh the Africans
<$C> How the Africans perform according compared to the Westerners 
<$A> Eventually the Africans come up the best 
<$D> Yeah or just as good if not if not uh better
<$A> Just as good if not better 
<$D> Yes that's what I say 
<$A> Now have you had previous scripts before 
<$C> Yes we've performed one play which was in March It was Ultimate Weapon written by the same writers Pauline Njogu and Ann Wambugu Yeah we performed it in March 
<$A> And uh are you just dwelling on original scripts or do you have do you intend to adopt a few scripts 
<$C> No we intend to keep on original scripts 
<$D> We encourage that 
<$C> Mainly from the group mainly 
<$A> How many members are you presently 
<$C> We are about thirty members 
<$A> It's quite a group <-_>it's quite a group<-/> Is it <./>on only made up of ladies 'Cause so far you have not any gentlemen taking part 
<$C> No we have 
<$A> You've not told me who's taking which part and
<$D> Okay The African students 
<$C> Yeah the African students: we have Pamela Asina which is being taken by Jackie Kiarie we have Despair by Robert Kioko and Dignity by James Mwangi And then as the Westerners we have Money which is being taken by Katrin Karia and civilization by Irene Irene Njau And then there's Principle which is being taken by I Angela Mambo and Uncle Amani by Charles Nulunga 
<$A> How do you get uh these roles so well done as a director and you're also taking part as one of the cast Angela Mambo 
<$C> Okay what I do is I have a co-director as when I'm doing my part you know normally we take individual characters for the time being and then when you combine the whole play then I get my co-director to do it for me Yeah
<$A> Thank you very much I've been talking to Katrin uh Karia and Angela Mambo from Nelin and Haiki Artists who have actually concentrated very much on the production of original scripts and staging of the same scripts They start off or they take off on the twentieth of October which is just by the doorway with the play Born to a Lesser God And the play runs soon up to the twentieth of October Nice time 
S1BINT4K
<$A> In your experience at the University of Nairobi have you come across cases where the wardens help the student to cope with a degree choice that he or she has been given 
<$B> Yes it does happen uh not often but it does happen You may have a student who was who wanted to do for example law and uh they didn't make it you know in <-/>in terms of the points that they they got at the end of the examination and uh they were for example given uh a BA uh programme to pursue and they feel all the time that they wanted to pursue this so they would come to for example to a warden and ask what exactly they should do They find it very difficult to adjust to this other uh degree that they had not chosen and uh usually what would happen is uh a lot of counselling goes on to this so that the student does not waste time thinking about something that they cannot be uh given because of the problem of the points uh and being encouraged to take uh what they have been given not to give up and to uh <-/>to <-/>to realise to try to realise uh uh a different kind of goal with this degree that they have <-_>that they have<-/> been asked to you know to <-/>to <-/>to pursue which is a BA General and with that you <-/>you know a warden can advise the student on what to do They can pursue law for example at a later stage you know or do something that is you know that has a legal uh perspective later in life or to be quite satisfied with what <-/>what they <-/>they will be given in the <-_>in the<-/> BA uh degree so it <-/>it varies and it depends on the severity of the problem and the way the student is taking it 
<$A> What about the peer pressure Is there increasing peer pressure amongst the students so that uh some of them fail to cope with the degree programme because of the peer pressure amongst the 
<$B> Yes you see all these most of these students are in their adolescent stage and uh they are all undergoing uh quite a turbulent period of their lives They can be very stressful uh if for example they do not have a group of peers which is supportive in <-/>in the sense that uh if they selected for example uh a degree programme which their friends you know did not select they feel out of place and uh one needs to give them a sense of belonging you know to <-/>to wherever they have been taken So this peer pressure can be of a homing to some students so I wouldn't counsel for example in explaining what exactly you know goes on what they would become uh by taking this other degree which was not their choice and helping uh also with handling the other you know the other friends the other peers so that they are supportive and facilitative to the other to <-/>to this particular student who has a problem and uh we have found that to be <-_>to be<-/> quite useful uh when uh peers are counselling each other you see
<$A> Do you have a problem with the parent <-/>the <-/>the <-/>parent of a child who may not want their child to pursue a certain degree course but another one Is there that kind of pressure in the universities 
<$B> I believe it is there  but it usually doesn't filter into the halls and it is handled at the <-/>the administration uh uh place you know They would go there and these things would be explained to them uh so the for <-/>for example the <-/>the administration registrars would explain to a particular parent uh the problem that may be with their student you know that will bring problems to the student as they try to pursue whatever degree it is So there is that kind of thing uh but the parents are <-/>are guided and they are also you know it is explained to them what exactly uh does happen and what has happened and what would happen in the future you know they are also guided because many of them may not even know what uh this all these degree programmes are all about and all these things are explained to them by the administration 
<$A> You said that the warden <-_>the warden<-/> is an academic uh member of staff is there a reason for that 
<$B> Yes there is a reason for that because uh it is believed that this person who interacts with the students in the classroom is also you know suited to interacting with them elsewhere which is in their halls of residence so there's <-/>there's continuity in the helping process and in the counselling so uh a warden who is a teacher who is a lecturer or a professor for that matter they know the problems that the student is having  in the classroom uh which might interfere with life in the hall so they are best-suited to deal with the problem because they already know the person and uh they can follow the problem you know even in the place of living So it is quite useful and it <-/>it creates what you might call an enabling <./>en environment for <-/>for this lecturer to deal with whatever problem might arise uh with a particular student 
<$A> When you are talking about the support services which the student is given at the universities you mean church chaplains what kind of a support service do they give exactly 
<$B> The chaplains uh We have three uh kinds of chaplains we have a <-/>a protestant chaplain a muslim uh chaplain and a catholic chaplain They deal with the different faiths because we have all kinds of uh students with a <-_>with a<-/> different faith so they are catered for in that way They also have their own counsellors you know in the <-_>in the<-/> chaplains so they come they listen to students' problems as they <-_>as they<-/> arise They may not necessarily be problems to do with faith They may be problems that uh have come from the classroom or from the hall or from the games field It really depends uh and these people you know listen to the students and if they cannot handle the problem they would also get the warden and they <-/>they can have a conference with the student and try to help They may even get the <-/>the games person or the medical person or the person from the dean of students' office and they uh you know try to help the student as a group you know when they try to understand the <-/>the student's problem that way
<$A> And you also said that uh some of the students are young they're adolescents and have those emotional problems besides their academic work which is so different from the school work that they were used to in the high schools Those who have to cope with emotional problems who helps them to cope with the emotional problems that they face in the university where they're interacting between sexes and within sexes 
<$B> uh This is a very uh tricky problem and <./>ver <-/>and very complex As I said earlier these students are in the adolescent stage which can be very stressful It can be tension creating and you need to create an environment where the students the student does not feel alone you know while solving problems and <-/>and so on whether they are of a personal nature or of you know whatever other kind We have encountered some students who have very supportive parents for example and therefore they're very mature in the way they deal with uh themselves their <-/>their own bodies for example uh the the problems that come because of physical development uh mental <./>develop development and so on Their parents are very supportive and we actually we encourage this that parents become very involved emotionally involved in their you know children's development you know emotional and otherwise because we have found that kind of student also helpful in solving the other students' problems you know We would invite a mature student to help us help another one who is distressed uh These problems as I said can be very complex Some are overwhelmed because uh they really don't know how to deal with the <-_>with the<-/> situation you know particularly when it is in of an emotional uh kind We therefore uh befriend the student you know and try to help create a helping conducive environment and this would mainly be in the hall so that the person does not feel that they're the only ones in the world having  this problem We give examples of people other people who have gone through whatever the problem is They have come out of it you know unscathed and <-/>and so on and the student therefore learns that they're  not the only ones with this particular problem So it it may uh really depend on <-/>on the student the support they get from their parents and also from their former schools teachers headteachers for example who have also been very useful in many ways uh in helping these students to grow up Their personal goals becomes  very very useful uh if it is mature uh at the school situation before they come to the university and uh you know when we get a student who has for example been a prefect we <-/>we <-/>we find differences between that student and other students who were just following because they are usually very mature and in the way <-_>in the way<-/> they deal with <-/>with themselves and with the students in the <-_>in the<-/> halls of residence for example 
<$A> I think mostly there's a lot of uh time a lot of freedom and the student is guided only by the degree programme itself and there's a lot of time for them to do all kinds of things Do they face problems in coping with this freedom because they are coming from an environment where they were totally protected by in the high schools especially the boarding school to an environment where that protection is not there  so is there a difference as they transcended from school children into adults
<$B> Yes there are there are problems in time management There`s so much time that some don't even know what to do with it uh and they are so free that uh some cannot really apportion the day properly You know they can they're so free that they can sleep the whole day and not come to class you know That option is there but it is to their disadvantage and we tell them so They <-/>they are given lectures all the way from when they come the first day to the university by the <O/> <O/> and it is followed into the halls by the wardens the chaplains come in the counsellors come in the doctors come in and so on and we <-/>we help them to <-/>to you know to apportion the day for themselves There are very many lectures for them to attend and they have to do that in time you know If they go thirty minutes late to a class it is to their disadvantage We explain all this to them If they sleep the whole you know the whole day and they're active at night which sometimes does happen then it is also disadvantageous so we explain all these things uh during their entry to the university I should have said at the beginning that when they come into the hall for example they themselves uh elect a house committee which is composed of the students themselves and they <-/>they would have uh a chairperson of their choice and the warden would be there to oversee what happens So if there's a problem in the hall for example they report it to this person who then uh takes it to the warden or it comes through the custodian because there is an intermediary there and uh the problem can be solved within no time uh because it could depending on the problem it could even be a bulb if there's no bulb the <-/>the student needs a bulb then they go to the custodian and that fits the problem itself It's only when it is for <-/>for example a problem with a social need or psychological need where the warden may be called upon to deal with that uh situation 
<$A> Are there some degree programmes which are more taxing than others so that there may be some new students who can afford to sleep the whole night and the whole day because of their work load Are there differences 
<$B> In general a university student should be fully occupied you know uh the whole day because there's a lot to be done 
S1BINT5K
 <$A> Let me first of all even say or one of the <-_>thing<+_things> that you have seen that tribalism has been even within the university and in most African universities and uh this is a very sad thing because even uh before there was a change and uh I can talk of the University of Nairobi We had a chairman of the departments for uh several years They're self-appointed or appointed by a chairman of the departments And they used before uh you know twelve years fifteen years and so forth And they had a tendency irresistible tendency to uh appoint lecturers from their own ethnic background to the detriment of other even qualified lecturers uh from other areas And if you look at even African uh universities there is that tendency also among the intellectuals to practise that What we need we as intellectuals should appoint people on purely merit And this should be from all ethnic groups 
<$B> Dr Mulindi what is the role of an intellectual in society
<$A> Well I think the role of an intellectual in a society first and foremost is to think and find solutions to problems that are facing our society That is the role of an intellectual Now society pays intellectuals to think to find solutions to problems And there is no society which you can develop without intellectuals That's why we have schools That's why we have uh institutions of higher learning And if you look in some particular countries you have even specialized institutions for particular types of solutions of problems facing a particular society So there is no way that a country can do without intellectuals
<$B> Okay okay point taken but in your view Dr Mulindi has the Kenyan intellectual done something uh to help this country at least get rid of tribalism Have you played that role yourself You are an intellectual There are several other intellectuals we have in this country Here we are talking about tribalism and uh the <-/>the <-/>the bad things that go with tribalism What have you done
<$A> Yeah I mean uh there are some intellectuals who are concerned about this problem That is why we are talking about it and discussing it And uh some of us have had to write quite a lot about this issue and uh to educate the public on <-/>on the role of intellectuals in assisting the uh <-/>the country in understanding the aspirations of the people and trying to guide them I mean first and foremost that is the role of the intellectual And also of highlighting some of the limitations of uh those that may disgrace or <-/>or uh uh go aside in practising uh those issues that we think that are a detriment for the well-being of uh this society 
<$B> In nineteen eighty-nine uh you talked about uh I think you know something about the evils of tribalism Is that the time when we realised tribalism was <-/>was at its peak
<$A> Oh yes I <-/>I noticed that uh it was at its peak and uh I predicted with uh <-/>with quite accuracy <  what is happening right now and what was bound to to happen What I predicted is that uh in African societies and in Kenya included uh various pressure groups tend be organised on tribal lines And you know uh uh pressure groups in Africa are intellectuals amongst uh you know other uh uh participants And I saw the tendency that to organise people on tribal lines was a very dangerous thing that can destroy the unity of this nation uh which you know has paid uh a lot of uh cost for development I mean we managed to be united
<$B> Have you done any tangible research to support what you're saying I mean are you limiting yourself to Kenya or do you have other countries in Africa in mind 
<$A> I have all other countries in Africa but that I can give example I can give an example from Nigeria I mean you see one particular tribe voted that it was above all And because of the Yoruba the colonial setup you had people from one area enlightened And they thought that they had the monopoly over everything And you know this has brought down Nigeria Uh you know very well uh the writings of uh you know Chinua Achebe What has gone wrong uh what is wrong with the Nigerian You know the writings of Wole Soyinka the <-/>the Nobel Prize winner Uh if you look at Uganda uh because of also the setup the economic setup and the colonial setup we have one tribe uh being uh ahead of others uh uh particularly the Bagandan They thought that they were entitled to everything and monopolized everything to the detriment of the uh Ugandan people the majority of the Ugandan people And this has brought out a lot of uh problems in that country I could go on even and name the examples of uh
<$B> Yeah there are several others
<$A> Yes
<$B> But now uh how can we then tackle the problem
<$A> I think first
<$B> Because it's <-/>it's easy talking the way you and I are talking now But what are intellectuals doing about it And is it the problem of the intellectuals only Is it a problem for everybody And does language play a role
<$A> Indeed language plays a very important role in <-/>in uh tribalism And the intellectuals must enhance uh common language uh When people have one common language they have a problem of understanding themselves And if you look at those societies which I've mentioned one is language uh Let me give you an example Our neighbours here in Tanzania
<$A> Yeah
<$B> uh One of the <-_>thing<+_things> that they have done and why really uh I say that they are ahead of us is they managed to unite <./>Tanaza <./>Tan <./>Tan
<$B> Tanzania
<$A> Tanzania For the common purpose of speaking one language which is Swahili 
<$B> That's Kiswahili
<$A> And in the villages and <./>every everybody feels he is a Tanzanian We still feel I'm a Luo I'm a Kalanjin I'm a Kamba I'm a Kikuyu You know language plays a very important thing
<$B> Right
<$A> So intellectuals must enhance the unification of uh this nation by one enhancing uh Swahili and English as principle medium 
<$B> You could have a point but look at the case of Somalia I think they use uh one language That is Somali But how come uh We've seen uh things since <O/> disintegrate
<$A> No no no The <-/>the question of Somali is quite complicated
<$B> Yeah but they have one language
<$A> They<-/>they don't have one language They have a colonial setup You know very well the <-/>the German setup They have the uh <-/>the Italian setup and uh they have also the French setup And uh with this built up on the colonial setup the various ethnic groups in that particular area have had that advantage to the detriment of others depending on where they went And this is one of the <-_>thing<+_things> that has caused a lot of animosity amongst the the Somali people Although they speak one language there is that disparity there is that uh unequal development unequal opportunities for everybody And being practised by one tribe
<$B> So in your view uh Dr Mulindi You are a psychiatrist in your own right Right 
<$A> Well uh I am a psychologist
<$B> You are a psychologist Well uh why in your view as a psychologist should some communities feel superior to others Why
<$A> Well uh I think it is first uh because of uh the colonial uh setup and secondly to the large number and thirdly because of the uh material wealth that might be <O/> That's one thing and the intellectual capacity that <-/>that <-/>that they may have But if they have what I am saying is that they should see it in terms of uh equal distribution of nationalism There is no way in Africa one tribe can uh uh dominate or impose itself to  the majority It does not work It has not worked anyway It's not going to work
<$B> So uh back to intellectuals We talked about intellectuals and the impression one gets is that uh intellectuals are the sort of people who should be thinking and help solve problems But it does appear we have uh what I would call illiterate intellectuals Is there something like that We have some intellectuals who are actually illiterate
<$A> Yeah I agree There are many people uh in this society who might be illiterate They are educated but they lack wisdom Now you know it's one thing to have a Ph D or to go to university or to come but it's another to understanding the people And that's why I am insisting that the psychology of understanding your people is crucial One must understand uh uh people's aspirations motivations sense of direction and uh limitations And as an intellectual one must guide his people There are many things which are going wrong in this country and intellectuals never had a say They never guided uh uh the majority of the people They never showed They <./>nev They never identified with the communities to understand the problems Uh well I have had the opportunity of of serving on the National AIDS Control Programme and I have run around the whole of this country And that has taught me a lesson that I don't know anything I have to learn about my people I was <-_>I was<-/> educated in Europe like <O/> world our education system is basically from uh uh you know <./>Eur abroad or based uh on uh teaching from Western universities Right But how much of this is relevant to our people to understanding our people
<$B> It is amazing Dr Mulindi you are interested in subjects uh which we cannot find solutions to You are interested in AIDS and here you are talking about tribalism and you don't seem to be offering a solution Now what uh is that the sort of education we get Or where we get educated Uh Does the fact that we get <-_>we get<-/> educated out of the country have a bearing on the way we think about our uh communities
<$A> Oh yes
<$B> I I'm asking uh should we allow our children to be educated outside Kenya and if we did would that mean that they would uh be alienated to the extent that they will not even care about uh matters concerning them at home
<$B> Oh yes oh yes uh One of the thing that you need to do is uh first and foremost is that our children for the first degree it is if it is recommendable is that they should get it here And then they should go on abroad for <-/>for specialization in those subjects or fields that cannot be offered here locally uh A lot of effort must be made in that direction One other thing is that as you said that if you are trained in a particular country you have a tendency to think in that framework And what we have seen here in Kenya is that we have many people who have trained abroad hoping that they can solve Kenyan problems from a different perspective without understanding the people that they are working with And this is why things are failing  
S1BINT6K
 <$B> The group's main objective is to portray women positively through literature 
<$A> Positive portrayal of women is that stories which say it as it is you know we all know that the women are actually the ones who are feeding this nation that the women do so much Women are the <./>ag agriculturalist women are everywhere but when it comes to <./>p uh uh portrayal or when it comes to taking credit we don't get credit What we are trying to do is gradually to tell the women here you know the work that you are doing is very very important You are getting a raw deal not in a bad way but just to sort of sensitise them make them aware
<$B> Asenath Bole Odaga coordinator of the Kenya Women Literature Group Asenath started by writing for children then for the youth and today she's a novelist
<$A> My last novel is called Riana It's about a young girl who leaves school because she's annoyed Her father has let down the family and then she gets married and then from there all sorts of things happen to her And this is a true story about a young African woman
<$B> A story like that one what kind of message uh do you intend to portray to the readers and who is the audience
<$A> The audience obviously is not just the women but all Kenyans men and women because as we say we cannot change the <./>treat the treatment of women in our literature unless we sensitise the men also so my story really is not just meant for young women or for women but it's meant for everybody because women don't live alone in this world We live with men and they also need to know our feelings what we feel about the traditional treatment of women and then of course we try to influence them make them sensitive about it
<$B> How much do you see literature women's literature contributing to influencing this kind of change
<$A> I think quite a lot because for the last thirty years I would say very few women have written really to try and change give women a new image because what we have now is that in the literature which is written by men women are either portrayed as <-/>as <-/>as prostitutes or as <-/>as rebels or as serving the man not <-/>not really We never come out in our real role yet we play so much role  so many important roles We do so much for the society into that and to the development of <-/>of <-/>of our <-_>of our<-/> country So I think <./>th this will make a change In fact already there is one uh some change I remember Achebe's last uh novel The Anthills of the Savannah The treatment Achebe accords the woman there the main not the main character really but one of the women character  there is really commendable but still I quarrel with him because instead of The boyfriend has been killed okay but instead of the woman remaining to stand alone there's a man there is another man hovering behind there a son a brother a father a husband or somebody but a man must always be there Yet we have today in this country many women who have brought up uh full-grown families on their own doing their but that is never really you know projected
<$B> The Kenya Women Literature Group uh does not bring together women who can write stories only but also women who can tell stories to others for them to be written
<$A> We would have a group where grass-roots women would come together tell their stories Those who can write would write it down Those who cannot write will also tell the stories to somebody who can write Then we would have it written down And so far we have uh two volumes We have had two volumes The first one has got four <./>b stories two traditional stories or narratives and two creative stories and the <./>nex the second volume has got ten stories five narrative and five creative stories and these are stories by grass-roots women some women who have who don't know how to read or write but they told these stories to their sons or to their children who know how to read and write who wrote the stories down sent them to us and we advertised for these stories and we received close to a thousand stories We read through them selected ten which were the winning ones and it is from this ten when we called the women there was going to be a prize to be given The day we called them we discovered that some of the <-/>the <-/>the authors are illiterate but they are very intelligent women and this was very very encouraging We thought we'd do more of this Now what we want to do is to expand that we will have a maybe groups in every region a group consisting maybe of twelve women and they <-/>they <-/>they will have uh a region maybe a district They will have someone also I mean several uh groups in a district and they will write They give it to somebody in the district to read the stories The good ones will be passed to the head office of <./>Ke KWLG and if they are very good we will have them published but we think that we'll now move away from advertising for the stories to come Instead we'll just have the women writing all the time They write in their groups The stories are read and are sent and are <-/>are <-/>are <-/>are <-/>are are uh selected The best ones are read Then we'll also have reading reading days in the districts when uh women can in their region or even in location they call everybody together and they read some of these stories
<$B> Asenath Odaga illustrates what would happen in a reading session through this creative story in which
<SA>  A man actually sent this his second wife a young wife away because the wife has got just six daughters and no sons So she is sent away but she doesn't Mumbi doesn't give up Mumbi continues to work to be everywhere All the building sites in Nairobi everywhere Mumbi carries things on her back in  her head everywhere to sell and take her daughters to school Mumbi takes the daughters to school They learn They get jobs They are working They have things uh a little house for Mumbi Now the man who sent her away many many years ago now old and sick limps back into her life and then we tell these stories to the women and said <ea/><O/> <ea/><O/> if you were Mumbi what would you do And then there starts a very hard <./>a argument and uh discussion Some women say I will never have him back because he left me when he was young He is coming back for me to nurse him back So these are some of the kind of things we are saying We are saying you know you are a woman you are working very hard so you must know that <./>i-at least if it wasn't for Mumbi the mother of these girls these girls would not be there They'll not be doing the work they are doing One was a nurse One became a teacher One became a trader and so on and this part of development and also they're developing the nation So this is the sort of thing we are <-_>we are<-/> teaching them and again we believe that we have to portray the women in a more positive manner that somebody might say that oh if the husband was beating her and so on she should have stayed in there She just went away to<-/>to <./>pros prostitute herself but she didn't She worked very hard with her children 
<$B> The books published by the Kenya Women Literature Group are sold through women's groups either to the group or to individuals
<$A> If we <-/>we sell them to the women as a group then the chairman of the group keeps them and other members come and borrow them just for paying a shilling  They pay a shilling and take the book and we have found that children and men borrow these books more than women and in this way we are starting what is known as home library and this is very useful especially during the holidays The children come borrow the books return them Whatever money which is collected is used to buy another book and mind you these books are in the local languages The first volume is in ten languages We have a book in Gikuyu in Luo in Kamba in Taita in Kisii in Maasai in uh eh <-/>in Gikuyu in Kalenjin English and Kiswahili Those are ten books So women speaking these languages can pick up any book and they are also cheap We are selling those books only for twenty-five Kenya shillings per book
<$B> Is that representative enough of all the languages spoken in Kenya or do you intend to move onto other 
<$A> Oh we intend to move on We even have a translation in Embu in Turkana and in uh Meru What we are waiting for What we are looking for is money Immediately we get a little money we use it to <-/>to publish a book in any language because we want as many women as possible to read these books and uh of course uh we will continue Uh we hope that all women will have stories ready to tell We will start branches everywhere in Kenya so that we can have them in regions and we hope this will also sensitise the women they will learn go more to adult literacy classes If we find that there is another a group has got another literacy class then that group gets five books free of charge from us to encourage them to learn to read
<$B> Is there anything you can do maybe to assist those women who don't have literacy groups and uh they should be reading your books
<$A> We encourage them Those who don't have  when they meet they get one of them who can read to read the stories for them and then they have discussions 
S1BINT7K
 <$B> It might <-_>it might<-/> in the sense that if you lump them together with the critics of the day uh who made the day during the <./>the cabanistic era 
<$A> Yes
<$B> they might have very well said well we can't touch that
<$A> You see <-_>you see<-/> we have reached a stage when we must accept where we have to accept that we were colonised and having been colonised you know the <-/>the use of English language is a consequence of that colonisation If I begin to write in my mother tongue and I have tried by the way uh with the you know some difficulties but again the readership is such that they would rather read me in English for some strange reason than in Ki-Maragoli
<$B> So a writer does respond to the needs of society 
<$A> Exactly 
<$B> Rather than his own inner needs
<$A> Yes a writer has to uh respond to the demands of his audience But at the same time he can cautiously try and alter those demands And so uh I'm challenged to continue writing occasionally in my mother tongue uh because I <-/>I want to alter the attitudes of <-/>of <-/>of my writers particularly the <-/>young young writers So when I write in my mother tongue it is for children 
<$B> Uh perhaps then that takes us into this area of uh <-/>of literature in the school curriculum
<$A> Right
<$B> Today I understand it is trendy to talk about integration of language and literature What exactly is this integration
<$A> I think there is a false notion that uh if you integrate uh English the study of English language with uh literature the two will enforce one another But you see what the proponents of this school of thought are forgetting is that literature serves a larger <-_>a larger<-/> objective than that Literature uh helps us to try and understand other communities And we want to learn Caribbean literature We want to learn uh oral literature We want to learn other peoples' literatures and so on We should never uh fall into the pit of appending our literature to a certain language discipline It is wrong
<$B> It doesn't appear as if it is a threat to literature departments within <-/>within Kenya for example within Africa in the sense that language is threatening uh to take away the place of literature in the curriculum
<$A> I don't think that <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the scholars who want the two disciplines separated are feeling threatened and uh that their jobs will be taken when the merger takes effect 
<$B> Or is it <-_>or is<-/> it in fact because the <-/>the <-/>the writer in Kenya the writer in the developing world forgot how old they were They are hardly forty years old I think independence in this country in the context of development is hardly forty years old 
<$A> Yeah but what would that be have to do with the integration of English and 
<$B> Well I'm coming to that The point is that the writer then took on literature as a tool for sensitising people in directions that were counter the established expected 
<$B> In our own context it is very true that the writer saw his own role as I said earlier in the context of a little god sitting there in judgement and therefore it's one way of ensuring that we give our kids literature that is meaningful literature that is good literature that is meant to educate them not literature that leads them into that rebellious role of a writer seen around walking in rags and walking in bathroom slippers and whatever 
<$A> So are you suggesting that the advocation of foreign literature is to help our children know how to live as our children
<$B> No I I'm saying that uh prescription is good
<$A> Yeah
<$B> And these are little minds
<$A> Yeah
<$B> They should be taught what is good what is desired
<$A> What is good for the Kenyan child is first and foremost Kenyan literature That is what is good for the Kenyan child Not any of these foreign literatures that are flooding uh our <-/>our market for children's literature and being endorsed by some officials
<$B> And yet you are the first to agree that a writer should write in a language they are most comfortable in
<$A> Yes
<$B> One of the criticisms that does arise is the fact that a lot of what is being written today is being written in <-/>in a language that is not complementing the <-/>the student in school and hence the need to prescribe texts
<$A> Yeah
<$B> that expose students to a language that uh <-/>that is as near native as possible
<$A> Yeah but don't forget that English is a language of instruction in Kenya
<$B> It is a language of the colonial master
<$A> In Kenyan schools It is a language of the colonial master But I believe we have the instruments to manipulate this language to our best possible use If <-/>if <-/>if West Africans can do it why shouldn't we do it They created a pidgin which has given them national confidence And that's why I like the <ea/>sheng that is developing now
<$B> Do you have any <ea/>sheng in your own works
<$A> No but in the next one there will be You know because you see <ea/>sheng has given those young fellows the confidence they want They can manipulate this language and they can add on to it every passing <-/>passing day But you see with us we are so rigid rigidly adhered to the Queen's language that
<$B> Received Pronunciation
<$A> Yeah yeah
<$B> That's right
<$A> Yes so that you make a little mistake and you want to go and commit suicide
<$B> But aren't you <-_>aren't you<-/> a believer a firm believer in uh this general adage that if you must do anything you should do it well
<$A> Of course
<$B> And if you must speak English then I'm not saying I should speak English like uh the Queen but at least I should try to speak English in the proper way
<$A> I've been trying
<$B> If I speak Kimaragoli or if I speak Kikikuyu or whatever it is I should speak it well
<$A> Yes but speaking it well doesn't necessarily mean communicating well in it The Queen's English I have been told by those experts is the worst English according to <-/>to them
<$B> Well I think that is something that writers in this country need to get together and do something about I think they feel or they must surely be constrained by this question of language What about your own <-_>your own<-/> books What message were you trying to communicate in your own books and what books are these Which of those books that you have done so far do you consider your masterpiece
<$A> Well I've published Right now I have published thirteen books twelve plays and one novel plus a novella which is in Kimaragoli which I talked about Yeah this is <-_>this is<-/> uh Shrine of Tears which is uh my latest uh publication and it is a novel my first novel
<$B> Well let's just go down the <-/>the line Time doesn't quite allow but I would like you to tell the viewers when you wrote what book and what it said very briefly and uh why you turned from being a <-/>a dramatist a playwright to a novelist all of a sudden
<$A> Well I first published uh a play called The Fourth Trial in nineteen seventy-two when I was an undergraduate student at the University of Nairobi I soon followed that with uh The Married Bachelor uh in nineteen seventy-three Both <-/>both plays uh were addressing the whole question of cultural alienation the aping of foreign values uh within our African uh environment And then I followed that up with Betrayal in the City which as you know people <-/>people call it political but I think that Betrayal in the City is removed from formal politics It deals with social politics you know and it's <?/>enditing corruption and uh true uh corruption immorality and all related uh evils in society I've also written a play called The Successor which deals with the whole question of political succession I'm very worried about political succession on the <-/>the African continent and the infighting that goes before it Uh and The Successor articulates that Then we have Game of Silence which uh I wrote basically because of the style the absurdist approach to dramatic construction That was an experimentation Uh I have a sequel to Betrayal in the City This is called Man of Kafir Man of Kafir examines the whole question of the exiled African leader When he is in exile does he reflect upon the evils the ills he used to <-/>to <-/> <-/>to reach out against his own subjects Does he reform and so on Then finally and most interesting is a play called Aminata which incidentally has very accurately it was <-_>it was<-/> published in nineteen eighty-eight but now has accurately predicted what is happening right now the formulation of new laws to govern uh the inheritance of women to property and so on So I'm quite excited about what is happening now in relation to what's articulated in Aminata 
<$B> Well I think the subject of what you have done and what you are yet to do uh is a <-_>is a <-/> contentious one 
<$A> Right
<$B> It is something that we would need a lot of time to delve into But I would like to wish you success especially in your new endeavour to become a novelist
<$A> Thank you 
<$B> Uh uh I look forward to talking in detail about your particular publications Viewers we have been talking to Professor Francis Imbuga who is a Dean of the Faculty of Arts at Kenyatta University College Kenyatta University
<$A> Kenyatta University 
<$B> I'm sorry Kenyatta University Thank you very much Until next time it's goodbye from us 

<$A> Doctor Okello briefly maybe you can tell us how Kenya Consumers Organisation was formed and why it was formed 
<$B> Well uh thank you very much <name/> uh I would gladly repeat that We've said it so many times and uh maybe now it will become uh the common to a lot of consumers who a lot of Kenyans who listen to us in this programme uh Essentially Kenyan Consumers Organisation was formed to provide the consumers with not only the information about activities in the market place prices of commodities compare them from one shop to another from one market to another and make life a little easier for the consumers who participate in the market place to know where they can get uh goods and services according to what they uh have uh in the form of incomes and so on Again give them the information that was necessary to participate to make decisions effective decisions in the market place out of definite knowledge about the various products and services that are being sold or bought in the market place And so it grew out of those specific concerns that from uh at the moment we are concerned about essentially the same consumer We are concerned about the consumer's protection uh regarding his rights and there are quite a <./>num quite a handful of those rights One of the very basic ones is the right to information the right to education in order to make him or her uh effective in decision making effective in the market place uh when he decides on the basis of information and knowledge to uh buy or sell consume a service or a particular product knowing the consequences knowing positive and negative consequences of his action in the market place
<$A> Who is the consumer
<$B> uh A consumer is literally everybody Institutions government employees government departments individuals individual Kenyans and non-Kenyans and uh they are not just consuming food They are consuming services They are consuming environment and so on So when we talk about consumers in this country we are not identifying our movement with respect to a particular group of people In fact our office is dealing with people ranging from disabled people individuals poor rich if you like businessmen government departments and so on So as far as we are concerned there is no discrimination when it comes to consumer movement in this country or in any other country for that matter Consumerism is such a wide concept now that everybody is consuming some thing or another And everybody that consumes something or another has the right or certain rights
<$A> Doctor Okello you mentioned somewhere that uh one of the major things that a consumer has a right to is information and education And uh given that the whole concept almost the whole concept of uh the existence of the Kenya Consumers Organisation is to uh <-_>is to<-/> educate people where they are ignorant Maybe you can enumerate on how somebody is entitled or has a right to both information and education without compromising uh whatever he's having  equally himself
<$B> Well let me start by uh a simple example If you're sick you go to a doctor and the doctor gives you a piece of paper which we call a prescription and you go to uh a shop chemist shop to buy the medicine The person that mixes it up will read the doctor's description and give you medicine At that time you are sick There's a particular illness and you are prescribed to swallow or to eat or to chew or to suck a particular type of medicine Then when that medicine is being given to you there are quite a number of things that are taking place at that moment The doctor has decided that a particular type of medicine is the best in terms of curing your illness These medicines have certain chemical combinations Your body as human body also has certain chemical combinations and through his training the doctor can tell or he is supposed to be able to tell that if you take this particular medicine it will combine in a particular way so that the ailment you're suffering from is reduced or removed completely and that that particular medicine because it is it was made up of out of certain chemical combinations is likely to react to your body in a number of ways So as a consumer you have the right to know that if I swallow this pill what are some of the reactions that I'm likely to get initially or eventually What are the eventual consequences When I get well is my skin going to remain with certain swelling or what And then on that particular on the label or rather on that particular bottle where the medicine is uh <-/>is you're expected to know as a consumer that this particular medicine has certain chemical combinations that are active what they call active ingredients and these ought to be labelled 
<$A> properly 
S1BINT8K
<$A> The question that comes to mind Abdul every time I talk about Elvis is I don't know how the record buying public uh coped with Elvis I'm talking of his records his uh releases because the first few records we've played It's all right mama Heartbreak Hotel Hound Dog Don't be cruel and Love me tender these were all hits and every other time before you're thinking of something else there is Elvis with a new hit and it's just hitting the charts all over the world 
<$B> You see the case of Elvis is uh coming uh coming uh at the right time You see he came at the right time people were hungry People were you know there was so much happening in the Americas then and the people were yearning for entertainment and good entertainment so here is one person who came trying to unify with his music and uh people were really yearning so they could take it because uh imagine from nineteen fifty-four up to nineteen fifty-six or fifty-seven there were so many releases one after the other so you can call every other month there was something out from Elvis and everything was a golden hit 
<$C> Indeed and something perhaps I'm not sure I think he's uh probably the artist who's released most records today and which became hits in the world 
<$B> To date yah he stands a check with the Guinness book of records of course 
<$A> Now a question Abdul In today's Elvis is one idol who's been accepted all through you're talking of the young and the older generation The young who never knew Elvis today in uh people going out on clubs when a number of Elvis is played the whole uh you'll find a bigger number will stand up to go and dance to it They had some <-/>some types that there's something about his music that pulled the public out to go and dance it out
<$B> That's it You've answered my question because you know you sit back in a club or anywhere in any performance and uh when Elvis comes on stage you know like uh if you're watching the movie and there is a clip of Elvis and you find everybody going crazy you know If you are in a club and somebody plays uh maybe the old rock and roll you know Rock around the Clock blah blah blah but when somebody comes up with a hit of Elvis Presley everybody <O/>even the sixteen eighteen years old because there is some touch in this music you know uh it is like a <O/> touch some magical touch that for generations and generations Elvis will still live on 
<$A> Let's move away from Elvis uh at his time Elvis Presley there are other rock groups I'm talking probably of the sixties when Beatles now were coming up Mickey Jaggers and all that Was there a lot of competition about that time Chuck Berry you know like we said uh
<$B> Yah people like Chuck Berry really they were not uh much of competition Beatles Beatles are Beatles When Beatles came up uh I think even Elvis himself felt uh the impact of the Beatles But he survived through the Beatles
<$C> One thing about the Beatles is they had to perform in America to try and get a feel of what Elvis uh I mean what the public uh views and looks at Elvis Beatles had to travel all the way to America and make a performance to try and beat up Elvis 
<$B> Yah uh Beatles did try that but uh did they They didn't So let's <-/>let's I think uh let's get to little bit of more music some more information March nineteen fifty-seven Elvis purchases uh the world famous Graceland This is the place which has been termed like a historic monument for him April June nineteen fifty-seven uh he released one of the greatest singles All Shook Up and he uh stayed there between eight to seven weeks in the US and UK charts So let's listen to All Shook Up 
<$C> When you talk about music there are a couple of people you mentioned Louis Armstrong uh jazz you talk of Elvis Presley on rock <O/> Jackson on spirituals and gospel Something that to today nobody has tried to take that title from uh Elvis the King of Rock and Roll It's not happened yet
<$B> it's not happened and I don't <-_>I don't<-/> understand why really I don't understand why because there are so many great uh you know rock artists who were coming and going coming and fading but nobody seems to be in today's music you see uh in fact from the seventies nobody seems to be coming with an impact except for Michael you know Michael has created an impact but you know Michael now what does Michael do Michael is into R and B Michael is into rock Michael is into plastic music So you know the title is still uh it's like Otis Redding's title R and B It's still There is no other single of uh rhythm and blues the same with rock and roll the same with Cliff Richard Who has replaced Cliff Richard till today the Beatles Who has replaced the Beatles 
<$A> That's true <./>Al uh Abdul let me take you back did Elvis have any other members of his family apart from mother and father Did he have brothers and sisters 
<$B> No not really uh He had uh he was born There were twins actually He was uh he had Jessie <O/> uh his uh other twin brother but it was a still-born baby So he was all alone and uh I <-/>I strongly believe any uh many people say it's uh Priscilla uh who created uh Elvis into a wreck Some people say apologies to those uh who are really Elvis fanatics Some say it's the drugs I don't believe it's the drugs really but I feel it's the loneliness of his mother because you know if you read some of his older magazines some of his older movies if you watch you'll find him talking to somebody in uh like in one of the movies a reflection or what imagining that it's his brother Jessie <O/> He was he was a <./>lo lonely person and then he <-/>he turned to his mother you know and when the mother went away this man never recovered and gave all the love to Priscilla and when she went away he never recovered again So Elvis really he had everything in the world but uh I don't think Elvis had happiness 
<$C> That's true and one thing like you said he gave love and he gave love to the kids and he gave love to the public uh He gave back to the public what they gave him and one time I read about Elvis bought about uh I can't remember what car was but then that car was a sport car very expensive car and probably one of the few people who owned it Going out into the he visited a supermarket or something and when he was walking back to the car he find somebody admiring his car and uh uh he <O/> the gentleman he says you mean you own this car he says yeah but now it's yours and he gives him the key Just gave it away
<$B> Yah it's true and there is so much there is during this performance uh on stage uh This was from the movie uh Well That's the way it is one of the ushers admired his ring and he just take the diamond the multi-million diamond Take it It's all yours He was very generous He gave so much to the world but what did the world give to him What did his bodyguards give to him What did his associates give to him They wrecked him You know some one of his bodyguards went out and uh went as far as I think marrying the ex-wife The others went making money out of him writing books with all sorts of uh accusations and allegations and all that so this is the world we are living in you know You give so much to the world but what is the world going to give in return So this man died according to me a very unhappy man and he led a very lonely life really Okay let's go down to a little music then we come back to that uh subject Nineteen fifty-seven July his second motion picture Loving You was released uh in the US and featured there this legendary Let Me Be Your Teddy Bear Let Me Be Your Teddy Bear and uh of course uh the <-/>the ladies of course with every artist the ladies go crazy and you had all these teddy bears everybody clinging to their teddy bear And here he was Let him be your Teddy Bear I don't want to be a tiger nor anything else just your teddy bear You tell me who won't accept such an artist
<$C> Indeed and Elvis talking about his performances <O/>like I mentioned earlier there are performances if you attended one of them it's something you'll never forget uh in your life 
<$B> Johnny let me ask you something since we are talking I think we are half way through the through the programme I know you are trying to be a bit uh very cautious in this particular programme because the last programme we did uh many of the so-called local artists and DJs kind of said why was Huck <O/> so hard-hitting to us Let me ask you a question because you are regularly here I come uh I'm a commercial man now I come occasionally Why don't the DJs of today feature artists like this 
<$C> Ah well they done I think Abdul  don't <O/> this programme with you man .But like you say it's probably the <-/>the artist not the artist but the public out there probably the DJs <O/> what the uh public out there want them to play for them 
<$B> How much uh <-_>how much<-/> public really you think honestly <-/>honestly you tell me who would not want to listen to Elvis Is the public <-_>is the public<-/> going to listen to bata bata bata bata throughout uh There is Beatles there is Chuck Berry there is Chubby Checker there is so many uh Charlie Pride This kind of music I think we are lacking it today 
<$A> Indeed now Abdul talking about uh uh you saying of the Elvis and many other artists Let's talk about his airplay Today he still gets airplay all over the world is that true 
<$B> All over the world he still gets airplay Especially on the on the twenty-second of uh August That's his death anniversary All over the world there is a special programme uh some special clippings you could have watched uh CNN uh during this anniversary But I don't know anyway I think we are talking about Elvis today Let's not <?/>heat on anybody but I feel uh we should feature such great artists Otis Aretha Franklin Percy Sledge on and off in our programme because in parties it happens when you go to a party you listen to such music 
<$C> Indeed Abdul uh a few weeks ago a month probably but I think about three weeks ago there were uh they discovered some unreleased material of Elvis Presley uh numbers that have not been heard before and probably that they'll be out in the market soon What did you think of that discovery 
<$B> I just followed it through the papers I just read it through the papers and it was all over the world that some unreleased uh material has been located in his library some uh some in the studios And we're all waiting to see what kind of uh material that was and why was it not released at that particular time and if it is going to be released today is it going to have the same impact Or maybe it will be sympathy buying or maybe it will be as good as what people are waiting for today and then we have a resurrection of Elvis Presley 
<$A> Let's go back to his performances Abdul just for a while uh in his performances uh cities towns uh villages will all come to a standstill when uh Elvis
<$B> the king is in town 
<$A> yes everything will come to a standstill I mean that showed how loved he was by the public 
S1BINT9K
<$A> Welcome to our environment a programme that focuses on environmental development This week world habitat day to be celebrated on second October nineteen ninety-five World habitat day each year provides a chance to look back at the progress made in the previous one year and to look ahead set goals and make plans for the future I talk to Mr <?/>Agu <?/>Okali the director of the office of the executive director to the assistant secretary general of habitat He tells us on the theme of this year world habitat day
<$B> Uh Lucy the uh theme of uh world <-/>world habitat day for nineteen ninety-five is our neighbourhood
<$A> Why did uh you choose our neighbourhood with uh a significant reason for it
<$B> Uh yes uh normally uh world habitat day tries to focus on a particular theme for each year This gives the countries uh a uh <-/>a reference point for organising their observances and uh this year we have chosen our neighbourhood because we believe that the uh salvation of <-/>of uh our cities towns and villages must start in the very smallest uh units which is the neighbourhood
<$A> And now uh did you probably relate that you're having the city summit probably that's what I was thinking maybe that is why you specifically chose our neighbourhood so that we can prepare ourselves for the meeting
<$B> Uh yes uh the way we <-/>we make the <O/> is that uh it is in the uh neighbourhood that uh one begins to uh uh operate as a citizen citizen of the community with responsibilities and rights as well and that these values of uh civic responsibility are the values that will actually uh enable us to address problems of larger uh the larger community We begin from the neighbourhoods and then we move this into the larger city big city setting and uh as you've just uh mentioned all the uh uh main focus of one of the two uh main uh uh points of focus of the conference the major UN conference that is going to take place next year uh called the uh habitat twoconference is exactly the idea of cities in the coming uh century so the neighbourhood idea is one that we start from the neighbourhood and move to the larger city
<$A> Now uh I'm sure every uh town every country is going to have a specific place where to celebrate the day but the UN must have set a particular region a particular uh place for the celebrations
<$B> Uh yes uh Lucy what we do is that uh over the years we have been more or less rotating the locale of the global observance for world habitat day uh last year for example it was in Africa in Dakar Senegal this year it's going to be in Latin America in Curitaba Brazil 
<$A> Now uh uh as we had mentioned earlier on about the preparation for the uh city summit in Taki and you'd been having quite a number of uh meeting going on I'm sure this is all for preparation but what is the feeling of habitat Do you think you are really uh gearing towards the city summit uh in July on transport and communication and other themes that you'd been having
<$B> Uh yes we <-/>we are uh very uh gratified that the response that uh we have received uh from countries all over the world uh in their preparatory activities for the uh city summit uh the habitat two conference and uh some of the meetings are actually sponsored by us but most of them uh not They're the initiatives of uh uh uh uh uh countries and organisations and <-/>and uh municipalities uh each in <-/>in each of the meeting or workshop or seminar we try to relate the theme to what is going to happen or be discussed in Istanbul and uh we try to extract from each meeting a lesson which uh would be incorporated in some of the recommendation for the habitat two conference for example uh one of the <-/>the <-/>the uh uh meetings that we <-/>we all conducted uh this transport and communication uh workshop uh in Singapore uh that you just mentioned uh turned out to be a very uh illuminating conference uh because the <-/>the experts there came to uh a very interesting and you know surprising uh conclusion from our <-/>our point of view uh prior to <-/>prior <-/>to the uh this meeting uh there was an idea that the way for example to look with transport issues and transport <O/> which as you know is a major problem in all the cities of the world particular in developing countries was to build more roads create more infrastructure uh and then you know uh that was supposed uh to solve the problem or help solve it but it was discovered that that is not the case that it is more important to control demand to try to create other ways than simply expanding the infrastructure because the experience of countries that have concentrated on <-/>on controlling the demand and uh creating other options than motor car for example uh that those countries have done better than those that simply widened the roads you know created more uh infrastructure for transport So this is one of the lessons that uh uh we are going to bring to the meeting in Istanbul
<$A> Now uh I'm a bit worried of uh other countries that maybe I do know how you're going to talk of the issue of war in most of the countries right now let's take for example in Sarajevo and the other countries' civil war Here again we are preparing for the city summit How are you planning to talk with such cases
<$B> Uh this a very good point uh Lucy because uh the issue of uh of uh disaster what we call disaster uh management and uh disaster prevention and the this these disasters are not just natural disasters but human-made disasters like wars and civil strife Is one that we are uh giving a great deal of prominence to in <-/>in uh preparations for Istanbul because as you have just mentioned uh uh wars are the biggest in fact destroyers of uh human settlements of what we are trying to build and uh our executive director Dr Ndao has uh uh uh launched an initiative where he is trying to get uh member states to see civil strife wars and destruction as actually a very important component <-/>component of uh of the uh issues of human settlements in the past they were not uh they were separated uh one was dealt with as a peace-keeping or peace-making type of activity as a political activity whereas this was more a developmental What we now see is there is a very uh strong linkage between this and uh as a specific example at one of the preparatory meetings that uh we uh organised for habitat two conference which took place in uh in Brazaville Congo all the African ministers who adopted the uh charter dealing specifically with the issues of uh these wars in<-/> in Africa and the effect on human settlements
<$A> How about the natural disasters the typhoons that come sometimes in the year and clear cities
<$B> yes we have uh as a <O/> we have uh uh uh ourselves established uh a unit in within Habitat that uh addresses uh addresses this uh uh this kinds of problems uh we Habitat has uh had uh long uh history uh of uh of being uh uh offering technical uh expertise uh and technical support to countries uh that have been enough affected by natural disasters as well as man-made disasters as we have said and uh we uh uh are giving uh increasing emphasis to this uh in our work programme
<$A> Now uh <O/> at wild uh <./>the they specifically give uh some uh awards to the people who have played a greater role or rather recognise them for their good work they have done for the environment I don't know if you have that in uh habitat and if not if you're preparing to have such a kind of awards
<$B> Yes uh we do have <-/>we <-/>do <-/>have awards that are given uh you know uh on world habitat day to recognise uh uh countries as well as individuals and organisations that have made a uh uh recognisable contribution to human settlements' development We have basically uh for world habitat day we have uh two uh categories of awards we have uh the main world habitat uh uh awards which are two prizes uh usually one from a developing country one developed country and these uh prizes uh they're cash prizes as well as uh trophies and they're awarded uh uh to specific projects that are considered uh uh uh either ground breaking or to have a very uh significant uh uh lesson for other countries And these uh those uh awards are sponsored by uh a British uh foundation uh called Building and Sociohousing Foundation Uh in addition to these uh two main awards we have a habitat <O/> of honour uh which is uh this is organised uh by and sponsored by habitat itself and uh in there we recognise uh again individuals and uh organisations that have uh made significant contributions to human settlements' development
<$A> Now finally Mr Okali what do you plan of the habitat two
<$B> Uh that's uh that's an interesting question uh because uh I say this because uh uh there are <-/>there <-/>are two in a sense two trends of uh opinion uh one uh one is that uh we expect uh as an institution support by habitat two conference strengthened by you know by the recommendation of the <-/>of <-/>the conference Uh we have uh a different <-/>a <-/>different <-/>point of view has been expressed by some member states or uh uh NGO organisations that want for example to see uh a different kind of institution uh created or entrusted with responsibility of uh implementing uh uh the recommendations of habitat two but uh I will say that uh uh we do expect uh <O/> habitat to come out uh much stronger as <-/>as uh UN uh institution responsible for <-/>for this area but more importantly uh Lucy is that we <-/>we do expect uh and want countries to uh take seriously the recommendations and decisions that emerged from the conference and actually implement these to uh improve human settlements' conditions in on the ground and in their own countries because that's the main objective of the entire exercise
<$A> Mr <?/>Agu <?/>Okali of habitat And as we celebrate the world habitat day habitat is preparing for the habitat two conference in Taki well known as the city summit Madam Christina Egfeld is chief of information and external relation United Nations centre for human settlement habitat She tells us about the preparations 
<$C>
<$A> Now uh probably you can also tell us how far the information has been going have people been getting enough information about the <-/>the Habitat Two Conference you being the chief of information and external relation and you see normally <./>m most people end up complaining that oh we didn't know about the coming meeting and so on how far has you <-/>you know habitat been doing about it
S1BINT0K
<$A> Archives are past or retired records of a given institution that are being appraised and preserved because of their enduring values Now the values of records are of two categories namely the primary values and the secondary values Primary primarily records are instruments of administration and they are initially created and preserved for that purpose or reason In other word records are by-products of human activity and they are part and parcels of man's functions and transactions involving him in that they contain the necessary information that makes it possible for man to carry out his responsibilities in a proper and consisted consistent manner But with the passage of time records acquire values other than administrative They become tools of research in history sociology political science and geneology These values acquired in the cause of time are what we refer to as secondary values 
Now the National Museum of Kenya Archives: The National Museum of Kenya decided to set up an archives programme in nineteen eighty whose main responsibilities are organising preserving and providing reference service on past records to members of staff and to bonafide research scholars The programme also aims at acquiring private papers and documents of individual persons particularly scientists and organisations which have a direct or indirect bearing on the functioning and activities of the National Museums of Kenya The museum runs a centralised archive system in which case all past documents are concentrated at the headquarters Nairobi uh that means even those belonging to regional museums The museum has modern storage facilities such as air-conditioned rooms and so on that ensure proper keeping conditions for the documents so that these documents arrive for use not only in the ongoing research and other functions of the museum but also for posterity 
<$B> Nairobi This week we're visiting the archives department and the head of the department Mr Gideon <?/>Mtwala is telling us more about the archives I'm just wondering where does it begin You as the head of the department what do you really do 
<$A> My job actually is to oversee and supervise the functions of the department by seeing to it that uh records are systematically retired to the depository of the national archives <-/>national <-/>archives uh to the National Museum's Archives and again to see that uh some of the materials which were taken away by our colonial administrators during the time when we were about to receive independence uh we get copies and fill the gaps that have been missing
<$B> Now who decides on what should be archived
<$A> Uh me uh plus the administrators uh and this is based on the history of the materials to be archived and this comes in with the time Because records assume historical significance with the passage of time
<$B> How old is your oldest uh
<$A> My
<$B> material archived
<$A> The oldest material archived that I have uh dates back to about eighteen ninety-six
<$B> And what's this
<$A> These are records to do with the national parks at the coast which were housed at Fort Jesus uh by John Clark
<$B> <-/>Uhuh now how big is your department How many of you are there
<$A> Uh my department at the moment consists of four people uh two of which are now on training at the Kenya Polytechnic
<$B> Do they have uh subjects about archives at the Kenya Polytechnic
<$A> Yes uh the Kenya Polytechnic has a programme on records management and archives administration uh course
<$B> What about uh other universities
<$A> We do also have uh Moi University which has established a <-/>a Faculty of Information and uh other science related uh courses do they have <O/> got
<$B> <-/>Uhum Now tell us about types of records at the National Museums of Kenya Mr <?/>Mtwala
<$A> Now the bulk of the archives in the museum collections are mainly official papers such as correspondences minutes and other proceedings of the various meetings and reports plus photographs and films covering the museum functions and activities
<$B> <-/>Uhuh Now we move on to what you had lined up for us to hear today in the programme
<$A> Yes uh before I proceed I would like to point out here that uh the earliest collection of museum records were transferred to the Kenya National Archives long before the museum established its own archive programme
<$B> You didn't tell us who came with the idea of starting the archives at the National Museum did you
<$A> Not yet uh It was uh although it was uh the <-/>the programme of archives was only established in nineteen eighty the idea of setting up an archive programme had long been felled matter of fact it was felled uh uh in the middle of nineteen sixties when uh most of the research scientists and the <./>wo museum workers felt that most of the documented evidence in the museum had a lot of information which needed to be organised and be preserved so that it could serve uh the ongoing functions and at same time so that this part of history could be transmitted into the future So the idea of setting up this programme was felled long before the programme was started In addition to these official records the following private papers are being deposited in the archives of the National Museums Papers of A.K. <name/> and private papers of A.M. Champion and also private papers of Louis S.P. Leakey and others and also the most popular collection which is the tribal and botanical paintings and photographs of Joy Adamson Many people have asked me the question regarding the relationship between archives department of the Kenya National Museum and the Kenya National Archives Department Well the two are indeed closely related The Kenya National Archives looks after all the past's documentation and records of the <./>rep republic of Kenya while the archives of the National Museum look after all the past documentation of the records uh all the past documentation of the National Museum Now the archives act gives them gives the Kenya National Archives Department <./>ju jurisdiction over all past records created in Kenya on the other hand the museum archives programme takes care only of the museum past documentation and those other papers from private individuals which are relevant to the functions of the National Museum But the museum undertakes its programme of archives within the framework of the same act that is the National Archives Act What that what this means is that the museum and other institutions with archives must send lists of their archival collection to the Kenya National Archives so that the latter is informed of the whereabouts of this valuable information This way the Kenya National Archives can then direct users who visit them to relevant places as the case may be
<$B> Listeners today we talked about the archives of the National Museums of Kenya and heading the department having talked to us is Mr Gideon <?/>Mtwali Next week we shall be moving on to the library department of the National Museums of Kenya in our series know your museums Until then this is Elizabeth <?/>Omolo Have a good week 
<$A> 
<$B> Mr <?/>Mashetti <?/>Masinshula the secretary of the Kenya Oral Literature Association
<$A> In African societies there was no role conflict between the male and the female sex We put this to the KOLA secretary Mr <?/>Mashetti <?/>Masinshula
<$B> First I wouldn't agree that there is no conflict in African society between the male and female gender There's a lot of evidence for example in the field we're dealing with in oral literature of conflict in narratives in myths In myths from certain societies you find that there is always some kind of conflict Men overthrowing women Women agitating for something here and there so I think there is that conflict latent in our societies But why gender now I think the emphasis on gender at the moment has been precipitated by the kind of changes experienced in the modern society We realise that men cannot uh they cannot keep up with the so called traditional roles that they were specialised in initially Society has changed so much that in fact some of the traditional roles let's look at the role of men as warriors do not apply in the modern society There is the police uh there are watchmen who could do that kind of job So men have to take on new tasks which they're been competed with the same tasks are being competed for by women and this calls for some kind of harmonising roles at least finding a way of <./>ins restoring harmony since men feel that women are infiltrating in their traditional places so uh getting into area that they thought were not meant for them
<$A> Now one of the basic reasons for oral literature studies is to preserve unwritten cultural norms Now how has this role been affected by this changing nature of society with the development of say writing and the Western influence
<$B> I think the development of writing has uh given rise to a situation where most of the oral narratives can now be recorded and with the disadvantage that uh you get a version of an oral narrative which looks like the correct one and this in a sense appears to be killing the oral culture where people tell stories and that kind of thing Also the modern changes have made it impossible for the traditional society which used to give rise to a lot of story-telling a lot of observation of what is going on around people and it has meant that uh the new technologies have to react also in a new way to oral material For example we're trying to adapt to modern technology through use of television uh for example recording certain aspects of oral performances on video uh recording them on cassettes also writing books about them I think we're trying to keep up with the modern changes but uh the modern changes have definitely affected the ground on which oral literature was used to survive
<$A> In that present we have a sharp conflict between African tradition and uh Western tradition Now basically the West is winning How are you reacting to this cultural trend
<$B> I wouldn't say there is a sharp contrast I think what has been happening is gradually the African tradition has been adjusting not in a systematic manner to the kind of modern changes uh The way the adjustment had has not been has not been smooth as I'd pointed out earlier uh there are a lot of pitfalls Part of it is because we don't know what new identity to take upon uh I wouldn't emphasise the fact of conflict because somehow people seem to be getting along I think given time given a lot of thoughts given some research and just practical adjustment to the kind of changes we're experiencing and also our own research into our past so that we can know what to preserve within the traditions and how just to adapt uh some harmony will be struck and we'll have something not Western but maybe an adaptation of Western plus our own African traditions
<$A> Now if you look at the whole stock of the culture that is coming in It's from different parts of the world We have from uh from Europe from America from very many other parts of the world and uh looking at the tradition we see that we are having specified and uh limited kind of uh tradition that we are addressing ourselves to Don't you think that the just in terms of numbers the great number of cultures which are coming in will submerge that one of our own
<$B> Uh culture has a way of absorbing a lot of uh cultural trace from other cultures and somehow finding a way of not being completely submerged I think there are certain things about the African tradition that the other cultures we're exposed to will not completely do away with uh I think what we'll have in the end is a synthesis of those cultures and our African tradition but not the complete disappearance of African tradition