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<$A> how would you like one to look at the linguistic competence Putting aside uh the theory by Noam Chomsky and Dell Hymes' idea of uh communicative competence according to you what's the idea of competence Yes
<$B> I think competence the way I understand competence like the way a kid a child can be able to use the language to understand the language and like apply the language to usage as he's been taught earlier
<$A> So in other words it's more of uh the application part of the language 
<$B> Yeah
<$A> So you differ with uh basically you differ with Chomsky's idea that uh linguistic competence is basically that set of rules that is in the child you know uh let alone applying it Right Now I want to look at this I want to have uh this discussion in advanced levels Of course we're dealing with a cognitive level uh if possible at a phonological level that's about the sounds uh orthographic level lexical level roughly and so on Now cognativism basically has to do with the mind as we all know And cognativists are <-/>are interested in explaining the <-/>the underlying motivation of a language and speech Okay And of course talking about cognativism we are reminded of Jean Piaget the famous psychologist Now Jean Piaget argues that a <-/>a child's language development uh basically depends on three main factors The first factor he says is interaction with his environment The second factor he says it is his perceptual and cognitive capacity And the third factor he says it is his linguistic experiences okay Now interaction with the environment uh We want to see how this <./>c are applied can be applied to <-/>to <-/>to <-/>to uh <-/>to what is this called children's literature or the literary text made for the child so that it can help him to <?/>get that competence in the language Now if you talk about interaction with his environment as Jean Piaget says like take for example this story of uh the elephant and other animals it is <-/>is found in a book The Source Stories I've forgotten the <-/>the author The Source Stories Now in this kind of <-_>in this in this kind of<-/> story we have uh we got so many animals okay and then uh the elephant the hare the lion and so on and so forth And then they say that uh all of a sudden it became very dry There was drought all over It was so dry he says he says uh even the palm tree could not produce liquor I believe this should have been somewhere in the coast Now what I'm saying is uh this kind of story explains so many things about the environment It explains uh the purpose of trees the purpose of animals the animals are all named there and that there can be drought in an environment In other words what I'm saying is this kind of story exposes the child to the environment so in a way that child is able to interact with the environment through this story Okay And since uh as Jean Piaget says that uh the a child's interaction with the environment is a basic factor in knowing in a child's developing uh linguistic competence Then I should think uh the literary text indeed helps a child to develop competence in a child unless you want to object Mary anything to say
<$C> With the interaction with the environment uh a <-/>a child not only have the written texts but you have the spoken texts for example we have the child's play and the games that usually have within the environments and some of these songs and games can have could be that repetitive part and they can even have some words that the child at the end of the day will question what they are and it is in his <O/> trying to know what these words are the child will come to improve his competence So the child's competence or the child's linguistic competence can improve through the written as well as the spoken text That's my view
<$D> Okay another addition or rather a question As far as this <-/>this kind of environment is concerned can we <./>s can we say that uh this environment must be the that <./>ki that particular environments in which the child finds himself of herself or is this just in <-/>in any other environment For example uh applying uh I'm referring to a situation whereby maybe an African child okay he's <-/>he's exposed to that kind of environment in which he finds himself Or at another level we find that this text is extracted for uh for maybe a <-/>a <./>Eu <-/>a European environment So at that level which kind of environment have you referred to
<$A> Well I would think uh any type of environment whether immediate environment or other environment Did you think even if you talk if you wanted to talk about if a text is talking about things that are not actually present in the immediate environment of the child it's talking about snow it's talking about uh well maybe some kind of plants that are not present in the immediate environment But you see the child still is coming to learn about these things you see He knows that at least they are present Maybe in future he want to talk about them So if he's been exposed to these kind of things this kind of vocabulary at the beginning then it will be easy for him to express himself I mean that's basically what we're interested in the competence of the child 
<$D> Then I think that in the same <-_>in the same<-/> on the same token I could just ask maybe it is better as far as this cognitive level is concerned Imagine the <-/>the book talks about a problem okay learning from known to the unknown Then I think as far as the environment is concerned it is better to impose or to expose the child to his <./>imme okay to <./>s the stories which come from his immediate environment and then as <./>ti as he continues to learn then you can bring stories from a far off environment 
<$A> Yeah I think that is true Okay now we also talked about okay Jeam Piaget also talks about his <./>percep uh the child's perception and cognitive capacity and his linguistic experiences Now here this is where your point comes in Mr <name/> Uh that uh sometimes uh the child through the text is also exposed to things that don't appear in his <./>imme immediate <-/>immediate environment For example if we talk about the famous <-_>the famous<-/> poem in called the London Bridge It's found on page sixty-eight in this book You know this kind of thing Now the child may not even have seen uh the gold the silver or this kind of <-/>of this kind of things that are mentioned in the text okay Because maybe they are not in his <./>envi immediate environment But we can also note the fact that the child in future might want to use that kind of vocabulary to express one thing or another okay For example he might not have seen gold around but at least he might have seen a golden watch okay So if he wants to say that this watch is made of gold unless he's exposed he the child will have been exposed at the beginning from this kind of thing it will be difficult for him to express himself Okay so Jean Piaget also says that uh children learn language by associating it with context Children learn a language associating with context They also learn a language by associating it with meaning Now as far as this context is concerned I wanted to I was thinking for example in the animal story I told you about the context within that story basically is uh the animal world okay So within that context we have some kind of things uh that uh are expected in such a context for example the name those names of animals the hare the animal and so on and so forth okay So the way in which the literary text this kind of literary text will expose the child to the world improve the competence of the child is that uh when it comes to such a context the child is aware that he's already aware of the kind of vocabulary that is expected the kind of words that are expected in such a situation and therefore he is able to express himself like that When we come to uh uh <./>s since Jean Piaget also says that a child learns a language by associating it with meaning Now for example in this story of the elephant and other animals we're told okay in the long run the animal decided to dig a well so that uh they can have access to water Now all the animals participated in that exercise but the hare as clever as he was did not want to participate in this kind of exercise He said he can survive he can <-_>he can<-/> still survive with or without water okay And therefore when eventually they had dug the well and the water was now flowing the hare wanted to use that water so uh the uh <-/>the animals decided that they would come they would keep vigil in turn they would guard the well in turns so that the hare could not <-_>the hare could not<-/> uh get access to that water Now what I want to refer it to is <-/>is the term keep vigil okay keep vigil So the child may not be even aware of uh the meaning of such a term in the first place okay but he can associate it with the meaning The meaning in this context is that uh uh the idea was to prevent the hare from getting the water okay So uh even though the <-_>the the<-/> child might not know the meaning of this word he can still understand that the <./> m uh the main aim is to keep watch for the child I mean for the hare not to get the water to drink this water Now there is this poem which uh this poem called The Little Fish of The Little Fish That Will Not Do As It Was Bid I'll just read it briefly This poem goes like this Now this <-/>this poem basically is about a little fish and his mother in the sea and it wanted to uh and it wanted to go and okay but it wanted to go and eat uh a fly But you know it was it is that hook <./>whe when the fishermen go to the sea they use the <-/>the flies sometimes they use the flies to as a <-_>as a<-/> bait yeah So actually that fly was a bait and the little mother and the little fish was asking permission from his mother to go and eat that and eat that fly But its mother told her that that is not just a fly but it is a bait you know But this little fish could not did not want did not take heed of this advice and so it went ahead to eat that fly and then it was stuck and it's <-_>and and<-/> so it died Now what I'm interested in <-/>in this poem is uh <-/>is the way in which uh as a text it involves uh a beginning and an ending okay kind of a cause and an effect It involves rather a sequence of events that uh actually culminated into the death of a little fish And when it when we relate this to the child's experience it's like a kind of experience it <./>gi gives to the child is that uh the child through such a kind of a text it learns to it learns to put things sequentially it learns to put things in a sequence that uh things that don't I mean just don't come from nowhere and you know there has to be a kind of a <-/>a beginning a middle and an end that kind of thing Okay I will do the phonological level if you don't have any questions 
<$C> Let me ask something
<$A> Please
<$C> We have some stories with a complicated plot whereby we don't have a flow of ideas from one step to another one <O/> we find that there is that mix up of events How do you react to that now that you have said that the ordering of events like that straight forward plot within that poem will enable the child to put things <./>sec <./>sec you know
<$A> sequentially
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<$A> ... official languages I think that's what you can find in literature on <-/>on <O/> policy uh that's why I referred you to Leitham yeah anyway go on 
<$B> Now we briefly look at uh Kiswahili in Tanzania and then we will compare uh the Swahili in uh Tanzania and Kenya Now we know the history of Kiswahili and how it began maybe uh as a lingua franca between the Arab traders and the African traders along the coast and then uh it's diffused in the interior I think that one we are aware of it So Kiswahili use has started uh becoming uh elitist in colonial Tanganyika that's what I said in my paper The German administrators encouraged the African chiefs who were known as <ea/>akidas to use it as a language that will unify the people in the administration of their policies This was also adopted after Tanzania or Tanganyika became a British colony after the First World War Now during Tanganyika's struggle for independence Kiswahili was adopted as a language of the leading African political party known as TANU Tanganyika African National Union This party was in itself led by elitist Africans among them was Mwalimu Julius Nyerere who are who had uh gone through uh the British I think education system so he was an elitist But when he was picking on the language for his party he decided to pick on uh Kiswahili which was more uh understood by the masses than English or any other foreign language Now at independence of Tanganyika in nineteen sixty-one Kiswahili was designated Tanganyika's national language and in nineteen sixty-seven a <-/>a bill of parliament made Kiswahili the official language of Tanzanian Union So it had now become a union After independence there was the coming in of Zanzibar So the Tanzanian Union in nineteen sixty-seven comprised of Tanganyika and Zanzibar and its language official language became Kiswahili Now Nyerere himself the first president popularised Kiswahili so much as a language of government and administration He decided to make all his public speeches at least within Tanzania in the Kiswahili language And he encouraged all the government officials to use Kiswahili as the language of government activities So as we're going to see is that uh Nyerere's uh political credentials his political charisma had uh very much been promoted by the use of Kiswahili language I think uh we were able even us we were able to hear Nyerere on the radio every day addressing the nation in Kiswahili language after the news from Tanzania which was something very popular So Nyerere himself also as an elite decided that books that were used in Tanzanian education system should be translated into the Kiswahili language I think he even uh translated some Shakespearean works into the Kiswahili language uh an example I think is uh The Merchant of Venice and uh Julius Caesar So he was leading that the books that should be used in the Tanzanian system be it foreign books or books written within the Tanzanian state should all be in Kiswahili language Uh in his uh political philosophy of uh socialism Nyerere also directed that the language to be used in the communes that language that should be used in uh the villages known as <ea/>vijiji was to be Kiswahili language So when Kiswahili is now used in the villages it's acted more as a maybe a unifying language It was going to be uh at the disposal of all the people because the village in Tanzania at that time was actually the base it was acting as the base of the Tanzanian economy So from nineteen sixty <-/>sixty seven also the Tanzanian parliament became uni-lingual after that uh declaration after the I think Arusha Declaration the Tanzanian parliament became uni-lingual It started using the Kiswahili language as the language of parliament The parliamentary debates in Tanzania are in Kiswahili language and most of them are aired on uh <./>ov over Radio Tanzania unlike the case maybe in Kenya where we hardly hear of uh the parliamentary speeches or debates or contributions He also set up translation committees in specialised areas Of course English continued to be used in courts of law in Tanzania until recently but uh with time now there is this gradual use of the Kiswahili language in courts of law in Tanzania And uh right now what is remaining in Tanzania is that English is used formally at the university So at the primary school level at the secondary school level there is more of uh Kiswahili being used in uh <-/>in Tanzania So I want us to maybe look at this as uh a political move Is it a political move Is it elitist as we <-/>we saw uh maybe from the title of this paper Maybe I could ask my colleagues to respond to that Do you see any elitism in the choice of this uh uh language of Kiswahili in Tanzania What are the political implications here 
<$C> <O/> but I could maybe say that uh actually the way we know Tanzania it has so many languages and that uh the <-_>the the the<-/> choice of Kiswahili I may not <?/>know the reasons why Kiswahili was picked but <./>whe when we consider the people who <-/>who actually picked on Kiswahili that initially uh it was the language of uh a political party a leading political party at that time and therefore <./>th that actually brings in the <-/>the political affiliation and that uh Mwalimu Julius Nyerere actually was an <-_>a an<-/> elite and that he picked on Kiswahili uh of course with the reasons that it is going to unite the Tanzanians uh I think up to that there is that political aspect of it and when we consider the people actually who were popularising Kiswahili uh I tend to think it is it has that uh elitists' overtone in it I actually I' do not maybe believe that Kiswahili was accepted uh by the people of Tanzania I've talks earlier that uh Tanzania was composed of so many languages uh I <-/>I do not believe that most of them actually came at a consensus to agree that now they <-/>they needed uh a language to unite them So the fact that it was picked and popularised by a certain group of people I think it brings in the idea of imposition the idea of uh politics and policing in it
<$D> I think uh I <-/>I agree with you to a large extent on the idea that the initial the initial idea of uh <./>i imposing Kiswahili was the to <-/>to be able to communicate and the <-/>the elitists' attitude came in initially But uh gradually as you see the development what happens then that once this Kiswahili becomes the only form that used to be used even uh the level where it's now being used in primary and secondary school as uh official language I think we are breaking away from uh from the elitist attitude and spreading the language to the masses In other words now it ceases to become an elitist uh tool of controlling or rather ruling uh the <-/>the minor uh over that the majority And uh we now look at it in terms of giving information knowledge and power so to say to the entire nation that is the majority So uh it might have started as an elitist attitude but uh if you look at the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the policies that Nyerere was trying to propagate the ultimate goal is that he was trying to break down from this elitist attitude and uh and <-/>and <-/>and <-/>and enable or rather give the power to the people That is where actually this aspect of socialism comes in The socialist attitude was there where there <-/>there was almost an equal sharing of power and of course uh property within society So in order for him to achieve that form he has to break this elitist attitude of what was in the case in Kenya where we had that democratic so to say society where we have people uh grouped according to classes but the socialist breaks this down and uh therefore the way he had to do it was to use this language official language planning <./>po uh policy which uh enabled even the majority to be able to be uh communicating and also own property uh within uh the nation as such I don't know but that's the way I'm looking at it I'm looking at it from elitist to uh say elevating everybody to the same level 
<$B> I think uh the choice of uh Kiswahili language in Tanzania goes back to the colonial times as I said earlier and uh it's had a firm base even before being chosen as the language of Tanzania It was wide-spread in this country however the role of the powers that be cannot be downplayed Fasold traces the languages' colonial legacy the languages' colonial history and I quote End of quote So I think uh we have seen the reason why it was chosen It's had a long history It had uh a base It had already established itself among many people even before it was being chosen I don't know if there is any question again up to there
<$C> I don't know whether the argument was what <-/>what I was trying to reason that what if you look at Nyerere apart from the long history as you were saying Nyerere is actually trying to propagate the aspect of socialism the socialist belief and uh in so doing he is giving knowledge or rather he has to get the whole people behind him rally the whole nation behind him So does this bringing in the elitist <./>atti uh concept in 
<$B> I think it is uh the light in which we view Nyerere as a person Because however much convincing he could have tried to be maybe he wanted to be a socialist in uniting his people in uh setting up a social maybe a socialist society in Africa or a socialist country But uh all in all Nyerere remains an elite He is uh <-/>he's <-/>he's <-/>he's even a doctor So when we just look at his credentials only uh they make him an elite So whichever thing he's going to do we're going to look at him as an elite We're going to look at him as a politician 
<$A> He's an elite that is <./>gra <./>gra granted nobody is uh disputing that The question that he is asking is was Kiswahili an elitist language itself Nyerere <?/>and the English is just as efficient in using English as he is in using Kiswahili If it was the elitist uh uh motivation that he had he would have opted for English Why did he opt for Kiswahili Compare that with Kenya KANU KADU in the fifties during the fight for independence used Kiswahili too didn't they But why did we opt for English as the official language at independence Why So compare Tanzania compare Tanzania and Kenya and then see why Why Kiswahili in Tanzania and English in Kenya That's the big question And that's why that is uh uh uh forever referring it to the socialist orientation of Tanzania as opposed to <-/>to the capitalist orientation of <-/>of Kenya And that's why you were also talking about Fasold's reference to Kiswahili having had a base in <./>Kisw in <-/>in Tanzania So that the choice of Kiswahili as a national language in Tanzania was almost uh a foregone <./>con conclusion And the fact that Nyerere was <-/>was using it an <./>e <_/>an a <-/>an elite himself gave Kiswahili prestige so that it moved if we use this <-_>if we use<-/> this one here Even if it was this a language for unifying Tanzanians Nyerere being an elite himself the head of state and then making the <-/>the language the language of parliament the language of the courts the language of higher education then moved the Kiswahili from here to this quadrant The fact that the learned uh <-_>the learned<-/> elitist Tanzanians are using Kiswahili gave Kiswahili prestige A language can also be promoted by giving it functions functions that give it prestige So it moves from here It's a language of prestige because we have <O_><O/> You see we have what is called status planning 
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<$A> Uh in the case of Prospero who deliberately conjures a tempest to bring his foes from <name/> to the island to the effect of revenge and the revenge is in quotes which he would call justice regardless of the sufferings the victims are undergoing So in the same way uh <name/> revisits the historical trans-shipment of slaves uh to Europe the suffering and the ordeal of inhumanity uh inhuman treatment they went through and the lack of guilt-conscience of the ship captains or masters to the extent that one of the <./>o of the ship <./>cam captains composes a religious song and I quote "How sweet the name of Jesus sounds" We realise that when there is this uh transportation of these people disposed from Milan there is this The captains are actually so They are not guilt-conscious They are not aware of what they are doing Such that there is a captain who actually goes ahead in composing as song "How sweet the name of Jesus sounds" and to I mean to enrich the British religion So uh to them they were in a mission to civilise the world at whatever costs Therefore <name/> uses <./>relig religion and colonialism uh and that is what the world the post-colonial man would review or would view as the religious hypocrisy Okay As a continuation of that point uh despite the torture that is a characteristic of the slave master relationship <name/> exposes dependency of the master on the slave so that Prospero <-/>does dares not uh cannot overstep his bounds in dealing with Caliban because murdering Caliban would be an act of pure suicide We realise that in uh our text there is a <O/> that uh the <-/>the <-/>the there is a stretch uh a place where he says that uh uh killing uh no sorry he says that nor Caliban nor Prospero nor <name/> and so therefore everything is not existing So we realise that uh Prospero himself is realising that he'<-/>s cannot actually exist without the existence of the slave So the slave is part and parcel of him for him to exist And the politics of the island are <./>pres presented as parallel to the state which is <./>ab absolutely run by one man that is Prospero Therefore Prospero has no need of bureaucrats <./>b because Caliban is his friend which means among other things his physical survival He and I quote what Prospero says "But it's <-/>it's we can't miss him He does make our fire thatch in our fire uh our roof and serve in offices That <O_><O/> oh slave Caliban thou art thou speak That's what he says So you realise that he's actually realising the role that uh Caliban plays in their lives So without Caliban they can't exist there Then the suggestion <-/>the <-/>suggestion that <name/> is making here is in a way which Prospero himself <./>s uh saw himself in relation to the immediate neighbourhood around him So in a nutshell we can say that <name/> draws attention to the uh to Prospero's fears of his subjects that is he cannot he is not confident of his position as a master He looks at his subjects as a <./>cha as a challenge So that to deal with that feeling Prospero uses his subjects' past as a weapon to subdue or demand their loyalty Uh and what I mean by this He uses their past You realise that <./>wh uh when <name/> comes to stage uh Prospero is actually reminding him of where they <O/> got them from You know they were not a people they were just children of nature before he came So he actually constantly reminds them of their past Uh we can say that uh as a <./>s as a continuation that <name/> draws another parallel between survival of Caliban between the survival of Caliban and that of the savage that is the deformed and the deformed slaves As Caliban is in the tempest they worked and were rebellious that is the slaves I am referring now to the <O_><O/> You realise that this book is actually referring to is a prophetic word to the colonialism that was to come So I'm saying that as Caliban in The Tempest the slaves were worked and were rebellious and often went wild in the spirits of freedom and were imprisoned and yet they carried on they survived as though they were they had some divinity which made them believe in their capacity to last The next points can uh be that <name/> also draws from the uh contrast of attitude between <name/> and Prospero It is this contrast of attitude towards a common disaster as <name/> puts it in which uh which introduces the noble and compassionate nature of <name/> on the one hand and the supernatural power of the father on the other So we can say that <name/> brings out a similarity between Caliban and <name/> that is Caliban uh <name/> and Caliban have a bond which is not easily broken They are alike in their ignorance and there are parallels in their response to strangers from the world beyond these shores For example uh <name/> is surprised by the fact that Ferdinand knows English language just like Stephano He's surprised when Caliban speaks English <name/> is also adds that Caliban and <name/> share ignorance which is also the source of submission Okay what I'm trying to say is if you have read the text there is a point in which Miranda is actually surprised by the fact that uh that that man can speak English You know to Miranda these people who are actually they <-/>they are they are not supposed to know this uh their language such that he's uh she's surprised when Ferdinand speaks English just as she can So uh in The Tempest you find that Prospero claims to have <-/>to <-/>have equipped Caliban's purposes with language so that without language they wouldn't have been known Uh that is the people who are in the island And for this service he demands gratitude from Caliban who disappoints him by using the very language <-_subvertively><+_subversively> uh to assert his rights and <-/>protests protest domination At this point <name/> sees Prospero's service of availing the aid of the world and the world here refers to language to Caliban as hypocritical gesture in that Prospero only aims at polishing Caliban's utility as his servant You realise that uh <./>Cali as Prospero equips Caliban with the language he <./>c he's equipping him for his own gains so that he may be able to serve him so well Such that to him it's like Caliban cannot acquire beyond what he has actually given him but you realise that Caliban acquires much more such that he uses the same <-/>same language to claim for his rights and possession of the land of the island Therefore uh you <-/>you can say <quote/> " That's a quotation Uh By this uh <name/> reflects the fears inherent in Prospero of seeing Caliban as a challenge and as a possibility and in this he was drawing an analogy <O/> between Adam and God And he was trying to <./>s to bring up uh the fact that by <-/>by <-/>by God uh uh creating an awareness to Adam that there is a tree of life and there's something he actually made a risk such as the it's the risk that Prospero is making in giving Caliban a language such that now the uh the language that he's uh <-/>he's given is he used it he uses it to get what <-/>what he was not supposed to get Therefore <name/> continues to reflect on the centre's mind that is Prospero's <-/>Prospero's view of Caliban as a child of nature who lacks the concept of difference Prospero sees Caliban not capable of recognising the difference between quality uh the quality of Prospero and <name/> between Prospero and Stephano Therefore Caliban is not allowed to distinguish for <-/>for the eye that is that is that register personality and he must derive consciousness which could be regarded as a person <O/>
<$B> <O_><O/>
<$C> Thanks a lot Well I believe you have mentioned some of the most crucial issues uh which uh I think the rest can <O_><O/> in terms of uh starting a discussion on some of the issues that she has touched on But of course I don't know what you meant by <O/> Yeah when she she's talking of uh I <-/>I think <./>s some of the <O/> are there But when we When she talked of these weaknesses of <-/>of Shakespeare which she imagines are the kind of things uh <name/> is trying to exploit and then I was wondering whether really you know the word weakness would be <-/>be uh suitable I think uh mainly what we are thinking about here is the whole condition of authority You know the condition of authority <-/>authority as constituted uh is what really <name/> is trying to <-/>to <-/>to look at especially the possibilities of subverting that <-/>that <-/>that authority Of course authority as <-/>as represented here by <-/>by Prospero uh which <-/>which she mentioned cause I was saying like uh when we when we're thinking of <name/> really focussing on what we call the <-/>what <-/>we <-/>call <-/>the paradox in authority the fact that you constitute authority itself by suppressing you know freedoms and <-/>and <-/>and <-/>and therefore he thinks of <-/>of uh possibilities of subversion when those <O/> seem to you know to <-/>to come home to <O/> as it were which <-/>which I think is what Caliban tries sometimes to <-/>to exploit in his contest with uh uh <./>w with Prospero But I don't know what the rest of you may maybe think about it Especially this element of <-/>of authority Uh Because there is a whole process of trying to constitute a <-/>a <-/>a <-/>a kingdom in this island uh with what we'd call suppression of you know other <-/>other freedoms like those of Caliban and the rest In a word I'm inviting you to join in the discussion or any other issue that you want to raise not necessarily those of authority What is it that <name/> really calls the paradox of authority or exile which he sees as being represented in The Tempest by Shakespeare Yes Peter 
<$D> I think the whole issue that <name>/ is concerned especially <O_><O/> that part on Prospero Caliban he is trying to show that Prospero whatever he undergoes is not like he's a pioneer of it because the issue of the exile shows that even in Africa we had some kings who were in exile For example he gives that example of Asantehene and Churchill So that when Prospero comes it shows that that is like the imperial centre or now that the centre is coming to the periphery So in the periphery there is a form of ignorance so that innocently Caliban shows the secrets of the island So what Caliban is doing is that he's showing his true feelings There is no hypocrisy in him But the centre is portrayed as something hypocrisy because after being shown all the secrets the colonial subject is turned into a servant And this servant whatever language he's being given is only just enough to serve colonist master So that we see that what <name/> is trying to show is that the centre had nothing to offer the periphery and in fact he shows that all Prospero did was out of cruelty and revenge for what had happened to him in Milan
<$C> Yes we <-/>we are raising more and more interesting issues I don't know if there's anybody who wants to respond directly to Given the <-/>the kind of uh dimension that was <-/>was given to the discussion uh especially in terms of religion <O_><O/> <name/>
<$A> <O_><O/> referring to you know says that uh in a sense Caliban presents him so as a challenge to <-/>to Prospero Uh What <-/>What <-/>What do <-/>what <-/>what do you make of that uh In what sense is <-/>is Caliban as understood by <name/> in what sense is he a challenge actually to <-/>to Prospero Is it in terms really of uh strengh authority which I <-/>I think is not the case here It comes <-_>It comes<-/> out clearly you know in the play itself and I think Prospero keeps on getting disturbed with this idea of indefinable creature before him and yet it is something he cannot just say You are not there You do not exist He does exist and he exists as a challenge Uh And I think <name/> says something about that What did you think about it at least for those who have read the extract A challenge as what you know 
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<$A> <O_><O/> making sure that uh corruption is eradicated in our society Like in our Kenyan context we find that corruption is one of the ways by which uh drug trafficking can actually be motivated And uh if corruption is controlled such that them that are caught in the act of a drug trafficking are dealt with as uh a law I think uh by that way we will be able to curb the drug effect in the society
<$B> <O_><O/> suggesting that most of the drugs that come into this country the authorities are aware but a few people are bribed so that they 
<$B> Yeah there is some loopholes in the security Such that these things the drugs are allowed to enter into the country All the drug trafficking goes on and the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the government is not aware that Actually these people the government officials are actually aware that such things are continuing They are going on but because of the money hungry uh money hunger they continue <./>g getting this money and then the drug trafficking continues 
<$B> Okay but what would you think of a policeman for example who is paid about two thousand shillings a month or at the most five This man is dealing with a millionaire who is the drug trafficker This millionaire offers this poor policeman to give him a hundred thousand something he never dreamt of or thought it would ever come across his hands I don't know how the rest of you think If that policeman is faced with that temptation of that one hundred thousand shillings so that he can let drugs pass After all even if he does not allow somebody else will allow it to happen I don't know what the rest of you <$?> Now Whatever you say is really true but also we are to take it from another aspect that is You might've heard recently uh hashish valued at more than two million was caught somewhere in Kenya Funnily enough the persons who are involved they are government officers a DO in <-/>in <-/>in fact 
<$B> Yeah
<$?> Now here's a situation where we're not only <O_><O/> talking of surely the person having been underpaid But as much as the <$B> Yeah
<$?> Then it means therefore that the government being the biggest employer should at least try to set up job conditions which are suitable for any persons if that then will kill what we can otherwise call the temptations in life We can't avoid them They are there But at least the working conditions should be set in such a way that such like temptations are really minimal
<$B> Okay That was his point that the best things to ensure that we avoid corruption on the entry point of the country so that we can be able to take care of those who bring the drugs illegally 
<$?> Yeah One of the one of the issues that I think should be catered for is As <-/>as you talk of the cop who accepts a bribe Such a cop should be eliminated We should try to a certain level to eliminate such <-/>such cop I think drugs trafficking will be reduced this way In this issue what I want to think What I want to say is for example if you take care of the street children and look at them specifically you see that the majority comes from the <O_><O/> his <-/>his standards of life is raised The thing is that such a person would be able to take his children to school or her children to school And then I tend to think that because the <-/>the highest population of drug traffickers are people who have grown up in streets Those who have been brought up in such conditions they are they'll definitely change That will beat the number of drug traffickers
<$B> As in their suggestions you have a point as well But incidentally as I mentioned in the morning most of the drug traffickers are well-to-do people Let's take the example of the Mombasa drug haul of two billion Which street man can afford two <./>thou two billion worth of drug to bring into the country It's not uh we are talking of uh monies that go to the rate of two billion We are saying that even people who are earning a salary of twenty thousand shillings a month compared at that rate of income they are at a temptation also
<$?> Well uh in such a case I would say it's one thing to <-/>to sell the frugs and the receiving it's another thing The receiving <O_><O/> For example you find that those street children those people who live in the street the poor families and all these are the ones who have been troubled by taking the drugs themselves The problem especially if we are dealing with drug addiction which means that those people at the far end are the one who have problems Anyway if we could we should consider also the far end 
<$?> <ea/>Sawa but We notice as a fact that people who drug-traffic are not uh the same people who take the drugs For instance the example about the Mombasa drug haul We find that the person who got in all those tons of uh <-/>of drugs is uh <-/>is not really the person who is going to take it uh So uh what I would say is that uh actually drugs permeate you know all areas of society The rich take it The <-/>the poor take it you know <./>Su uh Such that we will not really come up with any tangible uh you know solution to drugs Drugs are there to stay 
<$B> Are you suggesting what we are doing we're looking for solutions is that we basically we are doing nothing
<$?> Uh actually <./>le let's not cheat ourselves Uh The best we can do is to try and educate people of <./>o on the bad aspects of <-/>of drugs But even in education we find that in the universities the <-/>the <-/>the pinnacle of intellectualism we find drugs are being taken there uh So okay The solution in <-/>in <-/>in this drug war is actually education you know changing the people's uh frame of mind concerning drugs but not necessarily increasing people's income That will only give them more money for drugs <$B> Okay Now uh That was one way of bridging the gap between the poor and the rich And also his point maybe as we have said earlier is that most of the people who end up taking drugs have other problems that lead them to taking drugs That is the person maybe uh doesn't have a job he's an idler Or the person is frustrated He comes from a broken-up family and he has no hope in anything else So because of that he <-/>he seeks for refuge in drug taking So maybe among those ones who come from that calibre of those who are pressed to drugs by poverty and frustrations that are money-related they may end up in that Let's get the last one Now that we <-/>we go to something else so that we can get something else
<$?> Okay Me I think that uh the families should play a very important role because one of the causes of drug addiction is that children are influenced by their peer groups So if parents can play a role of being responsible and educating their children making sure they know where they are going and what they are doing I think it can be eradicated 
<$?> Okay that's Do you know that many parents do not like even to mention drugs to their parent because it may be out of that curiosity that the child would go to look for those drugs to see like you have no intentions of taking heroin for example but you wouldn't mind seeing how it looks like Just the way we don't like dead people But if you are told somebody is dead somewhere you will all go to see him And your seeing does not bring that person back Like in the same <-/>same case when you introduce the same the issue of drugs to your children some of them instead of getting <./>rect uh corrected they might say uh Why is mom or dad so concerned about this And that one might end up making them try And that is the same problem we have with sex education in Kenya Churches are arguing that if those issues are mentioned to them some of the people who not have had a chance to hear are now going to have a chance to hear and then try it 
<$?> Sir uh actually I have a <-/>a point to add onto that You know at times you find that uh taking a drug can be an a necessity It can actually be dictated by your circumstances Here I'm talking about uh in the past MUSO elections we had Okay I was going in for a chairman of MUSO Uh And uh actually me I'm an anti-drug you know uh
<$B> advocate 
<$?> So I We found ourselves in a situation where the first <ea/>kamukunji we had Okay The my opponents that had taken uh you know hard liqueur <ea/>chang'aa had given them to uh they had given them to their you know supporters So we are going for the <ea/>kamukunji and you know the supporters came and all that You know my opponents they had an edge you know <O_><O/> But me I <-/>I did have the drugs in my system I must say And uh Okay I went there and uh I was awkward So the second <ea/>kamukunji we had I thought now how do I solve this problem Yeah I live around the Kikuyus I'm a Luo and uh they take <ea/>chang'aa So when I entered uh another's room you know they were taking <ea/>chang'aa just preparing for the <ea/>kamukunji So I thought might this not be the solution to my nervous problem So I took two sips 
<$B> <./>Ho Of <ea/>chang'aa 
<$?> Of <ea/>chang'aa 
<$B> For the first time in your life 
<$?> For the first time in my life So this uh why I could <./>almo a almost feel it going down and then entering my system and so I felt good And then in the LT three And I could speak I tell you I spoke freely Then in the third <ea/>kamukunji now <-/>now I knew the solution to this Now I <-/>I got my own worth twenty shillings You see 
<$B> Yeah
<$?> So I took it and went in for the <ea/>kamukunji yeah So I had all my comfort Before I had the points uh I took the <-/>the <ea/>chang'aa I had to <-/>to you know get my points right what I'm going to talk about Then I took it and just to calm me down Then I went in And my speaking was eloquent Yeah And in fact you know the crowd could uh When they started jeering at me you know I shout to overrule their shouting You see so I managed to get my points across Uh But that is not to say that uh you know I take drugs But it was out of necessity And I know that uh drugs you know circumstances can really dictate that you take them 
<$B> <./>A <./>A Are you suggesting there are some problems their only solution is taking drugs 
<$?> Can be taking drugs Like that one Which other solution is there 
<$?> Now sir I suppose that uh Or we can see how our society's taking changes The next time <O_><O/> But that's besides the point What I'm raising is this I suppose a way of which we can now help uh curb out this drug is to solve it from the consumption point of view Because we can't have producers without consumers That is I'm reasoning now from my economics point of view We can't have producers without consumers If we discourage the consumption then we are going to handle the production and the pushing of the drugs Now that therefore goes back to the punishment which is given to the pushers and the consumers Now I suppose that instead of punishing the consumers and the pushers we should get a way in which we handle these people Because if you want to punish me today the next day I just <-_>I just<-/> feel that if I want to hurt you is to do the same thing so that you repeat the same thing As you were saying in the morning that some people just do this so that they can be punished That therefore means that we should then start rehabilitation schools instead of setting up so many jail centres to curb the whole drug uh problem
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<$A> introductory speech which will also give the meaning of that display Yeah Displaying is actually to arrange uh spread out for public view The days are gone when people go to their bookshops as if they're entering a mysterious shrine to meet some frightening gods But in most bookshops half the battle is won when a shopper picks up the books on show if by the formality of the display he feels the slightest put off you lose him There is a great need to display stock in ways that tempt your customer So you without much ado why don't we go straight to window displays To start with the displays should be <./>live the windows should be lively and attracting to catch the interest of a passer-by who doesn't know anything about current books What do I mean by that When somebody's just passing uh outside the windows of your bookshop if they are tidy and attractive then even if he knows nothing about what is current and whatever you have kept there which is current he can see Then I think you are attracting him to the bookshop and that is what display's meant Second point Unless you are doing solo window displays try and put in as many related titles as possible not just one copy of each Third one Try to break up the regularity by stacking books upon one another Building up towers of the same book of the same size books but of different titles Basically what I mean is that you are having a book on uh zoology and there are different titles because there are different approaches by different authors who <O/> different topic You can just display them one over the other but as if you are building towers so that face forward so that everybody can see and Unless you are just doing a solo display Or rather what I mean by a solo display is that for each window <O/> bookshop You are having uh English books they're only maybe by a certain writer Ngugi wa Thiong'o On the second window you are just having uh by Mwangi <name/> That way unless you are doing that kind of work for a generalised display I think it's the point advises us to pile them up that way so that the related ones can be brought together for the users to have a choice Let's come to the third aspect Uh Sometimes it's uh advisable to make it a bit a little difficult to read a little difficult to read what is in <-/>in the display but not too difficult to chase away those who <O/> to uh the would-be purchasers of the book Because it is a bit stimulating to see how people crane their necks and trying to struggle to see what is there in the display And that and by so doing they <O/> and attract crowds to your bookshop 
We go to the second to the other aspectI know it's a bit difficult to <-/>to relate Whatever is in your display let's say it's a such a book which is here So if I want to display this book Maybe by the writing the type of writing I will choose for that particular set of books in that window You might put them in a way that the writing may be below the <O/> of colours Then something appears different in a different colour Right Then by so doing somebody who is coming to see to view those books in the those books through the window maybe he'll strain a bit from a far distance He'll be straining and be craning his <-/>his neck to see what is there So when he is straining that way he is attracting crowds 
<$B> What about what about if the books that have titles written in uh big print you put them right at the back of the display And you have those ones written in small print brought just near the <-/>the glass of the window so that those ones which are in the back cannot be read from afar Somebody will have to come next to the window and maybe uh try to peep past the books that are in front to see what is at the back
<$A> That's that's quite good 
<$C> to make it to make it a little difficult to read what's on display I don't According to your definition of display I do not quite agree with that Because if you make it difficult for the <-/>for <-/>the person who is looking at that particular book to read he might go away He might get another bookshop that will place these books so nicely you are able to read the titles You are just attracted because uh <O/> you make it difficult to read 
<$D> I think the point he's trying to put across is very genuine because you find that if it's a little bit difficult for you to read you spend more time there By spending more time the passer-by becomes curious What is this guy concentrating to do here Why don't Why don't I also 
<$C> In the world of today whereby time <-/>time is a <-/>is <-/>a <-/>is <-/>a rare commodity Just want to read something and go by it and disappear Why should why <-/>why <-/>should I go to a <-/>a bookshop and <-/>and spend twenty minutes just trying to scan what has been What is this that this person is trying to display
<$?> If those writings are far away from you you would wish to see what's that that is written there So you move closer In the process of your moving closer you are attracting those who are passing around <O_><O/> So it's probably <O/> a little bit difficult Not that it should be difficult That's <$?> So you find it a little bit difficult so that
<$?> Not <-/>not <-/>not <-/>not to read not to read but to attract others yeah
<$?> Because for the one who is being attracted he's not far away In fact he's just so close to the window So he's just craning to see what is just right at <-/>at 
<$B> And <-/>And I <-/>I think actually what is likely to result from that is that that person may even get inside the shop to be able to uh <-/>to read that book more comfortably He gets it from the shelf and reads it from a close range 
<$?> So we proceed with our discussion 
<$?> animation or any amusing style relevant to the subject to stop crowds In this point we know the You know the use of the placement of cards in shops to attract people They just make <./>a an amusing sight that you just want to <-/>to see what's actually there But <./>e even in this case you can employ the <-/>the use of marionettes relevant to the subject You can have a marionette You know marionettes They are pieces of <O/> sort of dolls that seem to be dancing So you can have a marionette maybe in a mathematical in mathematics books display You see they'll attract crowds They are amusing so people will come to watch And by watching they'll see this is standard eight mathematics secondary mathematics And they are attracted to your shop 
<$D> Excuse me Uh You said that the relationship be relevant to the <-/>the topic you are trying to display 
<$A> Where possible
<$D> Where possible I think you should have added that statement because I've seen most cases it's always contrast For example you find a bookshop You find they put uh uh uh uh not a marionette maybe a crocodile You <-/>you wonder what uh uh how crocodiles are related to books But because of that curiosity why are crocodiles put in such a display You <-/>You see what is being displayed maybe it's a book on it's just a book 
<$A> He's right And windows should be as clean and fresh as possible Dusty dirty scrubby and muddy copies which are a disgrace to the shop should be banned from windows at all times Copies which are dusty almost mugged up with mud <O/> which are folded at the edges they are actually a disgrace People will wonder whether you are selling second-hand books They should be not uh displayed in the windows Because a window display is a in fact is the gateway to your bookshop So <./>al also you should group books by subject in a solo type of display window The other point is that ensure that anyone who looks into the window can also look through right into your shop What do I mean The way you place your books in that window display will have to be in such a way that people can also see what is in the shop seeing through When I look through the display window I can also see through the shop Let those who are outside know that's even better inside Now they are tempted to step right inside the into the <-/>into <-/>the 
<$D> Excuse me How do you do that Because you know some windows uh so some windows reflect your image So if <-/>if you <-/>if <-/>you <-/>if <-/>you <-/>if <-/>you put that uh which type of window should be there You should also specify because maybe if you put it straight it reflects you but if you put it slant uh maybe slanting so you <-/>you <-/>you can see through so your image maybe is reflected somewhere else
<$?> maybe you can use uh the type of the windows that you can that's reflecting the image because you'll not be seeing the book displays 
<$?> I think this case to <-/>to <-/>to many <O_><O/> let's say this is a real display Then in case the <-/>the pane is already transparent so you can see you can see through But then inside the <-/>the shelves or the rack for displaying the books in that window display are slanted so that they don't entirely block behind And to add on that do curtains Do away with bad dusty curtains that will shop So uh you see it's a almost a very common phenomenon in many bookshops You find that if there's a window display and right by the books there's almost a <-/>a blockage there because there are dark <-/>dark curtains there You see they screen the viewer from seeing right through the shop I think that's not advisable as far as bookshop uh displays are concerned 
<$B> And if I may comment on that Sometimes depending on the premises that you get people If you are not lucky you may not get a shop that has a window And you may decide to have a window constructed after you've got in that building So some people end up even building walls after the window inside the <-/>the bookshop so that when you look from outside you only see the books that are on the display on the window display Then after that you see a wall You don't see anything else So that is what actually should be avoided You make sure that there is free space it's quite open right from the window to the other end of the wall 
<$?> And to avoid congestion for <-/>for new titles you display them cover first that is face forward And then for the other old titles which are still selling pending you can just display them by maybe spine first that the <-/>the spine can be visible But for the most current ones make sure that you display them forward face forward that is Okay we now we proceed there now right into the shop assuming that our <-/>our customer has been enticed into the bookshop And now he is willing to purchase or to see more of what you have inside So shelves tables and special displays these carry the stock that our customers are to buy Any table display that is <O_><O/> purpose You see there are some displays inside the shop now that just looks too formal Maybe they're so impeccably clean that a customer or a would-be customer fears to even touch them Then they are failing in their purpose Let them Let the customers see that these ones are for their use They are there for them <-/>for <-/>them to touch and even to handle them the way they like because that's their sole business and the customer is the vital aspect in any kind of business 
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<$A> Thank you Now I want to discuss briefly <-_>about the phonological level Yes and I'm going to read a small poem entitled <?/>Ollifant Now first <-/>first of all I want to comment about the musicality of this <-_>of this<-/> poem because due to the effect of alliteration and repetition and the rhymes okay This kind of musicality in the first place makes the child derive pleasure from this kind of poem and therefore the child rather is encouraged is encouraged to keep on reading and reading and reading the poem The child is encouraged to read the poems and in that course of reading the poems the child uh comes across different structures of language different words of language and therefore that builds his linguistic <-_competency><+_competence> And that's all we are interested in Now apart from that the child also learns to distinguish closely related words as we found in the poem for example ears and years round ground mouth south and so on and so forth Okay So these closely related words uh The child learns to distinguish these closely related words And also I'm interested in uh in the paradigmatic contrast in these kind of words The child learns that although these words are so closely related as far as pronunciation is concerned they are they are very <./>diff they a they have very different meanings So that closeness in pronunciation or even the same pronunciation does not necessarily mean that the words mean the same okay So the child comes to understand this kind of difference through the poem and therefore this also has a way goes into uh improving his linguistic <-_competency><+_competence> Orthographically these words are as you've seen like in this poem of elephant of elephant uh mouse house grass trees as you all realised are very commonplace words they're <-/>they're things that are just around okay And I would say are words which the child in one time or more often than not will want to use them either in writing or in <./>s speaking And especially in writing because uh uh if a child wants to express himself through writing then he has <-_>he has<-/> to know the he has to know the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the spelling of these words So what I'm saying is such a text also helps the child to know the <-_>the the the<-/> spelling of the words of the common or the words that are very common so that he can use them in his <./>co in his communication Now if we look at this poem of uh the poem I've just read to you The Little Fish The Little Fish In this kind of poem we have basically three characters We have the mother fish the little fish and I will say uh is it they call it the persona or something In other words there there's a kind of a dialogue in this kind of text okay And in the dialogue of course the mother fish and the little fish speak different at least as far as the tone is concerned So uh through <./>rea through reading this poem the child uh uh the child tries to fit into the various characters that are portrayed in the <-_>in the<-/> text okay And he speaks he has to assume different roles in order to portray the right kind of emotions and the right kind of message So through doing this the child uh through doing this the voice modulation and all that the child uh the child builds his emotions And he's able <./>t and he <-/>he knows that communication is not <-_>is not<-/> just about just words or sentence structures of anything it also has to do something with emotions okay It has to do with emotions And again role play if you look at this kind of text again role play that it helps a child to get the feel of things okay Because as I've said as the child tries to fit into <./>dif the different roles and express different emotions he <-/>he learns how to express himself emotionally okay He learns how to express himself emotionally And therefore uh this also I believe goes into uh improving the <./>l the child's <-_competency><+_competence> in language Any comment as far as that is concerned Now of course lexically if <-_>if if<-/> you look at the lexical level of this you'll realise that as you've said the words are very commonplace words the house the mouse the grass the mouth the ears and so on And so the child learns the basic vocabulary okay And he not only learns them he also learns how to spell them okay So uh so that when the child wants to use them when the child wants to write he can write them without making mistakes And that is all that uh <-_competency><+_competence> in language is all about I invite questions Yes Epher
<$B> Maybe if it if I did hear that in order to discuss I have not really seen the meaning part of how the child learns meaning from language in most of what you've been saying Are there any instances whereby the child gets meaning to really get the meaning of the language like through a poem how does he conceptualise meanings of things and all that or it doesn't appear in linguistic competence 
<$A> Okay I talked a bit about meaning especially when I was talking about uh the cognitive level But my view of meaning was this my view of meaning is that I <-/>I <-/>I first I said that the child uh children learn language by associating it <-_>associating it<-/> with meaning that's what I was saying And so uh even though certain terms within the texts might not be very uh he might not be able to understand such uh such terms or words okay But uh through or with within that context the child is able to will be able to get the meaning of <-/>of such terms and therefore he builds his competence and I gave an example of keeping vigil although the child did not know what to keep vigil is what to keep vigil means yeah but within that context he still can be able to <-/>to understand what it means
<$C> Let me say Okay that's my I have a different view about how a child can get the meaning of words not only from the context We have like for example the onomatopoeic words And we know with the onomatopoeic words we get the meaning out of kind of we perceive the sound of the word and now we associate that sound with <-/>with the really with the reality the <-_>the the the<-/> physical reality that we have For example let's say we have a word like the <-_>the the<-/> rock falling with a thud and that I don't know how <-/>how he knows it because there is an there is no <O/> at the end And uh the child does not know the meaning of that thud But I think he can picturise how that rock fell and I think it's through such an onomatopoeic word the child can derive the meaning So I think that it's not only the context that can help a child to get the meaning but also the nature of the words themselves like for example onomatopoeic words Also for example we have these words with sibilants for example with these hissing sounds like buzz and any other sibilant I would feel also because they also appear like <./>onomato onomatopoeic words they can also enable the child to get the <./>co to get the meaning of the word I don't know that's my feeling 
<$B> Yeah okay uh I agree So far we had the meaning of the words that was concerned But now I was talking about the whole text like that poem of the fish Does the child now can the child understand like if you go against your mother's orders something bad can happen to you You know like is that meaning more of linguistic or is it <O_><O/>
<$A> Now tell us what you think Do you think this meaning is more linguistic
<$B> I think in linguistic competence it counts Like in the child really gets to know the <-/>the gist of the <-_>of the<-/> poem and all just apart from knowing the meanings of the words and the sounds and the whatever you have discussed which is okay 
<$A> Okay
<$B> You also know the gist of the poem so you understand and that is also linguistic competence
<$A> So what the child comes to know that uh it's not just uh <./>s linguistic structures it also has to do with the meaning So actually uh in <-_>in in in in<-/> communication the child has to know that he has to communicate I mean 
<$B> Yeah I'm asking is it okay 
<$A> Yeah I think it is Unless anyone else Yes
<$?> I think now the discussion we must digress a bit here There's the problem of a kid who is trying to learn L one and one is trying to learn L two Now the question there seem to be having problem with a kid learning an L two <ea/>sio so that he doesn't know the meaning of the words so for the first time he's trying to <O/> from other things Now what of a kid who is learning L one who already knows the meaning of such words 
<$?> I'm not sure if I'm getting you the question right
<$?> The question is this We have a kid who is learning language Now language can be learned from two perspectives You it can be a kid who is that one now is English <ea/> sio What of if it was an English kid who is trying to learn his own language or mother tongue Then there is one who is an African like you who is a young kid trying to learn English Now in that case I think context would be more relevant to a kid who is learning L two than the kid who is already learning mother tongue Now a kid who is learning mother tongue already knows the words Now there must be something else he's looking for maybe like sequence or anything 
<$?> Yeah I think I <-/>I get what he's trying to say uh you know the question that she posed was Is there much more to I mean uh is <-/>is I mean meaning How does meaning come out of that text and uh you have we've tried to get uh an understanding Now the question he is asking is that suppose there is this child who uses the native tongue and he already knows the meanings of these words and everything uh he knows the meaning apart form that is there an aspect or other aspects of language that the child learns out uh uh <-/>out of this text of the poem I just read And of course I think the answer is yes There is much more I think language is a very wide thing and there are so many other things people have to learn all the time And so I think some of the things we pointed out when we were dealing with the phonological level other aspects such as what uh the sense of what uh spelling and so many other things that you were talking about are <./>im uh crucial here uh The child learns other ways about how to speak the language how to write it down how to you know uh distinguish between certain words that are common and that kind of thing that have certain features but that are almost similar So I think there are <-_>there are there are<-/> so many things that a child can learn even if he already knows the meaning of those words So that uh of course we are saying at the end of the day we are talking about meaning You have to communicate But again we are also talking about the process of tackling of getting to the meaning the structure of the language and learning so many aspects about uh the structure of the language So I think uh this question is just a way of asking what other aspects are there apart from uh just doing this for basic meaning And I think it's part of what you are doing now What are can a child gain from uh the poem itself Then I also wanted to point out that there are also other things the child can learn when we're talking about meaning because I think meaning is a very wide thing 
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You must have got that from you <-/>you <-/>you <-_>from you<-/> <-/>from your <-/>your <-/>your <-/>your literature and corpus planning So you can deliberately make the language a prestige language even when it was just uh a mere vernacular So Nyerere with his charisma gave Kiswahili status Not that it was a status uh it was uh uh first a status symbol and then imposed on the others Do you see the difference So it is different from what is happening or what happened in Kenya So if you are comparing Kenya and Tanzania English and Kiswahili then you must have all this in mind because you're talking about politics and politics is ideology What is the political ideology of Kenya What was the political ideology of Tanzania <$B> I think it's uh clear now The ideology of uh political ideology of Tanzania was based on socialism 
<$A> Egalitarianism everybody seemed to be important and then it is politics of participation from the grassroots and you <./>all you yourself said that the <-_>the the<-/> minimal unit political unit and economic unit in Tanzania was the village They were already using Kiswahili way before the <-/>the legalisation Kiswahili was not imposed on them they were already using the language So it was quite different from the Kenyan situation By the <./>ni by nineteen sixty-seven when they were declaring Kiswahili the national language or the official language Kiswahili was already wide-spread around the country 
<$C> I think maybe we should give him time to talk about the Kenyan case before we
<$A> But you know the Kenyan case don't you Ben is not going to give you that now is he Ben Okay give then just an overview of what uh the situation is in Kenya 
<$B> Now the situation in Kenya is uh <./>di is slightly different is actually different from the Tanzanian one I think when we talk about uh politics we're talking about ideology So the approach at the Kenyan independence in nineteen sixty-three was kind of uh that capitalist orientation but uh as I said earlier the first president of Kenya had always been stressing on the use of Kiswahili language as a national language in Kenya only that uh it's never matured and it has not matured up to now because of some reasons Now in nineteen sixty-four for example uh I gave that example earlier it is after addressing the first Kenyan parliament when Kenya became a republic uh Kenyatta himself used the English language but at the end of his speech he decided to augment it with uh a few words in Kiswahili And he said that uh a time has come or a time had come at that time to start using Kiswahili language at the national level And according to him <./>s uh something has to start somewhere So according to him the use of Kiswahili language has to start from the Kenyan parliament He proposed uh the discarding of foreign languages such as English uh to proclaim what he referred to as proper independence So if Kenya had uh become independent from the British uh forces then it had to look for a language that was more of an African language to use in its government policies But uh the problem came in that unlike Tanzania Kenya had a <-/>a capitalist's political ideology It uh had uh a balance uh its balance was more towards the West than uh the case of Tanzania which was more towards the Eastern bloc maybe if you can remember the <-/>the division of the world at that time in the Eastern bloc and the Western bloc So the Western bloc uh type of capitalism which was being adopted by the young nation in Kenya was that of using the language of the former colonial power So in Kenya it became inevitable that English occupied that special place of its uh in its political ideology at that time unlike Tanzania which discarded the use of English immediately at independence but Kenya continued using the English language to promote or to proclaim its political ideology Kenyatta tried so much to introduce Kiswahili as the president of Kenya He even uh stage-managed I call it stage-managing the introduction of motions in parliament to declare the Kiswahili language as the language of parliament such that it becomes the language of uh use mass use in Kenya This was uh attempted in nineteen sixty-nine when a motion <-_>a motion<-/> in parliament passed by uh one MP at that time to declare Kiswahili the language of the government debate in parliament or parliamentary debate So it's never succeeded of course at that time And later on the ruling party at that time and after this time is KANU so at that time it was the sole ruling party uh proposed in its governing council of nineteen seventy that nineteen seventy-four was going to be the year for the <-/Swahlanization> of <./>Ken Swahilianisation of Kenya So they they wanted to introduce Kiswahili as the language of Kenya by nineteen seventy-four that was in nineteen seventy in a three-phase plan according to what they gave So when nineteen seventy-four reached nothing much had been done about this So since it was a <-/>a government uh a governing council declaration or proposition Kenyatta decided to make or to give a presidential decree that uh from now that was in nineteen seventy-four Kiswahili was going to be used in parliament So it was a presidential decree It was not even something planned So it was overnight that Kiswahili had started to be used in the Kenyan parliament and uh there were so many effects on uh that were brought about by this presidential decree Because according to the literature I've come across many of the MPs at this time members of the parliament did not have proficiency in Kiswahili Of course there were a few who had proficiency in Kiswahili and no proficiency in English but the majority of them had proficiency in the English language And the language that was supposed to be used uh before somebody is nominated to parliament or nominated to contest a seat was English language So here the president comes and declares that Kiswahili language is going to be used here and it caused a problem It also it <-/>it is also seen that uh in uh the struggle for independence many of the political parties at that time I think we had the main political parties KADU and KANU had used Kiswahili language in uh uh propagating their policies in trying to be the leading political parties I think this implies that uh the political parties themselves were aware of the fact that uh Kiswahili language was much more understood or was much more spread among the masses than uh the English language was So it was ironical that at independence the same <-/>same political parties I think KANU had now merged with KADU in nineteen sixty-four But it became ironical that instead of adopting the language they were using in propagating their policies in the field that is uh among the electorate they now decided to adopt the English language as the official language of Kenya because of the ideology that was capitalist ideology Now in nineteen seventy-nine I think Kenya had uh entered in its second phase now Uh Kenyatta was uh already out so he had died and we had uh a new president in nineteen seventy-nine So the government of Daniel arap Moi introduced a new bill in parliament from nineteen seventy-four to nineteen seventy-nine it was only Kiswahili that was used in parliament So in nineteen seventy-nine the government of uh Daniel arap Moi introduced a bill in parliament which <./>in reintroduced the use of English language in parliamentary debate But this time it did not drop Kiswahili So it made the two languages as official languages in the debates of Kenyan parliament So the difference was that when a member asks a question in Kiswahili he should answer he should be answered in Kiswahili When a question is asked in English the reply should be in English That was the only difference But the two languages uh from nineteen seventy-nine I think up to now are the official languages of the Kenyan parliament Nevertheless Moi himself has continued using Kiswahili in his political platforms I think that was from Leitham He has continued using uh Kiswahili in his uh political platforms And he has always
<$A> That didn't have to come from Leitham because you are better placed to say that It didn't have to come from Leitham Because you are better placed to say to tell us that You listen to him every day on <./>tel TV and radio <$B> Yeah but uh the uh of late he has been using other languages hasn't he <$A> That's <-/>that's why it should come from you not from Leitham Leitham is in uh <-/>in Washington he doesn't know that he's using other languages 
<$B> Okay but he <-/>he stresses that uh Leitham himself stresses that uh Moi has been against the use of foreign languages in Kenya and uh he has always been saying that the use of foreign languages uh is a kind of colonialism to him He says I think there is a line he quotes that uh the president once said that he cannot be ashamed to <-/>to break the English language or the French language anything that is alien to him but he's very very particular about the use of his own language so he'll better use Kiswahili language the way it is supposed to be in standard form But if he uses the other language in any other way he's not moved about it so easily I think there are some lines that 
<$A> And you agree with Leitham 
<$B> He has given
<$A> Do you agree with him 
<$B> He has <-_>he has<-/> even quoted lines from the president 
<$A> Yeah that's right Do you agree with him that's what I'm asking 
<$B> I didn't agree with him entirely 
<$A> Okay
<$B> I didn't
<$C> I mean the president breaks Kiswahili quite often 
<$D> <ea_> <ea/> <O_><O/> English 
<$B> So maybe Leitham is not he's not uh good in uh he maybe doesn't know Kiswahili himself Perhaps he may be <?/>we've been in a better place to judge the president's use of Kiswahili Now Kiswahili in Kenya has nevertheless been uh not been as well implemented as it has been in Tanzania English is still used in many official functions in Kenya It is used in courts of law It is the one that is used in the school the education system And uh because of uh this multiple use and functions I think English uh in Kenya becomes I think more I can call it a prestige language I think I'm reluctant to say this but in Kenya it is more a prestige language than Kiswahili is 
<$A> Why are you reluctant to say that 
<$B> I was reluctant because uh some of them will disagree with me 
<$A> And you don't like people disagreeing with you 
<$B> So English uh I think is more of a prestige language in Kenya than Kiswahili is But uh the government in Kenya has uh as I have said has always stressed on the use of the Kiswahili language that is why it is uh I think given equal time not equal time I think uh <-_>I think<-/> equal time now in the mass media radio television we have I think the two languages being used at the same time I don't know whether I can briefly talk about the example of Uganda I was using <O_><O> so all the examples were from the three countries all the time 
<$A> We don't have the time but uh I want to hear you react to what Ben has said because that is what is important 
<$B> I don't know
<$A> I asked him to look at that work again because it didn't satisfy me his false presentation And that's why I gave him more <O/> Yeah
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<$C> Yeah in a sense there is <-/>is a lot that's meant about that question of relationship uh I think comes out very clearly in The <-/>in <-/>The <-/>in <-/>The Tempest itself uh the text And I think <name/> also tries to do something about uh <name/> in fact goes further than that and you know asks the question What <-/>what happens you know like uh he says Prospero has given Caliban language and then makes this statement and repeat with that gift of language unstated history of consequences and unknown history of future intentions And I think we are <-/>we <-/>are <-/>we <-/>are thinking of uh uh you know the post-<-/coloniality> that the condition that we are in now one must say something you know about that about what <name/> is saying What are these future intentions uh which which Prospero You remember of course Prospero says or is it Miranda it's Miranda actually there's always a problem in who <-/>who made those statements of having taught uh uh Caliban language But remember that <O_><O/> you know problem between Prospero Miranda and Caliban on the other <-/>on <-/>the <-/>other side that without language <O_><O/> and so forth And one thing that Prospero says is that uh you know in trying to give purpose to your intentions by giving you language so that language is not merely language you know the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the words that that we <-/>we <-/>we speak but more in terms of concepts in terms of uh ideas Of course these ideas being western and <-/>and uh ideas uh of Prospero's culture So what is going to take place after all this you know What's going to that possibility of the relationship the bond between Prospero and Caliban where Prospero in most cases thinks Caliban uh could have raped he in fact attempted to <-/>to rape Miranda And then there is that small discourse about what <-/>what would have happened if <-/>if <-/>if <-/>if that took place uh Caliban uh  Of course <name/> makes an issue from that I <-/>I mean the other way round So I don't know what most of you would want to say on that relationship uh like the whole post-colonial history now Can you actually say these are the kind of intentions that uh <name/> is talking about Uh Caliban is taking place you know in the <./>s in the <-/>the sixteenth or <-/>or <-/>or <O/> sixteenth century But then in the twentieth century we are actually seeing our own transformation of our people of Calibans you know for that matter I don't know whether most of you imagined that this is what <name/> uh was trying to imply by talking about this <-/unstated> uh history of consequences Is it the history of post-<-/coloniality> <O_><O/> I don't know there are issues that you want to raise so that <O_><O/>
<$A> I think I would say in in connection to what uh we have just said about uh this uh what <name/> has called is calling an unknown it is an unknown history of future intentions Uh maybe when you think of that statement and you know that it uh against what we were doing this morning uh The Pantomime What can you say about it What can you say about that statement by <name/> uh in reference to <-/>to Pantomime by Derek Walcott Do you see it as a fulfilment of that such a statement 
<$C> <O_><O/> you're still thinking about that uh <O_><O/> What about this <-/>this <-/>this issue that <name/> says Caliban contains the seed of revolt What do you make of that What <-/>What does he mean that Caliban contains the seed I think of s e e d sorry of revolt of rebellion for that matter Yes
<$?> I think what <name/> was trying to show is that He was showing he had a reference to the slaves who had been taken to Caribbean so that after the torture he underwent there was always that spirit of freedom He wanted to be free So that even when they were working he said some of them became leaders They led an uprising or something like that So some are killed but still in their position others arose So in Caliban there are two times when he tries to organise a revolution so that he once overthrew Prospero But the way he undergoes this is that he tries to use <name/> to seduce Stephano who is the drunkard But even the two do not have the purpose They don't know what this revolution is all about To them it's just an adventure so that what <name/> is seeing that the colonial subject in this case because of that need the urge for freedom he's always determined so that he shows it the way Caliban was detained in that <O/> so that that detention in itself gives the colonial subject time to think and reorganise himself so that even in detention that spirit is not killed but <./>in <./>in instead it is strengthened more So Caliban stands for that seed of revolt and that revolt is revolutionary in itself
<$C> Yeah Yes please
<$?> I also tend to think that that seed of revolt which <O_><O/> to be contained in Caliban Uh I think it refers to the awakening of this <-/>this subject uh that gradually uh by using the language which Prospero gives him we see Caliban uh learning or praying We see Caliban stand up for his rights He <-/>He tells Prospero that Prospero has misused uh the <-/>the generosity of Caliban to mislead him Because we can say that initially it was him who <O/> Prospero on the island and showed him the good parts of the island Then after that it is when Prospero now turns things over and becomes the <-/enslaver> of Caliban So there is that awareness of disposition on the part of Caliban And then he knows that uh Prospero is oppressing him when he's not supposed to be doing that because the island belongs to him So gradually you see that uh Caliban begins to seek ways of trying to change this state of events so that he can now be the rightful owner of the island I think that is what refers to uh what is referred to as the that seed of revolt 
<$C> Yeah I guess so I mean throughout the play really the colonial discourse that Caliban knows is that of trying to assert uh the rights of <-/>of <-/>of <-/>of <-/>of ownership of the island I mean he keeps on singing this freedom song <-/>freedom <-/>song even though <O_><O/> Those of you who saw the film you <-/>you can witness What comes out of him the music the everything the curses and so forth uh refer to this <-/>this injustice <./>th that has been done to him But I think you know like the two of you are saying uh the paradox of it all is that you know no matter how we're trying to it's like as <-/>as <-/>as <-/>as you're trying to suppress him you know the more the <-/>the urge and the demand uh for <-/>for freedom and justice becomes increasingly <O_><O/> for that matter uh But uh So that <./>i in this light you can look upon these things like uh even the very intentions the very purposes that are <-/>that <-/>are given expressions of words and speech by <-/>by Prospero becomes to nothing but out of frustration and speech Once I know then my I know how to <-/>to speak I would say that my intention from the very beginning was to to be free to be the owner of this island and so forth in a sense you <-/>you can <-/>can <-/>you <-/>can think about that although there is a little disservice but <-/>but that's the case Of course this is You know <name/> is <-/>is standing between the history that has come of colonial <O_><O/> and the consequences of colonialism and I think that's why he's is <-/>is very free criss-crossing the borders uh talking about seeing parallels in all this uh the <-/>the <-/>the whole history of the Caribbean or the ancient history for example So there's that kind of uh uh free uh you know free collapsing of <./>a <./>a all these experiences Any other issue that you want to <-/>to raise Yes please 
<$?> I have some questions about uh to <-/>to pose to the presenter There is something she said about uh lack of guilt-conscience on the part of the imperialists Uh I did not quite get it clear Uh I don't know how this uh has a bearing on that the investment of new meaning in <-/>in The Tempest Could you please maybe explain that to me 
<$A> When we were coming up with that point we realised that uh uh as we were saying that <name/> is trying to bring uh an analogy to the colonialism and what is the Shakespeare is trying to write about Such that uh when we saw that uh there is this boatsman no <./>s sorry captain who is composing a song whereas there are some people who are actually suffering in the <-/>in <-/>the shipment of uh those foes or those people who are supposed to be actually Uh okay As Prospero <-/>Prospero has an intention of actually civilising the people but they undergo so much suffering So to Prospero it doesn't matter whatever he's doing to whatever is going to happen to the people but provided they land in the island in the mission of civilising them And therefore the analogy was uh with this European shipment of uh with this African shipment of slaves to <-/>to Europe Such that those people are actually They <./>w <-/>They were subjected to so much uh <-_>to so much<-/> problems but uh their <-/>their colonisers had an intention of civilising them because they had this mentality that Africans are idle so you have to make them busy So by taking them to Europe they are making them busy but it doesn't matter the situation That's the <O_><O/>
<$?> I can also add on that on the question of a new meaning in this So he tries to show the humanity and the inhumanity So Caliban in the book has been presented as not human He just lies in between and Prospero now is the human And you know that what makes a man human is his conscience so that but so that in this case we are <./>s <name/> subverts the situation showing that Caliban instead is the one who has this conscience because whatever he says he <-/>he portrays his true feelings But Prospero in trying to discover the secrets of the island He was somehow using tricks so that at the end of it he has no guilt when he says that <-/>that the colonial master or the imperial has no guilty conscience is that when Prospero discovered everything about the island he used that information for his benefit and the reward for knowing this is turning Caliban into a servant So that in the long run who is human between the two of them Who has the conscience 
<$C> Yeah There There's this other issue you know uh They prepare again for another possible tempest as they go back to <-/>to Milan uh uh <O/> at least uh optimistic of the language of uh Ferdinand and <-/>and Miranda But uh Caliban is left behind I <-/>I don't know <-_>I don't know<-/> if we can think about it especially with regard to what <name/> is saying You need not write another text you know by Shakespeare's <O_><O/> But I think that's basically what <name/> was trying to do anyway Why don't you begin from <./>Sha where Shakespeare ended in terms of the post colonial history which we <-/>which <-/>we are now experiencing And you know there's this issue you <-/>you everybody departs and Caliban is left on the island Has he then finally taken possession of the island Uh What's the How do you <-/>do <-/>you read that <name/> says that Caliban is not going to be the same again after this conduct How do you understand that Why is he not going to be the same again and yet all these colonialists have <O_><O/> All these fellows have you know departed Why is he not going to be the same again What does he mean by that Could anybody try it say something about it What <.-/>What does he mean <./>th that that conduct was enough uh and Caliban is not going to be the same
<$?> I <-/>I think uh Caliban cannot be the same again because we notice that Prospero has a complete influence over him He completely changes him uh from a <-/>a savage monster into a human being and that would be impossible of course So through that kind of changing of <-/>of Caliban we notice that Caliban has now acquired language for instance and consequent to that is his way of conceptualising the environment as able to change So after uh Prospero and the other people leave the island and he remains on this island we definitely know that Caliban <O_><O/> that island the same way as he did before Prospero came onto the scene So I think that's why you can what really makes him say that Caliban will not be the same again
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<$?> I remember I was reading another paper the other day It was saying that a mother had <O/> her son just because of drug The minute the kid told of uh the mother that he had been taken drug it was just too late By then it was it took only a few minutes or a few days before the boy finally hanged himself So such like situations are exactly what we're trying to <./>a avoid So instead of now setting up the punishment centres in the name of jails and the likes let us start <./>rehabilita uh rehabilitation centres And this therefore is uh involves every member of the society politicians environmentalists scientists sociologists linguists and name it So long as we are now having at least only one aim of solving the drug issue
<$B> All right That would be a good issue or a <-/>a good undertaking But remember we said in the morning that there are people who commit crimes so that they go to jail And when they are in prison for one month they ensure they commit another crime when they come out so that they go in Because in the jail they <-/>they <-/>they don't fetch for their own food They don't pay for shelter They don't care about clothes So if they were jailed for ten years they know those are ten trouble-free years I just sit in jail I eat Soon my stomach will adjust to the little portion of the food available Soon my body will adjust to the hard sleeping conditions And you know something becomes bad when you have a negative attitude towards it But you know you can choose not to sleep on a bed and sleep on the floor and be comfortable if it's your own choice The same case somebody who will go to prison because they want that they will not feel the punishment And we have people who have problems family difficulties what <-/>what So if they know that they can be admitted into a rehabilitation home if they are known to be taking drugs and therefore they will have escaped from their homes and go to a better situation Don't you think we'll have more people taking drugs so that they can be admitted into such homes 
<$?> But sir I suppose that those who've been admitted to these homes will be a good example for the rest We've <./>ha seen this in the past Now the reason why I'm so much against this whole issue of sending somebody to uh let's say jail is that when they go there even criminals they meet better criminals than they are and teach them even new techniques of committing even more serious crimes So by the time somebody leaves the prison he's even more harded criminal than he was when he went in So I suppose that if you take these people to rehabilitation centres as much as he feels that he should go there he will go there but then there he's not going to learn the new techniques of taking drugs But she is going to at least be taught of the new techniques of running away from the drugs So that would mean that if somebody goes there possibility of him changing there <-/>there is uh uh higher then possibility of him changing when he is in prison 
<$B> Okay Good I think what we do now we write a few points so that uh then we can start something else But when it's discussed this way I'm sure when you face these kind of arguments you'll be better off One of the things that I would like to say Most of these are things we have discussed The first thing that should be done is that the State Department of Justice and Defence should cover all entry points as it has been said to ensure that importation of drugs is stopped or minimised Entry points should be covered to ensure that uh importation of these drugs is stopped or minimised Secondly the society should fight against the inhuman situations that lead to drug taking such as unemployment poverty and uh the <-/>the <-/>the issue of street children because these are the people who are used to experiment on anything Such that if the society fought such uh inhuman situations then you are sure that many people will be leading busy lives and they have no chance for drugs Thirdly I think that citizens should be entitled to clear education on the effects of drugs on themselves and the society The citizens should be entitled to clear education on the effects of drugs on themselves and on the society Like most drug takers think that what they <-/>what <-/>they They are taking their own drugs They are not affecting anybody else They are using their own money They are using their own bodies And therefore it does not affect anybody else So it <./>d It <./>d depends on them <-/Fourthly> there should be open reorientation clinics where addicts can be helped out of the problem This is where most people who are addicts instead of putting them into jail as one of uh our colleagues our friends has said here they <-/>they should be given uh they should be given a chance where they will explain what led them to taking drugs so that you see whether it's a problem you can alter or it's something that you can take care of Like if somebody <-_end><+_ends> up taking drugs because of being disappointed by a friend that is somebody who is different from somebody who ended up taking drugs because of family frustrations Because that one who ended up to drugs because of a friend he can always get another friend But that one who ended up taking drugs because of family problems you cannot get another family If you start another one you have now two families But if you're a member of a family you are a member forever So you <-/>you saw that you see how even if it's a matter of linking the person with the family and see how you're going to take care of the situation Fifth heavy penalties should be imposed on drug traffickers and manufacturers Heavy penalties should be imposed on drug traffickers and manufacturers For example the seizing of their property The government if you are a drug trafficker and you are caught so that you can serve as a lesson to the others all your property The government should take it that you have <AmE>gotten your wealth from selling of drugs Therefore they should just get all your wealth And when you are poor and you will have no more money to go and import other drugs so if now you end up as a drug addict because of frustrations then now we can take you to a rehabilitation centre And if you are rehabilitated maybe you will stop taking the drugs Sixthly the youth should be encouraged to seek higher goals in life than pleasure and comfort The youth should be encouraged to seek higher goals in life than pleasure and comfort So that what one is looking for is just feeling nice And as soon as one has found comfort You <-/>You come from a family that is wealthy you will have a car and you did not work for it You <-/>You <-/>You have money you did not work for it You just go to <-/>to either your father's or your mother's shop you open the cash box and <-/>and get two or three hundred put in your pocket And uh the employee cannot stop you because maybe you are the only child And the only way to correct you is if you change your own goals Such that it is not anybody now changing you so that you see you have your own respectable life to lead But when you think you are living for other people or all your dreams are ever one day having a car When you find you have that car and a posh house if there are posh houses for that matter If when you find you have them that <-_mean><+_means> you don't need anything else you can go drinking You can take drugs And the situation where you'd not know the effects people land up in problems Unless somebody has a question on that affair I'd like that we go to something else so that we start our discussions on homosexuality and lesbianism Our friends might be wondering what we learn in this class We seem to be dealing with the negative issues that is the morality things that uh affect our society Yes 
<$?> I think that uh if let's say drug has to be eradicated then we even have to <-/>to stop let's say uh uh diplomats you know in the higher hierarchy of uh the government from let's say taking uh you know refreshments like whiskey you know such a liqueur you know Because actually uh drug <./>y you <-/>you cannot really define a point that uh this is where you know uh uh let's say such innocent liqueur stop and this is where drugs begin yeah So inasmuch as we may want to educate uh people on drugs but uh we can only reduce the number of drugs but we can't eliminate it It's part and parcel of society 
<$B> There is as you said there is one problem i e that the government gets a lot of taxes from uh such drugs as alcohol In our context it falls under drugs because its effects are almost similar to the other drugs It will cause family <./>break uh <-_breakages><+_breakage> It will cause character disorientation and all those kind of things But if you imagine the kind of money the government gets from Kenya Breweries you'd be joking to tell the Kenyan government to ban Kenya Breweries so that people stop taking beer And furthermore the policy makers our politicians most of them are drunkards They need it <./>th <./>th the way he needed it So <-/>So that they can tell us lies and not feel guilty you see They <-/>They <-/>They will need that one And when we talk of diplomats or people let's say representatives of other governments in Kenya <./>Tho Those ones have some sort of immunity You don't interfere very much with their private affairs You We have a case at hand The Rwandan diplomat who was accused of uh attempting murder When the government refused to undress him of the immunity so that now the Kenyan government can put him into court the best they could is deport him They couldn't put him in court of law So that is the kind of security that diplomats have because without that one you cannot be sure of the security of your people whom you have put everywhere You have some in America Canada where Saudi Arabia If you are not sure that nobody will interfere with them you will not have so many diplomats scattered all over the world But you know even if they're commit they're committing a crime it will be waited until they have finished their work or the government response will be to withdraw them from those countries When they have been withdrawn then they are going to be accused But you cannot be anywhere then you'll be caught and put in So we are saying that such people if they are taking drugs in their place if they come here where they stay is part of their country by the way The compounds they have been given that is part of their country Therefore if they are free to be taking drugs in Canada or America or where when they get to that residence of their own they are as free as they were when they were in their country to do what they want to They have no obligation to change their character because they are in <-/>in Kenya for example So they'll be free to take whiskey Whatever else hard alcohols they want to take or dry gins as they are called They will be free 
<$?> So in other words <O_><O/> uh should not just be <O_><O/> but also drugs We can't escape it
<$B> Uh It's difficult all right but what we are saying is it's something that needs attention At least especially drugs that get to a limit of spoiling a family an individual is something that should concern should concern us And for leisure purposes alcohol still remains moral 
<$?> Yeah I think this point of youth being encouraged to seek higher goals It's like these are idealistic views since that how <-/>how can we be able to uh <-/>to help them have a higher uh higher goals of life since especially <O_><O/> a person comes to drug addiction 
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<$?> Ensure that ensure that you have copies for customer <O/> so that your piles won't rumble down as soon as the customer just picks a copy Even if you have those high piles Yes they are good but then you should ensure that there is a stand-by copy there just next to the pile which is not on the pile so that a customer will just come pick it and browse through Otherwise if you just pile them up and then the customer can just come for any or he is just struggling to get any book from the pile then <./>you your stocks will come rumbling down and then there'll be chaos You'll not end up selling the book because the customer will get frightened maybe And avoid stacking old copies on their fore edge so that only their spine is showing Try to feature the books in your window displays fairly close to the door This is very important Then the customer gets the <-/>the book which he has seen he or she has seen just outside there when he was outside is the one he first meets when he enters inside the shop So that <-/>that is that one offers proximity advantage to the customer uh and it serves to reduce congestion and uncertainty on the part of the customer 
<$?> that prevents your customer from entering the shop most of the time Wouldn't it be better for us to indicate that this book that you are just seeing is a bit ahead so that he can enter and as he's walking through then he'll see other titles
<$?> I think we are coming to that but
<$?> I <-/>I <-/>I think once again <$?> You see <O/> want you to get the copy you saw immediately 'cause that means you have seen it and press through the shop <$?> It's a possibility But it's always advisable that the book we are seeing outside there he sees it right inside when he get he gets in But you can have the <-/>the cashier situated somewhere inside so that when he is just going to pay he'll still be passing through amidst some other books So he can be seeing other possible copies which can <O_><O/> 
<$?> Excuse me That's uh <-/>That's I think that's limited because you are assuming we're displaying only maybe a new title Suppose you have so many titles on display You don't know what I want I've seen it in the display So you can't <-_>you can't<-/> really say okay <-_>you can't really say<-/> okay let me put this one next to the entrance so that you <-/>you can just see it So I think uh Victor's point is valid You <./>ca If you can be So long as it's in the display it is somewhere in the shop You can go round in fact it can even be better to hide it the <-/>the <-/>the copy he wants so that as he goes looking for it he sees other titles 
<$?> Okay it's valid yes but then we proceed to the other <O/> that point describe it further So if we are displaying a wide selection from the stock as <name/> has just said that for example you have very many books okay It is advisable to try and have a typed list available so that the customer who asks for a particular book can be sent immediately to the correct location in the shop Is it clear 
<$?> Come again
<$?> I'm saying if we are displaying a wide selection of the stock in the window try to have a typed list available so that the customer who asks for a particular book can be sent immediately to the correct location in the shop 
<$B> 'Cause that is on assumption that you have a very big bookshop uh 
<$?> Yes 
<$B> with uh different types of books on stock 'Cause normally the practice is those people who are selling those who are the shop attendants usually take customers around uh even after maybe reading from the book where a specific book is located So unless you have quite many books you only Normally you find that they know different uh locations for various titles and they just lead the customer to where the book is located 
<$?> Make use of tables of even shapes especially round-topped tables These tables are very important because they make customers go round and round in a sort of vicious circle while looking for their books And so they hold them quite a bit for a while and then this may gives them time to make choices and to see even others for which they develop interest Has anyone <-/>anyone of you ever noticed such an arrangement of tables
<$B> And uh for the lazy ones you can even make the tables uh easy to rotate so that instead of one moving round you can just rotate it so that if the title that you want to look at is on that side then just rotate it slowly and uh to face you and be able to pick it and read it 
<$?> And it's even fascinating to note how <-/>how even in such a <-/>a rotating table someone can just stick there for almost ten minutes trying to rotate <O_><O/> And for good other good arrangements you can make them in sort of a conical shape The big books first uh The small books first that is a sort of a house-triangle that is you are having uh that uh a conical-shaped table It is rotating at a pivot Then you have racks here for your <-/>for <-/>your books so you can use a <-/>a smaller book here there Then there is a big book taller book that doesn't fit here that one goes for the <-/>for <-/>the other rack Similarly you can just arrange in such levels You see the title is there The other book's title is there so everybody can see And then there are sort of adjustments for the size of the book It can be adjusted <O_><O/> You can read <-/>read the book properly That is you have the The arrangement is just nice and attractive to customers Then it can be rotated from here to here to get a better glimpse of whatever you want to buy Shelfing and general stock You can ensure easy customer selection and self-service that is the best reach for your shelves should be <-_>should be<-/> <-/>be having a ground clearance of uh two-and-a-half feet from the ground and five-and-a-half feet high so that uh this ensures uh self-service uh amongst your customers and easy reach and selection Shelf stock should be rationally arranged see <./>Th There are fiction books you can arrange them alphabetically by author For the other general books you can arrange them by subject And another thing Usually stock rooms are neglected Yes you have your bookshop You have your operation area and the display But then you have your stock room In many cases these ones are neglected But according to me or rather in my view from the research I have done the stock rooms should not be neglected Books should also be kept logically there Maybe in subject and publisher order And let the type of order you choose for your operation zone that is your main area of the bookshop Let it match what is in the stock so that a book which is which a customer asks for can easily be located inside the stock To conclude I'd say that the sole purpose for a display is to enable you to sell your goods to customers as quickly and efficiently as possible It's there solely to tempt the would-be purchasers All in all what really matters is the approach to display Unless anybody has questions 
<$B> Yeah I would want us to visit the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the window where you have titles displayed I want us maybe to go and brainstorming on uh How should it exactly look like What could we include so that we really want to arrest this person who is passing by What things should we include uh together with books that we want to display What do we regard as crowd-pullers Something like what we said the card shops But what else could we include in the window 
<$?> power should have neon lights uh in order to attract <-/>attract the customers 
<$?> Yeah though for neon lights I think you have to be a bit careful with them because some tend to obscure the real mission of your work <$?> And to add on that it's very important in fact it's a <-/>a another point by itself for the prices price tags of your books on the displays I think they should be very much attractive and readable from a<-/> from afar so that they really entice the customer so that the customer will not be uncertain of what to meet inside there Not to meet wonders He just go surely knowing that this book is twenty shillings And he finds <-_>he finds<-/> that it's twenty shillings not going there to expect something else
<$?> Won't you discourage them from coming into the shop Many <-/>Many of the shops I've seen don't tell their customers this book is five hundred shillings they won't enter the shop 
<$?> But I think uh As for that one I think it's very much and subjective because for the <-/>for <-/>the customer to feel whether this book is just too expensive I tend to think that one will be an in-pass-by <O_><O/> Because for somebody uh Let's say somebody does medicine He surely knows that medicine books are very expensive So the price will not do any harm to him
<$?> I think the uh including the price in the display is a very good idea because not so uh okay You may not have the money when you are going to <-/>to buy a book You might <-_>You might<-/> have a book in mind But in the process of looking at the display you find a different book So you are not planned for that But if you know the price and maybe you have a chance you know to scan uh and read maybe the blurb and think the book is good you know whether to bargain <-/>to <-/>bargain for it or not So I think the price is <./>i important and then again maybe when you're buying a book you're not <-/>you're <-/>not only buying it from one uh maybe bookshop There are so many bookshops in town Uh You <-/>You can compare prices It <-/>It uh <-/>It helps you a lot instead of going to <-/>to maybe shy off if it's not included you might shy off uh to ask to the counter because you are not <-_>you are not<-/> even intending to buy it you don't have the money so you you're <-/>you're even afraid Oh if I ask uh maybe these guys will tell me Oh how much do you have And you can bargain and strike a deal or something So I think uh including the price is okay 
<$?> It's even more convenient for you to see for yourself the price rather than go disturb those people You see to you how much it would be more like disturbing them And they are very much uh I mean most of them they are very arrogant Although that's the wrong attitude
<$?> Okay there is two aspects which pricing can discourage For example uh most books went by <O_><O/> Then you know people get influenced by what they see first isn't it Say like I see and the first book I see is seven hundred and twenty-eight shilling because this bookshop is very expensive That might affect me for a very long time Then what I suggest is we should not do away the prices but should not be so much highlighted You know like all that we see is price not the books You just see the books there but you have prices and you have got good ones but not so much highlighted so that if I want to know the price on the books as he says I move forward and check the price But not that I'm far away and seeing seven hundred eight hundred as first impression
<$?> So which one is more weighty putting the 
<$?> The book should be displayed there so that people passing by are attracted by the goodness of the book not the price of the book in most cases The book should attract me not the price
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<$C> I was just noting something here that uh we have said actually politics is very important in language planning And uh we cited the case of Tanzania that uh <ea/>Mwalimu Julius Nyerere actually spearheaded the popularisation of Kiswahili And uh from what we've said about Kenya uh even up to now the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the important leaders the powerful leaders in the country have all along been propagating for the use of Kiswahili more than English and uh as the case is they have not succeeded so much So can we maybe look at uh can we maybe cite other factors other than politics that have uh popularised English Because if it was just solely politics that is concerned with language planning then I don't see the reason why Kiswahili has not uh been so much popularised as English in <./>Ke I mean in <-/>in Kenya Could there be other factors other than uh politics 
<$A> What do you think
<$C> I don't know 
<$D> I think we talked <-_>we talked<-/> about uh ideology I think that is still going back to politics But I think uh in Kenya we maybe look at uh the functions that uh English plays as the official language I think the functions are more and if we look at uh the functions not all of them can be said to be political Like if we say English is the language of the labour system in Kenya I don't know whether that is political or how we say that English is the one that is being used in the educational system though it is <-_>it is<-/> still the the government that implements this 
<$C> So what we are saying is that I want to although this could be outside of what we are saying but uh what the politicians are trying to do like Kenyatta what he was doing was actually cosmetic maybe to <-/>to <-/>to get the support of the people But in the real sense if he really wanted to implement the use of Kiswahili as a national language he could have succeeded Because he was just maybe going to parliament only when there are so many other arms of the government so many other spheres in <-/>in <-/>in <-/>in the society that could maybe promote Kiswahili for example in education Even up to recently like in our education system we didn't Kiswahili was not examined at what primary school And yet the <-/>the same politicians actually were uh trying to <-/>to show the people that they were really for the African language that was Kiswahili So I <-/>I look at it as cosmetic They were really get trying to get the support of the people but they were not serious enough to promote Kiswahili as a national language 
<$D> I mean that comes down to the same thing but uh we have got the <-/>the elitist trying to exercise power over the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the majority That is actually what it waters down to Because if you look at it I'm trying to look at it from the point of view of the <-/>the few Kenyans who have been educated at independence and the others that went out after independence those the organised what do you call the flights
<$?> <O/> the air-lifts 
<$D> the air-lifts to the US Most of uh uh those personalities went out they came back and uh very few if any were propagating the aspect of us using Kiswahili or indigenous languages apart from the time as you said that they when they wanted to go in to ask for the votes from uh their constituency So uh ideally uh in Kenya the use or rather language planning or planning as a process has been used uh to exercise a kind of control uh especially in the past where we were not exposed to information and that is exactly what is happening right now that uh you find that uh the mass media particularly the radio is still governed and controlled by the government and uh this has not enabled us in fact that might be one of the reason why Kiswahili has not spread out as much because some people are very good in speech that if you gave him time to speak in Kiswahili uh give him air time in Kiswahili he'll talk so much and so well that at the end of the day he might end up discrediting the same <-/>same uh uh arm that gave him the uh <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the allowance for the air waves So I think there has been this control there has been this exercising of power by the elite over the majority There is uh a status quo that is trying to be maintained by using uh uh language-planning processes Uh So as much as we are advocating uh that we want everybody to become educated we want everybody to become literate I think in Kenya as you put it it's really cosmetic And uh apart from the fact that <./>Kiswa uh English has several other roles to perform I think we can also pick up like Tanzania we are not any less uh than what Tanzanians are We can also pick up but I think that idea of trying to maintain that uh difference in terms of uh economic uh classes and maybe political groupings and then we have to bring in the aspect of language planning 
<$B> I think we can look at Kenyatta as a man who was uh in two linguistic camps maybe for <-/>for his own political gains First of all here on the other hand on one hand he was uh promoting the use of Kiswahili through decrees but he never <-_>he never<-/> got down to see the implementation of this in the wider political constituency And on the other hand he oversaw the use of English as the official language in maybe the official circles the <-/>the parliament up to nineteen seventy-four and the education system So if we look at him he was trying to maintain his political ideology that is of capitalism because he the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the government had to use English in order to identify with the West And when it comes now to the masses themselves when it comes to the vote he had to go back to the masses everybody had to go back to the masses
<$A> <./>Wa <./>was was the adoption of English merely to identify with the West 
<$B> It's also had a I think long colonial history in Kenya
<$A> What was that
<$B> It had been used by the British colonial powers 
<$C> And it was actually that it had been socialised into the Kenyans especially those ones at that time of independence they believed that anybody who <-_speaked><+_spoke> English was more competent in terms uh it gave them <./>s <./>s as we said status prestige power and so on and so forth it was associated with that So that the <-/>the young Kenyans at independence the <-/>the <-/>the <-_elites><+_elite> took up this wholesale and uh did not try to see the <./>ra rational behind it and therefore they also uh propagated the same ideas They also wanted to feel still up there and the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the majority down there so such that <./>th they also looked at almost the same level at uh as uh that we were <./>lo viewing the colonial masters So the elite uh aspect really is like uh as he put it a colonial legacy <./>th that has spilled over to the language and the emotions
<$A> How do you link that with uh with Fishman's assertion in one of the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the quotations there that uh one language policy was being uh advocated to enhance economic and political development Can you link those two
<$C> I didn't quite get you 
<$A> What did you say about Fishman and technological <./>develop economical and technological development 
<$B> Maybe I can before he says something I could say something about it that uh actually after independence the <-/>the major issue was uh to see that Kenya was developing to catch up with the <-/>the rest of the world And in I mean to do this it was not supposed to be isolated but it had to depend on the <-_>on <-/>on the<-/> West which was developed to <-/>to <-/>to also uh catch up on development 
<$A> Not necessarily the West That is one thing that you shouldn't be saying because it comes out so naturally that the West but that is really not the point It isn't just the West 
<$B> Okay
<$A> But anyway go on go on 
<$B> Yeah The point I'm trying to make here is that uh because of the need for economic development Kenya actually saw the need to use a <-/>a <-/>a <-/>a language that is that had an international perspective 
<$A> Yeah that is the thing yeah
<$B> and English actually came in handy 
<$A> That is the thing So the emphasis in the Kenyan uh political circles was first economic development That was primary in Tanzania it wasn't that that's where the difference in ideology comes in In Tanzania the primary purpose of the political the ruling political party was to develop the <-/>the villages in Tanzania egalitarianism you all know what egalitarianism means We all share the little that we have We all have access to it And then spread political power to as many people as possible And how fast how <-/>how can you use the language to do that Use the language that most of the people already understand So when you're talking about economic development economic development of the villages it is not economic development emphasising export trade Because in Kenya we're talking about export import trade Huge volumes you can look at the statistics very huge So you see our <-/>our <-/>our gross national product is huger than Tanzanian's But when you look at what actually trickles down to the villages in Kenya it's negligible Whereas in Tanzania you find everybody is getting their little bit So it <./>i now it's a question of ideology Which language will help Tanzanians achieve their political goals so they opted for Kiswahili the language of the masses because it is the masses that they were focusing on In Kenya it was capitalism which actually concentrates power on the hands of a few And those few are the few that actually knew English already And that's why the question asks uh uh talking about language planning <-_elitisism><+_elitism> and control political control How is language planning facilitating control political control of the few over the many That is what the person was asking and that is why what I wanted to <-/>to see from your paper and I wasn't quite seeing it It is not necessarily true that that happened in Kenya but that is just one way of looking at it The socialists like <name/> uh Phillipson that you have also read will give it that <-/>that slant but that is not necessarily the case You can defend Kenya too if you like It doesn't have to be seen in that light So do we see the difference between Kenya and Tanzania I mean that is not all you can say You can talk about it over and over again there are so many ways of looking at it But that's just <-_>that's just<-/> one way of looking at it You saw what Mazrui and Mazrui are saying in that book rather sketchy but they also give you some interesting things to <-/>to think about How about the question Leitham is proposing there that the language gain 
<$B> The equation that I was given 
<$A> You don't have to do talk about it in detail but does it make sense to you 
<$B> I only got the book this morning It wasn't there yesterday so
<$A> Oh I uh can you go and look at it again
<$B> The equation here says three plus and minus one 
<$A> Yeah
<$B> I found it a bit interesting I just started looking at it 
<$A> Well the language gain that he's discussing there is interesting and it should explain what you <-/>you <-/>you <-/>you were saying about Kenyatta's pronouncements that we should use our <-/>our mother tongue <O_><O/> our Kiswahili because it is an indigenous language But at the same time we <-/>we retain English The reason why what uh politicians say come to naught is that legally English is enjoying a status that is superior to that of Kiswahili So it doesn't matter what the 
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<>$2> By higher goals of uh I just <./>f <./>f <I <-/>I <-/>I fell short of mentioning what higher goals because it will look so dogmatic but I'm saying even higher goals of such things like religion Such that people who should seek even peace with their creator as a goal to <-/>to look up for Maybe and since most religion for this matter do not advocate the taking of drugs we in other words say that those who are who look for that those kind of goals they are not going to end up being to taking drugs Apart from the kind of distorted humanism we have the <-/>the <-/>the one of uh associated with uh reggae music and uh bang taking Apart from that kind of disoriented humanism most religions are against drug use And I'm talking of such things and also even a goal of being a responsible family person is a higher goal than just driving a car After you've driven the car you have died we have buried you What next But at least if you are responsible family person <./>y <./>y your <-/>your efforts will be benefiting more than one person Those are the kind of goals that we are saying And if you are uh going on well in academics hope to do well and uh go on and on and not say Oh I'm now a graduate I can drink and eat as though the world has <-/>has ended Just the way you say you wait the day you'll be finishing here You walk and people say my life is now full After two days they have discovered that's not the end of it Leaving campus is not the end of life So they should be encouraged to seek higher goals that's what I meant So let's discuss homosexuality By the way what do you <./>pe people think is homosexuality Now that you are so quiet Anyone out there That's why I did not continue the other discussion <$?> Uh Two Homosexuality is the indulgence in sexual affairs by two <-/>two people of two males 
<$B> Okay Yeah That is what is uh called homosexuality <O/> homosexuality is the opposite of heterosexuality And heterosexuality is sex between a male and a female But now homosexuality is sex Even at this time we still have problems whether it is sex even But it is It is that uh association that is almost close to sex between <-/>between men between two males And uh do you think that homosexuality should be allowed or not allowed And if not why Before we <-/>we see how they argue <O/> remembering that we said that people have things that are called natural rights and individual rights that should not be interfered with 
<$?> Actually we are finding ourselves in a fast-changing world a fast-changing society And uh you know things which were formerly uh inadmissible which were not uh admitted you know in society are nowadays being admitted Such things as uh homosexuality such things as you know abortion According to me homosexuality should not be allowed in society
<$B> Why
<$?> Because uh for one it uh actually contravenes or goes against the natural laws that govern us It is very unnatural for one male to uh to go with another male you know It's very unnatural you know They were not made for such You see that is why I feel that homosexuality should not be allowed But we are finding <./>o ourselves in a society where even the homosexuals have uh their rights on what they want and what they <-/>they don't want They are nowadays even allowing one male to marry another male you know to have weddings Uh <./>S <./>S Such that actually homosexuality's just a very small aspect of the whole problem 
<$B> Then what is uh That's a man talking about homosexuality But we are joining both homosexuality and lesbianism because the arguments that go along with it are the same You people think that uh lesbianism should be allowed Do you understand what it is Do you people understand what <./>les lesbianism is It's the opposite of uh homosexuality Now this is the relationship between two women They are the only ones who know how they do it But do you think it should be encouraged Because one of the arguments is that men misused women Because women feel uh men feel that uh women cannot satisfy their uh uh natural sex urge without males Therefore they feel that that is one of the things that men use to dominate or domineer women Based on the <-/>the great movement that we have today in the world of uh gender freedom or gender equality should lesbianism be encouraged as a form of women liberation of I want the ladies to talk first Yeah <name/> What do you say
<$?> Uh I think I will identify with <name/> I don't think it is right for the society to allow <./>lesh lesbianism to continue because it's it is against the natural rules
<$B> Who lays down both of you are very natural Who lays down natural rules Or is it maybe what we get used to is what we think is natural but that not that may not necessarily be the case People can also get used to what is unnatural in our opinion
<$?> Now there is what you call uh normalising the abnormal That's exactly what's really taking root in our society Now if a Bible is any authority to go by then I suppose that after God had created Adam he later did make uh Eve and then told them to populate Now remember this was not be told to Adam alone Now this is not to say that we are going to take it because the authority of the Bible is still questionable Now but if we are to go by that then we realise that in this situation therefore a sexual relationship is therefore to involve two opposite sexes Even the animals which are being uh saved by Noah's ark they were just taken in two by two of two different sexes not two animals of the same sex Now uh as much as women are saying that uh they are being misused is understandable But who says that two wrongs make a right Because seemingly as they are encouraging lesbianism they are only arguing that men are misusing them We cannot solve a problem by running away from uh from it Let women themselves try to at least uh handle men uh make them docile that is And then <-/>then there is another thing which is really encouraging this <./>homosexua uh lesbianism that is Now I was reading another article which was saying that in New York itself it's got one million plus women over men Mark you there in this situation assuming that every man is to marry But we got the Jews who are somehow uh thinking that they are selected and they should not be <O/> Now we've got uh those who are really into the church and they don't want to marry We've got some men whom in themselves are very got very queer kind of character It is actually the homosexuals we are talking about here They also don't want to marry So in this situation that men or women also find themselves in a very kind of fixed situations and some circumstances
<$B> So in that case you justify their action because they have no choice Now that men have opted not to come to them 
<$?> Remember I said that two wrongs never make a right 
<$B> So
<$?> So that therefore means that as much as women are trying to <./>encoura I mean to at least appeal for lesbianism as another way of uh uh satisfying their sexual urge it's not the best alternative There are so many other alternatives like encouraging for uh what you call it where a man is encouraged to marry more than three or four wives 
<$B> polygamous
<$?> <O/>
<$B> Uh polygamy I think let's <-/>let's do <-/>let's <-/>do this Arguments for homosexuality They fall into the general the general category of social and moral reasons Arguments for homosexuality that's the arguments that homosexuality some homosexuals offer <-/>offer They fall into the general category of social and moral reasons One of the arguments is that there should be no sexual constraints among consenting adults There should be no sexual constraints among consenting adults What this one means is that uh when somebody like They are not the people we discussed with the power of the law of contract The law of contract mean demands that when you sign a contract with somebody you must be of sound mind and you should be also of reasonable age where you can be referred to as an adult And based on that which is a right cause when you sign a contract with somebody you have now a right to the services that that person has contracted you to benefit from him And now basing on that one this is what now the this is where they get the argument that when two adults consent to have sex with one another there should be nobody to interfere with them After all it's their own body What are the social effects of homosexuality It's only the two and they have consented So what is the society alarmed about It should let them continue That is their freedom As long as they have agreed among themselves then there should be no problem This is what to say While admitting that forced sex and sexual abuse of children are wrong That is what they argue While admitting that forced sex and sexual abuse of children are wrong many sexual many homosexuals contend that it is a violation of their freedom many homosexuals contend that it's a <./>viola <-/>a violation of their freedom to prohibit any free sexual expressions to prohibit any free sexual expressions What two persons do sexually and freely is their own moral business 
<$?> Question sir
<$B> Yes
<$?> You see uh with this argument therefore 
<$B> Yes
<$?> Where does it place bestiality then
<$B> Placing what 
<$?> Bestiality That is uh having uh you know <./>s sex with uh an animal 
<$B> Uh <./>Th This is argument for homosexual can be based on this also <./>y you will now root out the issue over the animal because the animal did not consent because the animal cannot reason 
<$?> It didn't sign a contract
<$B> and it is not under any contract It did not sign But they are saying that uh what will happen with two between two people who have consented it's their moral business you should not uh interfere <./>Wha What do you think about it 
<$?> Because this is a situation whereby like in Europe you know in the West <O_><O/> you know a woman can decide she has a pet dog Uh But you know she's keeping this uh pet dog for sexual purposes you know Even in Kenya here we find a situation whereby some communities after a certain football uh match where uh they have overwhelming victory you know they <-/>they get an animal and they have sex with the animal you know Even in <-/>in the West modern technology actually has come up with uh you know artificial vaginas uh vibrators you know It's all the same thing
<$B> Oh I thought you <O_><O/> or you are raising a story But there are people when they <-/>they win <./>foot football matches in Kenya they'll they <-/>they go raping animals 
<$?> Yeah Animals They even buy you know just a loaf of bread for sexual purposes such things 
<$?> That's not on community basis That's just an abuse of humanity No community can make that part of its day to day goings 
<$B> Have you heard of it like Have you heard of that what he said
<$?> Uh well I was born and brought up with him in almost the same area But it's news for me 
<$?> I heard about it 
<$B> Uh So at least he has a witness 
<$?> Yeah and I know what he's saying is a bit true Not a bit It's true and I think it can be such that 
<$B> That's <-/>That's chaotic I think that one now is absurd If even <-/>If <-/>even bread is going to be a moral issue as it comes to sexual behaviour So we are saying in other words that is one of their arguments that their freedom as long as uh two people have consented then they should not be interfered with Secondly the right to privacy protects <./>homoshex uh homosexuality The right to privacy protects homosexuality They argue that women <./>constituti constitutionally have a right of privacy over their <./>ow over their own bodies 
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<$?> And then uh I want to ask another question Uh Yes You <./>Yo Uh How long should the display remain For example how <-/>how <-/>how much should you change your displays and what should be the time period and reason of changing the displays
<$?> The change of the display by the currency of the book and the way the books are selling the rate of selling that is. For the book which is selling relatively fast I think most people know that what book that is and it's good qualities But for a book which is going slowly that is selling slowly rather should be displayed at least to create that impression <O_><O/> there's a book there 
<$?> I have another question Uh now because I'm a uh a regular buyer of books it will <-/>it <-/>will reach a point where I might not even be interested in the display How <-/>How do you maintain that I be interested in the display How <-/>How <-/>How do you suggest that we arrange uh the new arrivals and the old uh the <-/>the <-/>the old uh titles which are still in the display How do you suggest Is there a pattern that you can <-/>you <-/>can maybe divide the display section that new arrivals and the old titles 
<$?> That's a very good suggestion For us to have divided displays sort of just demarcate like uh sections within the window displays You put new arrivals <O_><O/> such things So that when somebody sees these are new arrivals you just come and rush in to see what is there that is so new Then he just go inside to see the new arrivals I think that one will be <-_>will be<-/> good to maintain your customers because as far as business is concerned you need to maintain your old customers and to attract new customers 
<$?> Okay I was wondering in case a bookshop manager There are some occasions whereby you find that uh uh a book is on display but as soon <-/>as <-/>soon as you go inside inquiring you are told that the book is out of stock Then I was wondering whether it's good As <-/>As soon as the book has come out of uh the stock maybe due to limits in supply should we remove the book from the display Because it might make us lose credibility among the customers
<$?> I think that one is rather subjective but it's advisable still to put it on the display but 
<$B> I <-/>I don't think it's advisable to retain it on the display if the <-/>the title has run out of stock because uh it may even affect the good-will that customers have towards your bookshop because customers want to get what they can see What about this <-/>this aspect of uh music Where do you think we can apply music It is a shop inside a shop 
<$B> But do you think that you can have a very small speaker maybe some piped <-/>piped music from uh inside the shop You could have a speaker next to the <-/>the <-/>the window display with some recording maybe instead of having the new arrival uh new arrivals written on a <-/>a <-/>a <-/>a poster or something like that you could have a recording that tells people These are the new books that we've uh acquired 
<$?> I think on music I think it should still be inside and outside the shop Outside that the piped music on the window display will be enticing the viewer. The kind that is telling people Hey in our bookshop there are only competitive prices Why don't you step in There are new arrivals Then when they get inside there is cool relaxed music so that they are not in a hurry to choose
<$?> I think also music uh despite uh having it in the <-_>in the<-/> bookshop should also <-_>should also<-/> come in the display Because uh imagine a situation where I am just walking I'm in a hurry I <-/>I might not have the time to look <-/>look at the display the new arrivals and all that Then something obstructs me Some music playing next to the wall And then I look Oh I find that very beautiful and attractive display Then I <-/>I I'll <-/>I'll be forced maybe to stop for a minute or two and which can lead even to twenty minutes or something and I can even end up buying I think that music should also fit uh to the display although not so loud but at least <-_>at least<-/> 
<$?> And especially in big towns and more so is Eldoret whereby most people who live around <-/>around here they are farmers Did you take into consideration what you are going to put in <-/>in the display the kind of display so that you can attract many different groups of a town
<$?> Yes I think that one is very subjective and depends on the town in question You see for every town <./>th the people of that locality has a certain have a certain characteristic that is And for the type of business you are in that is the bookshop business you know your customers well because before you established your bookshop you had a market research to ascertain the viability of the what you are going to do the business you are going to do And you know the readers who are to be coming to your shop So it serves to explain that for every area there are customer characteristics and there are things which are unique features which are unique to that particular type of customers Maybe if it's a highly agricultural area you know they <-/>they might be very much looking for agricultural goods That one you might have considered before opening your bookshop And that one can be reflected in the <-/biasness> of your stock You can be highly biased on the agricultural information if most of your customers are farmers I think that one can be taken care of that way If it's an urban area you have all sorts of styles so you can display the great greatest variety of <./>pos of books possible 
<$?> Uh I <-/>I want to revisit this issue whereby you say that for If it's possible whoever is looking at the display should see through the shop Uh There <-/>There are cases where that one might not really be uh positive It might have a negative impact on the <-/>the people who are seen For example okay uh as a buyer and ordinary buyers for that matter you <-/>you one <-/>one indicator that the shop is good or maybe the books are good is to see uh maybe there are so many people in the shop But now for example if I see through the display and there's nobody in the shop apart from one uh somebody only seated there at the uh <-/>the <./>ca uh <-/>the cashier there So you can you can imagine although the prices might be good but I wonder Are these uh do people buy things from this shop or not I can <-/>can have that hesitance So I think uh to an extent also that should be relative Uh It depends If the buyers are If it's an enlightened town society where people value books then that one is okay But for our case and in most uh places or maybe wherever I've been working I find it is still applicable to block the display from seeing the shop 
<$?> And I think for that one we use The problem can be traced back to the <O/> of a book-buying culture It's almost universal because for most cases you find that there are peak seasons and very low seasons such that even <-/>even in the most competitive bookshops you can enter and find almost nobody only the attendants there But in the peak season maybe people are uh schools are re-opening you find all the bookshops are stacked even if they don't have see-through window displays is it That one is relative to time
<$?> Take for example here in the library You are not sure whether it's open or not And you come here and you see they have opened the door Then you see So you are not seeing the door opened You are not seeing anybody They could be operating but you are <-_>you are<-/> likely just to go ahead and pass And if the door was open though there was nobody inside you know they are operating What I'm trying to say is blocking exactly throughout <O_><O/> are not seeing anything can be a problem also because you don't know whether people are inside there or not and you don't want to be the first one to get in You know that kind of thing But if it's open at least you see the cashier already Maybe one person You may want <-_>you may want<-/> to get in Or you may see many people which will be much better for you because so many people are getting in So I think you should also show that 
<$?> I think it can even serve as a control where the idling attendants the seemingly idling attendants inside there can beckon customers Because they can see them 
<$?> one thing can attract this one and the other attracts the other one So that e.g. that person who is passing and does not and sees there is nobody inside It's like even if that person saw a crowd inside So it's like whatever you do you may not actually end up attracting anybody but at least you may attract one person if it's only yourself
<$?> Uh now since there are so many display styles and all that do you suggest that you maintain one routine display or you keep on changing display formats and styles 
<$?> It's good to have various display styles and keep on changing so that any every time a customer comes he may find something different Even if he's used to that place he finds Oh it's quite changed So he wants to have a new taste on things That way he comes inside
<$B> And even the position It's actually advisory to change positions of the books so that if you put this book at the right-hand corner this uh for the for two days Next time you remove it from there take it to the centre or maybe to the left-hand corner In that way people not even come to think uh of your bookshop as though it's holding only in stock books that are not being bought 
<$?> I have something to say against displays outside First of <-_>First of<-/> all books deteriorate when exposed to strong sunlight You know the quality of paper is rather poor Secondly that can encourage shoplifting and other extra expenses for somebody security men to be keeping watch over your items And they'll still be accumulating dust so somebody has to be there dusting all the times and in <-/>in fact he'll be obscuring the would-be purchasers when he is dusting So it's advisable to have them inside And then there's the window display
<$B> Well but what do you think about that Don't you think having them outside could even make the would-be customers feel free to look at the books maybe get hold of them feel them read the back uh look at the pages If <-/>If you have enough security and if you make the surrounding well taken care of for example if you have a cemented area where you don't have a lot of dust and if you have shades whereby you wouldn't have direct sunlight uh and uh affecting the books <./>do <./>ca don't you think that could also be a good idea 
<$?> I think that one can work well in peak season when there's so much activity Or when the peak season is just coming to an end and then you want to maximise sales. That way you can have a sort of exhibition just outside in the veranda of the shop so that everybody now can see come have a glance and then see there are multitudes of people inside then walk right inside and jostle for a place to just have a <-/>a glimpse of what is in stock 
<$?> I <-/>I feel books need to be taken care of One when you place books outside there there's a lot of dust And you got to protect them from dust Secondly sunlight wind and all that can be very bad for the books and also the <-/>the temperatures And also when people are really browsing through them it's likely to tear and wear of the book The mutilation of the book can also take place outside there So I think the display should be within the bookshop at least not <-/>not outside 
<$?> Okay <O_><O/> maybe one <-_>maybe one<-/> copy of each title And the process maybe by doing that is only three-fifty copies So maybe you <-/>you can always sacrifice one that one copy maybe if this is a way to make higher profit
<$B> But what is the trend in the book trade I think in a society like Kenya's where we know people are even afraid of getting into bookshops you want to take the book as close as possible to the people So you find that books are even being sold in churches so that after the mass or after the service you <-/>you <-/>you could have a very small uh staff just display your books outside the door so that uh as people come out of the church they can have a look at the books and maybe have a feeling of buying the books and the bookseller makes a sale uh instantly So actually the trend is taking the books to as informal places as possible to where you don't even expect to have a book because we want to convince people that books are part and parcel of their live They really need them They can't avoid them For their well-being they need to be entertained They need to be educated So each and every category <-/>category of books is being taken to the final consumers