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<I> <$A> <#/>The impact of the <-/>the address which would be the Zanzibar President's in the House uh of <-_>the House of<-/> Representatives Zanzibar on eighteenth <#/>What was it eighteenth of 
<$B> <#/>November
<$A> <#/>Okay the day is not important but uh what the issue we was talking  about we are therefore maybe uh the question to address ourselves is what we materialise or what we think of the address which was <-_>which was<-/> made by the Zanzibar Presidents
<$B> <#/>I think Mr Juma wants to say something maybe uh
<$C> <#/>Not out of uh the question <#/>What you're trying to discuss now is about the current situation and the near future of about the position of the 
<$B> <#/>the political situation 
<$C> <#/>Yeah and the position of Zanzibar President then is that what you're discussing
<$B> <#/>Yeah
<$C> <#/>Yeah in my opinion and in my considered opinion it has shocked me to a large extent to see that the status of the Zanzibar President is going to be minimised though the Tanzanian Union government is maintaining that the status of Zanzibar government of the President of Zanzibar is going to I mean to increase to be increased but in actual fact it's like becoming uh a region and is not like uh a state or as a nation state but it's more like a region <#/>You see to have a President <O/> what you call a flag is nothing it's like a commissioner of a regional officer or someone else <#/>So to my <./>mi <-_>to my<-/> mind I think this should not be implemented in the near future and I also stressed it to my fellow Zanzibari who are maybe in Zanzibar or somewhere else to come out with a different argument suggestion and proposal or advice about this <#/>This should not be taken for granted that is if it is the situation that is very conducive for Zanzibari <#/>You see most of the changes that are being done in the present situation are only benefit  one side of the <-_coins><+_coin> not the other side of the coin <#/>The mainlanders are the ones who pressurise things for their own benefit <#/>I have seen and I've tried to summarise three items that have tried and that have already impinged on Zanzibar <#/>One was as soon as Zanzibar joined the OIC what happened I mean the President of <./>Zanzi was forced in one way or another to <-/>to withdraw from the 
<$B> <#/>But that was contrary to the constitution
<$C> <#/>Who give  the permission to the President to sign this
<$B> <#/>Yes <#/>Zanzibar does not have power
<$C> <#/>Wasn't there a President in Tanzania Union government wasn't there
<$B> <#/>What What
<$C> <#/>Who give  the permission for Zanzibar President to sign  contract to join OIC
<$B> <#/>But why they neglect  Zanzibar
<$C> <#/>Pull out
<$B> <#/>Yes <#/>Why
<$C> <#/>This is just a
<$B> <#/>Yes <#/>Because there was sentenced that it was contrary to the constitution
<$C> <#/>Secondly was also about the question of whether or not to <-/>to remove the passport when you go to Zanzibar and it was officially accepted 
<$B> <#/>Yes <#/>Because this is one country <#/>Why then would uh the mainlanders should carry their passports  when going to Zanzibar <#/>It's just one country
<$C> <#/>Basically it's one country but we have got this is uh is just part of the uh another I mean continent <#/>It is <-/>is not in another country but you've got uh this is mainland and that is island
<$B> <#/>Yes <#/>But it's one country it's just uh 
<$C> <#/>That is <#/>But let us take the length and the width of Zanzibar island and the people who are there <#/>What do you think if there are so many people are just coming in the country
<$B> <#/>And why there are so many people in Tanzania mainland
<$C> <#/>You see the space
<$B> <#/>Many Zanzibari are there
<$C> <#/>The space
<$B> <#/>What is
<$C> <#/>For instance <-_>for instance<-/> in Tanzania mainland
<$B> <#/>I think you tend to be uh
<$C> <#/>No no no <#/>For instance in Tanzania mainland there are about twenty-two million people who are residing in Tanzania mainland but in Zanzibar we are about only seven <-/>seven hundred thousand I think yeah about seven hundred thousand <#/>Therefore how do you <-_>how do you<-/> expect twenty-seven million people to be allowed to come in islands which only reside seven hundred thousand people 
<$B> <#/>Yes <#/>But that does not mean that the all the Dar es Salaam all Tanzania residents or all the mainlanders will go to Zanzibar
<$C> <#/>You know <./>whe <./>whe <./>whe <./>whe
<$B> <#/>No they are just uh 
<$C> <#/>You know when you are planning you have to think for the future
<$B> <#/>Yes but don't you think
<$C> <#/>You don't 
<$B> <#/>You don't think that uh that cannot be practical <#/>How can you imagine that when uh the government decides that uh their people from mainland should not carry their passports when go to Zanzibar does it mean that all the mainlanders will go to Zanzibar <#/>Of course not 
<$C> <#/>But it might have been
<$B> <#/>On  what circumstances
<$C> <#/>No they <-/>they <-/>they might <-_>they might<-/> decide to go there just to maybe for leaving 
<$B> <#/>Leaving all their things only
<$C> <#/>Why not <#/>Why there are so many
<$B> <#/>For what purposes
<$C> <#/>What there are so many Zanzibaris <-_in><+_on> Tanzania mainland
<$B> <#/>Yes there are so many Zanzibaris and uh <-_in><+_on> Tanzania mainland 
<$C> <#/>Why
<$B> <#/>and uh the <-/>the mainland is not affected
<$C> <#/>Why
<$B> <#/>Why
<$C> <#/>The question is why 
<$B> <#/>are the mainlanders not uh
<$C> <#/>No no no <#/>the question is why there are so many Zanzibaris in
<$B> <#/>Well there are so many angles to look at this <#/>One of them is economic for economic reasons <#/>Therefore most of them find it more profitable uh to live in <-/>in Dar es Salaam and other mainland regions
<$A> <#/>You know I think <-_>I think<-/> the question which we should address ourselves is what is <-_>what is<-/> the reason behind of  the <-_>of the<-/> bill which was tabled before the parliament you know because we have what we have seen is the well I can say the disintegration of Zanzibar of Zanzibari nationality
<$B> <#/>Do you mean Zanzibar is
<$A> <#/>Yeah <#/>it's becoming to be
<$B> <#/>It's becoming disintegrated
<$A> <#/>Yeah <#/>That's what I wanted to say and therefore what <-/>what <-/>what I think we should address ourselves is why mainlanders are championing of bringing  about these changes in the constitution and some other things <#/>That is a question which we should
<$B> <#/>Yes <#/>because they uh see that uh they have been uh exploited by the Zanzibaris
<$A> <#/>No
<$B> <#/>For quite a long time 
<$A> <#/>No you have just
<$B> <#/>Yes no
<$A> <#/>No you have just heard today from the radio that Tanzania <-/continental> is poorer than Zanzibar <#/>This is the it is the third or which place was it
<$B> <#/>Tanzania mainland 
<$A> <#/>Tanzania mainland 
<$B> <#/>uh The second to Mozambique
<$A> <#/>The second to Mozambique <#/>Zanzibar was not mentioned
<$B> <#/>Yes it was not mentioned uh
<$A> <#/>Because we are <O/>]
<$B> <#/>Yes you <-/>you <-/>you have benefited a lot
<$A> <#/>No 
<$B> <#/>Yes
<$A> <#/>No that's not the point
<$B> <#/>Okay let us hear Mr Juma <#/>Maybe he has got something to say
<$C> <#/>Yeah <#/>In addition to what I was trying to say was that I mentioned to us but in the last one is that the position of Zanzibar President which is going to be minimised <#/>So all these three trends are the ones that are <./>re really and objectively done to ensure that Zanzibar is no longer as a state as itself now
<$B> <#/>It's no longer a state
<$C> <#/>Yes
<$B> <#/>What do you mean
<$A> <#/>But what's the meaning of a state
<$B> <#/>A state is a nation or is a group of people or let me call let me conceptualise at the national level
<$A> <#/>Okay
<$C> <#/>is the
<$B> <#/>You're having nostalgia for your beloved lecturer Dr Max Mmuya
<$C> <#/>Yeah <#/>What he say  a state without uh <#/>I mean power is like a state
<$B> <#/>Do you mean Zanzibar is going to be powerless
<$C> <#/>Of course definitely and then already because everything is switched on and off here from mainland
<$A> <#/>No no <#/>It's not that Zanzibar is going to be powerless <#/>It is powerless
<$B> <#/>No I don't think if now Zanzibar is powerless 
<$A> <#/>It is powerless 
<$B> <#/>On what grounds
<$A> <#/>It will be much more powerless 
<$B> <#/>On what grounds is it powerless
<$A> <#/>What grounds
<$B> <#/>Yeah
<$A> <#/>You have just cited an example saying that in two years two years ago the Zanzibar government decided to join the OIC <#/>Then I remember our beloved President 
<$B> <#/>Yes but that was contrary to the constitution
<$A> <#/>No it was not contrary to the constitution
<$B> <#/>It was
<$A> <#/>It was not
<$B> <#/>Do you have any evidence
<$A> <#/>Yeah
<$C> <#/>As a lawyer
<$A> <#/>No no no not as a lawyer because what I <-_>what I<-/> <./>sh <-_>what I<-/>
<$B> <#/>Just from common sense
<$A> <#/>What I want to tell you that Zanzibar's taking membership of the OIC and then it was admitted as a member in the OIC but the condition in OIC is that once you become a member <-_>once you become a member<-/> you have to be let us let me put it in the other way that only a country or a state is allowed to be a member in that organisation Organisation of Islamic state <#/>Therefore Zanzibar is not a state in the real sense because when delegation of Zanzibar go to the meeting in the OIC OK in front of them they are supposed to have their flag <#/>Which flag would they put <#/>No no which flag
<$B> <#/>It's not important
<$A> <#/>It is important <#/>Which flag will they put
<$B> <#/>To have flags is not important
<$A> <#/>No it is important
<$B> <#/>Okay if that uh
<$A> <#/>Flag is like a shirt and <-_trouser>-+_trousers> <#/>When you are going somewhere without a trouser  and shirts it's shameful
<$B> <#/>But you can wear something else
<$A> <#/>Why
<$B> <#/>You can wear a long uh
<$A> <#/>grasses or what
<$B> <#/>garment not grasses
<$A> <#/>No no <#/>what I mean is you have to have something to cover your body that is we have to have our identity <#/>Our identity is a flag
<$B> <#/>Only a flag
<$A> <#/>No that's only one part one thing there are so many things which we are crying for and we can't of <./>c <-_>we can't<-/> of course discuss all of them 
<$B> <#/>and uh
<$A> <#/>some of them are very sensitive
<$B> <#/>Okay
<$A> <#/>I think if we <-_>if we<-/> <-_>if we<-/> <-_>if we<-/> mention them here we might find ourselves
<$B> <#/>Okay <#/>Am I to infer from your explanation that uh Zanzibar is becoming or has become powerless because of the <-_>of the<-/> union
<$A> <#/>Because of the not because of the <-_>because of<-/> the union because the way the union is taken to be <#/>Maybe let me <-_>let me<-/> tell you one thing
<$B> <#/>Can you put it in both <O/> terms
<$A> <#/>Yeah <#/>In nineteen sixty-four we had the so-called union between Zanzibar and Tanganyika
<$B> <#/>The so-called 
<$A> <#/>The so-called I call it the so-called <-_>the so-called<-/> because it is not as <./>e exactly the union 
<$B> <#/>I hope you will give us more explanation on that later on
<$A> <#/>Therefore we <-/>we <-/>we had the so-called union between Zanzibar and Tanganyika <#/>Therefore in that union we had the article of union okay <#/>Therefore we had the article of union which stipulates I mean the grounds the <-/>the kind of the union to be and some other things <#/>Therefore we the article of the union is about fourteen <-_section><+_sections> I think <#/>Fourteen articles we call them articles <#/>We have article one up to article four <#/>it's definition and some other they define concept and some other things but article five that is the foundation 
<$C> <#/>Of the union
<$A> <#/>The foundation of the union because it says how the union is going to be <#/>It <-_mention><+_mentions> who will be the first President of the union it say who will be the second President of the second the <./>s the first vice-president of the union and some other things <#/>And then they also mention in that article five the what they are calling the lists of the things which will be termed as union matters <#/>There were eleven <#/>Okay <#/>And then they put also 
<$B> <#/>Procedure
<$A> <#/>They didn't put procedure for amendment but what you find now is that in that <-_>in that<-/> article is they did say that the Zanzibar President will be the vice-president and will be the I mean the <-_>will be<-/> <-_>will be<-/> the vice-president of the Tanzania President <#/>That is in the act
<$B> <#/>That is in the act
<$A> <#/>United Republic of Tanzania In the act <-_>in the act<-/> of union they did say that <#/>But what we are <./>say <-_>what we are<-/> seeing now they have decided to strike that article from that act
<$B> <#/>Is that you see the constitution
<$A> <#/>No no no wait
<$B> <#/>Is by convention
<$A> <#/>No wait
<$B> <#/>Both parties they both parties agreed if they are the ones who
<$A> <#/>There are <-_>there are<-/> two things which you <./>ha <-/>you <-/>you <-/>you might <./>s you <-/>you have to know You are not arguing here like sociologists <#/>We are <-_>we are<-/> arguing in <-/>in <-/>in   legal point of view <#/>Therefore in Tanzania what I want to say is we have two <-_kind><+_kinds> of constitution </I>
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<I> <$C> <#/>And what was done
<$A> <#/>Therefore look at the second schedule before discussing what was done <#/>The second schedule reads Matters the alteration of which requires the concurrence of two thirds of members of parliament hailing from Mainland Tanzania and two thirds of members of parliament from Tanzania Zanzibar <#/>The first matter is contingents of the United Republic of Tanzania <#/>It seems to be decided by two thirds of members of Zanzibar and Mainland <#/>The contingents of the office of the United Republic of Tanzania the executive authority of the United Republic the contingents of the parliament of the United Republic of Tanzania the executive authority of the Zanzibar government <#/>Therefore the High Court of Zanzibar the <?/>least of the Union matters <#/>Therefore here I want to discuss two things <#/>First one is the contingents <#/>I mean the executive authority of the government of Zanzibar
<$C> <#/>Do you mind help us to put up these things
<$A> <#/>The executive authority of the government of Zanzibar <#/>Therefore when you are talking of the executive authority <#/>I think you have had your PS first year and second year therefore you understand what I mean <#/>Therefore the President of Zanzibar is the chief is the executive in Zanzibar <#/>Okay <#/>Therefore in actual union he is supposed to be by law the vice-president of Tanzania
<$B> <#/>Okay I agree uh with what you have said on  legal point of view
<$A> <#/>Oh legal point of view <#/>That's what I said <#/>Wait I haven't finished
<$B> <#/>Okay all right
<$A> <#/>Therefore what they have done they have taken the Zanzibar president not to be vice-president but only to be a member in the cabinet <#/>Not legal <#/>That is contrary to the article of the union and then the second point I want to clarify is this Those matters which were to be when they want to be altered  two thirds of members of parliament hailing from Mainland Tanzania and two thirds of <-_member><+_members> of parliament hailing from Zanzibar<O/> the least of the union matters <#/>You know the least of the union matters they  were eleven they were enumerated in this constitution <#/>Here they are constitution external affairs defence security police emergency power citizen <#/>If you reach up to the eleven that is uh they were put in the Act of Union but from twelve up to twenty-one these were done not in accordance with the Act of the Union not in accordance to the constitution <#/>Now they are twenty-one here in the list but now they are twenty-two <#/>They say you know we have just come to the introduction of the multiparty system and they say now that now multiparty is inefficient one political party is inefficient but this has been done with not enough policy to the constitution not in accordance to the Act of the Union because in the parliament what we have seen is they have just passed the bill and I think one hundred and sixty-four of the members of parliament they  accepted it only five objected it <#/>They took it generally while they were supposed to take Zanzibar members what they are saying and Tanzania members what they are saying Tanganyika members what they are syaing <#/>Therefore if they get two third of members of parliament hailing from Zanzibar they do <-/>they have they had to support it <#/>Then if they do that can become a bill and then it can be tabled before the President to assert it <#/>But what they did is not that <#/>Therefore the procedures were not followed <#/>Therefore what <-/>what I say is the <-/> <-/>the I mean the passing of the Bill of Parliament the eleventh amendment of the constitution was illegal and null and void
<$B> <#/>I agree basically to what you have said but uh do you think the parliamentarians and the speaker were uh fool enough to pass the Bill which is unconstitutional
<$A> <#/>That is obvious because what <-/>what I want to say
<$B> <#/>Oh Do you you mean to say they are laymen <#/>They don't understand the constitution
<$A> <#/>The MPs from Zanzibar are laymen
<$B> <#/>So so
<$A> <#/>In believing they are taking advantage out of it
<$B> <#/>Okay okay <#/>Do you want to mean  that the Zanzibar parliamentarians are to blame
<$A> <#/>Of course they are to blame <#/>They were supposed to go by the procedures I think <#/>What I know is that the speaker the speaker of parliament knows the procedure but what he wanted to do was just to pass the bill because he knew if he said maybe you Zanzibarians have to decide it on your own and you mainlanders have to decide it on your own it couldn't be passed <#/>Therefore he took advantage of Zanzibar members of parliament to be ignorant or
<$B> <#/>Okay <#/>What do you think of the reason that uh Mr Puis Msekwa gave uh <#/>One of the most important <-_reason><+_reasons> that he gave is that under the new political system of multi-partyism there is uh the situation is there is a possibility of having one party winning in Zanzibar and another party in the mainland <#/>And therefore there is a need to have another person uh who is not the President of Zanzibar being the vice-president <#/>What do you think of that reason
<$A> <#/>That is contrary to the Act of the Union <#/>The Act of the Union <-_say><+_says> that the Zanzibar president should be one another vice-president is in the mainland
<$B> <#/>Okay okay <#/>The Act of the Union was made by the <-/>the Tanzanians or the Tanganyikans and Zanzibaris and we can <-_>we can>/> change it as we always argued Tanzanians any concerned body if parliamentarians or the lawyers 
<$A> <#/>But the body still didn't consult us
<$B> <#/>No they have not changed
<$A> <#/>No they have already <#/>We are waiting for Mwinyi to assent 
<$C> <#/>Okay let us stop the discussion which is
<$B> <#/>and he has not done it
<$C> <#/>endless <#/>So now let us have a cup of tea so as to refresh your minds and later on we'll continue with the discussion
<$B> <#/>And we hope to get
<$A> <#/>Because even Msekwa when he was interrogated by the <-_>by the<-/> Hafidh Ali he say that the list is only six
<$B> <#/>He was telling lies
<$A> <#/>Yah but the list is eight <#/>It's not six and I don't think that the speaker doesn't know this <#/>He knows but maybe he excluded when he said six <#/>I think he excluded the list of the Union and the executive authority of the government of Zanzibar and then he remained with six <#/>That's what he did <#/>And then what I wanted to tell you is that Hafidh Ali knows the football rules
<$B> <#/>Seventeen rules okay
<$A> <#/>Seventeen rules of football of the game <#/>He doesn't know a law <#/>Therefore
<$B> <#/>He's  layman
<$A> <#/>He's  layman of course like <-/>like those who <-_puts><+_put> him in the place <#/>They are laymen too
<$B> <#/>Okay now what do you think should be done <#/>Are there any prospects <#/>It seems that most of the Zanzibaris 
<$A> <#/>Yeah You know 
<$B> <#/>have been very much annoyed by these things <#/>Now do you see any possibilty of uh <-/>of that bill not to be passed the speaker
<$A> <#/>The possibility is you know because the procedure is that
<$B> <#/>Okay <#/>The only possibility to the best of my knowledge is uh that the President Ali Hassan Mwinyi to pass it the speaker to sign but if is there any other possibility
<$A> <#/>Yeah because the <-/>the President may not assent the bill and then he may send back the bill to the Parliament with reasons why he has not
<$B> <#/>Is it likely to happen <#/>What do you think will President Ali Hassan Mwinyi do
<$A> <#/>I think President Ali Hassan Mwinyi now is in under <#/>He <-/>he <-/>he has got two things to decide or two masters <#/>One is the Zanzibaris or Zanzibar president <#/>He is under pressure that he knows the Zanzibaris are against
<$B> <#/>that bill
<$A> <#/>that bill <#/>At the same time he <-_know><+_knows> that mainlanders are pro they are for <-/>for the bill <#/>Therefore I don't know what he will decide then but in twenty-one days of course he has to and I think twenty-one days they  are to elapse now <#/>Therefore he has to decide whether to assent it or not <#/>If he <-_>if he<-/> <-_assent><+_assents> it then the Zanzibar president will be no longer the vice-president <#/>That would mean Zanzibar executive is not <-_>is not<-/> included in the union matters <#/>Therefore the point which you asked me when they said that there can be with the introduction of multiparty system there can be a possibility of having a Zanzibar president hailing from Chadema and at the same time having the Tanzanian president hailing from CCM that is possible but saying that you we <-/>we have to change the Act of the Union or the constitution because of that that is not it can't hold water because you have <-_>you have<-/> minimised the status of the Zanzibar president from being vice-president to being  member of cabinet
<$B> <#/>Yes but then there is someone else from Zanzibar
<$A> <#/>Wait <#/>In the cabinet of course maybe the cabinet will be controlled by CCM too and then let us say the Zanzibar president <-_come><+_comes> from Chadema will he <-_>will he<-/> accept the policy of the cabinet <#/>Therefore if you are <?/>primed for the contradiction you can't I mean <-_>you can't<-/> avoid it even in the cabinet the contradiction will be there because the Zanzibar president may say that this I don't want this to be <-_>to be<-/> implemented in Zanzibar because this is against my policy <#/>I follow CUF policy or Chadema policy <#/>Therefore these are CCM policy which I don't <-_>I don't<-/> believe in them <#/>Therefore I don't want them to be implemented in Zanzibar <#/>Therefore if you are <-_>if you are<-/> <?/>frightened of I mean of contradiction the <-_contradiction><+_contradictions> are still there <#/>Therefore what I think should be done We have to get rid of these two <-_system><+_systems> I mean government <-_system><+_systems> because if we are still having two governnment <-_system><+_systems> the contradiction will be there because the question is not the structure of the Union <#/>I mean the problem is not the structure of the Union <#/>The structure of the Union is two <-_government><+_governments> <#/>Zanzibaris they  want two governments <#/>Mainlanders they  don't want two governments <#/>They are for one government <#/>They are for three <-_government><+_governments> <#/>Zanzibaris are against one government <#/>They are against three government <#/>I mean the CCM but they are for two governments they want two governments <#/>Therefore Zanzibar wants two governments <#/>When I say Zanzíbar it doesn't mean Zanzibaris I mean the executive they want two governments <#/>Mainlanders they  want three governments <#/>They don't want two governments <#/>Therefore there is the contradiction <#/>Therefore what <-/>what I say the issue is not two governments because if the issue is two <-_government><+_governments> we have had the Union for thirty years <#/>Nineteen sixty-one there was a Tanganyika government <#/>The Tanganyika government is now incorporated in the Union government <#/>Therefore we have the Zanzibar government and we have the Union government <#/>We have two governments okay <#/>We have one government in two Tanzania the United Republic of Tanzania and Tanganyika government is incorporated in it and then on the other hand we have Zanzibar government <#/>Therefore if the issue is two <-_government><+_governments> then you are Zanzibaris aren't you
<$B>&<$C> <#/>Yes
<$A> <#/>Okay for thirty years we have been having  Zanzibar government <#/>For thirty years Mainlanders have not been having  a Tanganyika government <#/>Therefore let us now change the system <#/>Let us say now it is the party it is high time that Zanzibar should dissolve Zanzibar government should be dissolved yeah
<$A> <#/>It should be incorporated in the Union government and then we have Tanganyika government and then we should have two <-_government><+_governments> Tanganyika government Tanzania government <#/>If the issue is two <-_government><+_governments> then it will be all right because mainlanders will be satisfied <#/>They will <-_>they will<-/> have <-_>they will have<-/> their own government but you are you <-_>are you<-/> prepared
<$B> <#/>Well
<$A> <#/>Are you prepared to see Zanzibar government being incorporated in Tanzania Union
<$B> <#/>Well yes and no uh <#/>Basically because uh historically uh it was uh agreed or it was uh seen uh a good thing that Zanzibar government should be there and Tanganyika government should be dissolved uh precisely because of the smallness of the Zanzibar government and because of the all political and uh political situation of Zanzibar because in Zanzibar there was a revolution there so there was a fear that ih if the Zanzibar government is going to be  dissolved and be uh incorporated in the Union government the <-/>the status of Zanzibar will disappear
<$A> <#/>Where is the status of Zanzibar now
<$B> <#/>The Zanzibar government is still there whether you want or not though only theoretically it is there though theoretical just as a shadow a shadow government but it is there
</I>

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<I> <$A> <#/>Yeah <#/>So you'd want us to start our discussion uh uh Mr Beebwa with uh how it should be made that we have uh a syllabus A level syllabus uh containing things that should be taught throughout the year and then uh you want the assessment to be done I mean the tests to be set in such a way that they can offer a representative sample of what has been taught throughout the year I mean the course
<$B> <#/>Yeah that's good
<$A> <#/>But how is your experience regarding such kind of a thing <#/>How do you think questions or uh test items should be made so that they can be a sample of what has actually been covered throughout the course
<$B> <#/>Yeah <#/>I asked this because it seems that to not encourage the student to continue with his study when sometimes fail because they cover much things in the whole course but the final they they're just answering four or five question which is at the end the exam
<$X> <#/>Oh yes
<$B> <#/>Then the student he occupy a lot of time much time to study many things then sometimes he can be panic for two <-_question><+_questions> <#/>It seem that this two question  it destroy all much  which he have already learned from the beginning 
<$A> <#/>I see 
<$B> <#/>Then even the ministry it assess him  that he is failed or sometimes he is not qualified to be a student or is not qualified in this subject 
<$A> <#/>I see
<$B> <#/>but uh I think that it is not a fair system because it reminds  a lot of things which you have read
<$A> <#/>Sure <#/>That's quite true because well when uh a test is constructed uh should the person who is constructing the test items should take it into consideration that what he offers <#/>I mean what is contained in those test items should actually be a representative sample of what has been covered throughout the course and uh it is in this sense that uh we have a variety of test items <#/>For example we may have essay type question in the same examination <#/>At the same time you may have multiple choice questions and you also have matching items <#/>Okay <#/>All these offer a variety of chances to be I mean to cover as broader the material as possible  so that you may not be biased because once you've set say three question essay type questions and actually it is one of the limitations of <-/>of uh essay type questions that they are only restricted to a very small coverage you see of materials covered and generally when the examiner wants to make very crucial decisions about a candidate who is being examined tested he should not rely entirely on uh essay type questions because they are not enough to cover the broader area that might have been covered throughout the <-/>the course <#/>So this is very bad and that's why you see them uh Form Four examinations uh uh they contain a lot of a variety of types I mean a variety of uh items that are structured differently like I have mentioned to you essay type multiple choice uh matching items and you know matching items can cover a very broader uh area isn't it  
<$B> <#/>yes
<$A> <#/>But with A level actually I find it quite unfair to have such a you know to rely entirely on uh essay type questions it's quite unfair <#/>But how do you do your structure <#/>I mean what how do you uh do your examinations on structure <-/>structure I mean paper one <#/>How do you <-_>how do you<-/> go about doing it uh <#/>You also you are also given essays <#/>it's quite you can get the essays
<$B> <#/>Of course I'm not familiar because I'm
<$A> <#/>yeah yeah 
<$B> <#/>So
<$A> <#/>But with structure I think it doesn't have any problem because you are getting you are provided with a sample you know a variety of questions on which you can uh well try to solve just like mathematics of course 
<$B> <#/>yes
<$A> <#/>to provide the answers you see but uh with paper two it's some kind of a problem
<$B> <#/>of course
<$A> <#/>So what are your suggestions for example regarding such a situation
<$B> <#/>yeah my suggestion is because the student he or she will remain in the course let's say one or two years <#/>Then they are taking a continuous assessment <#/>I think it is a good way to <-/>to assess the student through a continuous assessment <#/>So you can know him or her when he is doing his continuous assessment then the teacher should be strict for that assessment because the final examination myself I saw that it's
<$A> <#/>not so reliable 
<$B> <#/>not so reliable because sometimes as a human being the time of a examination maybe you can you can panic for that time <#/>Then you if you panic for two or one hour you <-_destruct><+_destroy> everything for your two years or one years 
<$B> <#/>yeah it's true
<$B> <#/>I think the better way I think so is to have a continuous assessment then it needs to be kept very well <#/>Then it can be considered
<$B> <#/>to the end of the course 
<$A> <#/>That's a very good idea <#/>It's a very welcome idea in the sense that once you test someone and I uh mean you give him a final test a final exam uh without having his or her continuous report assessment <#/>I mean assessment report you never know exactly what has probably led him into passing excellently or into failing disastrously because remember a person doing a test is subjected into  under some kind of abnormal situation where it's quite uh un un unlike when a person is doing his or her just normal tests class tests <#/>There we expect a student to be a bit more confident than when he's or she is doing his final exam you see uh <#/>I know the final exam given the situation that this holds quite a lot and people expect that the decisions that are going to <./>ma <-/>to be made out of such an exam will be very binding <#/>There is no way you can go and complain say well I did this and this and I wonder I have failed <#/>There is no such a chance <#/>So your idea that uh a continuous assessment should be taken very much into consideration is quite uh welcome and it's a good idea <#/>But it has been discovered that uh the National Examination Council for example NECTA does not uh care much about as I as far as my views are concerned does not take care of students' continuous assessment and if it does quite after finding that those there will be a need such a need because otherwise if that was the case we could have had many people maintaining their positions even after uh doing their final examinations <#/>Because you find that relying on such I mean on that method of just depending I mean making decisions on uh basing on national examinations have proved that some students can pass excellently while they used to perform poorly even in the class <#/>This is wonder <#/>So this brings some kind of concern that maybe there is cheating something like that or leakage of examinations something like that or maybe due to the fact that one can raise up very comfortable maybe he has or she has read something uh the topic which contains some of the questions uh overnight <#/>Yeah <#/>It could enable him pass even with very minimal efforts <#/>You see then you find that some people are doing it really serious work from the very beginning but since it is not easy to have all questions uh I mean all topics covered to appear in the same examination then it becomes too difficult for a student a candidate to make the right choice you see <#/>So that is quite a good point yeah <#/>So you are maybe you have something else to to say
<$B> <#/>Actually the final examination is something that is okay but uh when you see for example the final examination there are a lot of <-_student><+_students> who are in mind sometimes not performed very well at the final examination then that is not to regard  that it they were not okay in their development in studies but it occurred to the final examination that it can occur maybe some people at the final <./>examtion examination because they know that there is examination to concentrate in some topic and then sometimes it can appear in the national examination so they can do very good while the other who are very quite good from the beginning they didn't found  that the topic in the final examination or they didn't study it very well one topic sometimes there can appear two question from one topic and then in the one who studied for examination he performed very well but the one who is not study  very well but he is quite okay from the beginning up to there he failed <#/>So it occur  that there it's like a golden chance now 
<$A> <#/>yes
<$B> <#/>So when you dump there it's your chance now to get it but if it was not your luck for that day
<$A> <#/>then you fail
<$B> <#/>you fail but the real situation it is appear at school I think if they take you because you passed you have noticed that those who are going to high school or universities are noticed that they are only that they are bright there are a lot who are very bright in mind
<$A> <#/>some who are not so bright sure
<$B> <#/>I think another problem is to take care for continuous assessment 
<$A> <#/>yeah
<$B> <#/>because sometimes the people they can or <-_teacher><+_teachers> they can stay teaching then they know that there is a national examination <#/>They'll not keep or to consider very much as they want this continuous assessment <-/>assessment then if it would go to the administration ministries and then to be regarded and then it can be <O/> even in the school for example our school <#/>When you come in form one before you come here you're supposed to do entrance examination of course <#/>Then when you come here also you make another examination after two or three weeks <#/>Then if you pass you continue you are allowed to continue if not you are chased out <#/>Then in your continuous assessment in one year they can chase you out from the school or you can continue according to your
<$A> <#/>to your passes
<$B> <#/>your passes
<$A> <#/>exactly uh I can take you <#/>I can I mean I can understand what you are saying and uh in even more scholarly terms I could say the examinations that we have that we normally do are <-/>are sometimes considered to be uh sort of an unfair game to scholars who would anticipate to go for further studies because it is also argued that paper pencil tests are meant to test people's ability to work under great pressures other than testing exactly what they know uh <#/>Because if you cannot have if you have no ability to work under pressures uh under time limit under very strict examination regulations you can never expect to go through such kind of an exercise <#/>So it's uh normally argued that there could be a different means <-_>a different means<-/> of evaluating people's knowledge other than relying entirely on paper pencil examinations <#/>Because these it has been found out that may give a wrong picture of what really a person knows and what a person doesn't know you see <#/>Because suppose you have been given five questions uh out of the entire course uh of one year or two years <#/>I don't think those five questions could truly represent exactly what you know and what you have covered throughout and it means that failing to attempt those five questions out of a number of issues you have been discussing throughout the year could not be taken as a true picture of what you are as <-_academical><+_academic> intellectual because if you fail for example doesn't mean you know nothing <#/>Getting F for instance could not exactly mean that you know nothing you are empty-headed <#/>It doesn't imply that way <#/>So even if you get A it doesn't mean you know everything that you have been taught <#/>You see that the <-/>the <-/>the merits of relying uh very much upon paper pencil examinations these are very misleading sometimes so some scholars have thought that there could be a certain mechanism of monitoring students' performance other than simply relying on what on paper pencil examinations <#/>For example a person could be monitored as you are saying through this continuous assessment even weekly assessment to test him on or her on various uh spheres of academics <#/>To test his thinking ability to test everything that could be uh part of his career <#/>Okay <#/>So that at the end of the course uh we find out what has been taking place with this candidate we are trying to uh to well assess uh I think that could offer a very reliable good picture of what is known to a student or what is and what is not known to him other than saying yeah now this is the end of your course you'll be doing your national examinations <#/>And this creates fear in itself <#/>Once you tell a person that you know there is final examination on which all the decisions about you are going to be based </I>