S1B021T
<I> <$E> <#/>On  second of August nineteen ninety Iraq invaded Kuwait and announced the merger of the two countries a few days later <#/>In our first instalment in two we examined the Gulf Crisis and looked at its historical as well as economic perspectives <#/>In this edition we’ll look and examine whether solutions to the Gulf Crisis must come all the way from the United States and other European countries <#/>Aren't Arabs themselves capable of solving their own problems <#/>As well as that we’ll discuss the impact of this crisis on the ordinary man in the street <#/>Taking part in this discussion as members of the panel are Chempondo Alec Humphrey Senior Lecturer Department of Political Science and Public Administration University of Dar es Salaam Karim Isaack Lawyer and Editor of Liberation and Ugandan Digest Robert Rweyemamu a columnist with Business Times and Felix Kaiza Editor of Property Digest <#/>Karim Isaack starts us off as to whether solutions to the Gulf Crisis must come all the way from the United States and other European countries
<$B> <#/>Yes uh you know it is very interesting to note that when Iraq invaded Kuwait <#/>I think you know Iraq did hint to various people that look if this oilfield issue is settled and this question of the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the price of oil is settled and that we owe this ten billion debt is settled we would withdraw <#/>On the basis of that Arafat came out with a ten point plan which was supposed to have been discussed at the Arab summit in Cairo <#/>Now some forces came in and that was never discussed <#/>Instead you know the Arab League at this meeting condemned Iraq <#/>Now there has been a procedure all this time that you never pass any resolution unless there is a consensus <#/>For the first time they use the word majority minority to have in favour eight against and so forth <#/>Right <#/>Now this is against the Constitution of the Arab League <#/>In other words there were forces that were working to prevent the Arabs coming to a solution amongst themselves <#/>Even now too there is this plan there is the Arafat plan there is the Ghaddafi plan Arafat uh uh uh uh uh involves the replacement of uh uh uh Iraqi troops uh uh with UN troops or Arab League troops <#/>Ghaddafi has the same idea <#/>Namely that in the case of Kuwait UN troops occupy it and <-/>and <-/>and <-/>and Arab League uh occupies the uh that the <-/>the uh uh <-/>the troops that occupied Dubai now by US may be removed and Arab League now takes over <#/>In other words this is now the Arab League solution promoted by certain Arab countries including the PLO <#/>But if you read the latest issues of Newsweek America has made it quite clear whether Saddam <-_Husseins><+_Hussein>withdraws or stays in Kuwait they are staying put in the Gulf <#/>And today BBC announced that Baker has addressed the Congress Committee
<$A> <#/>At the time I was in the United States of America myself and uh there had been this Middle East war uh <./>w uh the Arab countries had come together denying oil say to the United States of America because Israel had attacked <./>the there <#/>Now one thing which Henry Kissinger then uh uh <./>S State Department Director or Minister for Foreign Affairs of the United States under President Nixon had said something <#/>He said that uh these Arabs must release the oil with immediate effect otherwise we are coming to take it <#/>And that uh the excuse he made was that uh we cannot accept the economic strangulation from anybody <#/>So this probably means that the United States has had under its sleeves  a concocted plan to be in the Middle East effectively and uh this Iraq-Kuwait situation provides the panacea for the American presence and since it has also been crowned with the dignity of United Nations resolutions to that effect then uh it’s a dignified thing and they are there and if they say they are there to stay uh the United Nations has in a way supported them
<$E> <#/>But uh what surprises me is why have the United why has the United States come out so strong uh against Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait because there was this package that was from the United States and yet another from the United Nations <#/>Did this situation really warrant such harsh repercussions Felix
<$D> <#/>Well I think uh the whole question is uh <-/>is the question of oil That must be the point at issue because uh uh one uh should remember the uh Saudi Oil Minister saying uh we have become an integral part of the oil-market of the US and the return on our investment depends on the health of the market <#/>Now uh there can be no other explanation uh to the present crisis <#/>These people are looking for the oil <#/>They <-/>they want to take care of their interest <./>ir irrespective of whatever happens to the uh common man in the Arab world or in the other parts of the world <#/>I think what uh they are looking for is their economic interest derived from oil
<$E> <#/>To me there seems to be lack of foresight on the part of the international community because if you remember in nineteen seventy-five seventy-five seventy-six seventy-eight uh we had this inflation that was caused by uh OPEC uh raising the prices of oil and uh the United States and all other Paris Club members thought  time was right to begin looking for alternative sources of energy <#/>Now before we've come up with other sources of energy we’ve been caught up in another crisis and it looks like the oil is going to go up and the implications are going to be far and wide in fact as far as uh many other developing countries like Tanzania uh don’t you think that there was this lack of foresight <#/>Maybe if we had uh been keen enough in those days to look for alternative sources of energy this crisis maybe wouldn’t have meant so much for most of us Rweyemamu
<$C> <#/>I agree with you <#/>There is a problem which we have to face uh but uh I don’t know uh what uh poor people like ourselves can do about it <#/>We <-/>we are bound to be victims of the circumstances and uh as it is uh uh I don’t know what foresight could have helped because as far as our interests are concerned we have no <-/>no alternative the uh we have no other source of oil and uh uh really we have to bear the <-/>the consequences <#/>So <./>rea really I cannot imagine what could be a way out <-/excepti> uh uh uh uh a forced rationing of oil and uh as the government has said a <-/stricty> uh uh uh care in the use of oil <#/>Actually the truth is as far as uh the main players are concerned in the <./>oi uh uh affair they are not worried about the small people they are not worried about our interest they are worried about their own interest <#/>The big powers the including the United Nations Security Council they are not worried about our interests <#/>So really we have only uh <-/>only uh our <-/>our own uh fate to control nobody else can help us in this situation
<$E> <#/>Yeah I’m trying to have a vision here uh as we enter the twenty-first century <#/>What kind of people are we going to enter in that century with AIDS in our midst <#/>Air fares are going to rise definitely <#/>We have this debt crisis to grapple with and then we have uh events in Eastern Europe which might rob us of the aid that we were used uh to getting from the Western countries or developed countries <#/>With this crisis going on and we don’t even know when it’s going to be over chances are we are going to be more in economic quagmires than anything else Karim
<$B> <#/>Yes I think it is a challenge to man and woman not only in Tanzania but in all the areas where people are poor <#/>It is a challenge to conquer the forces of nature <#/>It is a challenge to conquer uh the problems of society <#/>Now take for instance Tanzania <#/>Now we have coal and we have got a burning coal and uh you know it requires of course a certain degree of investment in the coal but I’m quite sure that if it's set about seriously about it  we could be able to develop our coal industry and then uh not completely destroy our impact on uh the oil prices but we’ll be able to soften part of the impact <#/>And as far as the West is concerned and it's not so much what did you say lack of foresight but they realise look man if we are going to invest in atomic energy if we are going to be <-/>i <-/>i you know in <-/>in nuclear energy that cost billions and billions <#/>Now why do that when we got uh you know uh uh uh uh Saudi Arabia giving us oil at eighteen dollars a barrel which is very cheap because if we invest so many billions in nuclear look what we get in returns <#/>It'll take years <#/>So that’s one of the reasons why they chose the cheaper option although they went for the nuclear they haven’t gone as much because they think in terms of cash <#/>So I’m quite sure just like I mean there are countries like you know or I talk about Eastern Europe or even Russia they were backward thirty years ago but because of the creativity because of political organisation because of the unity they were able to pull themselves up <#/>And I’m quite sure that with correct ideas correct political orientation we in Africa we in Tanzania also must and we will pull uh ourselves up from these problems <#/>All we require is really you know first we must have knowledge extensive knowledge of the world around us extensive knowledge of what is taking place uh in our own environment and once that is transmitted to people I’m quite sure the people are going to rise and <-/>and <-/>and uh solve these problems
<$E> <#/>Mr Chemponda Alec
<$A> <#/>Yes uh there is also another aspect I think of your question Edda Sanga and that is uh that as we uh head on toward the twenty-first century uh what is needed I think we need to set our priorities correctly uh because uh when you look at one other country uh which is Japan and uh I lived in Japan nineteen eighty four eighty five on my sabbatical leave from the <-_>from the<-/> University Dar es Salaam <#/>I saw a very interesting thing <#/>The Japanese do not have much of raw materials at all natural resources <#/>they don’t have much of them at all uh and yet they have uh managed to come out to become a power to be reckoned with uh <#/>We need to <-/>to look at the perspectives of what make Japan what made Japan <-/>Japan and to see why can’t we also make ourselves
<$E> <#/>Maybe the difference between Japan and us is that they’ve got the technology which we don’t have
<$A> <#/>Yes that’s why I said that uh what we need is the tactics you know to tackle things and to set the priorities properly
<$E> <#/>Karim you want to come in
<$B> <#/>Yes just come in to say that in 1930 in the thirties Japan also did not have the technology but the Japanese went they told the <slang/>Japs whenever you go to Britain don’t go as tourists go and get as much information as possible about everything <#/>Every Japanese went there as a crusader to get knowledge
<$A> <#/>And then they were told to come back home and when they came back home you know this is <./>w something which I noticed when they came back home they were actually placed properly that if you were an engineer you were given an engineering job if you were if you had this particular expertise you were given the proper possible place where your expertise was being utilised properly uh <#/>Once you begin to twist people that someone educated in a certain field you put him in another field altogether you confuse them it becomes a problem in their <./>crea creative talents and therefore the <./>curren the country becomes retarded a little bit because of misplacement of <./>w the native talents
<$E> <#/>Rweyemamu
<$C> <#/>Miss Chairperson this is where we have got to take very serious view of our problems <#/>Our problems are not insoluble they can be solved <#/>Dynamic action is required especially in the field of manpower especially in the field of uh talent promoting talented people to use their uh <./>ta talents
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S1B022T
<I> <$F> <#/>Food for the Future <#/>But first we must know what is food Dr Bitanye
<$A> <#/>I think many people would easily answer this question as anything that one eats in order to nourish his body <#/>But one question arises Do you always get nourishment from what we eat or do we always eat what is nourishing uh <#/>From this point of view I think we you all know that food uh can be divided into about four major groups <#/>There are those foods which give us energy and these include things like starch foods cassava maize uh wheat and the like <#/>And also foods like meat or fat meat which also gives you energy <#/>There are also some types of food that will give you protection from diseases and these foods include uh foods like uh fruits citrus fruits and the like and also green vegetables that are said to be good sources of uh vitamins <#/>There are other foods which as we all know are the basic building blocks of our bodies that is proteins <#/>These proteins are essentially the ones which make us grow and repair our bodies <#/>From this same point of view we have found that the world at large is having  a surplus of food In fact the statistics that we have indicate that we have ten per cent more food than is required in by the population today <#/>But the problem is the distribution <#/>The distribution of food in <-/>in the world even within the same country is not even <#/>As it has been pointed earlier in the discussion those people living in the rural areas are terribly undernourished <#/>And some of them are in the danger of dying from hunger <#/>From other statistics it is also indicative that generally uh the world consumes on the average uh food that gives them two hundred and thirty sorry two thousand three hundred calories per person per day of food that give them energy and uh up on the average about sixty-two grams of food that builds their bodies <#/>We in Tanzania are slightly above the average <#/>We have in fact uh two hundred two thousand eight hundred calories per person per day and sixty-five grams per person per day for protein <#/>This indicates that Tanzanians are generally above average in uh nutrition <#/>But of course generally the distribution of food is not even <#/>So one could find that people living in rural areas or in any other areas that are <-/>are poorly supplied with food are terribly undernourished <#/>Some of them may be suffering from of hunger while in other parts of the country other people may be having  too much to eat <#/>So here you have the problem of undernourishment and of overnourishment <#/>But this is the question that we will be discussed later when we come to look at the major constraints to food production and food uh availability <#/>I should probably end here and leave my colleagues to continue the discussion before I come in again
<$F> <#/>Thank you very much Lothar Bitanye uh for warming up the panel and uh as I can see here uh the faces are shining and showing some sort of a <#/>they have some comments to give uh concerning this first question what is food Uh Mr Manento
<$B> <#/>Yeah Thank you Mr Chairman as Dr Bitanye is clearly uh talking about the <-/>the <-/>the <-/>the definition of food I'd rather to like to add that uh uh food is not only uh that one to fill the stomach but food should contain all essential ingredients in order that it uh may balance the uh the body requirements <#/>Therefore it's is  important to note that food should be of should have nutritional balance uh as you can see that uh in some parts of the country you find people suffering from malnutrition while they're surrounded by abundant food uh materials <#/>Therefore it is important to uh note that food should uh be utilized at the level uh which allows the nutritional balance Mr Chairman
<$F> <#/>Yeah <#/>Are there any comments uh concerning the first question before we move on to our second stage of the discussion uh Muheto
<$C> <#/>Yeah I would like to agree with the Prof Bitanye's Dr Bitanye's definition of food and the elaboration made by my colleague Mr Maneto but I should like to add uh on the types of foods which uh conventionally they are not uh thought about whenever people think of sources of food <#/>Uh In the Tanzanian context I should like to remind uh Tanzanians that the <-/>the various sources of food including include those which are available in the forests uh in the oceans and uh uh in the ocean you would have two types of foods <#/>There are animal foods and plant uh plant foods <#/>Uh I should like to expound on what is available in the forest <#/>There are plant foods like uh mushrooms uh roots leaves and even fruits uh and also when you look at what the forest contains there are many <-/>many small animals which uh also would contribute much on the availability of food in Tanzania <#/>Uh we also have a whole a range of insects which uh are a good source of protein and when you go to the ocean environment you have all sorts of marine organisms the crabs uh <O/> uh oysters squids and what have you <#/>So I should like to expound on this definition of food so that many Tanzanians should not be limited by what is normally obtained on the farm but they should also extend their knowledge about the availability of food in the forests and uh oceans <#/>Thank you Mr Chairman
<$F> <#/>Uh Mr Muheto you have touched on our second phase of the discussion but before I move on to that uh maybe someone has got a comment on this one <#/>Not at all okay <#/>So I'm just talking of one <#/>We're talking of food uh it means the opposite of which is hunger <#/>Now let us look how is hunger related to the quality of environment and uh Muheto you are conversant on this I think since you you're
<$C> <#/>Uh Yes I am but I should like to get some comments from uh other discussants if they have something more detailed to tell
<$F> <#/>Yeah Kajumula
<$D> <#/>Yeah Thank you Mr Chairman <#/>Maybe a point which relates to this is the fact that everybody needs food from the definitions we have got and the common components of food but this food has to be produced or it has be tapped from different sources <#/>And the major source being the land <#/>It is the land which is now creating world-wide worries because of the way it is management managed in producing food <#/>I think this is a very important area which has caused concern to every government to see if it's possible to sustain food production at the rate the land is being destroyed or at the rate the land is being misused
<$F> <#/>Yes Now sometimes
<$A> <#/>Yes Mr Chairman I would also like to chip in
<$F> <#/>Yes
<$A> <#/>what my colleague has just said that uh really uh the main constraints that uh have uh confronted many developing countries in particular is the way we have been managing our environment uh <#/>Our expert will probably expand more on this but uh you'll find that uh whenever food production is considered the environment is not uh at the same time considered <#/>Some people would just clear the land plant whatever they can plant and then use as many chemicals as they wish to <-/>to use uh things like herbicides or even insecticides even in fact fertilisers can be quite hazardous to the to the land that produces the food if we are not very careful <#/>Of course my colleague has <./>t talked about the land uh but of course the sea as well <#/>There is the problem of uh sea pollution which invariably of course uh uh destroys the marine life <#/>There's also the pollution of fresh water rivers and lakes which does the same thing today to the marine uh to the water uh life and the like <#/>Of course uh the of question of clearing the forest as well has something to do with it but as I said I'm not the expert on this I'm sure my colleague uh Mr Muheto uh will be able to give us more details
<$F> <#/>Yeah the burden has fallen to Mr Muheto but before he chips in but uh Mr Mbonde
<$E> <#/>Both my colleagues have been touching this element but perhaps I'll come back a little bit on the crucial question which uh which Mr Chairman you asked in which you said 'what is hunger' <#/>Sometimes it is difficult because this is a psychological feeling or <./>physio feeling which someone experiences due to not having adequate uh food within his body system but the <-/>the crucial part perhaps which we should draw back and try to consider uh why this hunger comes about and uh I think as my colleagues have been touching about the pointed areas where uh the sources of food can be grown or can be obtained <#/>Now the crucial part here we're we are concerned which in one way or another contributes to this uh shortage of food and ultimately hunger is of course as it has been explained to be the problem of the environment <#/>This means that we are constraining the environment due to uh either overuse or improper use of the land to sustain various <./>whi I mean various which I mean vegetative growth or any more I mean uh growth within that area and uh these constraints of course <-_is><+_are> attributed due to various factors which some of them are deliberately and some of <-_>some of<-/> them are I mean uh undeliberately due to other constraints which we are having  <#/>Since as it has been pointed out that uh in some of our countries there is uh <./>sh I mean a shortage of food though in general terms there is a <-_>there is a<-/> ten per cent surplus but the distribution element has been one of <-/>of the <-_problem><+_problems> <#/>Now this one in those areas where the food is not evenly distributed people try to find other means of trying to produce it and unfortunately because these areas are in the rural parts where development or technology mean facilities are not available to improve the agricultural or livestock <./>husb husbandry they go into practices which does not sustain though in the >´<-_>in the<-/> short term they could get benefits from these areas but in the long term they are uh I mean affecting the land adversely to support any future for supplies <#/>Perhaps that is all I would comment for the time being
<$F> <#/>Uh thank you very much <ea/>Ndugu Mbonde and I would like to quote uh a sentence from the World FAO Journal uh for the Food for the Future which says Environment concerns came to the forefront of international attention at the United Nations Conference on the Human Environment in Stockholm in nineteen seventy-two which led to the establishment of the United Nations Environment Programme UNEP <#/>Later the same year FAO published its first preliminary backgrounds of the state of natural resources and the human environment for food and agriculture in nineteen seventy-seven <#/>So this shows actually uh how important environment is uh to the uh <-_>to the<-/> production of food uh <#/>Let's go back to Muheto
<$C> <#/>Uh thank you Mr Chairman Uh before I dwell on this problem of uh uh environmental degradation I should like first to link it up with the <-/>the problem of population <#/>As we know uh population is increasing uh in particular in many developing countries if not all uh <#/>In the case of Tanzania we all know that at the time of independence we were around nine million people but now we have increased up to around twenty-two point five million people and this is an increase which is still uh uh accommodated in the same area uh <#/>There are some issues which uh I would like to expound also related to environmental <./>degrada degradation particularly in urban areas <#/>We know that there is a quite a lot of urban rural urban migration and it is estimated by FAO that uh at the turn of the century about forty per cent of the rural population will be in urban areas <#/>So this calls for uh very careful planning of resource use both in rural areas and in urban areas <#/>Now before I go to the constraints which are environmentally oriented and which uh have a negative contribution to sustainable food production in <-/>in <-/>in our country in particularly I should like to dwell on the <-/>the reason as to why people find themselves to say for example uh adopting bad methods of cultivation
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<&/>panel discussion on Food for the FutureS1B023T
<I> <$A> <#/>Hello and welcome to the programme <#/>This week in this edition we revisit the University of Dar es Salaam where on twenty-fifth of August nineteen ninety the Prime Minister and First Vice-President <ea/>Ndugu Sinei Warioba held discussions with the University of Dar es Salaam Academic Staff Assembly
<$B> <#/>My name is Alec Chemponda Political Science <#/>Mine is not a question but uh a sort of a proposal following your discussion recently with the uh <ea_>Jumuiya ya Wazazi<ea/> uh concerning what to do with the <-/>the children who finish Standard seven <#/>In nineteen from nineteen seventy-six nineteen seventy-eight I was a field supervisor of a political science research uh on evaluation of Norwegian aided projects in Tanzania <#/>And during that time I was able to meet a lot of people around the country and one of the things they discussed was this gap between Standard seven and Form one and what to do with the <-/>the children after they finish Standard seven and especially since most of them especially girls are still young for anything <#/>So parents were very much concerned and since you express this same concern I thought maybe I could bring this proposal which I was very shy of presenting before and I'm only  presenting it today <#/>My suggestion is that we should start uh Standard eight with uh almost immediate effect or it should be started within two years from now <#/>This means that uh the Parliament will have to make a parliamentary act Act of Parliament ah which should uh make this particular change and the Ministry of Education should uh find uh the logistics and the <./>mec the <-/>the <-/>the mechanics for bringing this about <#/>Now the introduction of Standard eight would operate like this in my opinion that uh those students uh who are not selected to go for Form one from Standard seven should be allowed to continue at the same school into Standard eight and in the year of standard eight they should be allowed to do the Standard seven exam with the <-/>the next uh Standard sevens also <#/>And the selection to Form one should be taken from both Standard seven and Standard eight uh <#/>So those who are not selected from Standard seven will go into Standard eight for another chance the <-/>the <-/>the next year <#/>Those who are not of course selected after Standard eight they would still have an opportunity uh at least they would be mature enough this time to enter the world <#/>So that uh the parents won't be as fearful as uh they are now <#/>This is uh my proposal
<$C> <#/>When I talked to Azazi I was not talking about uh Standard Seven leavers <#/>I was talking about the youth <#/>Whether they have completed Standard Seven or Form Four Form Six University we have a problem of employment for the youth <#/>So I was talking generally about employment of the youth <#/>Right up to now in the minds of many people they think once you are educated to any level you should go into formal employment whether it is in government and the parastatal sector in the private sector get formal employment <#/>I don't know how many we get every year out of primary schools secondary schools and uh uh institutions of higher learning <#/>But I know those who are employed in the formal sector in this country it's just a little over seven hundred thousand <#/>We are educating more children more of the youth every year than the seven hundred thousand <#/>So we have a very serious problem of unemployment and this mainly for uh the youth <#/>So I was talking of how we can generate employment for the youth as we should not just look into uh the formal sector <#/>We should pay more attention to the informal sector and provide the services that are required so that people can use their own initiative especially the youth in gainful employment <#/>That's what I was talking <#/>You are talking about education uh <#/>Well the acting principal secretary Minister of Education is here <#/>He might take it <#/>I think you can formally follow it up in uh that procedure <#/>I think it's an issue which has been discussed for some time now <#/>Why did we <-_>did we<-/> abandon the Standard Eight System the eight year uh primary school system Why did we did we go into uh the seven four two three or four five or whatever you have but I think that is as you say it is a proposal <#/>Don't expect to me to react 
<$A> <#/>Members of the University of Dar es Salaam Academic Staff Assembly were not coming out  and the Prime Minister had to literally provoke them <#/>Then came this anonymous personality
<$D> <#/>It seems to be the <#/>We don't seem to be in control <#/>Take this university for example <#/>If you leave out uh the foreign assistance we are getting uh essentially we can't afford the university without the foreign assistance uh <#/>Leaving that aside you go to the other side of uh the proper running of a university where you plan you budget <#/>And then you find that the resources which Government gives us cannot allow us to implement our plans <#/>And then we end up with this crisis situation and then when a crisis occurs somehow resources are available uh <#/>That's what worries me <#/>We <-/>we <-/>we in one way we can we seem not to be able to afford the university in another way we don't seem to want uh <#/>I mean as an uh as an institution of higher learning one would expect it to set an example of proper planning and proper implementation of these plans <#/>And we <-/>we don't seem to be able to do that <#/>Now the environment somehow is not conducive to doing that <#/>That's what is worrying
<$C> <#/>And I have heard the deduction of what you pay as rent which is a large amount as well <#/>It's the use of resources I think when we are in time of crisis sometimes we know how to use the available resources <#/>The vice-chancellor was telling me that the Council has decided that staff who are lodged in hotels with effect from next year next academic year 
<$?> almost <-/>almost immediately 
<$C> <#/>immediately will be given sixty thousand shillings a month to find accommodation and that will serve <#/>I think you are using uh for some of them five hundred thousand shillings a month <#/>So instead of using a hundred and fifty-eight million to lodge people in hotels you might save more than a hundred million <#/>You haven't had more resources <#/>It's a reallocation of resources <#/>Well I don't think that is my really my problem <#/>I cannot sit and think if we think macro-micro <#/>There are macro-issues and micro-issues <#/>Now are we talking globally or specifically <#/>Because it is too general for me to react whether this rigidity is a national rigidity or you are saying it is the government <#/>The scarcity of resources that I don't dispute because it is the same argument I could hear from the Minister of Communications that we have so much of roadwork to do the money we are given is not enough <#/>Education is the same <#/>Health is the same <#/>Everywhere <#/>Now scarcity of resources is one <#/>We can talk of how to increase our resources <#/>The use of uh resources is another <#/>Now that's where we might come to rigidity <#/>Is it at the level of the University because some of the things that you are talking about are at the level of the University <#/>So are we talking about a general attitude of Tanzanians or are we talking of a Department or Government <#/>As I say if you <-/>you I agree with you in times of crisis some money might be found <#/>Fire-fighting <#/>Fire-fighting is used <#/>It's a method everywhere but there are others where within the allocated resources maybe you might have your own rigidity <#/>So crises sometimes provoke you <#/>I'm sure if things were okay you wouldn't have searched like that <#/>But you have a crisis you try to solve the crisis <#/>So in this case I think what has transpired I think the extra resources as far as I know were eighty million because twenty million <-_was><+_were> the resources of the University <#/>You have had a hundred million <#/>Twenty million came from the resources of the University <#/>The University was closed earlier you had said <#/>So you determined how to use the twenty million <#/>The eighty million came from the Government <#/>But apart from that you're in that crisis <#/>One of the items that was discovered say I think that a number of them whether you <-_talks><+_talk> about books you discovered that you are buying expensive books <#/>So you sit down you say why can't we buy cheaper books <#/>With the same resources we can get more books <#/>You are using a hundred and fifty-eight million for rent <#/>You say why can't we devise another system so that we can save and I'm sure what you are going to save from that rent money you can use it for other resources for other uh works in at the University <#/>So if it is a general criticism of rigidity in our minds or the system then we can <./>a all of us think about it uh <#/>Really I don't think you can because there are certain things we cannot interfere with you here <#/>And in any case the budget the framework comes from here <#/>You decide your priorities here in the context of the <-/>the little resources we have <#/>You are the ones who determine <#/>And I'm sure even the vice-chancellor before the budget comes <#/>I think it comes from every faculty <#/>And every faculty will determine its own priorities knowing that the resources are not enough <#/>Now where is the rigidity <#/>I <-/>I I'm not supposing that I'm trying to answer you <#/>You are provoking <#/>I'm trying to provoke you some more 

<$E> <#/>uh I'm Dr Muraga from the History Department <#/>I think the concept Mr Prime Minister the concept of having closed the University to save I think is wrong <#/>We haven't saved for  closing the University <#/>I think we should get away from this
<$C> <#/>No no no <#/>I didn't say that we closed the University in order to save that one consequence of <./>th closing the University was that you had some money and you wondered how to use that money and used it that way <#/>Now let me come to the point <#/>I think I don't know whether the vice-chancellor uh told you when I said if I come here I would like to have to <./>dis uh to discuss a few things with you <#/>The general impression we have and I think I'm gaining it here uh I don't know what that <#/>It's some sort of apathy at the University <#/>We don't know whether it is a consequence of the closure of the University but the sort of uh literature that you have uh issued is worrying us <#/>Because whatever has happened when the University reopens you are the people who are going to return it to normality <#/>And I told the vice-chancellor reading through <-/>through this you have a lot of concerns <#/>Now I thought I could come and discuss with you some of these concerns and that you'll be as frank as possible and discuss whatever worries you here <#/>This is your document isn't it <#/>Well it is a document of the General Assembly of UDASA <#/>You raise a number of concerns here <#/>As was willing and I told the vice-chancellor I was ready to spend three hours here so that we can discuss frankly because it worries us <#/>And I assume you discussed it in detail <#/>The President read this document <#/>He was worried <#/>He said I think we ought to have a fuller discussion with the members of the Academic Staff <#/>Clear out any misunderstandings any worries so that when the University opens we put the crisis behind and proceed <#/>As usual I'm the front man <#/>Sometimes it is easier that you  can talk with me rather than the President <#/>Now this document has made a good background very good background to the crisis <#/>Has examined in detail the issues and has set out how each of the actors dealt with the crisis the students the party the Government the University Administration including the Council and UDASA uh uh the mass media and right now we are working on whatever is necessary in order to open the University
<#/></I>S1B024T
<I> <$A> <#/>Well today we are discussing the International Village for Science and Technology here in Tanzania <#/>Maybe to begin with uh Dr Shayo can you tell us what this centre is all about
<$B> <#/>uh This centre uh actually it's not a centre it is a village It's  non-governmental uh non-profit-making international organisation uh whose objectives is to promote science and technology in Africa through the organisation and exploitation of uh indigenous scientific capacity <#/>The village will also develop young talents to the highest level possible
<$A> <#/>And are there any uh special reasons as to why this village <./>ha are there reasons as to why uh which necessitated the establishment of this particular village
<$B> <#/>uh There uh Actually there are several <-/>several reasons uh <#/>First the idea of creating the village arose out of uh desperate realisation that the traditional systems of education we inherited uh have not actually managed to uh to bring about uh uh the development of scientists and technologists in the region <#/>Now we have also been motivated uh through our participation at the uh International Centre for Theoretical Physics in Trieste Italy which was created in nineteen sixty-four precisely to assist uh scientists from developing countries uh to uh develop themselves and prevent them from running away from their countries <#/>Now we have the experience which uh African scientists participating in the ICTP sponsored activities on several occasions and deliberating on the plight of African scientists and appreciated that the creation of centres of excellence such as the Village is the only answer to the problems facing the <./>de developing countries and African countries in particular <#/>In general therefore the global motivation behind the creation of the Village is the unquestionable conviction that the Village will <./>revov revolutionise the <-/>the harnessing of the enterprise of science and technology in Africa and this is indispensable if we are to achieve any measurable social-economic development <#/>Now the Village is designed to promote science and <-/>and technology at all levels
<$A> <#/>Dr Shayo has uh told us about the Village and why uh there was need to put up such a village here in Tanzania <#/>Maybe <name/> can you dwell on the objectives of the Village 
<$C> <#/>uh Briefly one can say that there are five objectives <#/>The first is to enable scientists and technologists to exploit their ingenuity fully by providing them with the means and the best environment for innovations and a place for <-/>for thinking uh <#/>Two to promote uh inter-African and international co-operation in science and technology mainly because science really knows no boundaries <#/>Thirdly and this is particularly true in our situation in Africa today to provide special facilities for the training and development of talented scholars uh to the highest level possible <#/><-_Fourthly><+_Fourth> uh there is since science is so interrelated it is necessary to promote interdisciplinary research and development activities uh not only in an academic milieu but also in collaboration with industries <#/>Finally it is necessary to promote the teaching of science and technology at all levels uh and in particular so as to improve the quality of books laboratory equipment uh as well as to organise promotional activities and very related to this would be to have uh seminars for <-/>for teachers and zonal students to resolve problems
<$A> <#/>Dr Mvungi location of such a village in Tanzania uh Prof Msangi location of uh such a village uh in Tanzania is also uh very crucial <#/>Where do you intend to put up the <-/>the Village 
<$D> <#/>uh The International Village for Science and Technology will eventually have its headquarters in Arusha <#/>But before the headquarters are built the International Village for Science and Technology will be temporarily based in Dar es Salaam <#/>At present uh the preparatory activities of the Village are based at the University of Dar es Salaam but there are also possibilities that when the new offices uh the new office block of the Tanzania Commission for Science and Technology which is currently under construction gets completed towards the end of this year some of the activities of the International Village for Science and Technology might be based in that building
<$A> <#/>Are there any specific reasons as to why you decided to uh choose Arusha as the location of the Village 
<$D> <#/>Oh yes uh <#/>The Provisional Council of the International Village for Science and Technology considered four possible locations for the headquarters of the International Village for Science and Technology on the basis of four well-defined criteria <#/>One criterion was the ease of access by international airlines that is to say uh the availability of uh of a good and modern airport with international connections <#/>Secondly there was need <./>f uh for the Centre to be located in a place with a mild and favourable climate for academic work and a climate which is not corrosive to sensitive scientific equipment that is to say a climate which is characterised by moderate temperatures and humidity levels throughout the year uh <#/>Thirdly the place should be attractive and should have a <-/>a <-/>a an attractive countryside with tourist attraction so as to serve as an inducement for foreign scientists <#/>And <-_fourthly><+_fourth> there should be availability of a reasonable amount of infrastructure uh in the way of international standard hotel accommodation conference facilities and a <./>reason a reasonable amount of existing research facilities <#/>Now on the basis of those four criteria uh the four locations that were considered were Dodoma Morogoro Dar es Salaam and Arusha <#/>And on the basis of a point score Arusha obtained the highest score <#/>So it is intended that the International Village for Science and Technology shall be located or have its headquarters in Arusha
<$A> <#/>Thank you Prof Msangi <#/>Dr Mvungi can you uh <#/>What benefits do you foresee uh as to <#/>What benefits will Tanzania get by hosting the International Village of Science and Technology 
<$E> <#/>uh It is very many you know <#/>Many benefits can be enumerated uh <#/>First of all one could consider the possibility of all the scientists in country you know those who have the calibre to interact within the International Village <#/>They will have easy access to the Village and they will not be compelled to make formal arrangements for travel you know which normally takes a lot of time if you have to leave your own country to go to an international place for such activities <#/>The second reason is that the spring-offs from the Village will spread much more easily to the scholars and to the industries in the country by promoting productivity and we also expect that through its international activities the Village will promote scientific revolution uh not only in science but also in the area of technology in Africa in general but we expect that Tanzania will benefit more from this kind of revolution <#/>And the international character of the Village is expected to guarantee high standards and therefore provide a model to our local institutions which can <./>imu emulate by seeing what is happening at the International Village so that is also another benefit <#/>And another benefit is that scholars visiting the Village will be motivated to <./>pr to do more to produce more serious work to become more productive because I think normally when you work with colleagues who have produced results you're also motivated to produce results and we expect the Village to have that kind of attraction to our scientists <#/>And on the other hand we also expect that Tanzania will become a centre of science and technology and it will be known as a centre of science and technology and that we consider to be an important advantage by hosting this International Village uh <#/>It will also open the country to international scientific community and therefore not only <./>boo boost the tourist industry but also promote the outlook in the way we <./>b <-/>we should best harness the enterprise of science and technology for social-economic development <#/>And lastly I think that uh Tanzania will benefit by having uh <-_>by having<-/> other people support the Village through its uh <-/>through this <-/>this <./>ap <-/>through the activities of the Village once they know what is happening in the Village we'll get more support from the international community but within the field of science and technology and possibly help the country to industrialise more
<$A> <#/>Thank you very much Dr Mvungi for underlining the advantages of the uh Village to Tanzania <#/>Now if I may come back to you again Professor Mascarenhas <#/>Are there any plans for self-reliance in the operational plans of the Village 
<$C> <#/>Yes I would like to emphasise that uh the whole project has started by being self-reliant to the extent that the initiatives are coming from Tanzania itself <#/>Now in the future uh we will have to prevail upon this very good start which we made uh <#/>Let me say that in initial stages the Village will depend entirely on uh local uh as well as international donations uh <#/>However with the functions which you have already mentioned and those which are envisaged such a village cannot exist uh on its own especially in a poor developing country like Tanzania in fact if its goal is not eventually self-reliant but it is an international village and therefore we are not only talking about Tanzania uh <#/>I think we would like to emphasise the self-reliance will also be with other African countries <#/>With this uh realisation therefore the Village will adopt a policy which emphasises uh as we have already stated self-reliance right from the start <#/>Most institutions when they're young have to rely on sources outside for assistance also but I think in this particular case the percentage of the budget of uh the Village uh will increase from year to year until in fact the total amount coming to self-reliance activities will be an appreciable part of the total budget of the Village
<$A> <#/>Dr Shayo Maybe now we could uh go a little bit into the role of the Village in the promotion of education uh <#/>How will this particular Village <-/upbring> for instance primary education secondary education university education and <-/>and indeed research in Tanzania 
<$B> <#/>Well uh very generally the Village will promote primary secondary and university education uh by making its facilities available to scholars from these institutions uh <#/>It will promote research by offering hospitality to researchers <#/>Now to be more particular there will be an international uh primary school complex and an international secondary school complex at the Village specifically for talented scholars <#/>Now these schools will have the best available facilities or may let me say that the <-/>the uh we shall try to have the best <./>a available facilities for the training and development of such talents <#/>Now special visits by selected groups of these uh to these complexes will promote excellence in descending institutions <#/>Now the Village will also promote joint activities between primary schools and secondary schools on the one hand and between schools colleges and university teachers on the other hand in order to create required skills uh <#/>As an example uh one could uh you could envisage uh a joint activity uh in book-writing <#/>For example if you one is to produce a <-/>a book for secondary schools one could do uh use secondary school teachers and university teachers uh uh writing chapters jointly <#/>Now the Village will accommodate international research centres for each of the science disciplines that is Biological Sciences Biotechnology Chemical Sciences <O/> Sciences Mathematical Sciences uh Physics uh Technology and also a centre for uh the design and fabrication of science teaching and research <-_equipments><+_equipment> <#/>Now scientists from all African countries and also from all over the world uh will be able to conduct research and interact in various academic uh <./>act activities which will be organised at the Village <#/>Now the <-/>the of great importance is the Technology Centre which will form a link with industry <#/>It will have a variety of components for visiting innovative technologists who would like to maybe fabricate whatever uh gadgets they may have designed <#/>Moreover talented scholars will attend their uh undergraduate and postgraduate studies in the centres in the research centres with assistance of senior scientists visiting the Village <#/>Now what we are saying here is that the Village will have a will offer university education but not in the conventional sense uh of having a university campus and so on uh <#/>That is uh this <./>uni the undergraduates and postgraduates will join the respective uh research centres where uh scientists from all over the world will be there to assist them uh <#/>Special organised visits by selected undergraduate and research groups as well as industrialists will promote excellence in descending institutions <#/>For example a person working in an innovative person working in an industry could for example spend three months at the science village uh to complete uh work which could not have completed  in the place of work and after that go back to <-/>to <-/>to the industry
</I>S1B025T
<I> <$A> <#/>The important questions that were addressed in the paper are basically three which I think will be the focus of our discussion this afternoon <#/>The first question is whether women are able to participate in the productive processes and the welfare benefits in the course of economic development <#/>The second question is whether women are primary victims of exploitation <#/>And the third is what factors influence alternative <./>out outcomes with regard to women’s participation <#/>The fourth question which we will be addressing ourselves to will be to what extent are women aware of technical and financial support from donor agencies as well as loan schemes operated by different <-/>ba banks and other organizations in the country <#/>Now maybe we should start with the first question which is to what extent can women participate in the productive processes and the welfare benefits in the course of economic development uh Rose
<$B> <#/>Uh thank you the question is not whether women can participate <#/>I think it is a well-known fact that women do participate <#/>Statistics show that uh production in this country whether it’s food crop or whatever it’s the women who participate <#/>Over seventy-five per cent of the food production is being carried out by women in this country <#/>What is lacking here is that women have not been enabled to participate fully in development <#/>There are constraints that make <./>wo <-/>make women's contribution uh hampered <#/>That is uh work heavy load  that they have then lack of technologies that will reduce the work load and uh the lack of access to facilities that are being provided by the nation or the donors or whoever is providing the facilities <#/>And the other important thing is lack of effective participation in decision-making in the decision-making processes because I want to distinguish here between being represented and participating in decision-making
<$A> <#/>Any more comments
<$C> <#/>Well I think Rose is quite correct in the answer she gave for  your question <#/>Women are really participating and very much in agriculture <#/>But uh the point she raised about their participation in decision-making I think it is the cornerstone of the problem we are having  right now that uh in spite of the fact that women do participate but  they could do better if they would first be in the decision-making bodies right from the villages and up <#/>Therefore maybe we should not uh dwell in this  since the policies of this country favour the development of women maybe now in the execution of it we should see to it that women are involved in the decision-making to affairs  which can make them more able to participate in their development
<$A> <#/><ea/>Mama Busongo do you have any comments about this
<$D> <#/>Well there <-_are><+_is> a lot to be desired when you are talking about women in this country <#/>Your <-/>your question was are women able to participate in the production productive processes and the welfare benefits in the course of economic development <#/>Participation of the woman as uh Rose has said you can’t deny or there’s no limit where a woman is not participating in development of this country <#/>But there are a lot of things which make this woman not participate  fully in her capacity <#/>Uh I think one of the <-_factor><+_factors> which is very important for a woman is the health service which a woman is getting in our dispensaries which we are having  in our country <#/>Rose has said that in the <./>proc uh in the production we've got this seventy-five per cent of all the women participating in the economic development <#/>But when you go to the records health reports you find that twenty per cent of these women most of the time are pregnant <#/>Another twenty per cent of these women are having children under five years <#/>Now we all know how effective is a woman  in production when she is pregnant <#/>And we all know how busy is a <-/>a woman  when <-_it's><+_she’s> having  a child under five years <#/>And when we go to our dispensaries we find that we have got I mean the medicines drugs which we’re having  are not sufficient enough to make this woman be treated  when she is in need of treatment or when she brings her child to the dispensary <#/>You find that there is not enough medicine or treatment for this child <#/>As a result this woman is restless is busy with childcare is busy with her health as a pregnant woman <#/>So when you add these twenty per cent of pregnant women and another twenty per cent of <-/>of uh <-_mother><+_mothers> having  a child under five year five years you find that <./>twent forty per cent uh out of seventy-five per cent these women are in health problem  <#/>So if we want to <-/>to make these women to participate  fully in our production economic development it’s very important for our plans to make sure that  health department is very well equipped we have got these medicines in our dispensaries and in our hospitals so that we enable this woman to participate fully in economic development <#/>This is my opinion
<$A> <#/>I thank you <#/>One of the <-/>the issues as we discuss the role of the woman in the economic development is normally uh based on the woman as a health provider the woman as a food provider and the woman as the maker of the home in general <#/>And some of the issues that are normally discussed in these particular lines of arguments  do centre particularly on key issues that are important in maintaining the family that are important in the general up-keep of the family <#/>Uh in the area of health obviously it is important as Honourable Busonga uh said that the health of the woman <-_>of the<-/> of women in general is an important issue it’s an important factor in the general up-keep of these very <-_>these very<-/> individuals <#/>Uh what do you think should then be done in improving facilities in the health sector Mary Ruila 
<$C> <#/>First of all maybe I should start by saying uh that presently the government has done a lot to that since uh besides having the health services right there in the <-_>in the<-/> <-_>in the<-/> towns or in the city it has been possible to <-/>to have even dispensaries or health services in the villages <#/>If I give an example of my district here nearly all the fourteen villages have got dispensaries <#/>And they have they are running their MCH clinics for <-/>for <-/>for the mothers <#/>Now maybe to build up to that what I think could be done in order to improve the health services for the women is to carry out health education classes I think this is very fundamental <#/>I really think it is still <-_>it is still<-/> lacking <#/>I know it is done in the hospitals <#/>I mean when you go there before <-/>before you are attended then there will be a class going but I don’t think it is enough <#/>One that person is sick therefore when one gets there maybe with a baby and if she’s sick I don't think it is the proper time <#/>I don’t think she can grasp the matter from there <#/>But there should be deliberate classes or training <./>he <./>heal health training programmes for <-/>for <-/>for <-/>for the women in order to know some basic health issues <#/>And I think this would alleviate this problem of uh diseases and health care for this home maker
<$A> <#/>Any comments Mrs Rugembe
<$B> <#/>Uh I agree with <ea/>Mama Ruila that prevention is better than cure <#/>We all are aware that these there aren’t enough sufficient funds to equip the hospitals with the required medicine so the approach of prevention should be stressed and then in that way you reduce I guess the number of diseases or you reduce the chances of people getting sick <#/>And uh there will only be need to go to the hospital when you know health care prevention care hasn’t succeeded instead of besides going to the <-_>to the<-/> curative centres <#/>And uh when you have a healthy home when you have a healthy mother I believe you are definitely going to have a healthy home because a healthy mother will be able to participate fully in other activities that will benefit the family <#/>Maybe that I leave to your second observation I think it was are women aware of 
<$A> <#/>Yeah that’s right <#/>The extent to which women are aware of technical and financial support uh available in the country uh <#/>Apart from health the other key sector which was addressed was really the agricultural sector <#/>Now the issue here is really the need to expand women’s access to agricultural research and extension services perhaps by training key females who should be able to take up key positions in that particular area and in order to improve uh the women’s participation in that particular sector <#/>Uh how do you think this should actually be done uh <name/> Busongo
<$D> <#/>Well if we want to improve in agriculture there is a <-/>a lot to be desired on  how a woman should participate fully in knowing what to do so that she can improve the production of
<$A> <#/>food
<$D> <#/>Well it’s food it’s uh anything which she is growing <-_>she’s growing<-/> in her in her farm should be done properly according to the what the agriculture experts are trying to explain to us <#/>But what I think is lacking is how we are trying to make these ladies participate fully when we want to make them reach  the knowledge of how to use their talents and knowledge of agriculture so that when he farms when she farms she <-_get><+_gets> more production per acre uh before comparing to what she was doing before <#/>Now we need a lot of seminars on how to use uh fertilisers how to plant using uh spacing according to the knowledge of these agricultural people <#/>So what I think we need a lot of seminars in our demonstration farms <#/>There is a <-_>there is a<-/> need of having small farms projects <-_to><+_in> the village so that these ladies can see how much they can grow they can get from a little space <#/>This is what I think this could be done
<$A> <#/>All right yeah to what extent do you think demonstration farms would be important uh <name/> Rugembe
<$B> <#/>Uh in the old days I used to hear and see demonstration farms but my approach would be using the farmers’ farms <#/>And the farmers’ farms should <./>be become the demonstration farms <#/>So in order to do this first you need to increase the intake of female and of course male agricultural extension officers in schools so that you have more that can reach the <-/>the farmers and farmers meaning men and women <#/>And then when you have these extension officers you could use the extension officers to go to make farm visits in their farms so that you know the demonstrations are done in their own farms <#/>When this is not possible then it's to use the existing facilities  like the rural training centres the <O/> development colleges and uh all the other institutions that we have <#/>Then you can call the farmers and I insist farmers meaning women because they’re the ones who are farming to these <-_>to these<-/> institutions where uh other facilities are available and teach them how to use uh whether it is fertilisers or irrigation pumps or whatever you have <#/>That is the only way that you can <-_>you can<-/> increase the knowledge of the women farmers and men farmers so that they can be more productive in the farms <#/>This business of calling seminars for male farmers will not take us very far because when they go back these guys don’t go back to the farms and farm <#/>They <-/>they explain to the women oh I went to that seminar and I was taught this and this <#/>So it is important that the services and the education should reach the one who is farming
<$A> <#/>So you think training females would actually be much more important than the traditional methods where males have been <./>tr trained and they go back to the villages as uh <-/>as uh field assistants and so on
<$B> <#/>Male <-/>male training the females is very important and training the female farmers themselves because it is easier I believe for a female extension officer to communicate with a female farmer
<$A> <#/><name/> Rulia
<$C> <#/>I would only like uh to assure this audience one thing <#/>The question of training women and not in the <O/> governmental colleges but right in the farms We have <-_>we’ve tried<-/> this in Kibaha </I>
S1B026T
<I> <$A> <#/>Who would like to take the first plunge may be to give us the definition of culture <#/>Who’d like to define culture <#/>Okay uh Emilian 
<$B> <#/>Okay thank you uh <#/>culture is a <-_>is a<-/> wide term and it has been defined in uh very many ways and uh we can say that culture means the totality of life of a particular society <#/>Culture is a totality of life of a particular society including political social and economic affairs of that particular society <#/>Cultural things can <-/>can be exemplified by ways of dressing ways of cooking ways of handling marriage affairs etcetera etcetera
<$A> <#/>Thank you very much <#/>Does anybody want to add in  some more Uh Omari 
<$C> <#/>Well I think uh in general we can say it's a <#/>Culture is the traditional norms and beliefs of a certain society which uh includes the as my colleague here has said dressing the people behave the way the people behave in that society
<$A> <#/>Okay and uh gender <#/>Cuthbert you want to try this 
<$D> <#/>Well first of all gender is not the same as sex because we have two things gender and sex <#/>So gender is <-_cultural><+_culturally> defined which <-_differentiate><+_differentiates> between females and male their activities and the things of that nature but sex is <-_biological><+_biologically> uh recognizable <#/>So when we talk about gender we have to put more emphasis on culture
<$A> <#/>Okay would we be right in saying that uh gender is the relationship between males and females perhaps Datus 
<SE> <#/>To some extent you might be right to say so <#/>But when we talk of gender the insistence is on culturally constructed differences between males and females <#/>That's where the insistence comes in
<$A> <#/>Okay <#/>So the next thing that we are supposed to define here in our context is change <#/>What do we mean by change here Cuthbert 
<$D> <#/>Change in a simple form we can say is just uh transformation <#/>That means transform to transform from one stage to another or from a certain situation to another <#/>That is change
<$A> <#/>Okay Omari You want to add on  
<$C> <#/>Well uh well I think uh we can say change is uh moving from one position to <-_a><+_the> next or from a certain kind of uh way of uh living to another simply we can say even moving from traditional to maybe modern status
<$A> <#/>Okay maybe from backwardness to profuse
<$C> <#/>Yes
<$A> <#/>and things like that <#/>I see uh Datus is raising a hand <#/>What do you want to say 
<$E> <#/>Yes In fact when we are talking about the <-/>the definition of change in fact it is a broad term <#/>If we <-/>if <-_>if we<-/> talk of changing from backward to forward of course that's part of change but in fact we may look the word change even in normal <-_>in normal<-/> terms <#/>Sometimes a person may move from one place to another that's change may change <#/>A person may change a way of life <#/>That's change already <#/>Now if we relate the question of change in the whole process of culture gender and related with change we are I think we are much referring to change from one way of living to another way in the sense that the previous the previous level was to some extent at the lower <-/>lower level of living now to we are moving to the better way of living <#/>That's why we are referring to change in relation to culture gender and change itself
<$A> <#/>Okay I think this far we have uh managed to give a <-/perspection> or perspective to our listeners as to what uh we perceive to be uh culture gender and change <#/>Now we are on we are moving on with our discussion <#/>Who would like to take the first plunge whether we should look at these aspects differently or we should uh address these aspects you know in totality <#/>When we are addressing culture gender and change should we identify or discuss these in separation or should we take them as an entity one entity Uh Omari 
<$C> <#/>Well I think uh we will discuss this in its totality with the aim especially of <#/>Our aim is to discuss what at least from a male's perspective what could be done to enhance uh the women's position uh in relation to uh what men can do men and women together and women as well <#/>So this will take the issue uh discussion as a totality
<$A> <#/>Okay <#/>So before we even address ourselves to what perhaps should be done maybe it would be better to look at the present situation <#/>How is the situation of culture gender and change in present day uh Tanzania Cuthbert 
<$D> <#/>I think the present situation as far as culture gender and change is concerned we can say that women are very much concerned uh at that time women are trying to emancipate themselves because for a long time it has been said that women are suppressed uh and this is due to the cultural situation <#/>So all in all in the present situation we can say that woman uh women are still uh suppressed and now they have to find some ways of change and these changes must go hand in hand with men so both genders must participate together in order to create changes and uh these changes must start from the grassroot or we can say from the family level up to the national level <#/>That is all I can say
<$A> <#/>Okay thank you Cuthbert <#/>I liked the way you put it but uh I would like <-_>I would like<-/> you to be more personal because you are saying it is said women are oppressed <#/>What do you say <#/>What do you say as a male 
<$D> <#/>Okay as a male and as far as my culture is concerned I can also say that women to some extent are oppressed since they are denied of their right
<$A> <#/>Okay thank you very much Datus
<$E> <#/>Yes in fact maybe responding to the first part of your question culture gender and change whether to treat them in a holistic manner or to differentiate them my comment is that we cannot differentiate the three because they are intertwined <#/>Now with reference to Tanzania we have seen that the culture is the way of living and gender is embedded within culture <#/>That's why we cannot talk of gender uh in a <-_>in a<-/> universal way <#/>Now when we are looking at this country of ours Tanzania we look at our country it has its own culture though again this is debatable whether we have got our own culture or what but uh I think that's not uh part of uh the <-_>of the<-/> debate now <#/>Now gender of our country is that in fact the difference between men and females or uh let's say females and males is there and it is both I mean it is actually socially constructed <#/>Now at this time women are not inherently treated as they are supposed to be and in fact the difference comes in when we look at uh <-_>when we look at<-/> the way culture treats women and the way this culture treats men because if you look at <-/>at the whole process of gender it is socially constructed <#/>Now at this particular moment we are looking for change and change is inevitable at this particular time <#/>But again if <-/>if before we look at change I think the most emphasis the most <./>import important point to insist on is change from where to where <#/>Where are we now and why are we looking for change <#/>I think that's where we must put the more emphasis
<$A> <#/>Okay thank you very much <#/>From you I got two points that uh uh the whole question of women's oppression and suppression is socially constructed and it is embedded in culture <#/>Okay Emilian let’s hear from you <#/>You've been quiet for quite some time
<$B> <#/>Yes I'm also of the opinion that these three things culture gender and change should be discussed uh <-/>discussed together because they depend on one another because gender as the relationship between men and the women depends on the culture of a particular society <#/>That's why we <-/>we <-/>we can see that uh gender relations are different perhaps in the African traditions compared to <-/>to Western or European American traditions <#/>That's why I say that culture gender and change should be looked upon together and not in single entities <#/>Of course according to me at the particular moment uh our culture <-_>our culture<-/> as Tanzanians <-_>our culture as<-/> uh yes <-_>our culture as Tanzanians<-/> has been brought up by history uh to the extent that women <-/>women are enjoying an inferior position compared to men whether you <-/>you look at uh <-_>you look<-/> in several sectors of the economy or aspects of life that women uh uh occupy an inferior position compared to men and uh at this particular juncture when our country is undergoing social political and economic transformations uh when we are about to undergo change it is appropriate now to address ourselves to <-/>to <-/>to realizing and addressing uh those patches where gender imbalances occur that's gender imbalances <-_occurs><+_occur> because in <-/>in when a society changes <-_>when a society changes<-/> a change should involve all parts of this society because a change should be total and not partial because partial change would lead the society into an <./>un unpredicted situation which can be bad or harmful to that particular society
<$A> <#/>So now as we enter into multiparty politics how do you view you know the position of women you know looking at culture historically and at present time looking also at uh the gender imbalances that uh Emilian just talked about and also uh looked at from the point of view that uh for a long time women were not there when uh politics were being discussed Omari 
<$C> <#/>Uh thank you <#/>Well in this uh multi-partyism era we could say that uh up to this moment the women are many of these parties are not really well explicit of <-_women><+_women's> position but uh on my view  is that I think uh at least there should be these parties should at least <./>integr integrate the women's position in their whole system of leadership <#/>What I mean here is that in the past even the CCM now I think should think of a way of uh not keeping women as a women's wing which is the trunk there we <-/>we can't really define because if this is a political party then all the people should be the whole trunk and no wings I think <#/>So what I see now is that also these new parties are taking almost the same stance uh having women's wing uh <#/>I don't know which is the trunk but I think the whole party all members are the trunk of the party <#/>So my feeling is that uh women's position may be put into a much better situation if uh they are not taken as a separate entity but uh people who uh have the right to be there in the centre and they can contest for any position available
<$A> <#/>Okay considering the many uh disadvantages that women have in society due to cultural norms due to gender imbalances and due to the change that has actually been imposed on us it is not the kind of change that we wanted in the first place how do you see women being integrated into this change <#/>Who wants to Okay Datus 
<$E> <#/>Yes maybe to respond in a very viable way let's go back a bit to history <#/>There is the question of political culture in the whole process of democracy or uh of course we talk on this as democracy and part of multi-partyism <#/>Now there is a political culture of this country which existed even before independence and now it is repeating itself in the multi-party politics or multi-party era now <#/>If you visit our history in the pre-independence period when this country was fighting for its independence women were involved though not in a way that everyone of us could have reasonably now <./>state stated openly that they were involved <#/>The political culture I am referring to is that of using women to mobilize party membership and again using few women and placing them in the high profile or in the high political profile only to carry the party organs and make them be and then make them believe and in fact to confuse those who are <-_>who are<-/> below the profile that women are incorporated in the whole process of <-/>of politics <#/>We saw before independence we have the <./>hist story of Titi and the other one who was the first <-_>the first<-/> uh <-_>the first<-/> CCM the first <-_>the first<-/> TANU General Secretary of <-/>of the women <-/>women wing UWT  </I>
S1B027T
<I> <$A> <#/>Thank you <name/> <#/>On my side I think it it's better to say environmental management rather than environmental conservation because when you conserve something it means you are not using it but in the case of environmental <-/>environmental issues we are using the environment at the same time trying to preserve it from destruction so I would rather say environmental management and not only management sustainable management of the environment <#/>Okay when we talk of environmental management we are talking of preserving the environment from destruction preserving the resources from depletion and from pollution of the same resources for example distinction of endangered flora and fauna <#/>When we talk of flora and fauna we mean plants and animals <#/>There are several species of animals <#/>For example we have the black rhino which is about to be depleted in our country <#/>So trying to preserve the black rhino is one of the issues in environmental management <#/>Likewise maintaining the air quality <#/>Maintaining the air from pollution <#/><./>We When we have clean air that's when we talk of environmental management of our air and also when we have clean water unpolluted water <#/>In certain cases we talk of Zigi river Karanga river <./>we the rivers which are polluted by wastes from industry <#/>So in fact environmental management essentially means preserving our resources namely land water and air from destruction and at the same time using the resources effectively 
<$B> <#/>Thank you Mrs Maembe for your contribution and thank you for giving us the right word that is not environmental conservation but it's not but it's environmental management that is because we are not experts at all <#/>So now we know that uh environmental management is preserving the environment from destruction depletion etcetera <#/>uh Mr Tenende do you have anything to say on what really do we mean when we talk about environmental conservation or I mean environmental management
<$C> <#/>Well I think I agree with uh Mrs Maembe because when we manage I mean using the land in a manner which would ensure that uh the resources are there uh in the future to enable sustainable life to continue
<$B> <#/>uh <?/>Erin Jiko do you have anything to add apart from 
<$D> <#/>Yes <#/>Having agreed having agreeing with <-_having agreed>-/> with them I <./>s still have wish to add that environmental conservation particularly in agriculture the way I see it is conservation of natural resources as they have said but I would like to include the conservation of human resources in this case particularly the woman herself <#/>It is not enough to just talk about <./>n uh natural resources like land and water then we should talk about the human resource in that case then we would touch the issues concerning her health and energy depletion when performing her tasks 
<$B> <#/>Now we understand uh uh when we talk uh about environmental conservation or environmental management we mean preserving natural resources and human resources <#/>Now how do you do we view the state of environmental problems in our country Mr Tenyende
<$C> <#/>Well of course there are a lot of examples showing the destruction of environment uh <#/>For example there are statistics which show that uh uh the forest land which was there in nineteen twenty has been destroyed to the extent that only forty per cent remains and uh we are told that uh deforestation is continuing at a rate of zero point five <./>perc per cent per year and this is something to be concerned <-_with><+_about> because the impact is quite great both on land and climate and therefore there are <-_>there are<-/> examples of destruction of our environment in this country
<$B> <#/>Mrs Maembe
<$A> <#/>The <-/>the state of environmental problems in this country range from environmental degradation and when we talk on of environmental degradation we <-_real><+_really> mean soil erosion deforestation depletion of woodlands or pollution of our land for example those gold miners in <name/> <#/>These people are using mercury in the extraction of gold <#/>At the same time that this mercury is finding its way <-_in><+_into> the streams and polluting the waters which are used for domestic use and other <.>por purposes <#/>Likewise we have depletion of our <ea/><?/>nyumbo lands <#/>Of course in Tanzania we know that we have very big parts covered by <ea/><?/>nyumbo woodlands and these parts are <-_real><+_really> being <./>ut utilised for making charcoal for cutting poles to build the houses and so on <#/>As a result a lot of areas have been depleted of their trees <#/>Likewise we have bush fires which are so rampant in our country especially during this dry season <#/>So these are just some of  environmental problems in our country <#/>Just to to add to that we have also these farmers who are clearing a lot of woodlands for agriculture and in fact we sometimes put a pointing finger to agricultural people  that these are the culprits of our environmental destruction because we think they go with one package of agriculture rather than sustainable agriculture for conserving our whatever resources are there <#/>Rather than cutting trees we think it would have been advisable for them to try to talk of agro-forestry rather than agriculture alone
<$B> <#/>We have heard from Mrs Maembe that the state of environmental problems in our country is mainly caused by bush fires uh soil erosion etcetera <#/><?/>Erin <name/> Jiko you are from the ministry of agriculture you might have something more to tell us <#/>What is the state of the environmental problems in our country
<$D> <#/>Well concerning the woman in agriculture I see her environment you know in relation to the health problems that she's encountering <#/>You know the undesirable consequences such as backaches headaches you know lethargy and general malaise that is obtained from you know walking long distances you know trekking distances to look for firewood to look for uh uh fodder for their animals to look for uh to fetch farm produce to and from the farms and to look for fertile land as a result of environmental destruction that Mrs Maembe talked about <#/>So really that's how I view the environmental uh problem in <-/>in our country as relation to the woman herself
<$B> <#/>uh According to what you talked about he it seems that the state of environmental problems in our country is threatening because still women have to walk long distances to fetch water to look for firewood or to look for fertile land <#/>So uh can we ask ourselves why is it so <#/>Is there any reason that contributed to this state Mrs Maembe
<$A> <#/>There are a lot of factors which have contributed to environmental problems in our country <#/>I would rather say <-/>say the first thing that environmental awareness in our country is very low <#/>Sometimes people are doing  things unknowingly <#/>For example in cases whereby you have people cutting a lot of uh trees for charcoal making sometimes they know that they uh <-/>they are destroying the environment but circumstances force them to do so because of social economic problems and in certain cases you have no alternative sources of energy so you will be resolved to go to cutting  trees rather than starve yourself <#/>So one of the factors is that of social economic status of the country <#/>It's contributing a lot to our environmental problems and two in certain cases for example in catchment areas in catchment forests people just go there and cut their trees <-_unknowingly><+_not knowing> that those are the sources of rivers those are the sources of water and after some time you find that the rivers the water streams dry up because of destruction of catchment areas though those are just a few cases whereby you have people unknowingly destroy their own environment and another issue again is that we have sometimes inappropriate agricultural practices <#/>People are farming in the marginal lands and on the hill slopes sometimes not practising environmental conservation or environmental management terracing of the hills making water furrows and so on <#/>Those two also contribute very much to environmental problems in our country
<$B> <#/>The main reason that contributed to this state of environmental problems in our country which has been said  by Mrs Maembe is the economic status of the country <#/>Any Mr Tenyende do you agree that population growth can uh increase can be one of the <-_reason><+_reasons> that contributed to this state 
<$C> <#/>Yeah exactly because uh the destruction the degradation of environment is due to human activity Now this the output outcome of the human <./>ac activity depends on two things uh technological practices and the quantity of activity and uh population comes in because as population increases even  human activity increases <#/>More and more people for example our country depends on agriculture <#/>Now when the population increases it means more and more land is put under agriculture <#/>As Mrs Maembe has mentioned because of population increase the good fertile land is scarce that  the additional population moves into marginal land and given the level of technology we have the outcome is soil erosion uh and other degradations of the land and therefore population is quite key because even the system of farming changes <#/>When there was small population  in the country uh shifting cultivation was very useful because you cultivate this plot this year and you leave it to recover and you're coming back  when it is also again fertile <#/>Today it's not <./>pess possible any more because of the concentration of people due to population growth 
<$B> <#/>So Mr Tenyende you really agree that population growth <./>incr uh <-_increase><+_increases> the state of environmental problems in our country and <?/>Erin <name/> Jiko what do you say about it
<$D> <#/>Well on the better methods of farming uh like the advocating of the use of chemical fertilisers there I see uh another problem emerging really in trying to solve uh the problem of conserving the land of fertilising the soil <#/>I'm still on the conservation of the human resources actually or when they apply chemical fertilisers and pesticides and all other agrochemicals most of the farmers and uh including women they  do not have uh protective clothing <#/>The issue of protective clothing or protective gear you know things like gloves and gum boots so these ones  really have got a lot of uh uh negative health impact <#/>I look at it is as a very big uh contributing factor to environmental degradation particularly in their health <#/>We advocate in our training sessions that okay gloves should be used and whatnot but then the limitation comes to the availability of these uh protective <-/>protective gear  I rarely see <-_>I rarely see<-/> so sometimes when we are trying to conserve in the environment when trying to we're trying to conserve the natural <./>re resources and then on the other hand we destroy the human resources so the application of chemical fertilisers is one of the contributions to the detriment of environment
<$B> <#/>uh We have got different opinions on to why uh the state of environment problems in our country is threatening <#/>And uh we found that the awareness is very low so people don't know the alternative sources of energy to use uh <#/>We heard that <./>popul when population increases the human activity is increasing and so <./>mo more land is used <#/>And uh in that case the fertile land is not enough for all people to uh take part  in it And uh <?/>Erin <name/> Jiko has reminded us something about protective clothing when using agrochemicals <#/>All these are factors that contribute to environmental problems in our country <#/>But on the other hand women have the <-/>have a big role to play in conserving this environment <#/>What measures women take  in conserving the environment in Tanzania Mr Tenyende
<$C> <#/>Well it is sometimes <-_difficulty><+-diffivult> to outline exactly what women take to conserve uh environment because they are working or their activities are within the social context uh where they are not working alone uh <#/>One of the main <-_area><+_areas> which I think is appropriate for women to take is first of all to move themselves from the social status they <-/>they have today where they don't have uh the freedom to make decisions <#/>It appears most of the crucial critical uh decisions in relation to the use of resources is undertaken by men and therefore either way I feel it is that women have very limited <-_opportunity><+_opportunities> uh to undertake conservation uh uh natural resource conservation because of their <-/>their status in the social <-_>in the social<-/> field 
<$B> <#/>Yes women have uh limited opportunity to conserve the environment <./>i in Tanzania but they have their measures uh in which they take part in conserving the environment and that's what we want to know </I>
S1B028T
<I> <$E> Meeting of the Minds <#/>Hello and welcome to our discussion programme known as Meeting of the Minds <#/>Population is a sensitive issue which is now a major topic of discussion in various international fora because of the rapid population growth especially in developing countries <#/>In this first instalment in Two we'll look at among other things the implication of population increase <-_to><+_for> the development process <#/>Taking part in this discussion are Dr Flavian Magari National Programme Officer United Nations Population Fund Mrs Christine Nsekella Executive Director of Tanzania Family Planning Commission and Mr Ulinyelusura Tenyende Assistant Director Human Resource Planning <#/>Leonard Mtawa is the moderator <#/>The programme sets the scene with Dr Flavian Magari 
<$B> <#/>Our population according to the nineteen eighty-eight census is about twenty-three million and uh the growth rate is put at around two point eight per cent <#/>With this growth uh our population is expected to double uh in the next twenty-five years <#/>That means our population will be over forty-five million uh in the next within uh our lifetime 
<$A> <#/>For a layman when you mention something like population problem please can you explain it in a language whereby somebody can understand <#/>What do you mean by population problem
<$B> <#/>Well what we mean by population problem can be explained in the in various contexts <#/>We can look at the population problem from the point of view of our economy our social services <#/>We can look at the <./>pr uh the problem of population from the point of view of environment and also from the point <-/>point of view of the health of the mothers and the family in general <#/>So these are the major areas uh of the population problem I think which we should discuss in our discussion today 
<$A> <#/>Since the question of economy has been raised as uh one of the major contributing <-_factor><+-factors> to the uh <-_>to the<-/> magnitude of population problem now <#/>Mr Ulinyselusura Tenyende what do you have to say on that area
<$C> <#/>uh Mr Moderator I would firstly say that here we are talking of population by which we mean the number of people in a country and uh that is this number which makes up the nation of that country and uh it is the concern of that < />co uh of <-/>of that nation that this population enjoys a certain type of life and therefore it is the government's task and it has been a task to find ways of raising the standard of living of Tanzanians who make the population of Tanzania and give them the capacity to further develop themselves uh <#/>Now it becomes a problem in today's world mainly for two reasons <#/>First we are looking in the future we are looking at the rate of growth of the population <#/>From the nineteen eighty-eight census we saw that the intercensal growth rate that is the rate from nineteen seventy-eight to nineteen eighty-eight was two point eight per cent and that by historical standards and by world standards is a very big rate of growth <#/>As Dr Magari was saying it is this rate of growth which makes the population to double  in a very short time <#/>Secondly is the fact that we relate this population growth and economic performance because we <-_wants><+_want> this population to be composed of well uh well-fed individuals <#/>Now we look that if the economy is growing at this rate and that population is growing at this rate you can see whether the economy can sustain you see the population which is growing like this <#/>Now given the short period of independence and particularly the crisis we have had since nineteen eighty statistics <-_shows><+_show> that if the economy is not going to increase to grow  given this rate of growth of the population of course it indicates  problem
<$A> <#/><ea/>Mama Christine Nsekella it's now your turn and since you are from the Tanzania Family Planning Association you are dealing with the planning of <-_>the uh planning of<-/> the family <#/>Maybe uh you have something to tell us why uh I mean the nature of the problem how it appears that we have  population problem
<$D> <#/>Well it appears that we have uh family or population problems is  that maybe over the years quite a number of people have not been conscious of planning their own families uh compared to the resources that they have within their home first of all uh which adds up to a problem <-_to><+_for> the < />nat nation <#/>As a nation uh one really depends on how < />m how many people increase in a family in a given number of years <#/>So the nation tends to gain more people if uh the individual families are not planned uh <#/>This is why the Family Planning Association has been engaged in educating the people the Tanzanians on why it is important for them to plan their families and how they can plan because we think it is a human right for each Tanzanian to be able first of all to know why it is important to plan their families and how to plan <#/>And for those who have reached the age of uh bearing children to be able to get the services so that they can be able  to plan their own families <#/>It is important because if you look at the family of today uh the family that requires all the necessary amenities in the home uh <#/>With that I mean proper clothing proper shelter uh proper education and proper love motherly and fatherly love <#/>The love that is needed for each individual child uh <#/>I think it is important that Tanzanians should be able to know all this and to relate their uh ability to take care of their children as well as to see the resources that are made available to each member of the family <#/>It can be a problem as Mr uh Tenyende has just pointed  that if numbers are not planned according to the social economic development of the country then at individual level as well as at national level our population is uh going to be continuously under-developed and therefore will have to suffer in many ways both socially and economically
<$A> <#/>As to what extent is the public is I mean the public awareness is on the population problems  and the issues of family planning
<$D> <#/>Well currently I would say that uh we think we have managed to reach to  quite a large portion of the population but that is that is not enough because there is always some new peoples  there's always some people that need more information and need articulated information and services at the same time <#/>We think uh quite a number of people are aware of why it is important for them to plan their families and how dangerous  unplanned population can be to a nation uh but this kind of awareness has to be related to the provisions of the services that are available in the country because it's no good just educating people making them aware without matching the information with the services that are aware are <-/>are available uh for them to use in the country and this is where uh the service provision comes in by uh  private sector by the government particularly and by the uh association itself uh <#/>The services are there but probably we need to intensify more and that is not the only intervention to help the population problem issue <#/>There are many more others 
<$A> <#/>Dr Flavian Magari hopefully after discussing uh briefly on  the <-/>the problem of population in our situation uh our listeners are at least aware of how the situation is <#/>Now what is currently done  to uh whether to control or to overcome such a <-/>a situation
<$B> <#/>Well thank you very much Mr Mtawa <#/>I think I would like to <-/>to take a point of the problems a little further problems associated with the rapid population growth <#/>I think there are two major areas which we have to bring to light <#/>One of them is the environment uh <#/>Our environment is very much uh  vulnerable uh although we do not have deserts now but we have some areas in this country which are threatened uh by the desert and we you uh we have some clear examples in Shinyanga Region and there's there are other regions which are threatened like Iringa Mbeya uh and others <#/>So as long as you have a rapid population uh their demands for fuel their demands for areas to cultivate they increase the people increase uh the number of cattle they have and the other <-/>other animals and all these have got a bearing on our environment uh and this is not to mention urban areas where uh the population problem is being felt <#/>In areas like Dar es Salaam and <-/>and and other towns uh and <-/>and particularly in some regions like uh <-/>like <-/>like Kilimanjaro they really feel the pinch of the problem of population growth <#/>Another area which I think we should mention uh is the from the health point of view <#/>From this point of view we have one of the questions is malnutrition <#/>We have a big problem of malnutrition in this country <#/>Almost fifty per cent of our children under five have uh malnutrition <#/>Most of it is moderate but uh five to eight per cent is severe malnutrition uh <#/>This is because they don't get enough to eat uh <#/>Although we can say that there are some areas in this region where food is growing is in plenty but still we find that we have this problem in quite a number of areas and uh malnutrition is generally a problem <#/>But uh I would like to uh to concentrate mainly on the health of the mothers which is very much affected by uh too early pregnancies close too close pregnancies and also too late pregnancies <#/>When I say too early I mean where women or young mothers decide to have children before they are physiologically or they are their bodies are able to have children and they and therefore uh well let's say not only physiological but also socially and mentally uh ready to have children to rear them in <-/>in the <-_>in the<-/> way that <ea/>Mama Nsekella has explained <#/>And also uh there are a lot of dangers that uh that mothers face when they < />ha when they have their children too close uh between if they have their children uh within a year or two it may be very dangerous for the health of the mother so we so it is uh being uh we try to <-/>to <-/>to <-/>to <-/>to promote this idea of spacing the children <#/>And also getting the children too late over thirty-five over thirty-five years of age it is often dangerous for the mother <#/>Now the major problem that we see is maternal mortality that is death in uh in women that <-_occur><+_occurs> during the process of childbirth or during pregnancy <#/>And in Tanzania about four thousand uh mothers die every year uh from childbirth or also during pregnancy <#/>This is a very high rate compared to our uh colleagues in the developing <./>count countries in the developed countries and it appears uh that this is almost forty-six times the level that is seen in the developed countries <#/>Apart from that you we get the problems of maternal <O/> that is uh the illness that is associated if <-/>if they don't die <#/>Sometimes they get some severe damage to the soft tissues some become infertile uh others become uh immobilized for quite a long time in hospital <#/>So all this is associated with uh <-/>with <-/>with childbirth <#/>Another area which I think is very important to <-/>to look at is a question of the effect of uh the death of the mother on surviving children <#/>It has been found that in <./>s <-/>in quite a number of studies that uh if a mother dies the chances that uh her child if the child is under one the <./>s the chances that that child will survive beyond the first year are very low almost uh eighty to ninety-five percent of these children die if their mothers die at birth  uh <#/>But coming back to your <-_>to your<-/> question I think when you look at uh at these problems which have been raised uh one of the interventions which uh we're promoting is family planning <#/>As <ea/>Mama Nsekella <-/>Nsekella said we provide family planning and we promote uh family planning because it allows the families to plan their next child <#/>Uh And planning means the mother I mean the couple husband and wife should come should discuss as to when they would like to have their next child and we have the means to <-/>to for to help them postpone the next pregnancy until such time that they feel they're ready to have the next one
</I>
S1B029T
<I> <$E> <#/>Meeting of the Minds <#/>Hello and welcome to our discussion programme known as Meeting of the Minds the second and last instalment to discuss population and family planning <#/>Last week we finished off with <ea/>Mama Christine Nsekella talking about how in the olden days both boys and girls were adequately prepared to take up their parental roles <#/>She was critically examining the problem of experimenting in sex very early in life with little or no preparation <#/>Members of the panel include Dr Flavian Magari National Programme Officer with United Nations Population Fund Dr Ali Mzige Senior Medical Officer in the Ministry of Health Mrs Christine Nsekella Executive Director of Tanzania Family Planning Association and Mr Ulinyeluswa Tenyende Assistant Director Human Resource Planning <#/>The Moderator is Leonard Mtawa and Dr Magari picks  where <ea/>Mama Nsekella left off 
<$B> <#/>I would like to take uh <ea/>Mama Nsekella's uh point a little further uh <#/>It is a fact today that uh the norms that uh were prevalent during her times when she was young are no longer uh prevailing <#/>During those times uh traditionally we had <ea_><ea/> which was a way uh to teach the young people young men and young women uh on changes during <-/>during adolescent changes during when they grow up become adults they were taught about uh what to expect when they get married or when they marry <#/>They were also taught about how to take care of their families <#/>But due to the developments uh and children have got to stay in school for a long time and uh you know families have moved into towns and so on these norms are no longer being practised in the majority of cultures <#/>So we have to find alternative ways of imparting that education to the young generation and as she said one way is to introduce uh what we call family life education in schools and in fact I would like to point out here that uh there is a project which is being <./>supp assisted by UNFPA in the Ministry of Education that is family life education project with the aims uh which have been stated i e to improve or to uh bring awareness among the schoolchildren uh about uh their <./>b the biology and uh issues related to environment issues related to growing up and so on <#/>So we hope that when this project becomes operational in the country we should be able to have our children at least to <-/>to get  some information about growing up and uh family life education <#/><./>Anoth another project uh which is being sponsored by uh the United Nations Population Fund is uh family life education with the with <ea/>wazazi which a part-time Masai organisation uh whereby we are also trying to see how uh the parents can play their role to educate their sons and daughters in order for them to understand what it means to grow up uh in a way to improve communication between parents and children in the whole question of family life uh <#/>There’s another big project under the prime minister's office that is uh population and family life education uh based in Arusha but also operating in about six regions and again uh it is trying in a way to impart knowledge of about population and economic development through extension workers and also trying to reach the grass-roots through the extension workers
<$A> <#/><ea/>Mama Nsekella I have a small question here <#/>Now uh don't you think that it is possible to revive the old norms
<$C> <#/>Well uh this is why I brought it up uh because I knew it is possible <#/>We still have some very good norms within our society whereby uh we can be uh of help to those that are engaged in <./>t teaching and training young people so that it can be integrated within the society especially in adult education classes so that when the kids from school or they are on leave or holiday they can be looked after by the older generation and be taught some good behaviour as to how they should relate themselves to  opposite sex uh not only on matters relating to sex but to general good behaviour in society so that our children can continue to be responsible and growing to a responsible society later on uh <#/>We still think that uh such people that have been able to pass on uh good norms to  younger generation could be usefully uh be utilised by the school systems in the parents' committees in the parents’ association by passing on the good behaviour and good way of living in a community especially in the rural areas and in the urban areas
<$A> <#/><ea/>Ndugu Ulinyeluswa <./>Ten Tenyende there is uh this question of economic crisis uh among the young people be uh women or men  <#/>I How can you relate with the <-/>the current population problem 
<$D> <#/>Yeah these problems you have stated particularly youth unemployment problems uh are very much related to the population situation <#/>As you know we practise we have achieved universal primary education in Tanzania and as you're also aware that it’s a very small proportion which continues to go beyond uh primary school education about less than six per cent <#/>Now it means that among say five hundred thousand youths who complete class seven every year go into the labour market seeking jobs <#/>A labour market which is not capable to absorb them <#/>That by itself is a problem uh and that is why the government now <-_realise><+_realises> that it has to have some policy a population policy to tackle these problems uh <#/>A policy which also aims to streamline the existing population programmes like family planning uh programmes family life education programmes so that they are united together to solve this population problem <#/>You know most of these problems can't be solved by saying that uh you what you have to do is to family plan you see or take people back to the <-_>to the<-/> <-_>to the<-/> <-_>to the<-/> rural areas <#/>Actually these are most of them socio-economic problems and therefore sometimes solutions are in the social field <#/>And what we are saying that to make the whole thing complete to uh to <-/>to make development planning complete we have uh to consider all the problems together you see <#/>The numbers of people it's like water you know <#/>When you have too much water it's a problem <#/>We are always working on average <#/>Even fire itself it’s very useful you see <#/>If you don't make use it <./>o <./>o of it properly It's the same with numbers of people <#/>We are saying that we have to be growing in a manner which it helps  the nation's and individual's development in Tanzania and that is why the government also decided to come up with a population policy which we hope soon it will be adopted 
<$A> <#/>Dr Flavian Magari you as the national programme officer in the United Nations Population Fund uh maybe <./>w we would like to know uh what actually what is specifically is being done by your organisation on this question of interelations of population and family planning problems 
<$B> <#/>Most parents <./>esp particularly in the rural areas favour to have  large families <#/>One for one for one reason that uh they aren't quite sure whether all of them will survive <#/>That's one problem <#/>Of course the others uh another <-/>another reason people may have is security and maybe there could be others In any case when it comes to ensuring survival of the children uh our role is to ensure that we have good uh maternal and child health services mother and child health services uh <#/>A lot has been done in this country to expand primary health care services to the country in such a way that uh more than seventy per cent of the population is within walking distance from the near from the nearest health unit <#/>And therefore uh these clinics these dispensaries which provide uh maternal and child health care have a big role to play in order to ensure that first the mothers uh get good care while they're pregnant and when they deliver and <-/>and also the children that are born are immunised they're given uh all the care that is needed in order to make them survive <#/>Now if we can make these children survive then that reason for having a larger family uh becomes not uh a non-issue and therefore our organisation uh is working hand in hand with the Ministry of Health to <./>e <-/>to strengthen as well as to expand uh <./>mo mother and child health services and family planning services in the country in order to meet uh the demand for these services <#/>So that is one area where we are <-_>we are<-/> very much uh uh active in <#/>The other area of course as I say is this whole area of raising awareness about uh uh population issues about uh uh health issues uh family planning issues among the general population among leaders uh what government party and religious <-/>religious leaders <#/>So we have got to tackle the problem not just from uh one angle but from various <-_angle><+-angles> <#/>Raising awareness uh improving <./>info information to the people improving the services and we hope through all this people will be in a position to make uh uh rational decisions to have the families that they need the size of the families that they need that they can afford to keep healthy economically stable socially stable spiritually stable also 
<$A> <#/>Can you mention the problem of work in executing your functions on this particular area of population and family planning <#/>I mean how do you <./>g <-_>do you<-/> go about executing your uh your functions 
<$B> <#/>uh In fact our role really is to support the government <#/>Our projects are executed by the <-_>by the<-/> government <#/>So the <-/>the government comes up with a <-_>with a<-/> programme or a project which aims at improving let's say uh services in the clinics <./>mo mother and child health services and family planning services in the clinic and then we <-/>we look at the project we come to agreement as to uh the rationale of this <-_>of this<-/> uh of the proposal and our <-/>our organisation uh goes ahead if it if <-/>if <-/>if the project is approved go ahead to uh <-/>to get funds to the government uh to get the <-/>the activities done <#/>So that is the way we operate <#/>So <-/>so our projects are <./>mai <./>rea really operated by the government but we are partners
<$A> <#/><ea/>Ndugu Tenyende maybe for the benefit of our listeners I <-/>I propose that you give them you give us the national stand on that <./>iss that is you explain the population policy <#/>How is it 
<$D> <#/>A population policy aims at solving problems which come from  population growth rate and population characteristics <#/>One area is health for example <#/>We are talking  that mortality in Tanzania is very high compared to other countries <#/>Mortality is an aspect of population <#/>it's a component of population change and mortality we don’t <#/>it’s something which everybody uh fights and it is one of the enemies the nation has declared war  that is disease <#/>Now a population policy will emphasise and put more energy effort towards eradicating disease and reducing death in the nation <#/>We have already mentioned that uh the population growth rate is high both by historical standards in Tanzania itself and by world standards 
<$A> <#/>Maybe before going further
<$D> <#/>Yeah
<$A> <#/>I would like to know is there are any policy of that kind 
<$D> <#/>No there is no policy of that kind <#/>I think I made it clear right from the beginning that the government is now aware of these problems and therefore it is trying to come up with a policy which I think it may be adopted soon  <#/>We don't have a population <./>po right now <#/>I am only saying what a population policy can be doing 
<$A> <#/>Yeah so we should also say that the delay for having  such  policy is also one of the reasons of the problems now facing the areas of population
<$D> <#/>No I <./>wou I <-/>I wouldn't say so <#/>I wouldn't say so because population is a very sensitive area <#/>It is not only related to the number of the population <#/>It is also related to the quality of the population <#/>There are some population policies which aim for example to further certain characteristics of the population uh <#/>You would you wouldn't like to see in your population a certain type of people and therefore your population policy would be geared towards the removing those characteristics in the population that is also population and therefore we want to be sure that the population that we shall be coming with coming up with is really constructive population uh a policy 
</I
S1B030T
<I> <$A> <#/>Yuh and Mr Willy I am really thinking of uh a certain issue which is about faith and peace <#/>I think that these two issues are a bit related <#/>How do you find it 
<$B> <#/>What terms what did you say 
<$A> <#/>I <-/>I <-/>I <-/>I am introducing uh something about faith and peace
<$B> <#/>Yeah
<$A> <#/>The way I see it I think that faith has an influence on one's peace uh peace uh peace in <-/>in terms of uh calmness for example spiritually and all calmness maybe uh uh intellectually or calmness even uh the outlook of a person <#/>All these symbolise a <-/>a peaceful attitude of a person <#/>And I think that faith has  contribution to influence one's peace
<$B> <#/>To me I find it uh something that cannot be really <#/>You cannot conclude that this <-/>this and that uh have got any contribution to <-/>to <-/>to one's <#/>Well I don't know I don't know <#/>Maybe you explain this in deeply 
<$A> <#/>Yah uh in fact what I'm saying is uh that when one has faith in God <#/>Of course to be specific I I'm referring to religious faith that uh when one believes that indeed there is God and tries his best or tries her best to live according to uh God's uh <-/>God's wish <#/>In this way one finds himself or herself uh satisfactory because he <-/>he knows that uh he's living according to God's wishes
<$B> <#/>Maybe because you have to find something which will motivate somebody in order to believe that there is a God <#/>We for example there are some people who'd never <-/>never< />a agree whether there is a God or not <#/>So unless you motivate you <-/>you introduce somebody that this is God there is this there is something like that <#/>But it is not easy really to accept there is God because where is He <#/>People some people tend to ask you these things <#/>There is no God people are I mean people <-/>people always tend to think there is no God so when you say when you somebody believes in God then have peace <-/>peace in <-/>in <-/>in Him then there is this and there is I don't think that is 
<$A> <#/>Well yes what you are saying is true and it is very very unfortunate that part some people don't believe that there is God <#/>That is really true <#/>And I know <-_>I know<-/> some who uh really say that uh those who believe in God are conservative and they also say that going to pray is a waste of time uh but
<$B> <#/>You believe that is that God is <-/>is <-/>is around
<$A> <#/>Of course <#/>Yes I believe
<$B> <#/>What makes you
<$A> <#/>so and <-/>and
<$B> <#/>But what makes you believe that there is God even around
<$A> <#/>Well don't worry <#/>I'll just tell you <#/>I'll tell you about that I'm trying to go on you see uh <#/>It is it needs an experience because the starting point is a true belief that indeed there must be a source of everything and that source we <#/>Who can say uh it is the origin of everything is God <#/>God who said that everything should be there and that is a starting point <#/>Once you believe that there is God then you can see you can try to find out what does God want me to do and from that uh you can try to live according to the standard that God wants you to live for you see <#/>And when you achieve maybe a certain standard you become happy and you encounter a peaceful experience you see
<$B> <#/>I just want the initial what you say the initial the initial start which will make somebody believe that there's God <#/>So if we introduce that we introduce the initial what you call the initial stage towards God's will maybe that's fun <#/>Maybe you can make me understand what you mean by <-/>by initial <#/>Because I don't so far understand what do you mean when somebody gets an initial the initial stage that okay you have to tell somebody that God is like this God is like that then so <-/>so that somebody can understand that the initial stage and then from there then you start maybe it's preaching or whatever or what <#/>But so far that is the initial <#/>What power what <-/>what kind of power do one get  just from the initial start <#/>Because uh to get that power I think you need to you a kind of a training really
<$A> <#/>You see uh as I said before that the <-/>the starting point or the initial point is to believe that there is God
<$B> <#/>Right <#/>Now
<$A> <#/>Once you believe that there is God then you <-/>you pray to God
<$B> <#/>all right
<$A> <#/>asking God uh to enlighten you to know him more
<$B> <#/>So what will make me because I can't just <-/>just start to <-/>to pray unless somebody maybe have come  and tell me that you see you try to ask God for this and that so you'll <-/>you'll and then you'll get what you <-/>you have been asking <#/>But the initial position the initial what about I mean the initial uh which will make somebody I think you need to elaborate some kind of elaboration a bit 
<$A> <#/>Yes maybe it was 
<$B> <#/>because you see these things of faith when you talk of faith something I think is internal some it's <-/>it's a kind of power maybe which we don't know <-_>we don't know<-/> where really it <./>ori originates <#/>Where's the source of this power I think <#/>So when you talk <-/>talk of the initial I think that is just people's manipulation of language <#/>So that's what 
<$A> <#/><./>May <./>may maybe to enlighten you about that it is good to <-/>to take two approaches the scientific approach and the religious approach <#/>Uh on the scientific point of view  normally uh the knowledge obtained from that uh <-/>that uh <-/>that view depends on experiments but uh religiously we depend on faith <#/>And uh what does this word faith mean <#/>It means uh when I have <-_>when I <-/>I have<-/> faith in you it means that what you say I take it as truth <#/>Now here uh when we <-/>we naturally encounter uh problems uh uh especially critical problems it is there we realise that uh maybe God has deserted me even those who do not believe in God they can even say uh God help me <#/>It happens uh that is a <-/>a <-/>a natural a <-/>a <-/>a < />nat there is a natural uh experience which <-_enable<>+_enables> people sometimes to feel that they need God <#/>Now the only problem is how to strengthen this so that their faith becomes stronger <#/>And maybe I should <-_>I should<-/> introduce you to uh two forces which operate uh uh the within a person
<$B> <#/>Maybe just tell me 
<$A> <#/>there is Satan <-_>there is Satan<-/> <#/>there is God 
<$B> <#/>Yes of course
<$A> <#/>And normally Satan <-/>Satan does not want us to believe in God and <-/>and that's why we <-/>we tend to ignore on the side of God  because uh we <-/>we <-/>we are easily misled by those who uh believe otherwise
<$B> <#/>So you are telling me that when people have got some problems and then they pray and then they are answered their problems so it's when they realise that God is there <#/>And therefore if you don't have any problem you don't pray then God is not there <#/>That's what you do that's what you mean 
<$A> <#/>No no not really
<$B> <#/>Yah because you have said if <-/>if you have some problems then you pray <#/>You get it <#/>Yes you tell somebody you go and pray and that's why people with problems when it when they mean when they prefer saying Oh God help me God do this for me Now <#/>So you mean that if you live without problems in this world you live without the problems then God is not there because you haven't you haven't got an opportunity to call God to help you because you don't have problems <#/>So if you don't have problems there's no God <#/>If you have got if you've ever got some problems then you have to call God to assist you <#/>That's what you mean
<$A> <#/>Uh in fact there is a relationship in <-/>in that because uh there are people because they are rich they tend to ignore on the religious side 
<$B> <#/>No I know
<$A> <#/>There are people 
<$B> <#/>know I know a lot 
<$A> <#/>There are people 
<$B> <#/>I know a lot of people 
<$A> <#/>Yes I agree with you there are people who are rich and they believe in God and they pray hard but there are people who are rich also and they ignore  because uh I know one person who uh who despised people who were talking about God and uh trying to lament the way people are behaving nowadays and when they sympathised with the way he <-/>he told them he just neglected them and < />sai and said that his God is his computer you see <#/>And because he was well-off he thought that they are conservative and they are outdated you see <#/>And there are people who <-/>who say they will <-_>they will<-/> find God when they have problems but people who have a <-_>who have<-/> problems normally they try to find solutions for them <#/>If they said then they say maybe God can help me <#/>And there are people indeed who uh <-/>who encounter for example health problems and they go in different places uh to uh <-/>to get cure and yet uh <./>the <./>the they are not cured and when they uh <-/>they <-/>they <-/>they go to uh the believers they pray for them and even without medicine they get cured 
<$B> <#/>But you see 
<$A> <#/>and that that symbolises that uh God's power has uh helped them to become well
<$B> <#/>But you see there are people let me tell you there are people several <-/>several of them I know that that they have been sick for quite a number <-_>for quite a number<-/> of years <#/>They've been suffering <#/>They ve gone to the hospital <#/>They've gone to <-/>to the medicineman <#/>They have gone everywhere to the witchdoctors you see <#/>They haven't been cured their diseases  <#/>So you see what they say <#/>They say you see There is no God <#/>If God were there he could have helped me <#/>He's not here <#/>So I just wondering  when you say all these things to the question of God is there the question of faith the question of what  because there are those people with problems who have not been assisted even <-/>even if < />G you say if we say that God is there and can help people <#/>So many that I think you might have this experience too that we've got people for quite a number of years sick for quite a number praying with I mean with well their faith I don't know whether <-/>whether it's what you are talking about faith is whether one needs to pray hard or not but with their faith and then they are dying with their problems then they <-/>they ignore they tend to ignore that there is no God because if God was there if God or if Gods are there they could have helped us <#/>But you see if God is there and let me suffer with this for how for all these years <#/>How can I believe that there is God <#/>And if you say yes God is our Father he helps us <#/>Then he doesn't help you when you have some problems <#/>You suffer from <-/>from the < />u day you are born until the day the <-/>the <-/>the day you die <#/>So I don't know
<$A> <#/>You see we <-/>we can uh cite some people who uh <-/>who had problems and yet they were not uh their problems were not solved <#/>They uh prayed hard yet their problems were not solved <#/>And we can also cite some people who had problems and they were solved because they prayed hard uh It is not enough to pray hard <#/>One can pray hard and yet not believing  you see <#/>Uh you remember if we take an example one person who had a skin disease and he was told to go to wash himself in the River Jordan and he saw no reason why he should go into that particular river <#/>He saw that in his place <-_/>in his place<-/> there are many rivers and he can he always goes to wash himself in <-/>in those rivers and so he saw no reason of going to wash himself in the River Jordan <#/>But uh his advisers said well you have come to this person to seek help and the advice he has given you is to just to go to wash yourself into that river 
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S1B031T
<I> <$A> <#/>Welcome to our discussion programme known as Meeting of the Minds <#/>In this edition <ea/>gombe week is revisited and hence we join panellists who discussed Does pegging wildlife to the dollar enhance conservation <#/>Taking part are Mrs V D Mtefu from the Board of External Trade Mr B N Samaira from the Export Promotion Department Directorate of Economic Research and Policy Bank of Tanzania Mr John Boshe from World Wildlife Fund for Nature Dar es Salaam branch and Dr Kriske of Seluu Conservation Programme <#/>Mr B N Samaira starts the ball rolling
<$C> <#/>The subject of conservation is widely known to everybody and for Tanzania the question <-/>o of foreign exchange is also an open game <#/>So in approaching conservation strategies in Tanzania which sometimes to a great <./>ex to a great extent touches some areas of forest generation uh it is very difficult indeed uh <#/>Someone has discussed values of conservation vis-à-vis forex generation <#/>Now what I can say in this particular subject is conservation this is uh something to be maintained as for heritage for the coming generation and foreign exchange is also a crucial issue because this is the one which uh can put our current and coming generation to order  <#/>In this respect I would like to say that conservation should be done uh <-_>should be done<-/> but at the same time uh foreign exchange uh generation should be given its due uh <-_>its due<-/> say its due treatment <#/>What I mean in this area is the government or the Tanzanian society being in a very serious <-_economically><+_economic> uh position may overlook some issues which might erode our conservation because of hunting dollars <#/>It is here when we can overlook say the issue of say exporting uh timber or exporting some vital uh government <?/>trophies because of hunting dollars <#/>We can concentrate on these issues but at the same time actually we are we are eroding our national heritage we are eroding our <-/>our uh forests which in the future might pose a very good uh <-_>a very good<-/> uh reserve for our generation <#/>In this aspect therefore uh whenever we are <-_>we are<-/> approaching these two issues one should be cautious as not to take the advantage of the other to swallow the other one <#/>As the discussion goes I might be in a better position to address myself  <#/>Thank you very much
<$A> <#/>I think the most important message here passed by Mr Samaira to the audience is that we need foreign currency and we need to conserve our <-_resource><+_resources> but in order to do both we have to try <-_>to try<-/> to the best of our ability to strike uh a balance uh <#/>May I now call upon Mrs Mtefu from the Board of External Trade uh to highlight his idea her ideas on the Does pegging wildlife to the dollar enhance conservation
<$B> <#/>Thank you Mr Chairman <#/>With me  I could say that pegging <-/>pegging wildlife to the dollar sometimes maybe to some extent it <-/>it can also enhance < />con conservation <#/>It only depends on <-/>on the policies of the nation on that maybe if you are going to <-/>to earn the foreign exchange and then utilising it  to buy other things instead of concentrating on conserving the wildlife itself so on my part I could say that the government or the policy makers should have  a deliberate and co-ordinated <-_efforts><+-effort> to make sure that what is earned from the wildlife is utilised to conserve wildlife itself <#/>There's no need of <-/>of saying  that we are conserving wildlife to the to the extent that the country is going to lose foreign exchange because as far as wildlife is concerned it's not the heritage of Tanzanians only <#/>It's for the whole world <#/>And if it's for the whole world it means some countries are all countries have the right to come and maybe have a look at the at what we have in Tanzania <#/>And by doing so they are paying a fee and if we are earning a fee I would <-_>I would<-/> think that this type of earnings should be used to conserve wildlife <#/>Although the nation might be needing let's say dollars badly but conserving wildlife to my on my side I think it's a very important aspect otherwise there will come a time that it will only be in the books that Tanzania used <-_>Tanzania used<-/> to have such and such kind of things <#/>It will only be history and to some extent it will be forgotten <#/>So in order to let's say to make the world enjoy what we have we should conserve and if we have to conserve we have to use money to conserve and the money must come from the sector itself or from other government from other sources but to me  I think that we can we <-/>we <-/>we should have a < />co co-ordinated and deliberate <-_efforts><+_effort> <#/>And the second point is that we should also have proper training because those people who are dealing with let's say from the Bank of Tanzania or from the Board of External Trade People are only looking at the dollar aspect of it <#/>Nobody is aware of the conservation part of <-/>of the whole thing <#/>So there should be proper training to all those who are concerned in the sector maybe from not only from the wildlife sector but from those let's say all sectors which are inter-related in one way or another <#/>It's to such an extent that policies which are <-/>are being passed by the government are <-/>are well co-ordinated because you'll find the Department of Wildlife talking something about <./>con conversation conservation and then you'll find the Board of External Trade maybe promoting trade saying we have to export so we have to export <./>non non-traditional products and wildlife is one of them so you'll find that in some aspects there we have some contradictions one part is conserving and one part is trying to break the rule <#/>So proper training and education and maybe this co-ordination will enable us <+_to> conserve our wildlife <#/>That's all Mr Chairman <#/>Maybe I'll be able to contribute more
<$A> <#/>Thank you very much Mrs Mtefu <#/>In addition to uh emphasising the same uh concept of striking a compromise between the dollar and conservation Mrs Mtefu has brought in an additional idea and that is sometimes quite a lot of the problems arise in the industry and which give the impression that maybe the dollar has been over-emphasised <#/>These problems arise because of some form of communication breakdown so she's suggesting in the industry that there should be some form of education or training or a mechanism of two-way communication between the <./>cons conservationist on one side and the bankers and the people from the external trade uh <#/>Having said that I would like to thank Mrs Mtefu and then call upon uh Mr Boshe <#/>Mr Boshe is a professional teacher and he has indicated to want  to stop to uh to deliver what he has to us while standing up and I have no objection to his uh delivering his talk while he is standing up
<$D> <#/>The subject matter we are talking about is very interesting and very very important but I consider that it has been presented in a rather provoking way uh pegging wildlife to the dollar does pegging wildlife to the dollar enhance conservation <#/>This may be rather provoking to conservationists but I think this has been done purposely in order to uh to stimulate discussion <#/>Now my interpretation of the subject really is commercial versus subsistence use of wildlife <#/>That's the way I look at it and I think that's what we are trying to address here uh <#/>Before I start maybe I should try to define what wildlife is <#/>To me a simple and clear definition of wildlife really would be uh its definition in its <-/>ist broadest sense to be all living entity in a natural area and this <-_include><+_includes> plants animals and micro-organisms <#/>Now if we all agree to this definition we will see then there are several values of wildlife and this include  commercial value recreational educational aesthetic catchment value and also source of food <#/>These are the main values of wildlife if <-/>if we agree in this definition to start with <#/>Now we can see that most of these cannot have a dollar value attached to them <#/>It is very difficult to have monetary value attached to something like aesthetic value of wildlife or the catchment or the recreational or the<-/> educational <#/>Now coming back to the question of use of wildlife I believe that wildlife just like any other resource must contribute to the national economy and also to the well-being of the people <#/>Therefore commercial use of the resource is essential <#/>Such commercial use can either be consumptive or non-consumptive <#/>Turning to the question of subsistence hunting or <-/>or use of the wildlife it is now indisputable as I'm sure we will see during the afternoon session that all conservation efforts are likely to fail unless they have active and positive support of the local people <#/>I therefore believe that we conservationists and the responsible authorities have an obligation to demonstrate to the local people that conservation is for their interest  by providing direct and tangible benefits of conservation to the local people <#/>Truly we can add and say that commercial utilisation of wildlife will eventually provide the needed benefit to the people <#/>We get tourists in the country we collect a lot of forex and the money goes to the government and uh we assume that this money will filter down to the local people but in reality when it comes to wildlife issues and the money generated by the wildlife the trickle-down theory does not work <#/>It does not apply <#/>The money goes to the government <#/>the government uses the money for development projects but the people living next door to the wildlife do not really see the contribution of wildlife to their well-being <#/>As you will agree with me I'm sure wildlife <-_occur><+_occurs> in land which <-_belong><+_belongs> to people <#/>Let us take the northern part of the country for example uh <#/>We have some of the most outstanding wildlife areas in the Arusha region and in Masai landThis land<-_belong><+_belongs> to the Masais traditionally and they have been there from time immemorial <#/>Now this wildlife is there because the form of land use <./>practise practised by the Masai is compatible conservation <#/>Now things are changing <#/>Human population is increasing <#/>Human needs are increasing <#/> Lifestyle of the Masai is changing as well from pastoralists to start producing < />ag uh uh agricultural goods <#/>Now cultivating the land I am sure some of you would agree with me is not a compatible form of land use with wildlife conservation <#/>Now if we try to prevent the Masais for example from cultivating the land so that wildlife can survive then we have an obligation to make sure that the Masais get their basic needs <#/>If you look at uh the Chagga people for example in  northern part of the country they have pieces of land which they have inherited from their forefathers <#/>This piece of land  they grow banana as their food crop and coffee as a cash crop and they depend entirely on this small piece of land <#/>Now the Masais on the other hand have this land which <-_belong><+_belongs> to them <#/>There is wildlife there <#/>They cannot cultivate the land and grow food crop or cash crop  <#/>So their cash crop really would be the wildlife on their land but then there isn't a mechanism which can provide direct income from wildlife to the Masai people <#/>So what I'm trying to drive at here is in addition to commercial utilisation of wildlife where we get some money forex for example here is also in need to uh support subsistence utilisation of wildlife for the purpose of providing the needed uh uh the basic needs for these people living next door to wildlife <#/>Now in conclusion Mr Chairman I would like to say that wildlife resource has a major role to play in both the national economy and in serving as a source of food to people especially to those communities living in and around conservation areas <#/>This therefore calls for both commercial and subsistence use of the resource <#/>Our main concern here though is the magnitude and extent of the use of this resource whether commercial or subsistence
</I>
S1B032T
<I> <$A> <#/>In December nineteen eighty-five the United Nations General Assembly created the fifth of December as International Volunteer Day <#/>It is a day which is to be celebrated by governments groups and individuals <#/>It is a day which is really set aside to pay tribute to all volunteers international volunteers as well as national volunteers <#/>We pay tribute to them for the good and sacrificial work they have been doing irrespective of their ages irrespective of their communities <#/>We pray we pay tribute to them for the really hard work that they've been putting in to improve the lot of mankind <#/>It is really a day which is significant for all volunteer spirit  and the first celebration took place in nineteen eighty-six <#/>Since then it has been celebrated all over the world and here in Tanzania the first celebration took place in nineteen eighty-seven which was very <-_low-keyed><+_low-key> but from nineteen eighty-eight it really took up  in a very stylish manner and this year I believe it will be even more significant <#/>Maybe my colleagues would like to contribute
<$B> <#/>Yeah Mr Mazuki would you like to contribute some more ideas as maybe to how Tanzania has participated in making International Volunteer Day significant
<$C> <#/>Thank you Edda <#/>Maybe one point which uh I would like <-/>like to say how  Tanzania has participated is that the Ministry of Labour and Youth Development in collaboration with the DDS programme uh we have an exchange programme whereby we do receive  DDS field workers from member countries in Africa and when they come here in Tanzania we post them into uh groups in rural areas where the young people are working together So these field workers are supposed to work with the youth groups in trying to raise their standard of living in the form of <-_organise><+_organising> some various projects uh related to agricultural <-_project><+_projects> uh animal husbandry and so on <#/>And these field workers are supposed to stay for two years working with the group whereby after two years they can either uh extend their <-/>their contract and stay for another two years or they can terminate and then go back and receive others And in this way actually we have seen quite a lot of the contribution made by this volunteer programme through the DDS programme
<$B> <#/>Thank you Mazuki before you leave the chair maybe you could tell us the full name of DDS
<$C> <#/>Uh DDS uh in full name means Domestic Development Service uh which really connotes that uh the volunteers have got to work at the grassroot level giving service to the communities at the village level
<$B> <#/>Thank you Mr Mazuki <#/>Uh Mr Bwatei said that the day was inaugurated in nineteen eighty-five but it was not until nineteen eighty-eight that it <./>wa was celebrated in a big way in Tanzania <#/>Now non-governmental organisations being what they are in working with the grassroot level men and women uh would you think Mr Halid Mika there is a way that we could involve the rural women and men and perhaps even the youth to participate in volunteering services
<$D> <#/>Yeah uh thank you Edda <#/>I think I've something to add more  about the IVD itself As far as I know that it creates the <-/>the awareness to the people  uh so that they could understand well the importance of the IVD uh also to understand what are the objects <./>o objectives of IVD uh in  case of Tanzania and uh thirdly to understand how the people are they going to be involved  in the voluntary services and whom are they <./>expect uh expected to volunteer <#/>To my opinion  uh awareness uh should accompany with  the importance of using uh mass media uh both in printing and the electronic mass media is important too in helping to draw the awareness of the people to understand what is the IVD <#/>This can be implemented by arranging features articles interviews in radio services as we are doing now uh in TV programmes distribution of handouts and leaflets as well as uh erecting posters educating the people to understand what IVD is and what are they supposed to do <#/>Therefore uh proper communication between mass media and uh national committee need to <-/>to be maintained <#/>Uh maybe even to <-/>to co-opt one member from mass media to the IVD national committee <#/>Secondly IVD <-_help><+_helps> also to <-/>to stimulate the people to involve uh <-/themself> themselves in voluntary work <#/>Such this day  can bring together different categories of people as you asked me that women involving women and youth uh to <-/>to engage in voluntary work service such as environmental uh cleaning especially in the urban areas uh tree planting in <-/deforestated> areas <#/>In another way the IVD <-_help><+_helps> to <-/>to <-/>to mobilise the people in self-reliance activities <#/>Uh this will be discussed later I think so with my colleagues here <#/>But what I want to say here is IVD has helped to maintain the spirit of volunteerism in the country <#/>For example in Dar es Salaam alone uh the CCN youth organisation <?/>VIJANA uh have come up with their traditional style that every month they mobilize themselves and uh take part in  city cleaning campaign which was launched by themselves last year <#/>This is an example which <-_show><+_shows> that youth are in the forefront taking part on  volunteer work without waiting until the IVD celebrations <#/>So you see uh they have already been stimulated and they <-/>they are continuing these such this spirit  of volunteering
<$B> <#/>Thank you uh <#/>In as far as uh your explanation goes you talk about mass media and you mentioned some of the conventional media <#/>But maybe we should draw some experience from our colleague here Mr Bwatei as to how other forms of media have been used successfully to arouse interest and awareness amongst grassroot uh level people
<$A> <#/>Well for specifically here in Tanzania what we've been doing for the past two years or so is that as far as media is concerned we begin with the press release which is usually published a day before the media event itself <#/>That is the day before fifth December and then on the fifth of December itself we come out with a feature article a big article supported with uh one or two pictures really field level activity and we have tried also to get radio discussion for  what we are doing now which last year for one reason or the other it could not come on <#/>But I’m extremely happy that this year we’ve been able to come out with this radio discussion <#/>So we believe many people will get to know about the IVD either through the newspaper or through this radio discussion <#/>And of course this will be supported by some other field activities which will be undertaken which we have planned <#/>And the publicity aspect of these activities will also help a lot of people you know to understand and even just get to know that there is a day called IVD and to us this is very significant <#/>If I may add experience has shown that any time we celebrate the IVD many many Tanzanians flood the office of UNDP trying to offer their services as volunteers in some other countries <#/>And we try to recruit people of all professions accountants doctors nurses uh economists metalworkers woodworkers and so on <#/>And to me it is significant because by then we try to promote that public awareness to see what Tanzanians could also contribute by way of volunteerism
<$B> <#/>Anything to add Mr Mazuki
<$C> <#/>Maybe Edda what I need to add here is uh maybe the celebrations which took part last year that uh <#/>Actually what we did uh during the first week of December <#/>We organised quite a few programmes which were undertaken around Dar es Salaam <#/>For instance we had uh clean-up at the Magomeni market and also we had some clean-up for around Muhambili uh hospital and also we had some clean-up along the <-/>the shores <#/>And the climax of this celebration uh we had some seminar whereby some speeches were given and discussions which  uh all the volunteers in Tanzania from all over the <-/>the country came to Dar es Salaam and discussed the importance of this uh International Volunteer Day <#/>And right now what we are planning to do is that maybe instead of organising these celebrations in Dar es Salaam we are planning to decentralize so that within the regions they can organise themselves and plan what activities can be undertaken through uh the Volunteer Day <#/>And I think this is what we planning in the future uh to do
<$B> <#/>Thank you Mr Mazuki uh <#/>Halid what do you think non-governmental organisations could do to make this spirit of volunteerism linger on throughout the year and not remain just as a day of the fifth of December from uh one year to another
<$D> <#/>Briefly I could say that we <./>we have an action programme of which  we are going to involve all uh NGOs in the country so that they could do take part 
<$B> <#/>Thank you Mika <#/>Uh Mr Bwatei is there a way that UA uh UNDP will make a follow-up of all the projects and plans that will have been uh drafted so that they are ongoing from year to year and also to keep the interest of those who like volunteering to go on and on 
<$A> <#/>Okay well uh UNDP has some contribution to make but then I would like to take the opportunity to correct <-_some><+_the> impression that the day or the IVD is not for UNDP <#/>It is a day set aside for all volunteers both international and national <#/>Of course UNDP comes in as a catalyst you know to set certain things in motion <#/>But here in Tanzania the national focal point for IVD celebration is the Ministry of Labour and Youth uh <-/>Youth Development ‘cause now they are working hand in hand with the with TANGO so very soon TANGO will also be taking an active role in the celebration <#/>The reason why UNDP does not want to give that impression is that people would begin to say that Oh the day is for UN you know which is not the case <#/>It is for the Boy Scouts the Red Cross the Girl Guides YMCA and what have you <#/>It so it also includes the bilateral volunteers like the US Peace Corps the German volunteers the Swedish volunteers the Finnish and so on <#/>So that has a global perspective and that is why UNDP plays a role but the day itself is not for UNDP <#/>But as you mentioned we try to work in conjunction with the ministry and with all the parties <#/>You know it’s a united effort <#/>It’s a united effort so that by that we could sustain the spirit of volunteerism in all <-_aspect><+_aspects> of our development
<$B> <#/><-/>Mhm Perhaps an argument would come about like in the case of Tanzania where there is  development levy out of every Tanzanian be he a worker or peasant <#/>And there <-/>there is this spirit of volunteerism then someone could say what is my money doing if there are youth every fifth of December coming to clean up the uh <./>the streets or the hospitals or whatever uh <#/>Can you give an explanation to this uh argument Mr Mazuki
<$C> <#/>Thank you Edda <#/>I think what we need to draw here is the meaning of volunteerism <#/>I think this is uh very important <#/>It is important in the sense that uh development is actually brought about by the people themselves and that is when uh people understand I think what is now required is to raise the awareness <#/>I think that uh Mr 
<$A> <#/>Halid
<$C> <#/>Halid had already mentioned about raising the awareness that if people understand that development comes by themselves that they need to contribute they need to put in effort <#/>Then when people pay development levy is to me what I understand is just a token because for instance if you take the amount which is paid as development levy it’s really very little if you can put it or you translate it in the form of the kind of uh work which it can produce <#/>But if people understand that on top of the development levy still they are required to commit themselves to such activities which can bring about social and economic development that’s where voluntarism comes in <#/>That here is someone who understand that it is my <./>refson responsibility and it’s my call it’s my commitment to put my service to the development of the <-/>the country to the development of the society
</I>
S1B033T
<I> <$A> <#/>Nizar Visram Institute of Finance Management Lecturer in Development Studies had this question 
<$B> <#/>Uh I was uh a bit surprised when uh <-_sometimes><+_some time> back your chairman Yasser Arafat announced that uh you Palestinians now recognise Israel 
<$C> <#/><-/>mhm
<$B> <#/>And I was even <-/>even more surprised that uh Yasser Arafat even said that uh the Palestinians are suspending arms struggle that the arms struggle now is <foreign/>kaduuk is finished <#/>Maybe you hoped <-_>maybe you hoped<-/> that by doing that you are really you know uh you wanted support from America maybe America would support the International Peace Conference <#/>Maybe Israel also would be prepared to sit at the table and talk to PLO about peace <#/>But that didn't happen
<$C> <#/><-/>mhm
<$B> <#/>So far after all that time has gone after you recognised PL uh Israel <O/> suspended arms to America has not really recognized PLO and they are not prepared to talk to PLO <#/>Neither is Israel <#/>What do you think has been achieved by the overtures of the PLO <#/>And if you think that it has failed if it was a wrong step that you took now what are you intending to do after that 
<$C> <#/>Yah 
<$B> <#/>About that <#/>Thank you 
<$C> <#/>Thank you very much brother <#/>Actually this is a very tough question <#/>We ourselves Palestinians are trying to uh to answer it by our own our way <#/>Why <#/>Because as you said exactly we were or some of us or even in the Arab countries some of the Arab regimes are sometimes were telling us that well because of your policy because you want to liberate all Palestine and this is not realistic <#/>Our friends even in Soviet Union they say well this is not the policy <#/>You should be uh you know seeing the facts <#/>There is a new generation now in Israel <#/>And it is a de facto country since forty-five years  <#/>And the old policies are not serving <#/>Actually our policies are very clear right from the very beginning <#/>Nineteen sixty eight is the date when we decided to build a secular democratic state of Palestine <#/>What do we mean by that <#/>Both Jews Moslems Christians regardless of religion would establish  and there is enough room for everybody <#/>The Israelis consider this policy as very destructive to Israel <#/>In nineteen seventy-four we had endorsed in our resolution of the PNC to have two states <#/>And to have our independent state over any territory which is going to be released by Israel after the convening of the International Peace Conference which was supposed to be held in nineteen seventy-four by the way <#/>And still it's not convened <#/>So regarding our policy it came <-_>it came<-/> up to the corner  <#/>What we had been asked for had been fulfilled from our part <#/>And we are doing it really not because we want to satisfy the international public opinion <#/>No because we like really to achieve peace <#/>We are people who are striving for peace <#/>Don't think that war is <-/>is a good thing <#/>I mean to <-/>to be in war it means to die <#/>And I don't think that there is something valuable than  the life itself <#/>How about the life of the people themselves and their destiny <#/>How much you can live  without knowing where to build a house and settle <#/>This is the tragedy of the Palestinian people <#/>It is not the matter of food and <-/>and <-/>and <-/>and uh and to survive only <#/>There is what is called belonging <#/>Where you belong to  <#/>And each time when you go and write an <-/>an an any passport card all the time it is difficult for the Palestinian to say where is his residence <#/>Sometimes I write Tanzania <#/>Sometimes I don't know I write although I have a place where I belong to  I want to be back to it <#/>Even if I don't go and reside there <#/>But still I belong to that place <#/>So you see because of this dream we are giving so much time for the peace <#/>So much room for the peace <#/>But at the same time we are not dreaming because we know the enemy what's also doing <#/>Maybe it is undiscovered for the international public opinion <#/>But those Palestinians who are there whom you have seen now in the video they know exactly what is Israel and what Israel is planning for them Israel is planning to replace them all by the new Jews coming from abroad <#/>They know it <#/>This is why they are resisting on the struggle <#/>But the struggle is not only armed <#/>What do you call these stones <#/>Isn't it an armed struggle <#/>Or it should be only with guns <#/>This is only a means <#/>This is an armed struggle when you have the kid the woman and everybody is involved <#/>Do you want a struggle which is much better than this one a peaceful one very innocent one which <O/> enough to be <O/>with terrorism <#/>This is the terrorism the organised terrorism which <-_use><+_uses> all means of terrorism <#/>The well organised terrorism which is backed by a well organised state called the United States <#/>So we have to struggle in both politics diplomacy and also in the land <#/>This is exactly what we are doing and we don't have any dreams and we know that this conflict is going to be resolved in our right but it needs a lot of factors also to play its role <#/>The regional role is not playing yet <#/>It has its own difficulties economic difficulties <#/>There are so many shortages around us and our <-/>our brothers <#/>So many conflicts here and there also are disabling the balance of forces in the area which is not bringing peace <#/>But from our part I think our duty is to continue and not to wait for these factors and we have to keep the blood bleeding all the time so that the issue would remain alive in the minds and in the hearts of our Arab nation as well as around the world as a whole <#/>I think it is an international commitment and it is an international responsibility after all <#/>Those who had voted to create such a state have now to check what kind of resolution they had adopted in nineteen forty <./>se seven <#/>They aimed to secure a little bit of Jews who had been I mean succeeded to survive from the <-_>from the<-/> Second World War but the cost was another trouble for an all entire people and <-/uninstability> in an area which is very rich of interest for everybody <#/>They have now to check and see whether this is just or not and they have also to play their role <#/>I think it is not only our duty as the Palestinian people <#/>It is a duty of so many forces around the world <#/>And it is an international uh uh uh responsibility after all <#/>So we are going to continue my brother
<$B> <#/>In your response to my earlier question you said that the United Nations headquarters has got copies of the nineteen forty-seven agreement 
<$C> <#/>yah
<$B> <#/>which demarcated how the Palestine state should be and what borders the state should have I have two questions <#/>One How do the western countries like <-/>like or the United States you know Britain and France how do they want to solve the <-/>the Palestinian problem Will they have a plan of solving the <-/>the problem because I have not heard <-/>heard about it I know that there is they do send the foreign ministers to Damascus to Baghdad to other Arab countries to Cairo but I have not <-_>I have not<-/> seen a comprehensive plan for solving the Palestinian problem from the western point of view <#/>Secondly the presence of the western troops in <-/>in the Middle East now is it so much to <-_>is it so much<-/> a question of oil or the interest for oil or <-/>or is there a plan to say to <-/>to dislodge the Palestinian problem from world prominence 
<$C> <#/>Uh I have the opinion that the opinion inside the West generally what is called the West had developed rapidly <#/>It is true that uh since nineteen forty-eight the positions in so many western countries European United States and so on <-_was><+_were> uh let's say uh very <?/>alignated with Israel stands where there is no Palestinian state uh where I do not know what I mean so many approaches which do not meet even with a minimum of the Palestinian rights <#/>But now it is not so <#/>This had developed and I have to tell you frankly as you can see I mean the whole European community almost all are recognising the rights of self-determination of the Palestinian people <#/>This had been declared in Venice in Madrid France almost all European I mean and even from the Parliament and on the official level I should tell you although we are not recognised in so many European states as embassies but de facto we are embassies there and they deal with us so uh <#/>Well in some of these countries especially the Mediterranean ones say the I mean the French position the Italian position the Greek position as well as the Spanish <#/>Go to Scandinavia where the Swedish position is so much advancing the Austrian one <#/>I don't want to name the whole list but I can tell you that these positions are so much clearer nowadays <#/>And they are in support for a resolution of the conflict on the basis of realising our national rights and mainly the right for self-determination which could lead to an independent state as a matter of fact <#/>And they recognise also PLO as the sole legitimate representative of our people which means that it is a full party <#/>Now who is left as a matter of fact if we have to be sincere to the truth it is the American position which is still delaying the train to move to its station <#/>Because as you have seen also the idea and the resolution to convene the International Peace Conference had been agreed upon almost from all countries around the world <#/>The United States also had shown some interest in the idea <#/>But they have different approaches actually towards solution of regional conflicts <#/>That you know yourself <#/>That they want to be the god-father of any solution themselves not the international legality <#/>So this is the way they had done it in various regions and they want to be the sponsor for the peace as if that  the peace has got a father <#/>The father of peace should be the United Nation which everybody now wants it  to play its role <#/>But when it goes to the Palestinian problem the United States no <#/>They don't want to involve the United Nations <#/>They veto a resolution to send a fact-finding mission on behalf of the Security Council while they can get thin resolutions from the Security Council in one month <#/>So they are very selective in using the international legality because they want also their interests to be served by themselves <#/>And I tell you the oil the barrel of <./>oi of oil which they like now to sit on later if they succeeded to do so they are going to bargain both Japan the European Community and so many powers how much they should pay for that barrel <#/>This is why they don't like to involve the United Nation that much in our issue because also they want to have a different approach in solving these issues the way it goes in their interest not the ways where the just lies <#/>This is why we are pushing to that direction <#/>We don't say that we want peace which could be done by the United States <#/>No <#/>We stress upon  the need to have the security council members along with all parties <./>incl including the PLO because we are a full party where the United Nation is the sponsor <#/>Not the United States is the sponsor <#/>This is how we see the approach towards a solution of our uh issue <#/>That is what the Americans do not like to see <#/>They had proposed the self-rule and sometimes they talk about well <#/>Baker should come and see what are the possibilities <#/>Schulz should do so and so and the and sometimes they had even within the opening of dialogue with the PLO
</I>