<&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies <&>Victoria University of Wellington <&>side one <&>0:08 just the way things are <&>0:09 <&>section in maori not transcribed <&>0:16 i hope you had a good flight down in in the rough weather and into the southerly wind from tamaki makaurau it's a pleasure to welcome you on to te upoko o te ika we could have done this er off air seeing as we were running late this morning but no what the heck we very rarely get you away from your schedule and er live on te upoko o te ika we got coming up on television so it's my pleasure to welcome you to te upoko this morning nau mai haere mai tena koe piripi ripeka what's a good television programme what's your what's your favourite of have you seen er have you seen anything that's inspired you in maori television programming lately um i think that some of the er some <&>1:00 of the um some parts of er um deserve i think some merit some parts of it like all other television programmes probably er have got a way to go before inhales they get um a rating above five in my books but um i think it brings me pleasure it it gives pleasure to see um the kind of er programming that they've come up with in the schedule swallows on sunday mornings given inhales i suppose the er limited amount of resources and access that we do have at the moment ripeka um i didn't introduce you with your title you're now with the iwi consultancy yes i have a consultancy of my own and i still do some work in broadcasting for television new zealand and for the iwi television trust and your title in television new zealand was <{><[>personal assistant <[>i was i was the er cultural and planning assistant to the chief executive of t v n z for <&>2:00 inhales four years and er i'm still retained on a stringer basis as a consultant to the chief executive and also to the director of television services to brent harman kia ora ripeka well inhales er we've jumped away from just what we opened on which is good television programmes let's stay with it for a minute now you mentioned the sunday morning ones mhm they've discovered humour <{><[>do you think <[>well <.>they they've discovered humour coughs <.>an in a fashion um i believe that er one of the biggest um i suppose restrictions on on maori television is that it is to still to some extent er in terms of the format confined to the television studio and er my own personal belief anyway is that some of the greatest humour occurs in its natural environment in the marae and um swallows i think in all the <.>telev maori television proposals that have been er promulgated over <&>3:00 the years that um recognition of of where maori activity takes place is er one of the key elements and obviously going to be one of the key elements to i suppose er a more developed form of maori television and in that respect i think that <.>the the humour content or the comic content if it can be termed that of and er well even to an extent sometimes i suppose even encapsulates it in er the odd item but um i think that there's always going to be a limitation um on maori television and its development so long as it's it's confined to the artificial marae environment swallows the sooner we're able to get maori television out to where maori activity is taking place in the community i think then we'll begin to start seeing the diversity in in the maori community rather than the kind of i don't know the the show case models i mean the show case models <&>4:00 and that are fine for putting a positive reflection up to the world but i think the true diversity in <.>the and the i suppose the tapestry of our own culture will only be revealed once we take the cameras out of the restrictions of the studio and we start putting them into er communities into places where maori activity is taking place ripeka we had whatarangi in here just before you and er we're in a cycle now where after the nineteen eighties these treaty the treaty court case for good or for bad i guess has has perhaps raised our hopes a little bit although <.>temp we're tempered very much with the the response of the crown that the economic situation is that er we can't build expensive things like maori television mhm should we be getting our hopes up what do you think um one um reading through the judgement as i as i did before i came down this morning um and i've read it on a number of times um i think <&>5:00 it was quite clear in in the er high court judge's mind that um there has been a lot said and very little done in fact about maori television er one could also say the same to an extent about maori radio but i think it's quite clear or it was quite clear to me from er from the judgement er recently regarding the broadcasting assets case that there <.>r still remains a lot more to be done in terms of maori television inhales now if one is to take into account consistently the economic situation swallows then that is clearly one of the practical i suppose er voc things which the judge envisaged should be taken into account but i think from the crown's point of view if it is to be used eternally as the excuse for not doing anything then in the final analysis the court's going to look back at that and say well there is only so long that one can use <&>6:00 economic restrictions to say that the crown was unable to do something about maori television i believe that er the crown CAN er despite the harsh economic the macro economic situation that prevails at the moment that there is possibility for er looking at the existing level of resources in the whole broadcasting area and restructuring and retargeting some of those resources in order to begin meeting some of the maori television objectives it's not quite simply an argument of swallows you know we've got a huge deficit for the country um to be looking at and that should be the priority to <.>re reduce that and that we can't afford to go spending money on <.>ex expensive or even rather inexpensive maori television proposals we should be really looking at where there are resources targeted already and er whether or not we can refocus and retarget those resources voc do we need a new channel or could we do <&>7:00 it er by having an increase of programmes like on t v one um i think we need to go back one step further piripi um and i think that voc one of the strengths er in terms of looking at this er er in terms of political responsibility at the moment one of the strengths er in the maori court at the moment is obviously the high court decision and that decision is quite clear about television it's quite clear in my mind anyway as to er what judge mcgechan um er decided upon on that case and i think that er to begin with it is envisaged that um and it is taken and accepted in the judgement that a secure place to er quote i suppose a vogue um um phrase in in the er in the judgement it is taken and accepted that um there should be er security for maori language and culture in television i <&>8:00 think the judgement canvassed a number of means by which exposure of the maori language and culture could be achieved but i think it leaves it largely up to the parties it does not stray beyond i suppose its brief and leaves it still up to the parties to negotiate i suppose a settlement that can be achieved on an incremental basis inhales tut i believe that maori television can and and will become a reality over <.>ti over a time over a period of time um and i think that one of the things that is standing in the way of of progress on discussions between er between the crown and and maori essentially and let's be explicit about the crown between the minister of broadcasting and maori is um the issue of whether or not the crown does want er to negotiate tut a um er to negotiate a solution <&>9:00 to this issue i mean clears throat if one is to presume that a a solution is in sight and that maori television is possible then <.>y you've got to presume there's some will on the part of the parties er to go down the road of <.>disi discussion and to reach <&>pronounced reek a solution that er might involve a bit of give and take on either part at the end of the day but no doubt it's <.>solu a solution at the end of it swallows so i'd say first of all that we need to clear er the air or that er the crown and and the minister of broadcasting needs to er indicate that there is an intention um on the part of the crown and er whom he acts on behalf of to negotiate um a series and and a strategy that will develop maori television over a period of time um i've heard <.>n all sorts of er clears throat talk about er what might be a good solution what might <.>be might not be a good solution um i think it would be <&>10:00 true to say of this issue as of any other treaty issue that um it's not a one stop shop that er maori television doesn't just involve or in terms of the solution swallows to this current claim that maori television doesn't just involve the establishment of a maori television channel whatever that channel is i think it it it er involves as is indicated in in the decision a series of incremental steps that may um take into account the extent <.>or of resources er the extent of er commitment or the extent of guarantees that there are in place at the moment and building upon those that it's quite clear that there needs to be there is a base in the industry at the moment that needs to be built upon but i think the first premise is the minister has to indicate that there is a commitment to find a solution to find settlement and i must say in all honesty that <&>11:00 that indication has not been given it <.>i it was not given despite the several opportunities before this case even went to litigation tut and er i don't think that that <.>is intention has been flagged in the <.>re in the er most recent document from the minister so i've put the ball fairly and squarely back in his court to indicate you know <{><[>does he want to er negotiate some sort of outcome or not <[>mm yes <.>ri er ripeka i'd like to ask you about your own experience er on one or two fronts firstly the experience in t v n z you were there alongside julian mounter <{1><[1>the new director general a key period <{2><[2>those those four years powerful people on the board good advocates like tipene oregan <{3><[3>and others what's the progress you're looking back on things like you know the new t v department <[1>mhm <[2>mhm <[3>mhm mhm kimihia scheme um i think on reflection in the four years that i worked for television new zealand fulltime um er that i went into the organisation with some clear objectives of my own um that had <&>12:00 been shaped and i suppose refined too to some extent by by julian and the wishes that he had in terms of developing maori television i think we were um both very keen about two or three major um i suppose major thrusts <.>that <.>th and major objectives that we wanted to achieve in a very short period of time did you manage to get some <{><[>clearances and promises and a timetable <[>clears throat um what from television new zealand in the time that i was there yeah in the time that i was there the the three objectives i think that i did or two objectives two or three objectives that i did achieve was one to increase the er programming output and it did increase over those years albeit in and and when you measure it up in terms of how fast and how rapid the change and how rapid and and er how much um i suppose nonmaori programming <&>13:00 increased at times er against overseas programming especially the increase in maori production would have still paled somewhat into not so much into oblivion but pales er a second and very poor third alongside the increases in other types of programming tut nevertheless there was an increase in in maori programme over that period i think there was also a significant increase in the skill level within the industry and i'm i contributed a great effort to that in terms of the kimihia programme and that programme still boasts a retention rate of some seventy percent in the industry after <.>fo er still retained in the industry goodness me that's <{><[>high <[>after four years and i think it <.>d <.>it <.>it <.>des it's worthy of mention because tut on <.>an on a domestic it was one it was the biggest er broadcasting training programme ever embarked upon in new zealand and i would also um and run the risk of of contradiction say that it's probably one of the biggest if not the biggest indigenous broadcasting programme <&>14:00 ever embarked upon in the world as well would i be right in saying that that retention figure has come up again some who went out after the one year have come back into television <{><[>and have got jobs <[>voc er some of them have have come in and out er on a <.>w one off production basis some of them have gone to t v three some of er them have been engaged in independent production houses some of them have started independent production houses of their own so i think from that kind of kernel of of development of seed of development that a lot has happened from it however we must also put it back into context in terms of the rate at which er you know the nonmaori achievement pakeha achievement has been in terms of acquisition of skills in the industry so i think that always er one in in terms of looking at this whole issue globally one must always be tempered by um how bigger and brighter and better the opportunities have grown er for other people in the industry and er i think to an extent maori people not just in <&>15:00 kimihia but er in other programmes have been able to cash in on some of those opportunities but i think what maori broadcasters what i've always been conscious of from before i even went into television is that maori broadcasters are looking inhales i suppose to er play in the great big orchestra of maori television or radio together rather than as disparate pieces in a in a very big and er inhales and expanding and shrinking and expanding and shrinking er industry it is encouraging there's some young talent there you can <{1><[1>see the spread of it across the independent production houses the credits roll up on programmes like <{2><[2>lot of maori in there word dozens and dozens of maori people lot of them young <{3><[3>out there <.>y you'd be encouraged by that <[1>mm <[2>mm yes yes yes <[3>word oh i'm <.>a immensely encouraged by it but i think that what we need is inhales i mean it's almost as if like we need a second third fourth fifth and sixth offensive to ensure that <&>16:00 the the er i suppose the growth continues er we should have repeated the programme in the second and third year um we were fortunate i think that er with kimihia that at the end of the programme that was the <.>d exactly at the end of the programme was the time when t v n z downsized and became an s o e that's my next question what would you say to those that er ended kimihia with er slightly embittered view of t v n z that they went in as sort of kind of brown cannon fodder and then they didn't get a job there were one or two bitter <{><[>voices afterwards <[>inhales oh oh i think there's always going to be one or two embittered voices in any programme no matter how much one does to ensure that er or to try and retain a positive focus in that fort and um you know i mean individuals are entitled to their view i i i disagree i think that um there were some aspects of the programme that like any other programme could have required improvement but i think we were there to ensure that a critical mass of maori people were trained and brought <&>pronounced bought into <&>17:00 the industry and retained in the industry and i think in terms of those objectives being the principal objectives of the programme we achieved them er that we have got a larger retention rate but retention rates and bums on seats isn't about isn't what the programme was about it was there to ensure that um at the end of the day over a period of time that that those um <.>tha er those people that came into the industry would have an impact upon what the industry produced and er i think that the examples that you've just quoted of of people inhales working er and er working in directing and producing in programmes and that um is is probably proof of the pudding is that they've gone to the production end of the scale made their impact there and they need now to progress even further <&>pronounced firster further <&>17:40