<&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies <&>Victoria University of Wellington <&>side one <&>0:14 er no reira mike can you voc um first of all just give us some background on <,> what is kura kaupapa and the reasons <,> why kura kaupapa was established mm inhales kura kaupapa maori if we look at it from a <.>particul um a legislative point of view exists in the legislation um in the <.>e education amendment act in nineteen eighty nine um and that merely voc states that kura kaupapa maori is an education option um where the principal language of instruction is maori um clears throat and um <,> that's basically er what constitutes it under legislation however the proponents of kura kaupapa maori would um suggest <&>1:00 that it's <.>a it's a lot more than just um being educated in maori it's not a matter of just translating um a <.>maor <.>a a pakeha curriculum into maori language and so there's <.>a a certain ethos wairua um and <.>a a pedagogy that voc kura kaupapa maori proponents follow although um each kura kaupapa maori has its own kaupapa if you like and um <,> voc er i don't um claim to be an expert on everybody else's philosophy um i'm involved with a kura kaupapa maori we have a particular philosophy that um suits us and our um a philosophy <.>tha <.>a about <.>w <.>what what we believe maori education is some of it is or most of it is very similar to the other kura kaupapa maori but this is a independent um philosophy that we've developed <&>2:00 um in our own local community the core <.>o obviously is maori language kura kaupapa maori are schools where maori is the medium of instruction in our situation it is the medium of instruction in the kura for everything all the time um with no exceptions um that doesn't mean to say that the children don't learn english but the children learn english outside of the school and they learn it by learn it from people who inhales um are not the normal teachers in the school tut so they actually go to classes before school or after school to learn english mm so in the school the whole um schooling environment is a maori environment where maori is the medium of instruction and OUR form of maori <,> pedagogy i suppose is um is focused on <,,> ae now you were telling us in our <&>3:00 class on monday that um you've done some research into <,> some of the i don't know whether problems is quite the right word but some of the hiccups shall we say in language development um within <,> the kura kaupapa that you are <{1><[1>involved in um <,> would you like to just discuss one or two of those things <{2><[2>now <[1>mm <[2>mm inhales one of the major problems um tut er <.>i is firstly looking at the context in which the the kura exists um i mean i live in masterton which was an area where maori language died fairly early um very few kaumatua are fluent at the language and <,> nobody of my generation who lives in wairarapa are native speakers of maori all of us are have learnt maori as a second language tut the only um people who are native speakers are immigrants <&>4:00 into the community from other tribal areas um now that doesn't pose a problem for us but it does <.>po pose a problem for some people um our teachers those that are native speakers are are from other areas swallows <.>bu um most of those are not qualified <,> teachers um the qualified teachers are second language learners of maori the other difficulty oh of course so so there's a <.>lim there are limitations in the kind of the level of maori language that the children um tut will achieve <,> er clears throat but we <.>d also know that language does not er is not only acquired through the school system in actual fact little very little language is acquired through the school system most children acquire language from their parents um and the <.>w wider community generally and most of our parents don't speak maori and um tut in the wider community the language is <&>5:00 not spoken in the shops television <.>i <.>in <.>in in in the places that the children come in contact in their <.>norly normal daily <.>d day to day activities inhales so <,> what happens is the children's models of language er are very few and <,> they <,> learn a lot of the language from each other and they learn aberrant forms of the language and often simplified forms of the language and um that language then fossilises <,> um into a form that many kaumatua cringe when they hear the children <{1><[1>speak and so while they might um <,> appear to the uneducated ear as being incredibly communicative in maori their voc voc a large proportion of their language is is not correct in terms of if you're <.>being in terms of um a purist analysis of the language <,> but that's not so much of a concern <&>6:00 of us what is a concern of us is that the language actually is becoming simplified tut that um distinct forms that were voc <.>ex that exist in the language are being simplified into you know one form for instance i mentioned yesterday was the a and o category um children don't distinguish between the two a and o category something <{2><[2>that's central to maori language or there are tut um two different times <.>k types of negatives in the language and the children have coalesced the two into into one um and those <.>so sorts of issues so it's quite a <,> a difficult task for the teachers who are aware of this um and as <.>they they are the only models in the school um to rectify it inhales what <{3><[3>we are finding also is that children coming in at five year olds who've been at kohanga reo speaking maori reasonably fluently at a five year old level um as they <.>progressive progress through the school they can voc um they can they become more and more dominant in english and to maintain maori is <&>7:00 quite difficult because the children's intellectual development very quickly outstrips their linguistic development tut and they're unable to articulate <,> the their ideas in a way that they want to <,> um yeah so <[1>laughs <[2>mm <[3>mm ae i can see although you know the problems that you enumerated there are <,> major problems for the maori language um in a way they have a positive aspect in that it kills all the arguments about children being educated in maori not becoming competent in english mm oh yes <{1><[1>i mean there's inhales exhales in our own family tut um we have tried to <,> restrict our children from speaking english and that has been <.>un <.>im impossible to do we've done all sorts of things bribed them blackmailed them to speak maori all the time and as children as little children they only spoke maori but um now they're totally dominant in english <,> um and we don't speak to them in <&>8:00 english <,> they don't have any education in english but the <.>s the <{2><[2>social pressure of a society um forces people to speak english <[1>mm <[2>ah ae we can just go back to um the discussion about <,,> the language situation in the wairarapa um i'm sure a lot of the listeners would be able to recognise similarities between the wairarapa and here in terms of the paucity of native speakers and the fact that most of our native speakers here in dunedin actually come from the north island um <,> tut can you give us perhaps some sort of indication of how you recruited staff to the kura kaupapa at masterton um <,> <.>th they're basically parents of <{><[>the children um we haven't we've advertised in <.>n nationally and we haven't recruited anybody to come to wairarapa um most people who are <&>9:00 native speakers of maori voc have a tendency to go back to their own regions um we've got people mainly women who've married into wairarapa and their children have gone to kohanga reo they have supported them through kohanga reo and now are supporting them in the kura kaupapa maori um <,> they all of those people that come in are either in the form of kaiarahi reo or support staff um in the school teacher aides secretaries um tut er special education <,> tutors and so on um <.>n none of the people we have that come in er have got any if you like formal qualifications <[>oh ae i know that the subject of of establishing a kura kaupapa in the otago region is forefront in the minds of a lot of people just now um as the factor funding for otago is quite severely threatened um swallows tut would you be able to perhaps <,> give us some pointers as to how to start <{><[>word <[>mm <,> inhales well the establishment of a kura kaupapa maori <,> probably is <&>10:00 more a political decision than a um tut than a educational one true mm so i i don't want to elaborate on that a lot um but <,> er um <.>e there <.>i there is a procedure to go through and that that procedure is to put a proposal to the ministry of education now in that proposal you have to <,> outline um the numbers of children um there is a restriction not a restriction a a clears throat a minimum number er twenty one twenty one children to establish um although <,> um ministry has been lenient in some instances where there is a potential for twenty one you haven't got twenty one to start on day one but there is a potential that um you know people have have got children in kohanga reo have committed themselves tut to enrolling in the kura kaupapa maori <,> um <,> tut <&>11:00 er you put forward an application to the ministry um voc with as much detail as you can regarding um clears throat why you require a kura kaupapa maori in the region <,> schools er regions that um have been most successful are those where there isn't um another option <,> um now in our <.>s situation in wairarapa there WAS another option there is a total immersion um programme operating in one of the primary schools the difference about <,> um a kura kaupapa maori than um a bilingual or an immersion option tut is that um <,> the whole environment of the school is maori <,> whereas if um a programme is just attached to a school the dominance of the english part of the programme <&>12:00 always um causes the the the kura <.>kaup or the tut immersion part of the school to have to compromise so you need to put those kind of issues in your application to the ministry <,> inhales um and basically um <,> the decision as to voc whether or not you'll be successful will be one a political decision and whether or not your member of parliament um advocates on your behalf um what the political climate is in this region regarding um the voc voc voc tut the elections for next year um how much money is appropriated the budget um what are the priority areas for establishment um <,> so it's <{><[>very difficult to to really give specific advice on er on what to do <[>mm ae well you've already jumped the gun on my next question which was what really is the difference between kura kaupapa and immersion units within <&>13:00 <{1><[1>schools um <,,> <{2><[2>i guess <[1>mm <[2>i could talk a bit more about that though just to <{1><[1>um because <,> because kura kaupapa maori exists in one respects to maintain and develop maori language it also has um the the purpose of trying to improve um educational performance of maori and um and we believe that we can do both and that now if you look at what the state's the mainstream state system um is like and why it has failed maori people there is there are a number of things that have been identified one is that the school organisation and practices in the school have have mitigated against maori achievement and um <,> tut so um maori people now are saying that a whanau structure with <.>a lots of <&>14:00 peer support and whanau support is a more appropriate model to work on than the more factory um school model that exists now and perhaps <.>it <.>the it's more more <.>accept more beneficial to all students but particularly for maori people but there are other practices that have actually um caused maori to underachieve or barriers to achievement tut things like um <,> the practice of keeping um children back in junior classes and maori are disproportionately kept back particularly boys um and <.>there's there's been some research that seems to have changed now streaming in schools usually streams maoris to the bottom streams of class and that <.>h <{2><[2>goes with it is a whole lot of negative um <,> things then there's the um there are issues to do with teaching styles and attitudes er teachers often don't have the same cultural congruence with the students and therefore they <.>d they're not able to actually um if you like <&>15:00 touch base with the way the children think and operate and um <,> maori people <,> oh there has been some research in this courtney cazden's done quite a lot of research in new zealand on how pakeha teachers relate to maori students and <{3><[3>comparing them with how maori <.>stud teachers relate to maori students there's also a general low expectation of maori parents BY maori parents and maori pupils and teachers generally about maori kids' performance um um maori parents don't expect their kids to perform well generally they have high aspirations but they often don't expect their children to be doctors and lawyers and accountants maori students themselves have that attitude about <{4><[4>themselves that's bred through the system the teachers while teachers don't <,> necessarily voc believe that they DO have low expectations i've frequently <&>16:00 heard <.>t teachers say gosh um hemi's really bright he got eighty percent <{5><[5>in in the maths tests they didn't expect hemi to get eighty percent <,> they do <.>ex and so so it's something unusual for a maori child to get top of the class in english or maths for instance <&>16:14 <[1>yeah <[2>mm <[3>mm <[4>mm <[5>laughs