<&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies <&>Victoria University of Wellington <&>side two <&>0:06 very poor because <{><[><.>in <[>when you say national management do you mean by the government by <{><[>the ministry of education <[><.>by by the ministry of education because the ministry of education when tomorrow's schools was set up it was set up in a context where things were to be devolved to schools and so the ministry of education <.>r almost refuses to deliver <.>to to work on ANY service delivery like managing the reforms is is something <.>that a job that has to be done they believe their job is simply advice to the minister now they haven't been doing it no one has been doing it and to be quite honest <.>i <.>it it's a shambles on the ground in schools and and our members and i know that primary teachers also are really quite upset with the POOR management at national level and so when we when we came <&>1:00 <.>t voc this was the situation that we faced so we looked for a way forward and we and we have picked up essentially the the c t u strategy that what we need is an industry plan you know that what we have to find that there needs to be planning and we've gone out and during the year <.>we we've talked to principal groups we've talked to the school trustees' association and we've drawn up a document that's known as the education accord and it's been signed by all the principal groups and the <.>s and the school trustees and the two education unions n z e i and p p t a and we've given that to the politicians and that document calls for a five year plan to IMPLEMENT the national curriculum <{><[><.>and <[>so where does that stand at the moment are they mulling it over or they they're mulling it over we're hopeful that they will voc obviously before the before november the sixth <{1><[1>we're looking for an endorsement from from the various parties and er voc voc to say yes they would adopt this accord <{2><[2>and so really what we're calling for when you call for a plan you've got to have a mechanism by which you you can plan and again what the c t u is proposing is that each industry have what's known as an industry development organisation <&>2:00 a planning organisation within it not to go back to the old days of detail five year plans or anything but essentially indicative planning which gives you some idea of where you're going but <.>a also looks at HOW you're going to get there and so we're quite we're hopeful that there is an agenda in front of us that <.>it that can take us forward in a <.>m in a much more positive way <[1>laughs <[2><.>do this sounds like a very strong move because it it hasn't occurred ever before has it in new zealand education when there have been overall reviews and and general indicative planning it's come from the government from the ministry <{><[>and from the old department <[>the <.>ye <.>we we're in an interesting period because it'd be fair to say that all of the political parties we haven't spoken to winston peters but certainly the alliance the labour party and the national party the goals are pretty much the same that <.>ed the education and training reforms that are there are accepted by all the parties they have to occur teachers and parents all support the general direction that <&>3:00 we're going in but there's a vacuum at national level as i explained before the ministry of education will not manage the reforms because they don't seem to see it as their as their function they're much more busy trying to devolve property to schools they're DEVOLVING school transport to schools they're devolving special education to schools schools don't WANT it they've made it quite clear they don't WANT these things at school level they're much better managed nationally but <.>the the ministry of education is in this mode where they WANT to devolve things and they they have basically washed their hands of managing the national er introduction of the curriculum and assessment reforms and so there's been a bit of a vacuum which i think it's true that the teacher unions certainly have stepped into and said as part of the c t u approach we believe a plan should be there it should be linked to the enterprise council that it needs to be part of a wider strategic development and we're also looking at some other issues within education like a teaching council and an industry <&>4:00 training organisation for teachers and support staff so that we can move so that teachers and and schools can MODEL for our students the new environment which our students are going to i mean what we keep saying it's pretty silly for teachers to be still operating on a on a contract and a career path and a training system which implies that they can be trained ONCE teach for forty years go on to government super when in fact what they're TELLING their students and what all the signals in the new system are hey you're going to have three careers during that time you're going to have to <{><[>retrain <[>retrain yeah so <.>w so what we're saying is that we need an organisation which <,> MAKES or ENCOURAGES teachers to model the new system for their students that this the best way <.>for for teachers to be practising what we teach <{><[><.>and <[><.>and and is that part of the education accord that is that will be an outcome of the education accord we've got a lot of work to do er to er <.>t <.>t to persuade some of the other groups that this is the way to go but er we're certainly putting forward this within the c t u context as the way to go so has it had endorsement from the c t u <{><[>or discussion within <[>it's it's had endorsement from the c t u er within the education sector grouping and the wider executive yes <&>5:00 that sounds really good so it sounds just to wrap up this part of the the programme it sounds as if <.>you're you have a very positive view of what happened at the conference this week we have <.>i i think that the strategic approach that the that the government is taking we've we've tried to take a strategic approach within education we've talked about modernisation the modernisation process being what is happening and that teachers want to be involved in it that it will work if you <.>in if <.>y if you take teachers with you and you take parents with you that the whole thing can be quite a productive exercise which can lead to <.>a a much higher view of of the teaching service and so on by the community and so both <{><[>and i think that's true for the union movement as well that voc the perception of the <.>u of unionists er is changing as as people who want to be part of the process and certainly in education we feel that way <[>mm great inhales well <.>we we'll take a music <&>6:00 break and it's from the new zealand group the waratahs <.>s and they give us saint peter's rendezvous <&>6:06 <&>four minutes six seconds of music break <&>10:12 saint peter's rendezvous from the new zealand group the waratahs and we're voc listening to martin cooney the president of the p p t a the post primary teachers' association in the talking union programme on wellington access radio martin we said we'd speak now about curriculum and assessment and the changes that have taken place and you mentioned before how the older system of exams were structured to exclude people to fail we had the the old fifty percent pass rate for school certificate which caused a lot of anguish could you explain what the changes are now that we're moving away from that system well there are two sets of changes that are occurring in schools the first is the new <&>11:00 zealand curriculum framework which alongside it there is <.>a a group of CORE subject changes which are under the title of the achievement initiative now they're really about the content of what students learn and the sorts of skills and values that we believe that our students should have by the time they leave school then there's <.>a a second set of changes which are how we certify how we assess those and particularly at the end of secondary school where people's life chances are pretty much affected by the sorts of qualifications that they get voc you can imagine this is a HIGHLY sensitive and a highly political issue <.>bec for exactly that reason <.>that that your chance for life is determined by what you get for school cert sixth form certificate u e er bursary well u e's been gone for some time so <.>w as we change to <.>an what's known as the national certificate a national diploma system which is based on the <,> new zealand <&>12:00 qualifications framework er we have to be extremely careful as we go through that swallows now what secondary teachers believe is that we must maintain the current system while we introduce the new one so that we DON'T penalise students at the moment as they're coming through we must maintain that over the next three four five years but introduce the national certificate beside it the national certificate is quite different from the basically externally examed examination system that we have had in the past it's it's really a internally assessed system but it's based on unit standards which are determined and put on the framework so that <.>th it is it is quite a different system and it's one which will takes considerable time and considerable effort to persuade parents particularly those living in whangamata or opunake <.>or or those more <&>13:00 outlying areas or particularly probably parents surprisingly in a way in some of the poorer areas within cities voc to accept and the reason for that is that at the moment school certificate for all of its negative points and they are pretty high the one positive thing that people do see about it is that it's FAIR in inverted commas because the same exam applied throughout the country yes and and so that if you go for a job and you've come from one of those small towns you've got your school certificate and the same standard applies to that as the person from wellington college or auckland grammar now of course we know in fact the old boy's network applies anyway and that the person who gets the job you know may not be basically based on that qualification anyway but but to some extent <.>it <.>it <.>it it is part of the new zealand psyche that it is FAIR now of course it has been HIGHLY unfair to to all sorts of people i mean one of the interesting statistics is that internationally at fourth form level our students are in the top three or four in almost all subjects world wide a year later we <&>14:00 fail fifty percent of those students in an exam now it's a crazy system you know other other other er voc groups world wide have much higher pass marks than that you know <.>the <.>the <.>the and and allow their students to carry on telling them they're <.>succeeders succeeding and that's really the principle behind the national certificate so so it has support from <.>th the p p t a very strong support from the p p t a teachers have been FIGHTING for this for years we have we have FOUGHT why we've asked for years why should we simply be a a an excluding device for the universities because that's what we've been <{1><[1>we've been a selection group for the universities and we've been teaching in a situation where we know that from the day students come into our schools they get labelled as failures because they're not going to pass school certificate and we've been fighting for years to have a system like primary schools do where every student can be <&>15:00 treated on their ability and given pathways through of course there will still be only a limited number of doctors and lawyers and accountants we could do with a few less of the last two groups perhaps um <{2><[2>you know and and so on voc you will still have to guide people in and so what we're saying is one of the big changes in secondary schools well there's going to have to be much more guidance <,> time and guidance effort put in so that students are helped to choose the correct pathway when it won't be clear <.>b <.>w i if exams don't exclude you out then you have to have a way of guiding people into the appropriate pathways so <{3><[3>there are big changes in this <[1>mm <[2>laughs <[3>this this means that that er teachers <.>a <.>a are <.>going there's more going to be demanded of teachers at every stage during the <.>s the secondary schooling of of all the pupils <{><[><.>because <[>already both the primary and secondary teachers' workload is a huge issue teachers all round the place are telling us er i mean i spend a lot of my time going out to schools and and teachers are <&>16:00 saying i CANNOT do a quality job as i used to because what is happening is we're trying to do the job we have always done plus we're trying to introduce a major change the biggest change in secondary schools certainly for certainly fifty years and possibly a hundred without any recognition from the government or anybody that it's actually happening <{><[><.>and <[>so so what is p p t a asking for or or <.>pr proposing well it's it's quite a difficult issue for us because when you put the words teacher and workload together in the community i mean <.>m most people think that teachers became <{><[>teachers for four reasons you know and <.>they they are for easter may august and christmas <[>oh yes laughs <{><[>laughs <[>and and er you know we've found it quite difficult to persuade people that there is actually a real problem i think we're beginning to get through to some of the decision makers there is a real issue here and that er <.>y they do have to listen to teachers but we're <.>i i mean we don't believe there's much point handing out stress tablets or all that sort of stuff the point is to get a DECENT planning process for the changes and we've actually had some success recently <&>17:00 certainly the minister of education who we haven't always agreed with i think er over the last few years HAS accepted that there does have to be a planning process and at the moment he he's actually responded to some of the calls for instance recently he has rescheduled the introduction of the new maths curriculum at senior level so that in in in nineteen ninety four the school certificate prescription will be changed and and the year after the sixth form and the following year the seventh <{><[>form now <[>so it's phased in? yeah now that you would have thought made sense <{><[>but about two months ago they were all going to be phased in next year <[>yeah right in one go now that wouldn't be a fair go for teachers and it certainly wouldn't be a fair go for students <{1><[1><.>so so we have had some success in getting through to <{2><[2>the minister that <{3><[3>there does need to be some changes <[1>yeah <[2>word <[3>word could i ask you <.>r rather briefly because we're just starting to run out of time whether these curriculum changes are going to be positively benefiting groups who in the past have really <&>18:00 suffered under the education system such as for instance maori pacific islanders and to some extent in some subjects er girl students we've analysed four specific voc groups like that which which er need to have specific concerns raised and and need to be <.>th their needs need to be considered particularly as we <.>m go through the curriculum and assessment changes and all the consequential changes that will follow because there will be there will be changes to school structures for instance middle schools might come out of it er it could be senior colleges come out of it there could be quite big changes um but in particular you've analysed maori voc voc and and we've called for a five year plan to change the education system for maori students so that it DOES meet maori needs and that they do have a considerable input if not control over the decision making for maori students girls education a five year plan to make sure that that is brought up to speed and of course the <&>19:00 conditions of women teachers are looked at in the process because casualisation is having a big impact on that at the moment pacific island er of course similar but a big area that we're concerned about is rural students and er in spite of er <.>cons er statements from the minister that technology will solve it er it's not quite that simple <{><[><.>there there are really big concerns as for people in rural areas as to how they can get a fair go under this system and that's one of the real concerns that we have <[>mm tut well that sounds really positive martin thanks for telling us about it um the earlier earlier on you heard <.>us er heard martin talking about what happened at this week's c t u affiliates conference and you've been listening to the talking union programme which <.>b broadcasts every week on wellington access radio at the same time so do tune in next week to talking union and thank you very much martin for presenting the p p t a programme today thank you <&>19:48