<&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies <&>Victoria University of Wellington <&>side one <&>0:05 now we need to ask you you've done a document on bulk funding strengthening government control over maori education <{><[><.>what <[>that's right what created the climate for that well for quite a long time leading up to bulk funding when the voc the government was talking about that possibility inhales lots of maori teachers in particular and maori parents have talked about what it would do for maori education would it be a plus or would it be a minus and er most of us have actually come to the conclusion that it won't be a plus <,> and er because of all this discussion that went along we decided that maybe we should put our thoughts down in in on paper okay let's <.>g and pathfind our way through some of these <.>th <.>sor er thoughts that you had to deal with to arrive at your final document in <&>1:00 your intro there were some comments made where did you find the comments and what <,> the people who gave the comments to you how did they arrive at them well what we had is we our <.>m initially voc i put together a lot lots of different um ideas that had come forward from different maori people and then i took the the draft er information to a meeting of komiti maori which includes er preschool teachers you know kaiarahi reo um primary school teachers and secondary school teachers and i put the whole document to them and said to them how do you feel about this now the comments that came back were from teachers that are actually already in schools that are bulk funded <,> and er so their their feelings of it it's a very stressful situation <,> that they have to be preplanned so well er every pencil <&>2:00 or bit of paper that they're going to be used in the coming up year they have to account for um and so that's really where the comments came from they they there was four of them at the meeting that were already in bulk funded schools so <.>we've we all established that these people that you've got comments from have worked on the coalfront of this situation called bulk funding can you tell us some of the comments that came out of your findings please tut well the the main things were was the fact that they felt it created extra work i mean besides actually having to work in the classroom they had to do this accounting kind of process to work out exactly how much money they were going to need in the coming up year and they had to have this <.>b um budget in by a certain time <,> otherwise they they didn't get any money for the next year <,> er everything had to be fine down to absolute detail and as well as that they there were things that they had got in previous times that they didn't get now <&>3:00 like they <.>y <.>y you couldn't employ external teachers <.>with NOW <,> but they could before <,> um <,> tut the pressure of the system on them and and a lot of it too is the fact that <.>m maori education they felt was a low priority in most situations now when they say that if you don't put your <.>bul er your <,> accounts in your budget in you lose <.>the um inhales you lose the funding inhales <.>wouldn't is that a blackmailing tactic <&>crossover between MG and LP obliterates less than one second of speech it appears to me to be a <.>blackmai mailing function but um of course it's not seen as that it's seen as um selfmanagement isn't it <,> mm okay we move on to what's so new about maori education having low priority mae ra no tena kaupapa yeah it isn't new it isn't new at all but what we're saying is that er voc maori people are being misled to think that by getting bulk funding all of these ngawe that were <.>th there before are going to be repaired <&>4:00 mm which is not the case at all i mean those those things have been there all the time and we've asked constantly to have them rectified and bulk funding is not going to fix them now when <,> trustees they are the main instigators to putting budgets together the trustees of the <{><[>schools? <[>tut <.>the they're part of the process cos part of it is that the the school itself has to decide well virtually what their <.>wish wishlist is going to be and then that gets <.>c um cut back <.>accord to fit the budget now it's all right if your trustee's had professional er experiences those of and the majority of maoris i'm not sure this is just a generalisation here would <.>have would <.>w have or have not that backup what is the <.>re what is the added stress to that well <.>y you end up like for instance say for instance maori language factor money <,> that's allocated according to the number of maori children you have in schools and initially when <&>5:00 it was first er put forward it was asked that maori people be given the right to make decisions as to how that money would be spent <,> but in lots of situations to actually cover the shortfall in other places that's just been taken into the general putea <,> and so maori people then have to front up and say well what about that maori language factor money you know let's have it where is it and those kinds of things so it's it's actually quite difficult <&>pronounced as difficul that if you happen to be one maori board member on a board of trustees that you go up against everybody else who can see that the bills are really you know really bad for the school and <.>s and so can that maori person as well but do you fight for that money or what do you do right has that question been answered by anybody other than ourselves no in most cases no laughs there isn't any longterm benefits for our tamariki in the school that er it by getting bulk funding that isn't tino rangatiratanga what is it <&>6:00 yeah <.>it it's what the document says it's a means by <.>which which the government actually strengthens their hold <,> i think maoris are being <&>telephone rings misled to to think that if you get bulk funding tut then you are given this putea and then you can do with it what you want which is fine you can do that but <,> they also because they GIVE you the putea have the right to then say to you er well we don't have voc the same amount of money as we did last year so we're going to be cutting you down and so that putea that goes to you again to do with it as you want starts to shrink but you don't have any control over that whatsoever voc <.>the the biggest statement that you've said is that the government wants to strengthen its control over us is this a psychological need <.>or or why do they want to i mean there's nothing to control any more in terms of maori things they've controlled it all why do they still want to keep at <,> flogging a dead horse <&>7:00 well <.>i i think it's um it's the cunning message that's being put across it's not the fact that it's going to change from what it's been before but it's the fact that maori people are being led to believe it's going to change i <.>th i <.>r it's they're still going to control it they've <.>s controlled it right up to now and that's why we're in the situation that we're in and they will continue to control it but then don't tell us that you're going to get the right to do with it as you want when that's not true <,> listening to a few coalfront maoris around the country they are now having this er stance that they don't believe the government any longer so can this ploy keep working the way it is tut i think something has to happen to turn it around because er i mean it's cost cutting and that's all there is to it <,> there's no um nice words to make it any different and i think something has to happen because um as far as maori are concerned voc the statistics <.>s <&>8:00 speak for themselves i mean we don't have to do any research <.>into to tell us that maori are failing what do you think will show itself as something <.>st that's starting to happen tut inhales yes well that's a difficult one to answer i don't really know it's several several things and no doubt in spite of all of these government changes maori people will continue to work for maori education and they will do it um in the name of aroha and all the rest of it <,> but it just seems to me that that's that's unfair being unfair what have maoris to say about the whole situation we hear what you say the educationalists bulk funding inhales is in a way control <{><[>and we hear a LOT of snippets of maoris giving us the realities of maoridom out there and the statistics the scrapheaps you name it we'll do it <[>mm mm <.>w we own that <,> what have maoris really got to say and how should they say it well say for instance the the situation of having a kura kaupapa maori <&>9:00 school um when you have that opportunity presented to you on a on a plate for instance most maori are actually going to take it up and say yes yes that's exactly what we want and the initial grant of setting up your kura kaupapa is fine but then what about the the akeake after that i mean i've i heard yesterday about a kohanga that was closing because it doesn't have the finance to continue on and i mean the cake stalls in the area that it happens to be in it's just impossible the local people don't have the money to continue to cake stall or or batons up or raffles or whatever to keep the whole place going and <.>i i mean that's that's the the stark reality on the other side and i think when mere clark wrote her part of the report that's what she actually was trying to point out to maori people to look beyond what's just in front of us if we're so much in pain and that seems to imply that now it's hard to get above your pain and give longterm views? <&>10:00 oh no oh no no no i i think that we're we are a permanent optimistic race we are are we <{><[>oh that's good <[>and and i think we have to be because otherwise if <.>w if we let ourselves go down well we might as well give up the race hell we've survived too long now to give up that aside what have maori said about the whole issues specifically <.>it i've dealt mostly with teachers but what has been heartening about the report is that er i've had lots of maori boards of trustees phone me and ask for copies so that they could take it to THEIR boards of trustees and <.>to and to actually have meetings in their community about the whole thing so <.>i it actually tells me that <.>m maori people are listening voc they are reading and they are saying here's another point of view let's look at this and see how <.>th you know how that fits us so that's really good and there was a hui with manatu maori hui on bulk funding <{><[>in march how did that go <[>mm tut well that was more of a factfinding situation <.>it that went fine in in that it was just a really a discussion about it and to <.>fou <&>11:00 find out how people were feeling inhales tut and er kahu wakatipu came down from rakaumanga and at that particular meeting he SAID that this whole thing of actually having to ask like the maori language factor money ASK for it back is is yet another situation where maori people are put in this situation of whakaiti again inhales and um he didn't think that that should be part of the whole deal <&>11:26