<&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies <&>Victoria University of Wellington <&>side one <&>1:05 right so um just to clarify here <,,> voc jim um has <,> given me a paper now who else has seen this paper <{><[>i got it this morning <[>just er just jane and emma no i haven't no yeah <,> well can we have a copy yep i'll pass this around <,> basically just to clarify what we didn't know was whether or not jim would be putting out <,> paper <,> recommending any changes to the total visual arts programme for next year and this <.>i he has put up his recommendations that the the visual arts pure papers DON'T change there are some tut minor recommendations and some slight panel structure which i'd like you to take us through but basically if i've understood that <&>2:00 all correctly we're talking about virtually no change <{><[>in the pure visual arts programmes <[>right <,> word in the structure of the programme in the structure of the <{1><[1>programmes <{2><[2>right <[1>yeah <[2>didn't know your programmes were pure jim laughs laughs the JOINT visual arts schemes that involve <,> a film programme a craft programme mm i want to have a discussion about here <{><[>because <,> um we has agreed that there would be a a discussion at this point so if there are to be any alterations a discussion should take place and it needs to go to the council so i know that er jim's put up some proposals and has had a discussion with jane and emma <[>because greg graham word mm and we need to clarify here as to <,> where that sits <,> jane i'm <.>s i'm did you catch all that or not yep <,> sort of i'm just helping lorraine organise the meeting room and then we'd booked this room you see yes okay yeah have you found them did you get one <&>3:00 no no because she's trying to organise that at the moment oh clears throat all right so we need <.>t to i want to clarify this er this visual arts area so clarify just the what the paper will <,> say <{><[>the visual arts programme paper and part two of that is and it could be the same paper the um what what will be done with the the joint visual arts schemes so i'd like <.>t <.>t but he'll deal with that as a as a grouping and then emma wants to um raise the issue of possible commissioning scheme paper so i'd like to take those three things as a block while jane is still here now <.>we'd we'll see how long it takes because i know we'd like to go straight on to auckland theatre after that <[>coughs <{><[>okay <[>could i just ask jim a question roseanne can you pour me some coffee <{><[>oh word <[>oh i <.>r <.>w <{1><[1>we had a discussion in about <.>ge general unrest amongst the the <{2><[2>visual arts sector <[1>clears throat <[2>do you have milk and sugar no <&>4:00 with regard to the way the commission programme was operating and i i believe that you discussed with us <.>th um the fact that you were going to in some way um <,,> look at the reestablishment of the individual projects er projects and <.>i if what natalie's saying is right <,,><&>3 in that the the <.>r pure programmes are going to stand as they are does that mean they're not going to do that yep i <,> PLAYED this one out with jane we met for an hour and a half yesterday and worked with nat last night <,> i don't HAVE an answer i don't have a mechanism for responding to some criticism <,> and on the basis that there is apparently no new MONEY available <&>5:00 i would be loath to recommend at this point particularly as i'm departing that money was taken from other schemes so although i <,> HEAR some of the concern and SHARE some of it my recommendation will be that we keep the programme in place for at LEAST another year before looking at a mechanism to respond to that criticism that the that voc that also here i don't give an <.>answer i don't have a mechanism and i <,,><&>3 um asked jane the same question and she didn't come up with a mechanism either i FLOATED with jane and nat the idea of of making the fellowship contestable tut contestable bag of money for a year and no one voc seems to think that that's a good idea and we're likely to have to put the research bag into the fellowship ANYWAY because it currently has a small programme that's <.>d that that has um decisions agreed to by council so that would be the only change <&>6:00 that we er put the research into the fellowship and <{><[>create a research fellowship <[>how much is that thirty in the research programme? yeah yeah yeah jim what what er i haven't read any of these papers so i might get some at the end of the day <{1><[1>voc yeah no no that's okay it's not a criticism it's just a comment um what is the what is the um has been the <,> the scale of your your um survey of the of <,> the <{2><[2>component the users of the progammes in terms of the <,,> feedback you know <,> tut i'm just trying to get a sense of how of <{3><[3>how how <[1>no patrick it comes it comes to you today laughs yeah yeah yeah <[2>clears throat <[3>oh <,> we i mean how widespread the concern about the absence of the or the the disestablishment of the projects <,> <{><[>scandal <[>um as the report states the only people that have been asked to respond from this year are panel <{1><[1>members and we've got those who cared to respond in writing <{2><[2>and they're not great the quality of the analysis is is weak um and you've got copies of those that <{3><[3>have come <[1>oh right <[2>no no no <&>7:00 <[3>right right tut um other that there's one letter from mm i remember <{><[><,> yeah <[>you read that to jackie and i and we <.>res we agreed on the response and we made the same comment <{><[>that we HEAR the concern um <[>right that was from pamela wasn't it was that the one <{><[>from pamela <[>no from jackie barraud and a <{1><[1>a range of artists in auckland <{2><[2>that we hear the concern and that we are in the process of doing analysis and council at its meeting in june will make any decisions <[1>oh <[2>oh right um <,> yeah yeah so yeah that's as <.>much i mean my oh is this paper GOING to council now no <{><[>no <[>well so why what what will council decide if we put up a case for a new programme then council would have to make that <{1><[1>decision yeah yeah yeah and one of the <{2><[2>ones that i floated was the fellowship but noone thinks it's a good idea <{3><[3>so i'm lost to <&>8:00 come up with another idea my instinct is actually to leave it my instinct is to <{4><[4>leave it for another year i believe that er one year is not enough time to really effectively evaluate how effective the schemes are so that's my instinct <{5><[5>however i hear the concern don't have don't have a mechanism <[1>oh i see right right <[2>clears throat <[3>yeah <[4>clears throat <[5>mm clears throat i'm not happy about that yeah yeah yeah well i <,,> now i i tell you what what i was said to me on my going on through the gallery traps it's very widespread concern though you know i mean i've <.>b <.>y i haven't got it in writing so you just have to take my word for it that it IS very widespread <,,> <{><[>tut and i word <[>but do you have an answer <,,> tut laughs um i'm <.>no i'm not sure um i think that you could tinker with the fellowship um programme er i've got no <{><[>support for that from either colleagues except for yourself or panel members <,,> <[>mm no support from panel <{><[>members <[>for tinkering <&>9:00 <&>pronounced tinking with the fellowship no no yeah no i mean i i that was my that was my <{1><[1><.>s that was my thinking as <{2><[2>well that we could look at making that contestable particularly for emergent artists <[1>yeah <[2>yeah yeah one of the issues patrick is the emergent artists BIT <{1><[1>you know how do people <{2><[2>who er <[1>yes yes er word <[2>it's it's a key <{><[>issue <[>how do you break in <{><[>how do you break into <.>the <[>yeah and i and i've said that in my in my <{1><[1>issues for the commission i've said that that <{2><[2>there is a concern that <,> EMERGENT people won't get a look in the <{3><[3>door either from council OR from commissioners because some commissioners don't know new work <{4><[4>unless they do they're going to have to do a a wide look job to actually <{5><[5>come up with um <{6><[6>with the stuff um and i did suggest in the letter to barraud that we COULD tag <,> one fellowship <,,> or split one fellowship for two quote unquote emergent artists <[1>yeah <[2>yeah <[3>mm mm <[4>yeah right <[5>clears throat <[6>yeah yeah that's what we do in writing and it <{><[>does sort of work <[>yeah now <{><[>that's now that's that's a mechanism <[>mm yes which wouldn't constitute a structural change <{1><[1>in the programme OR necessarily need to go to council <,> but then patrick that raises for me tagging <,,> there are <.>issue <&>pronounced <.>ussue other issues of tagging one is related to craft one's related to maori i mean there was one maori application in that last thirty applications and one pacific island <,,> um and you know we got letters from pacific island artists criticising that <,> <{2><[2>there were no fellowships and we wrote back and said you know cam chaired the panel and there was a maori member on and there was one application and one from a part samoan person and the panel were not happy with the with the calibre um but the emergent one seems to me to be probably the greater concern <[1>no <,> no word <&>10:00 <[2>they weren't clears throat yeah it's that's what <{><[>it is <[>and er council could signal their interest in encouraging investment in that area BY earmarking a fellowship however pamela would argue as a panel member that to give someone THAT length of support when they are so emergent is also the wrong signal <{><[>possibly too <[>well i think it's absolutely the wrong <{><[>signal mm <[>because we're talking about a twenty four thousand dollars <{1><[1>we're talking about <,> two thousand a month on a <{2><[2>on a <.>s on a salary for a year <[1>mm mm <&>11:00 <[2>yeah yeah they're quite often talking about quite small amounts to do a project <{1><[1>er that's what i'm talking <{2><[2>about and so they're flexible amounts rather than <[1>yes <[2>mm yeah <{><[>no <[>so it isn't the solution at all mm no i don't think it's the <{1><[1>solution jane i think it actually raises another set of problems <{2><[2>of you know how much do you give to someone at <{3><[3>what stage um you <{4><[4>could split it <[1>mm mm <[2>mm <[3>mm <[4>mm well i i was i was thinking jim that that that mayBE <.>y you can i don't know you could do it year about you could say no fellowships this year <.>a and it will go to um <.>g voc individuals <,> and do it year about until until there is more money in this in this er <,> bag if that were the case what i'd prefer to do is just let the fellowship run for two or three years and then cut it i mean one of the arguments with the fellowship was in fact that over a period of years you'd build up a significant body of work by supporting five people a year to do their work and already that's showing we're in the second <{1><[1>year now and it's very clear to me that people like bob hawkins have produced a superb body of work over a year and william dawkins used it incredibly well to build a base <{2><[2>for for for the practice <{3><[3>and you could actually get it <[1>mm <&>12:00 <[2>mm <[3>but five years is a long time jim and what about those other people who come up you're going to have nobody in that bracket then <{><[>because you <.>could <[>but there's no time for it i mean council could make a decision to or staff could <.>re recommend that council got out of it in two years or three years on the basis that it had done its job you know it had enabled a significant group of people to develop a significant body of work and then it could could break it i mean i would NOT like to see that scheme continued ANYWAY <{><[>for a year at a time <[>why not <.>w wouldn't your emergent artists be coming up to that level <{><[>eventually <[>yeah well that's what <{><[>i'd have <.>anticipate <[>well possibly possibly <[>i just <.>don't word <{><[>word that's what we find with writers that they <[>well i of course i would never come back in a million YEARS <{><[>i mean that's one of the few bloody REWARDS for the independence you know <[>exactly mm yeah it's it's LIKE i <{><[>mean <,,> it's like a long leave you know and actually HAVE to do it for people <[>mm yeah <{><[>yeah <[>you just have to do it <{1><[1>i mean the economy's not going to <{2><[2>support these people <[1>yeah <[2>yeah yeah <{><[>but in the end but in the end it's the same issue you know i <.>e council can either put a little bit in a whole range of things dabble in a whole range of things and <&>13:00 satisfy a whole number of people in a sort of a mediocre way OR it can make some hard decisions and say sorry this is where the priority is and this is where the investment is um which is why i come back and say my INSTINCT is actually not to fiddle around with them AGAIN but to let them run for another year <[>in the next ten years i mean it <.>just if there were EVEN FIFTY thousand <{1><[1>there for one meeting a year or two small meetings a year where where there was some project money <,,> i guess it's not worth it i mean <{2><[2><.>i <[1>ah yeah <[2>a year is a yeah yes a year is a very short time for any programme just to be running <{1><[1>i mean i i don't think we'll carry out a yeah i don't we'll carry out a proper evaluation of the objectives of the scheme in one year so i certainly agree with that <,> <{2><[2><,> er <[1>mm well what's happened though clears throat <[2>i mean my international schemes had a real bumpy ride getting started you know that <{1><[1>it it does take <{2><[2>a lot longer <[1>yeah <[2>yeah yeah i mean it is true i don't you know i mean i <.>r i think we've got to be be fair about this too i mean ANY shift will cause some <&>14:00 concern and some pain for some for some period of <{1><[1>time and let's be you know <{2><[2>let's let's be sort of clear about that and i think the issue for council is to PERHAPS <,> get a <{3><[3>a more in depth assessment of how difficult it is and how necessary are <,> how necessary is just a big bag of money for <,> direct access by artists to do certain things <&>14:21 <[1>oh that's given mm <[2>yeah yeah yeah word <[3>voc