<&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies <&>Victoria University of Wellington <&>side one <&>19:39 the and she said on the other hand you see with tipene <.>the i don't know voc i don't know i don't know how to categorise his comment er that he'd be happy with being called stephen mm er but and the <.>ma maybe the <.>b place for tipene is on the marae now i don't <.>know didn't know how to READ that that's <&>20:00 right that's right i <.>was yes i was intrigued with that yeah <{><[>yeah maybe you know there was <.>a there was an element of denigration there and i don't know it was very difficult to <[>laughs yes <{><[>yes <[>cos he would deny that er <{1><[1>as he should as he should you see now that he's <.>in a member of the brown <{2><[2>table laughs clears throat <[1>yes yes yes yes <[2>laughs yes <{><[>yeah <[>yeah the er <{><[>so <.>the <[>i wanted to did you see the programme on sunday on the voc homosexuality of maori NO it's on the on the <{><[>er sunday morning programme <[>er on the <.>ma sunday morning <{1><[1>well <.>i i was at a <{2><[2>family word <[1>yeah <[2>oh <.>it it was fascinating my wife was quite er did she watch it yes? she wasn't <{><[>FASCINATED by it she was worried by it <[>yes yes yes well i ended up with that i was <{><[>fascinated by the <[>she she yeah way people presented there's a certain <.>am a i thought there was a little bit of myth making they were making it sound there were two things i picked up er which was inhales one is that the driving force for creativity in hapu and iwi <&>21:00 has often come from gay people now and then er <{1><[1>there were one or two instances cited now but <.>i yes well i <.>i i don't know whether that's true or not <{2><[2>but it sort of sounded like a justifying er you know looking a reason to justify a particular STANCE <[1>yeah see <.>that that's what worried her <.>th the assertions <[2>that's right mm <.>th the second one was the um er the firm conviction that um er maori culture's ability to to um word ACCEPT and accommodate mm and accommodate mm er members of its kinship group means acceptance of the norm <.>an and what was coming together was yes see er acceptance means that maori had agreed <&>22:00 to this as a as <.>a as a norm as one of its norms mm and i you know i <.>j i just held back on that because <{1><[1>er i <.>w just wonder whether it was <{2><[2>stretching a point <[1>yes <[2><.>that that <.>w <.>that that's the worrying point <.>for for my wife yeah see <.>they're they were trying to NORMalise that's right <.>that that behaviour when in actual fact see the word that that we use <.>in in ngati porou for that is voc that those people have voc are TAONGA er yeah because they're part of word but they also have a mate <{><[>clears throat okay and <.>that <.>the and and and and it wasn't an excuse <,> see <.>the the idea of a mate wasn't an excuse <[>yes yes yes yes yes that er that it need to be <,,> need to be um er i guess observed and <.>they they still need <.>to <.>they they had a right to be part of the hapu <{1><[1>the kinship <{2><[2>group <[1>yes <[2>yes yes um and you see the normality as i see it from where I come from <.>in in my <&>23:00 community was cos you know we had people with that <.>s with those TRAITS yes yes er they were not <.>tre if they were men mm they were given MEN'S work yes yes and you know voc and i know of a family <.>that that expected <.>the <.>the <.>th the person with those showing those tendencies to be he was made to plough mm like the other brothers yes and he was expected to milk the cows like the <{><[>other brothers <[>mm mm he was expected to go fencing like the others he was not given treatment other than what his gender yes required him to <.>b to do yes yes and in that sense yeah that's the normality <{1><[1><,> for for for for <.>u for us but <.>to to accept the behaviour itself as normal was not you know in terms of you know the <,,> manifesting those <{2><[2>tendencies into a relationship i don't think that was the normal bit but then i could be wrong <[1>that's right that's right <[2>yep yes yeah could be wrong but all i know <&>24:00 is that <.>in in my life experiences that that um the men who showed those tendency were expected to milk the cows one of them was actually a good shoer of horses yes right voc yeah and one was a good press <.>perso you know pressing wool and became an expert at pressing and classing wool yeah and he's still alive today yeah and er and that's the normal part and you know he <.>just he talked about this <{><[>word <[>now i had no trouble i mean voc given <.>th the <.>the the pluralism that's now <{><[>accepted as part of <[>mm mm new zealand society and i think also the pluralism of ideas in human behaviour that's acceptable within a maori society now mm there is a <.>plur <.>w maori culture itself is <{><[>a is a pluralistic one now <[>right that's right therefore the er er people choosing different um life styles er <.>is <.>is is now part of the new norms that's right <&>25:00 but where i would have <.>w <.>w worries was they were <.>s trying to go back <{1><[1>into into the past and say they a <.>posit yes and <.>that that <{2><[2>that's what i'm saying yes from a <[1>and say it had a position in the past <[2><.>that that's the worrying bit yeah yeah i just thought mm <{><[>that's stretching that might be stretching the point and <[>yeah mm er i mean you wouldn't want to bring back the so called good old days if they no look <.>i i was always thought er i was told that um in tai tokerau homosexual people were seen as a weak link and er and and and on the men's side they were seen as not necessarily um the best of the defenders of the people therefore they <{><[>might be killed <[>true mm mm <{><[>mm mm <[>er well you <.>y there's <{><[>no way if that is true <[>mm mm er well then there's no way you'd want to be advocating that just because it was a <{1><[1>practice of the past and so um SO that was my that was the yeah those are the two <{2><[2>problems i had <.>with with <[1>word mm <[2>yeah with with the programme <{><[>and because but it was an intriguing one <[>mm mm um and er there was john jones <,> <&>26:00 <{><[>er it <.>was it was very powerful and um <[>yes well even aaron <{><[>himself <[>er name is it no we had they were word yeah word yes yes she was <{><[>word word very very articulate <[>yeah right right and um <{><[>actually i thought could have argued their case without <[>word yeah making it sound as if it's from <{1><[1>from word and there was no need to <{2><[2>just on simple human rights <{3><[3>er <[1>come from the distant past <[2>mm <[3>mm mm er basis now <{><[>word societies <[>and and and individual preferences yeah <{><[>er so er but oh no word <[>that's right but i think that was a brave venture to to bring out these <.>these discussion <{><[>and these behaviours into the open <[>mm mm yes yes er and i think we owe it to our to our children to debate them publicly and openly er and continue to debate it yes yes er <,> otherwise you know voc not not to to debate that i'm thinking of in terms of continual debate is to to to examine it and rigorously <&>27:00 yeah to in terms of um the traditions yes yes yeah that's the the debate word now it's not to question the rights of people to behave in that way yes yes <.>mi mine is terms of looking at rigorously examining what did our tipuna how did our tipuna handle it see about two weeks ago there was a voc there was a a maori fella i don't know i've forgotten his name but he was interviewed on er i think it was mana er mana news mm and <.>he'd he'd got um the composer from er name um oh name yeah <{><[>name about the the homosexual haka <[>mm mm which it struck me as i was listening to john jones and and name they're talking word the fact that they had to compose a haka <,> um and they weren't able to <&>28:00 find earlier ones <,> made me wonder about well how traditional is <{><[>this if it is <[>that's right mm otherwise it would be coming through and whakatauaki and <{1><[1>haka and waiata and and far as i know there's very little evidence that these things were actually sung talked about or or <{2><[2>word <[1>that's right <[2>it doesn't appear in any of the literature <{1><[1>or the oral <{2><[2>oral traditions mm <[1>word <[2>well whatever yes and er tut er so i mean i i again have no objection myself to to some of these um tut er but all these mm but <.>i i actually had thought at one stage it'd be interesting to know where the maori church leaders <,> are on this issue because the issue of homosexuality has gone through most of the church courts absolutely and er but we don't know yet i'm not aware of the tut um maori church leaders having a view on the matter <.>a at all i <{><[><.>think <,> mm mm <[>cos there's nothing came through the methodists the er and the <.>v word other <{><[>churches word <[>the anglican senate don't er debate it as i understand <{><[>it <&>29:00 <[>well er the catholic bishops' conference has made statements <.>on on <{1><[1>homosexuality and so on <{2><[2>and um have have taken into account <.>i <.>i i know <[1>mm <[2>mm mm mm er maori opinion is for maori catholics mm um <,> so again i think that most probably that documentary clears throat brought out or opened <.>a <.>a <.>a er a debate that ought to be taking <{><[>place now <[>yeah yeah i think so <{><[>the <[>within maori society via the religious leaders <,> tribal or institutional church or otherwise mm mm mm there's a <,,> cos there's a lot of advocacy going on now which is um well various institutions and the police are struggling with things like earrings on their ears that's right that's right laughs um and i think there's a lot of institution voc that voc have built up its own er mythology um like the navy <.>can can have beards and have a tot of rum and things like <&>30:00 <{><[>that you know er a lot of those need to be examined i guess society is at <.>the poised now <[>laughs yes where generations word the present climate <{><[>will examine all those issues including sexual preference <[>yeah yes there was a fellow um oh er er who was goes by the professional name name and name is er a maori actor um and he has this play word it's kind of like a monologue in a way about the life of helen <{><[>er <[>how helen from <{><[>down town <[>helen from wellington here <{><[>yeah and he was making some interesting <.>obs i think it's the tape <,> oh interesting observations er about acting he was saying that sniffs he made a contrast between dame edna character <[>mhm mm mm <&>31:00 but because the <,> <.>the <.>th the guy who plays the dame edna character is a straight male mm <.>i <.>i it's okay but he <.>this this name said when he tries to act out er <{><[>helen on stage <[>a female personality helen and because he's er acknowledge and open about his homosexuality mhm a lot of theatres won't have him or a lot of er places won't have him cos too real <.>it's yes so they'll either he says what he doesn't know he says well why if he said if i had come up and said well look i'm a married man i got five children but i want i got a play here called helen then he says he reckons that it would be he'd be able to have it in hotels <.>a and working men clubs and <{><[>er lots of other places <[>mm mhm because er and <{1><[1>a <.>very i mean it seems to me that was a very <.>intere a very <{2><[2>powerful argument actually yeah and it <.>in most probably an indication of existing prejudices and um <{3><[3>attitudinal <.>pr er problems about the people have er given <{4><[4>now that these these all part of the pluralism that we talked about earlier <[1>clears throat <[2>observation yeah mm <&>32:00 <[3>mm <,> mm <[4>word mm er so it was er it was yes the play was an <{><[>intriguing er intriguing documentary <&>32:20 <[>mm mm