<&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies <&>Victoria University of Wellington <&>side one <&>0:04 okay policy <,,> we're going to do the total immersion first eh before we even go onto the er bilingual yeah okay okay <,> are we going to get follow it through the same way as we do other policies or are we going to um you know just put the ideas down <,,> oh just some ideas down for a start i suppose okay <,> well you know remember when we were talking about that whole idea of kaupapa for er total immersion and we ended up after all that you know ages and ages of of discussion we ended up with with the kaupapa and what was that <,> it was just um that at the end of the the time that <&>1:00 the students are at <&>sighs at this school that they will be tut learnt in maori academically able <,,><&>5 um <,,><&>4 we're going <.>t <.>in because really i <.>s you know the end of that entire time we ended up by saying something like um you know the kaupapa of the of the whole class was that they be fluent sorry they be <{><[>did we say they'd be fluent speakers <[>well on the way well on the way to to becoming fluent speakers of maori <,,> i was wondering about whether we said that they <.>b they be bilingual or or whatever <,> but it it was fluency was it <,,> <&>2:00 fluency yeah you know <{><[>they're well on the way to becoming fluent but at the end of it or way you know a long way down the track that um they be bilingual and as we saw bilingual um <,,> we had a different concept of bilingualism from anybody else didn't we i mean our idea of er being bilingual was that they could <[>mm mm converse in both languages converse in in both <{><[>languages <[>read and write in both languages read and write in in both languages mm <,,><&>11 with you know following along the line of of the other policies that we we've written we usually start off with that rationale and then <&>3:00 we have a purpose for the policy and we follow on with the guidelines now we could <.>p pretty much put it into mm <{><[>mm <[>you know that kind of er <,> so our rationale for having a total immersion class <,,><&>3 it's <,> i mean it's something that the parents wanted too wasn't it yep yep and <{><[>we worked to follow through <[>it was a <.>r a request from yeah from the parents because um <,,><&>3 should have put that up <{1><[1>i i should just keep that that note though so that we've got it there request <,> well it wasn't only a request it was a demand really <{2><[2>wasn't <[1>yeah <[2>well it was it really turned into a demand didn't it because i mean as they saw it at the time um before jenny came there was all this er messing around down there where the children <&>4:00 were really only getting two hours of maori a day and they decided that they wanted more than that so they they demanded that the children have this have more maori and that a class be set up where the um all the learning was in <,> in maori voc what is that oh yes <,,><&>3 what about pakeha we don't teach <,,> illiterate oh what was that one coughs <,> we've put down there <.>b to be biliterate eh be able to read and write in both languages mm but we don't actually teach the pakeha so how can we be teach how can we say that they're going to read and write in both languages <&>5:00 oh <{><[>yeah <[>well that's <[>although although it's not in it's um <,,> you know what i mean i mean <.>y we don't we don't teach them to read and write and that so how can we <.>s assure because they do that all in their own time you know it's all on their own back so we can't really say that they'll be biliterate in both languages when we don't teach one or the other we can't really we don't test them on either we just <,> you know no <{><[>well we we don't but on the other side too it's really the fact that they are able to use the skills of reading in english <[>how can you get around that <{1><[1>that's right we transfer all those transfer all those skills into <{2><[2>learning the english <[1>if we can clarify that <[2>yeah and they and they will <{><[>find word <[>that could be in the rationale part or you know and and because they're taught to read in maori anyway that's the first step of it and the fact that they have that ability to read they catch it from the dominant language which <&>6:00 is all out there <{><[>anyway um but that's right we actually don't test well we do in a way don't we really because <.>w when you think about what um sarah does for you know for <[>mm what she did with <{><[>rewi yes <[>rewi that that's a real possibility <{><[>too if we wanted to to sample the kids <,> <[>mm later on yes oh i might just use that with lucy <{><[>see how she <[>yeah cos i i think you could even sample hone i think sampling hone would would hemi would be a good one <{><[>yes <[>yeah would be fine he was doing it at six mm yes with and both languages there as well so you know possibly we could do the <&>five second pause while AN checks the microphone word kao kei te haere oh kei te haere? laughs <&>7:00 <,,><&>8 while we're up <,> get it open <,,><&>4 kei hea te pikitia mo tenei o konei o pirangi au nga pepa <,> oh all right if you are too i want to so our rationale we've got as far as parents demanding it mm demand well demanding the <{><[>total immersion <[>we could look at that in that whole sort of global thing about the the desire to revitalise the language and keep it going and and as a consequence the parents are you know word and that's how they felt really <{><[>not necessarily to revitalise the te reo per se but it's more time to get something that they missed out on really <[>mm well yes for a lot of them that's what it was i <&>8:00 mean er <,,> helen kept saying you know when i was having all that problem with mark saying i don't want to learn maori and helen had a think about it and she said well she felt sure that <,,> her grandmother would have been so pleased to know that the children were were learning maori so in spite of the fact that there was all this negativity going on she stuck with it and er because she thought that that was the right thing to do and now of course mark is just so comfortable being able to speak maori and knowing that he is maori there there's just there's just no negative feelings there anymore <&>9:00 on unlike the way he was when i first started in the class now mark just you know um <,,> speaks maori english he knows who to speak maori with he knows who he's he can speak english with and that's that whole comfortable feeling that he has about being maori and speaking maori and being comfortable with the tikanga and and all that sort of thing i suppose that's something else that the parents wanted too for their children well that particular parent and i guess the other ones too <,,> so they wanted te reo they wanted te reo they <{><[>wanted tikanga they wanted the <&>10:00 ngakau maori and er the wairua maori <,,><&>5 <[>tikanga they wanted um they also wanted the curriculum that every other child has as well don't <{><[>they didn't they okay <[>that's right yes they didn't want their children missing out on any of <{1><[1>those sorts of things although they they weren't too sure about they weren't too <{2><[2>sure about yeah mm <[1>yeah <[2>what it was yeah yeah they weren't too sure about that <{><[>at all <[>that's right but there were one or two things that they had reservations about like um they didn't they thought at first that they didn't want the children going to assembly because there was too much too much <{><[>english <[>isn't it amazing eh now that we look back over those <{1><[1>years how the things have sort of just <{2><[2>dissipated and calmed down <{3><[3>a lot i was even thinking about mark with helen as well because i i remember at the end of last year she was hellbent on taking <&>11:00 him to parliament if there wasn't tut you know the the teacher to take him at at er south wellington but when she looked at her boy and how happy he was to be going <{4><[4>to be going to be going to this school and how pleased he was with his uniform she stepped back and thought of him <[1>that's right <[2>yes <[3>mm <[4>mm <,> mm mm and said you know i'll let my boy <{1><[1>go i mean she's going to pester the hell out of him of course <{2><[2>because that's that's the way she is but at the same time she stepped back now i can remember when we were you know first in the first throws of this total immersion class how it was just hellbent <{3><[3>you know there was totally black or white there was no <{4><[4>greys in between them or any possibilities <{5><[5>so i you know i think they they've matured in a lot of ways <[1>mm <[2>yes <[3>that's right <[4>mm <[5>mm they have yes it's been a learning curve for all of them cos i know she was one of the ones who stopped me taking the children to the to the school library mm she didn't want the children to go to the school library because there weren't er <{><[>there weren't any maori books <[>any maori books mm and she didn't want them <&>12:00 exposed to english text english hearing english language er <{><[>for that reason <.>t <[>rather than looking at the fact that maybe the part of our job is to actually promote the the <{1><[1>maori books and actually <{2><[2>make sure that the library has more of those so that the children do want to go <[1>mm <[2>yeah yes and er and also you know i think inadvertently that they've realised with some of the kids how they've come with with er NO maori language background actually because their parents have little or no maori <{1><[1>and how they've actually survived really really well <{2><[2>and i think that sort of opened their eyes a lot <[1>actually <[2>mm well she she she made that point at one of our whanau meeting not the last one but the one before um she was saying she was telling the meeting that she found at one of the whanau hui at swiss that some of the children there who speak the most <&>13:00 maori who speak maori consistently are the children whose parents can't help them <{><[>and they're the ones who are making the best progress <[>aha and making a real effort <{><[>mm <[>yes so she said well you know she said however for her it's been um a learning thing because she was thinking also of when they started the total immersion class here they banned all those other children <{1><[1>and she particularly mentioned carol <{2><[2>er expelling carol from the <[1>mm <[2>yep yes from the class yes and she said looking back now that was a bad thing <{><[>to do <[>yes oh i'm pleased about that yes <{1><[1>and i i always said at the time that they <{2><[2>did the wrong <{3><[3>thing but they were you know like you say <[1>word <[2>yes <[3>yes mm all they saw was black everything was black or it was white mhm there were no grey areas no and and that was it and and <&>14:00 and you know even later on when they sort of calmed down a little bit and and we were talking about the possibility of asking carol to come back into the class well <{><[>of course carol had been you know moved out once <[>mm yeah she wasn't going to let that happen to herself again and neither did her mother mm and um you know the there are little things that happened in in the past that i start to think oh gosh i'm a little ashamed of those things <{><[>i mean they weren't of our making but still in all <[>mm mm they would impact on the situation but you know the the maturity that's come through since then the um the tolerance <{1><[1>that's definitely there <{2><[2>um the to support people who need support <[1>yeah <[2>exactly mm and so oh i think i think it's actually really come full circle they've grown with that haven't they they've they've really matured a lot since those days well certainly she has because i <&>15:00 haven't had too much feedback from the others oh i don't suppose those others have have learnt i don't know whether they've learnt anything from from <{><[>past experiences <[>and and and they're probably not um as analytical as as helen is no because i think she sat down and deliberately <{1><[1>thought about those sorts of things when mark started at at <&>name of school and she <{2><[2>just looked back over the all the years <{3><[3>that she'd been involved with total immersion <{4><[4>and then stepping back and and thinking well am i doing it for me or am i doing it for my child <[1>thought it through mm <[2>mm <[3>mm <[4>i think so mm and then decided well it the child was important so she'll let things go as they were at the beginning of the year instead of taking mark to parliament buildings and <{1><[1>sitting outside lockwood smith's <,> <{2><[2>door <[1>mm <&>16:00 <[2>on the other side of it though she's actually thought it through to the other end in saying well the way that i'm going to change everything of course is to get on to the board of trustees <{><[>and that's what i aim to do <[>yes mm which is great which will be good to push you know the whole whole process along so that she can then er get in there mm and start pushing for change gee that's another change of heart for helen too because she said well i'm tired of fighting <{><[>i'm not going to fight any more <[>mm yes but now you see she's decided that oh yes it's worth fighting for so i'm going to get myself onto the board of trustees and make changes from my position as a as a board of trustee member tut you know when we were looking about um what the parents want they wanted te reo they wanted tikanga they wanted ngakau maori they wanted wairua maori they wanted curriculum they also wanted i was trying to think how how we can say they wanted curriculum <&>17:00 from a maori perspective <,> or they wanted the maori perspective put into the curriculum mm which is it they wanted <,> the maori perspective put into put into the curriculum <{><[>yes <[>yeah <,,><&>4 which is what we've tried to do all the way along mm in you know in everything that we do <,,><&>4 so in in this um say for instance we're looking at the purpose of the um of the policy <,,> because all of that i think should be in the rationale as to WHY the class is necessary mm you know even to the the revitalisation of of of te <{><[>reo maori <[>of te reo maori <&>18:00 <,,><&>12 yep we could do THAT yeah and then bring in all these other things underneath er that revitalisation the purpose of the policy is really to <,,><&>4 er that's quite difficult isn't it to the purpose of the policy is it to make plain to people er <,,><&>4 WHY it's necessary to <.>ha have a total immersion class <,,><&>5 <{><[>um <[>or is is the purpose of the policy to actually say um how it operates why are we just really putting up a recitation on on really <&>19:00 what the total immersion class is all about <,> and it's not meant to be sliced into those different kinds of <,,><&>6 no i don't think you <.>can <,> i think it's it's for all of those <,,> for all of those reasons that we've <,> we've just talked about so we perhaps we should do it more of a rather than a policy we should really do a description of of the whole thing and what what happens and what it entails and who's <.>in who's involved in it and that it's operated by a whanau and that the whanau is um the parent group and they meet once a <.>mon all of that detail stuff yes that is not necessarily in every policy really so maybe that's what we need to put in <,,> well <{><[>shall we change our approach and and start looking at the fact that um well just just in the er <,> like the organisation <,> so if we were talking about the organisation of of er ngati kotahitanga we'd need to actually start by actually talking about how the name was chosen wouldn't we <[>well <&>20:00 inhales yes um and we cos at that time kath williams was was upstairs too and we were three classrooms sort of down that end of of the school and we needed to have a name and we tried to get a name from the children but we found that we were having to suggest all the <&>21:00 words ourselves we were saying well what about atawhai what about aroha what about this what about THAT and then those were the only they'd say yes yes yes yes yes that sounds good mm and then we decided that maybe because we were three classrooms together we should have a name that would bind us and er and after sort of saying well what do you think what could we have what should we be called we i don't know whether we actually suggested it or whether we all arrived at this name at the at the same time we chose ngati kotahitanga because it was <&>22:00 uniting three classrooms into one whanau <,,> and then of course our name was misunderstood <,> i was told that we were presumptuous choosing a name like that oh no <{><[>word <[>because laughs why's that well i think ngati er kotahitanga to her was the religious kotahitanga oh because she said that's cheeky i said why she said because it just is i said but that's how we see ourselves three three classes united because um because one of the teachers said to me well what does your name mean and i said well it's it's three classes joined as one mm <&>23:00 to make er to make three classes <{><[>into one family <[>to make one family mm and i said and that's why we named ourselves kotahitanga i said NOT because we were thinking of the religious kotahitanga wonder <{><[>if yeah <[>and i and i <.>s <{><[>and i said <[>i wonder where they get these ideas from because i mean kotahitanga is kotahitanga well that's how <{><[>WE saw it <[>whatever because it's kotahitanga's a movement but it's also er a thought process it's it's a way you feel about things <{><[>yeah <[>but i think to her it was a it was the the religious er a sort of a <,> pai marere yeah i <.>f i i think that's what it was she wouldn't say why she just said oh you know it's very <{><[>cheeky <[>it's a bit cheeky <{><[>laughs <[>yes and i said oh i don't think so i said not not in the the sense that WE've chosen our name okay well i'll put ngati kotahitanga the name was chosen to bind the group together into one whanau that's <{1><[1>right yes but it didn't it's <.>als we were a little bit jenny and i were um we had a very difficult time getting cath to to become one of us we said that well we'd come together for karakia in the morning and we'd come together for karakia in the afternoon and each class would take turns at leading karakia morning and afternoon and she didn't want to do that <{2><[2>and <,> oh she never she just said oh i <.>d i i really don't want to do that i mean this is one of the <.>dus discussions we had in our in our er syndicate meeting and we both said to her well if we're a whanau then that's how we have to operate <{3><[3>otherwise we're just whanau in name ONLY here are we room seven and eight working together and <[1>okay now <[2>word <[3>mm <&>25:00 you're over there you're over there and you're only part of us in name only you're <{1><[1>not really joining in as um a whanau working alongside us anyway she started to come round towards the towards the end of the year <{2><[2>but i think it was just a i think it was a um um tut a <{3><[3>confidence thing you know <{4><[4>she's just a bit <[1>mm <[2>do you think <[3>do you <[4>oh yeah or <.>on i was also thinking that maybe it was more because um i didn't choose the name it's not necessarily my choice could be too yes mm i don't know that could be part of it but the the name was chosen to bind the group together into one whanau <&>25:54