<&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies <&>Victoria University of Wellington <&>side one <&>3:13 er so er i just want to return er greetings and er then to er say thank you for the invitation er to come to talk about a subject which um er would er not have er received er or at least ten or fifteen years ago certainly this kind of er seminar er and the activity that er has focused on the treaty in the last two or three years would have been predicted er and it's um er it's a sign i think to everyone that the er treaty is here to stay and there <&>4:00 have got to be honourable solutions voc er if they er will not honour the solutions in my time then my children and my grandchildren er will be pursuing the same solutions i mean that's a lesson and a point that i'd like to make about <.>the the activity er surrounding the treaty er <.>the the debate that has taken er place as well as the voc er the um tut er actions that have been taken and not just on the streets but in the tribunal parlours probably not called that but meeting rooms and in er courtrooms and er and elsewhere so not only debate <.>but but er action in the last er er five years would not have been predicted and er the basis for the prediction <.>that tut <&>5:00 that er unless solutions are <.>found are SEEN to be honourable by the maori partner that er the er your children <,> certainly my children my grandchildren will be er er engaged in trying to ensure that er that honourable solutions are found <,> inhales um i was <.>v very impressed by the er the range of er topics er this er er term and the kind of er readings that er you have and i <,> have had to er look at and i understand that you've done some work on the er parliamentary er system as <.>it voc as it might be and er and i would er i hope that we will get into some discussion on that a <.>little a little later <.>an and hear what er <&>6:00 your thoughts er are voc the um tut er activity in which i've been er er involved focusing on the treaty is in PART a result <.>of of er associated i guess in part with the er er some of my activities here in the area of maori resource management um one of the questions there is er what resources er are maori ENTITLED TO er for the er er which they might manage and er we're seeing some of the recognition at least of the line that i've taken for some time and that is a proportion of the nation's budget er is to be seen as part of <&>7:00 the maori RESOURCE to be managed by maori people and er that's in the vicinity of um tut of er three and a half billion dollars um <,> yeah about four billion dollars <,,> um and the fact that it er isn't made available to er maori people er er to manage is a er a er failure to recognise er the er partnership in the treaty of waitangi and it is also gross financial mismanagement er by the er by treasury by the crown tut er and i'd like <.>t <&>8:00 to develop on that a little er further but er let me say at this point that er <.>the the resources that are managed by the crown for their partner with the er crown making decisions on policy and on implementation for their partner er is um best <.>described the management exercise or procedure er i believe is best described by um a word that er raukawa has coined gira g i r a er which er is getting it right accidentally <,,> getting it right accidently and that's serious it's extremely serious it's <.>ex serious for the partnership er it's serious for the whole nation because <.>if if it is true and <.>i there's <&>9:00 no fancy theory that's involved <.>it's <.>it's voc it's what occurs when one partner attempts to manage the affairs of the other partner about er whom they know little and the people of one culture managing the affairs of people of another culture er then they're bound to get it wrong unless they get it right accidently <,,> and that's serious for the partnership it's a denial of the treaty er and er it's at er some considerable expense as a matter of fact to the whole nation inhales and the other er grants area in which i've been involved is that with the new zealand maori council er where the activity er over the years has been fairly intense at least from a maori point of view but er not being heard <,> <&>10:00 not being heard the maori council <.>has over the years has taken um submission after submission to the er the crown in the company of others on occasion and er er hardly er noticed er any impact in er legislation on policy formulation or in administration and the big change came as er many of you will know when the government got it right accidently i believe and that's section nine of state owned enterprises act nineteen eighty six i believe that they had anticipated er more than er that serving as a er as a bit of window dressing it would not have been put into that <&>11:00 legislation <,,> now <,> that er opened the way for er maori council maori people to go to court which is not the place for partners to be talking over affairs <,> er it's not the place where maori people would choose to discuss inhales issues with partners they would much prefer on <.>a inhales on er a marae where it's er er it's open to everyone to have their say and for the issues to be deliberated for as long as it was necessary <.>to to get to a solution <,,> and that work took er the maori council into the er courts and fortunately they won if they hadn't they would have been bankrupt er in each of these cases maori council has gone out onto a limb because <.>t to incur debts of hundred and fifty to three <&>12:00 hundred and fifty thousand dollars <,> there's no income or income of a hundred and twenty thousand a year voc so the er put the maori council in the courts and fortunately they won inhales they won er also in the er in the er er forestry case that er followed the er in a sense er the victory in the fisheries er case and most recently er a victory er <.>over the radiocommunications er policy the country and the tender of radio frequencies inhales so then <.>m my other main interest then has come from work with the er new zealand maori council on some of those issues that have been raised inhales the er i think it's probably fair to <&>13:00 say that um <,> voc that er my observation is that er we've been too ready to negotiate er and um the tino rangatiratanga question has not been dealt with <,,> and it's possible that the er frequencies er <&>drawls debate will be the first occasion when the tino rangatiratanga er question will be fully debated <,> er we are yet to have a claim on the parliamentary system but that's not too far voc away er and that will be the er another occasion then potentially <&>14:00 when the tino rangatiratanga question will be er debated voc now er jonathan asked me i'd just say a few words on the on the <.>f um <,> tut frequencies <,> tut question and then er i'd like to sit down <.>and and er have some questions and we'll see if we can er enter into some useful discussion i'm sure from my point of view it will be useful can't guarantee that from your point of view voc um the er maori council and the nga kaiwhaka pumau i te reo that's the maori language board voc the body that er runs te upoko o te ika the um radio station in wellington managed by maori people <&>15:00 and there is <.>a inclination then to call it a maori station but they don't call the others pakeha stations laughs it's run by maori people and there's eighty percent maori language voc um took a claim to the er the er waitangi tribunal after some months of er discussion with the ministry of commerce on their proposed radiocommunications legislation <,,> and made absolutely no ground on the tino rangatiratanga question that er the er we argued that the crown had no er monopoly over the technology er and that er maori <.>people er that maori partner has a right to develop and <&>16:00 on top of that is that er the er the space er on the land er which we stand the space above it and the space below it or what is er below it is part of the maori world and that er the er the crown should not er er IMPORT er a cultural view of those resources what we stand on and what is above it and what is below it <.>a in order to er PRESUME authority over those spaces and indeed er ownership er er of er the airwaves tut or the ultimate er and <&>17:00 UNDISTURBED er authority to er sell the airwaves <.>without or ACCESS to the airwaves without making adequate provision er for the partner OR put it another way without hearing from the partner what space that partner er was prepared to make available for tender <,> the crown has taken the view that it has the authority to reserve some never mind about the partner having the authority to free up some er which is the tino rangatiratanga question er the authority to free up some er access to airwaves that's the maori view voc the er crown view is that they have the right er to <&>18:00 reserve some if they wish voc um the case has er NOT debated the tino rangatiratanga question when mister justice heron er considered it last week or the week before voc er the week before i guess um he er was presented er with er <,> an argument that the partner was entitled to a <.>com a broadcasting system that required access to these er frequencies inhales and er that there was inadequate er provision <,> and er <,> he er was aware that the waitangi tribunal <&>19:00 had er recommended to the crown that they not proceed with the tender the crown declined to take that advice he was aware of er that and er of the importance of broadcasting to <,,> this part of the population he did not deal with the tino rangatiratanga question <,> he did not say that er yes maori er you hold tino rangatiratanga inhales he did not say yes crown you hold er sovereignty er but he rather looked at the er at er the er case for a better broadcasting system for maori people AND the <&>20:00 request of the waitangi tribunal inhales um tut now i wonder if that's <{><[>er enough from me <.>and and then we can turn to some discussion here <[>that's good um thank you very much <&>20:11