<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>0:08</&>
  

  <WSC#DGI056:0005:IP>
      <?>just</?> the way things are <&>0:09</&> <&>section in maori
      not transcribed</&> <&>0:16</&>

  <WSC#DGI056:0010:IP>
      i hope you had a good flight down in in the rough weather and
      into the southerly wind from <indig=Maori>tamaki makaurau</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI056:0015:IP>
      it's a pleasure to welcome you on to <indig=Maori>te upoko o te
      ika</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI056:0020:IP>
      we could have done this er off air seeing as we were running
      late this morning but no what the heck

  <WSC#DGI056:0025:IP>
      we very rarely get you away from your schedule and er live on
      <indig=Maori>te upoko o te ika</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI056:0030:IP>
      we got <title><indig=Maori>hui</indig=Maori></title> coming up
      on television so it's my pleasure to welcome you to
      <indig=Maori>te upoko</indig=Maori> this morning

  <WSC#DGI056:0035:IP>
      <indig=Maori>nau mai haere mai</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI056:0040:RE>
      <indig=Maori>tena koe</indig=Maori> piripi

  <WSC#DGI056:0045:IP>
      ripeka what's a good television programme

  <WSC#DGI056:0050:IP>
      what's your what's your favourite of have you seen er have you
      seen anything that's inspired you in maori television
      programming lately

  <WSC#DGI056:0055:RE>
      <drawls>um</drawls> i think that some of the er some <&>1:00</&>
      of the um some parts of er <title><indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori></title>
      um deserve i think some merit

  <WSC#DGI056:0060:RE>
      some parts of it like all other television programmes probably
      er have got a way to go before <O>inhales</O> they get um a
      rating above five in my books but um i think it brings me
      pleasure it it gives pleasure to see um the kind of er
      programming that they've come up with in the schedule <O>swallows</O>
      on sunday mornings given <O>inhales</O> i suppose the er limited
      amount of resources and access that we do have at the moment

  <WSC#DGI056:0065:IP>
      ripeka um i didn't introduce you with your title

  <WSC#DGI056:0070:IP>
      you're now with the <indig=Maori>iwi</indig=Maori> consultancy

  <WSC#DGI056:0075:RE>
      yes i have a consultancy of my own and i still do some work in
      broadcasting for television new zealand and for the
      <indig=Maori>iwi</indig=Maori> television trust <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0080:IP>
      and your title in television new zealand was <{><[>personal
      assistant</[>

  <WSC#DGI056:0085:RE>
      <[>i was i</[></{> was the er cultural and planning assistant to
      the chief executive of t v n z for <&>2:00</&> <O>inhales</O>
      four years and er i'm still retained on a stringer basis as a
      consultant to the chief executive and also to the director of
      television services to <?>brent harman</?>

  <WSC#DGI056:0090:IP>
      <indig=Maori>kia ora</indig=Maori> ripeka

  <WSC#DGI056:0095:IP>
      well <O>inhales</O> er we've jumped away from just what we
      opened on which is good television programmes

  <WSC#DGI056:0100:IP>
      let's stay with it for a minute

  <WSC#DGI056:0105:IP>
      now you mentioned the sunday morning ones <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0110:RE>
      mhm <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0115:IP>
      they've discovered humour <{><[><?>do you think</?></[>

  <WSC#DGI056:0120:RE>
      <[>well <.>they</.></[></{> they've discovered humour <O>coughs</O>
      <.>an</.> in a fashion

  <WSC#DGI056:0125:RE>
      um i believe that er one of the biggest um i suppose
      restrictions on on maori television is that it is to still to
      some extent er in terms of the <title><indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori></title>
      format confined to the television studio and er my own personal
      belief anyway is that some of the greatest humour occurs in its
      natural environment in the <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori> and
      um <O>swallows</O> i think in all the <.>telev</.> maori
      television proposals that have been er promulgated over
      <&>3:00</&> the years that um recognition of of where maori
      activity takes place is er one of the key elements and obviously
      going to be one of the key elements to i suppose er a more
      developed form of maori television and in that respect i think
      that <.>the</.> the humour content or the comic content if it
      can be termed that of <title><indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori></title>
      and er well even <laughs>to an extent</laughs> sometimes i
      suppose <title><indig=Maori>te karere</indig=Maori></title> even
      encapsulates it in er the odd item but um i think that there's
      always going to be a limitation um on maori television and its
      development so long as it's it's confined to the artificial
      <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori> environment <O>swallows</O>

  <WSC#DGI056:0130:RE>
      the sooner we're able to get maori television out to where maori
      activity is taking place in the community i think then we'll
      begin to start seeing the diversity in in the maori community
      rather than the kind of i don't know the the show case models

  <WSC#DGI056:0135:RE>
      i mean the show case models <&>4:00</&> and that are fine for
      putting a positive reflection up to the world but i think the
      true diversity in <.>the</.> and the i suppose the tapestry of
      our own culture will only be revealed once we take the cameras
      out of the restrictions of the studio and we start putting them
      into er communities into places where maori activity is taking
      place

  <WSC#DGI056:0140:IP>
      ripeka we had whatarangi in here just before you and er we're in
      a cycle now where after the nineteen eighties these treaty the
      treaty court case for good or for bad i guess has has perhaps
      raised our hopes a little bit although <.>temp</.> we're
      tempered very much with the the response of the crown <?>that</?>
      the economic situation is that er we can't build expensive
      things like maori television <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0145:RE>
      mhm <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0150:IP>
      should we be getting our hopes up

  <WSC#DGI056:0155:IP>
      what do you think

  <WSC#DGI056:0160:RE>
      um one um reading through the judgement as i as i did before i
      came down this morning um and i've read it <?>on</?> a number of
      times um i think <&>5:00</&> it was quite clear in in the er
      high court judge's mind that um there has been a lot said and
      very little done in fact about maori television

  <WSC#DGI056:0165:RE>
      er one could also say the same to an extent about maori radio
      but i think it's quite clear or it was quite clear to me from er
      from the judgement er recently regarding the broadcasting assets
      case that there <.>r</.> still remains a lot more to be done in
      terms of maori television <O>inhales</O>

  <WSC#DGI056:0170:RE>
      now if one is to take into account consistently the economic
      situation <O>swallows</O> then that is clearly one of the
      practical i suppose er <O>voc</O> things which the judge
      envisaged should be taken into account but i think from the
      crown's point of view if it is to be used eternally as the
      excuse for not doing anything then in the final analysis the
      court's going to look back at that and say well there is only so
      long that one can use <&>6:00</&> economic restrictions to say
      that the crown was unable to do something about maori television

  <WSC#DGI056:0175:RE>
      i believe that er the crown CAN er despite the harsh economic
      the macro economic situation that prevails at the moment that
      there is possibility for er looking at the existing level of
      resources in the whole broadcasting area and restructuring and
      retargeting some of those resources in order to begin meeting
      some of the maori television objectives

  <WSC#DGI056:0180:RE>
      it's not quite simply an argument of <O>swallows</O> you know
      we've got a huge deficit for the country um to be looking at and
      that should be the priority to <.>re</.> reduce that and that we
      can't afford to go spending money on <.>ex</.> expensive or even
      rather inexpensive maori television proposals

  <WSC#DGI056:0185:RE>
      we should be really looking at where there are resources
      targeted already and er whether or not we can refocus and
      retarget those resources

  <WSC#DGI056:0190:IP>
      <O>voc</O> do we need a new channel or could we do <&>7:00</&>
      it er by having an increase of programmes like <title><indig=Maori>te
      karere</indig=Maori></title> on t v one

  <WSC#DGI056:0195:RE>
      um i think we need to go back one step further piripi um and i
      think that <O>voc</O> one of the strengths er in terms of
      looking at this er er in terms of political responsibility at
      the moment one of the strengths er in the maori court at the
      moment is obviously the high court decision and that decision is
      quite clear about television

  <WSC#DGI056:0200:RE>
      it's quite clear in my mind anyway as to er what judge mcgechan
      um er decided upon on that case and i think that er to begin
      with it is envisaged that um and it is taken and accepted in the
      judgement that a secure place to er quote i suppose a vogue um
      um phrase in in the er in the judgement it is taken and accepted
      that um there should be er security for maori language and
      culture in television

  <WSC#DGI056:0205:RE>
      i <&>8:00</&> think the judgement canvassed a number of means by
      which exposure <?>of</?> the maori language and culture could be
      achieved but i think it leaves it largely up to the parties

  <WSC#DGI056:0210:RE>
      it does not stray beyond i suppose its brief and leaves it still
      up to the parties to negotiate i suppose a settlement that can
      be achieved on an incremental basis <O>inhales</O> <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI056:0215:RE>
      i believe that maori television can and and will become a
      reality over <.>ti</.> over a time over a period of time um and
      i think that one of the things that is standing in the way of of
      progress on discussions between er between the crown and and
      maori essentially and let's be explicit about the crown between
      the minister of broadcasting and maori is um the issue of
      whether or not the crown does want er to negotiate <O>tut</O> a
      um er to negotiate a solution <&>9:00</&> to this issue

  <WSC#DGI056:0220:RE>
      i mean <O>clears throat</O> if one is to presume that a a
      solution is in sight and that maori television is possible then
      <.>y</.> you've got to presume there's some will on the part of
      the parties er to go down the road of <.>disi</.> discussion and
      to reach <&>pronounced reek</&> a solution that er might involve
      a bit of give and take on either part at the end of the day but
      no doubt it's <.>solu</.> a solution at the end of it <O>swallows</O>
      so i'd say first of all that we need to clear er the air or that
      er the crown and and the minister of broadcasting needs to er
      indicate that there is an intention um on the part of the crown
      and er whom he acts on behalf of to negotiate um a series and
      and a strategy that will develop maori television over a period
      of time

  <WSC#DGI056:0225:RE>
      um i've heard <.>n</.> all sorts of er <O>clears throat</O> talk
      about er what might be a good solution what might <.>be</.>
      might not be a good solution

  <WSC#DGI056:0230:RE>
      um i think it would be <&>10:00</&> true to say of this issue as
      of any other treaty issue that um it's not a one stop shop that
      er maori television doesn't just involve or in terms of the
      solution <O>swallows</O> to this current claim that maori
      television doesn't just involve the establishment of a maori
      television channel whatever that channel is

  <WSC#DGI056:0235:RE>
      i think it it it er involves as is indicated in in the decision
      a series of incremental steps that may um take into account the
      extent <.>or</.> of resources er the extent of er commitment or
      the extent of guarantees that there are in place at the moment
      and building upon those that it's quite clear that there needs
      to be there is a base in the industry at the moment that needs
      to be built upon but i think the first premise is the minister
      has to indicate that there is a commitment to find a solution to
      find settlement and i must say in all honesty that <&>11:00</&>
      that indication has not been given

  <WSC#DGI056:0240:RE>
      it <.>i</.> it was not given despite the several opportunities
      before this case even went to litigation <O>tut</O> and er i
      don't think that that <.>is</.> intention has been flagged in
      the <.>re</.> in the er most recent document from the minister
      so i've put the ball fairly and squarely back in his court to
      indicate you know <{><[>does</[> he want to er negotiate some
      sort of outcome or not

  <WSC#DGI056:0245:IP>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI056:0250:IP>
      yes <.>ri</.> er ripeka i'd like to ask you about your own
      experience er on one or two fronts

  <WSC#DGI056:0255:IP>
      firstly the experience in t v n z

  <WSC#DGI056:0260:IP>
      you were there alongside julian mounter <{1><[1>the new</[1>
      director general

  <WSC#DGI056:0265:IP>
      a key period <{2><[2>those</[2> those four years powerful people
      on the board good advocates like tipene oregan <{3><[3>and
      others</[3>

  <WSC#DGI056:0270:IP>
      what's the progress you're looking back on things like you know
      the new t v department <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0275:RE>
      <[1>mhm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI056:0280:RE>
      <[2>mhm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGI056:0285:RE>
      <[3>mhm</[3></{3>

  <WSC#DGI056:0290:RE>
      mhm <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0295:IP>
      <indig=Maori>kimihia</indig=Maori> scheme

  <WSC#DGI056:0300:RE>
      um i think on reflection in the four years that i worked for
      television new zealand fulltime um er that i went into the
      organisation with some clear objectives of my own um that had
      <&>12:00</&> been shaped and i suppose refined too to some
      extent by by julian and the wishes that he had in terms of
      developing maori television

  <WSC#DGI056:0305:RE>
      i think we were um both very keen about two or three major um i
      suppose major thrusts <.>that</.> <.>th</.> and major objectives
      that we wanted to achieve in a very short period of time <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0310:IP>
      did you manage to get some <{><[><?>clearances</?></[> and
      promises and a timetable

  <WSC#DGI056:0315:RE>
      <[><O>clears throat</O></[></{>

  <WSC#DGI056:0320:RE>
      um what from television <quickly>new zealand in the time that i
      was there</quickly>

  <WSC#DGI056:0325:RE>
      yeah in the time that i was there the the three objectives i
      think that i did or two objectives two or three objectives that
      i did achieve was one to increase the er programming output and
      it did increase over those years albeit in and and when you
      measure it up in terms of how fast and how rapid the change and
      how rapid and and er how much um i suppose nonmaori programming
      <&>13:00</&> increased at times er against overseas programming
      especially the increase in maori production would have still
      paled somewhat into not so much into oblivion but pales er a
      second and very poor third alongside the increases in other
      types of programming <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI056:0330:RE>
      nevertheless there was an increase in in maori programme over
      that period

  <WSC#DGI056:0335:RE>
      i think there was also a significant increase in the skill level
      within the industry and i'm i contributed a great effort to that
      in terms of the <indig=Maori>kimihia</indig=Maori> programme and
      that programme still boasts a retention rate of some seventy
      percent in the industry after <.>fo</.> er still retained in the
      industry <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0340:IP>
      <softly>goodness me that's <{><[>high</softly></[>

  <WSC#DGI056:0345:RE>
      <[>after</[></{> four years and i think it <.>d</.> <.>it</.>
      <.>it</.> <.>des</.> it's worthy of mention because <O>tut</O>
      on <.>an</.> on a domestic it was one it was the biggest er
      broadcasting training programme ever embarked upon in new
      zealand and i would also um and run the risk of of contradiction
      say that it's probably one of the biggest if not the biggest
      indigenous broadcasting programme <&>14:00</&> ever embarked
      upon in the world as well <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0350:IP>
      would i be right in saying that that retention figure has come
      up again

  <WSC#DGI056:0355:IP>
      some who went out after the one year have come back into
      television <{><[><?>and</?></[> have got jobs <latch>

  <WSC#DGI056:0360:RE>
      <[><O>voc</O></[></{>

  <WSC#DGI056:0365:RE>
      er some of them have have come in and out er on a <.>w</.> one
      off production basis

  <WSC#DGI056:0370:RE>
      some of them have gone to t v three

  <WSC#DGI056:0375:RE>
      some of er them have been engaged in independent production
      houses

  <WSC#DGI056:0380:RE>
      some of them have started independent production houses of their
      own so i think from that kind of kernel of of development of
      seed of development that a lot has happened from it

  <WSC#DGI056:0385:RE>
      however we must also put it back into context in terms of the
      rate at which er you know the nonmaori achievement pakeha
      achievement has been in terms of acquisition of skills in the
      industry so i think that always er one in in terms of looking at
      this whole issue globally one must always be tempered by um how
      bigger and brighter and better the opportunities have grown er
      for other people in the industry and er i think to an extent
      maori people not just in <&>15:00</&> <indig=Maori>kimihia</indig=Maori>
      but er in other programmes have been able to cash in on some of
      those opportunities but i think what maori broadcasters what
      i've always been conscious of from before i even went into
      television is that maori broadcasters are looking <O>inhales</O>
      i suppose to er play in the great big orchestra of maori
      television or radio together rather than as disparate pieces in
      a in a very big and er <O>inhales</O> and expanding and
      shrinking and expanding and shrinking er industry

  <WSC#DGI056:0390:IP>
      it is encouraging

  <WSC#DGI056:0395:IP>
      there's some young talent there

  <WSC#DGI056:0400:IP>
      you can <{1><[1>see</[1> the spread of it across the independent
      production houses

  <WSC#DGI056:0405:IP>
      the credits roll up on programmes like <title>funny business</title>

  <WSC#DGI056:0410:IP>
      <{2><[2>lot of maori in there <unclear>word</unclear></[2>
      dozens and dozens of maori people lot of them young <{3><[3>out</[3>
      there

  <WSC#DGI056:0415:IP>
      <.>y</.> you'd be encouraged by that

  <WSC#DGI056:0420:RE>
      <[1>mm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI056:0425:RE>
      <[2>mm yes yes yes</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGI056:0430:RE>
      <[3><unclear>word</unclear></[3></{3>

  <WSC#DGI056:0435:RE>
      oh i'm <.>a</.> immensely encouraged by it but i think that what
      we need is <O>inhales</O> i mean it's almost as if like we need
      a second third fourth fifth and sixth offensive to ensure that
      <&>16:00</&> the the er i suppose the growth continues

  <WSC#DGI056:0440:RE>
      er we should have repeated the programme in the second and third
      year

  <WSC#DGI056:0445:RE>
      um we were fortunate i think that er with <indig=Maori>kimihia</indig=Maori>
      that at the end of the programme that was the <.>d</.> exactly
      at the end of the programme was the time when t v n z downsized
      and became an s o e

  <WSC#DGI056:0450:IP>
      that's my next question

  <WSC#DGI056:0455:IP>
      what would you say to those that er ended <indig=Maori>kimihia</indig=Maori>
      with er slightly embittered view of t v n z that they went in as
      sort of kind of brown cannon fodder and then they didn't get a
      job

  <WSC#DGI056:0460:IP>
      there were one or two bitter <{><[>voices afterwards</[>

  <WSC#DGI056:0465:RE>
      <[><O>inhales</O> oh</[></{> oh i think there's always going to
      be one or two embittered voices in any programme no matter how
      much one does to ensure that er or to try and retain a positive
      focus in that <?>fort</?> and um you know i mean individuals are
      entitled to their view

  <WSC#DGI056:0470:RE>
      i i i disagree

  <WSC#DGI056:0475:RE>
      i think that um there were some aspects of the programme that
      like any other programme could have required improvement but i
      think we were there to ensure that a critical mass of maori
      people were trained and brought <&>pronounced bought</&> into
      <&>17:00</&> the industry and retained in the industry and i
      think in terms of those objectives being the principal
      objectives of the programme we achieved them er that we have got
      a larger retention rate but retention rates and bums on seats
      isn't about isn't what the programme was about

  <WSC#DGI056:0480:RE>
      it was there to ensure that um at the end of the day over a
      period of time that that those um <.>tha</.> er those people
      that came into the industry would have an impact upon what the
      industry produced and er i think that the examples that you've
      just quoted of <title>funny business</title> of people <O>inhales</O>
      working er and er working in directing and producing in
      programmes and that um is is probably proof of the pudding is
      that they've gone to the production end of the scale made their
      impact there and they need now to progress even further <&>pronounced
      firster</&> further <&>17:40</&>
</I>
