<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>0:52</&>
  

  <WSC#DGI065:0005:JS>
      very <.>trad</.> er middle class kiwi fellow er who <,> <O>tut</O>
      wanted <,> to do all the right things and was expected by family
      to do the right things

  <WSC#DGI065:0010:JS>
      the right things were er <,> doing er reasonably well at school
      <O>tut</O> this was expected er <O>coughs</O> playing every game
      in sight <O>tut</O> <,> but particularly getting into the first
      fifteen er but also playing cricket boxing running swimming the
      lot and <,> being praised for the achievement and reinforced in
      doing those things and this was only <,> <O>tut</O> this was
      only what was expected of people of my age in the middle and
      late thirties

  <WSC#DGI065:0015:JS>
      er it that was how most of the people i knew behaved boys <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0020:JS>
      it was rather different for girls looking back <O>tut</O>
      <&>2:00</&> um and one also had the fairly traditional views <O>tut</O>
      <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0025:JS>
      er they were of our relationship with um <O>tut</O> what my
      mother referred to as home that was england <O>tut</O> though
      she had been born in australia <O>tut</O> and had no direct
      connections with england for goodness knows how long back <,> er
      that at school we sang regularly songs like land of hope and
      glory and er <O>tut</O> <,> the the imperial songs <O>tut</O> um
      <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI065:0030:JS>
      we were fed a diet of <,> imperial history <O>tut</O> of er <O>tut</O>
      the royal family <,> of loyalty to the crown <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0035:JS>
      <.>th</.> this was taken for granted

  <WSC#DGI065:0040:JS>
      this was what we breathed <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0045:JS>
      now <,,> we were also taught to be kind to animals i suppose and
      do our <O>tut</O> our social duties <O>coughs</O> <O>tut</O> um
      <O>tut</O> <&>3:00</&> that we owed things to society <,>
      although how general that was i don't know <,> and then came the
      war and <O>tut</O> suddenly the world was really a very
      different place <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI065:0050:JS>
      one of the powerful influences was being on a merchant ship
      sailing from liverpool down to southern africa around the
      african coast and and back up so you had a LONG time at sea <,>
      <O>tut</O> and there was a a very sharp minded radio operator on
      the ship and he and i <,> gradually got into the habit of
      talking

  <WSC#DGI065:0055:JS>
      now at this stage i might have been er <O>tut</O> <,> twenty two
      perhaps it was a year or two on <,> and he probed me he was
      older than i was by some years <O>tut</O> but he probed me what
      i believed in and i'd say goofy things looking back like er ah
      to be back in england <&>4:00</&> in the spring and so on

  <WSC#DGI065:0060:JS>
      you see i had a girlfriend there which partly explained it um
      <O>tut</O> and he LOOKED at me one day and he said <O>coughs</O>
      <O>tut</O> do you know what you're talking about and <,> then he
      proceeded to let me have it <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0065:JS>
      he said you want to get back there

  <WSC#DGI065:0070:JS>
      you think it's a great place

  <WSC#DGI065:0075:JS>
      it is the WORST SNOB class ridden society the world has ever
      seen

  <WSC#DGI065:0080:JS>
      it's full of GROSS injustice and he proceeded to go on and tell
      me all about this

  <WSC#DGI065:0085:JS>
      this was a total revelation <,,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0090:JS>
      suddenly i was seeing the world through somebody else's eyes

  <WSC#DGI065:0095:JS>
      i don't know whether he was a marxist <O>coughs</O> <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI065:0100:JS>
      he was certainly a radical thinker

  <WSC#DGI065:0105:JS>
      <.>i</.> i imagine that he had been influenced by the <,> left
      wing book club kind of thinking of the prewar days er <O>tut</O>
      which helped people to see the their own country and themselves
      in a different light and he laid it on me <,> <O>tut</O> and
      after that <,> i <&>5:00</&> progressively saw things in a
      different light but as the war went on <,> i had <,> increasing
      doubts <,> about that as a way of settling international
      problems er and particularly when it got right to the end <,>
      and the sting had gone out of it and we were just waiting
      sitting and waiting and talking amongst ourselves <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0110:JS>
      i can remember being in the red sea one night with a a friend
      and there was <.>a</.> a plane i suspect an italian spotter
      plane buzzing around away up there somewhere in the dark and <,>
      a friend of mine saying what the hell's he think he doing and
      then he after a while he said and i wonder what he's thinking
      about and suddenly it was a person there you see and here we
      were <&>6:00</&> he he might have been going to drop something
      on us who knows but here we were human beings strangers <O>tut</O>
      thrust into a situation where we were going to do each other
      harm and what for <,> and that doubt kept niggling and niggling
      and niggling until when i came home <O>tut</O> i really had made
      up my mind pretty well that i wouldn't have anything to do with
      any more <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0115:JS>
      <laughs>i didn't know whether i'd have the guts to stand out
      when it came to the point</laughs> and particularly when <.>i</.>
      i joined a theatre group unity theatre in wellington <O>tut</O>
      and it had er a number of people who had been conscientious
      objectors during the war and we used to talk i became very
      friendly with one of them in particular <,> and we used to talk
      about it and he said well after what i've gone through if
      there's another one i think i might have a look at it and i said
      nat <laughs>i'm quite the reverse</laughs> but i don't know
      whether i'd have the guts that YOU had if it came to the point
      <,> <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI065:0120:JS>
      it's not a question now of course at my <&>7:00</&> age but it
      bothered me for years

  <WSC#DGI065:0125:JS>
      um <O>tut</O> so how did i come back <,,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0130:JS>
      i really was no longer a fan of the royal family or the imperial
      tradition <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0135:JS>
      er i thought of myself as uneQUIvocally as a new zealander <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0140:JS>
      er if anyone had said referred to england as home i would've
      snorted at them <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0145:JS>
      um i think i was just part of a whole generation of new
      zealanders who a hundred years later <,> <O>tut</O> fully
      accepted themselves without qualification as new zealanders

  <WSC#DGI065:0150:JS>
      <.>this</.> this was er our place

  <WSC#DGI065:0155:JS>
      this was our <indig=Maori>turangawaewae</indig=Maori> and we
      were it for better or worse <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0160:JS>
      um that the <,> the kind of religious beliefs traditional
      religious beliefs <&>8:00</&> i'd <,> grown up with and
      practised seriously they'd just been blown away like like dust

  <WSC#DGI065:0165:JS>
      they just didn't <,> seem to be relevant to me any longer <O>tut</O>
      er

  <WSC#DGI065:0170:IN>
      what were those traditional beliefs <{><[><?>you had</?></[>

  <WSC#DGI065:0175:JS>
      <[>i was anglican</[></{> <O>coughs</O>

  <WSC#DGI065:0180:JS>
      i was brought up as an anglican sang in the choir <,> taught
      sunday school <,> was confirmed and i practised it very
      seriously

  <WSC#DGI065:0185:JS>
      i can remember at my confirmation er concentrating my mind
      totally into this this experience but even THEN i think in
      retrospect wondering um <O>tut</O> <,> why it wasn't er a more
      illuminating experience why i didn't feel um joyful or
      transported by it and i think looking back again that one of the
      reasons that i went on doing it <O>tut</O> and all my friends
      male and female did er was that that's what you DID at
      <&>9:00</&> that time so you you just all did it together er

  <WSC#DGI065:0190:JS>
      it was part of the tradition <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0195:JS>
      i don't KNOW if that's the tradition with young people now

  <WSC#DGI065:0200:JS>
      i suspect not nearly so much but in our village and khandallah
      was a village then that's all of us who were er anglicans all
      went off and so we did these things together just as we went to
      er dances together and so forth er and the the religion was part
      of it a kind of a background to it but if you took it at all
      seriously <.>you</.> <,> i think you had to examine it <,> <O>tut</O>
      and i did examine it i suppose and just found that it really
      didn't offer me anything any longer and again of course being in
      the services with um <O>tut</O> er fairly fundamental and
      raucous <laughs>attitudes to all sorts of things around you</laughs>
      er you know a STRONG and healthy <&>10:00</&> scepticism of men
      in war um about everything

  <WSC#DGI065:0205:JS>
      they don't <,> they're not easily convinced and so er being very
      young amidst older people you're influenced by this <O>tut</O>
      and i think that helps you to look at things afresh and change
      your mind and decide where you stand on things <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI065:0210:JS>
      i came back i suppose a humanist <,> <O>tut</O> and i'm
      certainly er that's what i am now

  <WSC#DGI065:0215:JS>
      <.>i</.> i just have no doubt that <,> everything that happens
      here and eventually perhaps in the universe um <O>tut</O> is our
      responsibility that there's nobody else to carry the can <,> and
      whether people choose to believe in something outside of that
      <O>tut</O> er <,> <.>a</.> <.>w</.> as a kind of lode star well
      <.>tha</.> that's fine

  <WSC#DGI065:0220:JS>
      i'm very happy for them <,> um <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0225:JS>
      i don't i can't be persuaded that there is anything else there
      <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0230:JS>
      i am persuaded by <,> <O>tut</O> oh and this is one of the the
      real influences in my life was reading um <,> <&>11:00</&> <O>tut</O>
      taia de shanan the great jesuit philosopher <,> er <,> who
      argued that <,> the basic force in the universe is <,> an
      evolutionary one that is everything is in a process of change
      <O>tut</O> and that through that force <,> life appeared and
      developed and produced us and he says that by some accident we
      have a central nervous system which allows us to be er <O>tut</O>
      introspective <,> to be able to observe ourselves and everything
      else and that this <,> places on us the responsibility to see
      that future evolution future change <O>tut</O> is guided by some
      moral or ethical basis and the only source of that is us and
      that's just our central nervous <&>12:00</&> system and <.>th</.>
      <.>th</.> that's our burden and er <,> i remember reading <,> a
      lot of french philosophy at one stage when they were <,> <O>tut</O>
      the french were arguing furiously about this and all saying the
      same thing that one of the the tragedies of modern man <O>tut</O>
      is the loss of the medieval church the medieval faith because
      that explained everything <,> and since then we've been
      wrestling with how we accept the responsibility <O>tut</O> that
      was formerly carried by that church and that we haven't really
      come to it but we HAVE to i mean it's whatever happens is our is
      on US um

  <WSC#DGI065:0235:JS>
      the world is a reflection of US <,> and everything in it and
      there's no cop out <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0240:JS>
      the buck really DOES stop here <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0245:JS>
      now all of those things <?>a long</?> answer to er what was the
      influence of the war i think <&>13:00</&> it had i stayed here
      and had there been no war <,> er my guess is that i would have
      um been influenced by <,> <O>tut</O> going to university as
      people were then into some sort of radicalism but i'm not sure
      if the change would have been er quite as dramatic <,> not just
      on me but on er most of my friends and acquaintances and
      generation

  <WSC#DGI065:0250:IN>
      does what does your humanism have to say about um <O>tut</O>
      survival of the fittest

  <WSC#DGI065:0255:JS>
      i think some i'm i'm sure <.>th</.> that there is um a great
      deal IN THIS but it is NOT an absolute

  <WSC#DGI065:0260:JS>
      this is one of the mistakes i think that that people er assumed
      as a result of darwinian philosophy that er the only way in
      which we survived er really was by tooth and claw by competition
      and by the toughest who would survive

  <WSC#DGI065:0265:JS>
      in fact biology no longer believes that <&>14:00</&> <,> um that
      we survive and creatures other than humans survive er at least
      as much by their capacity to cooperate as by their capacity to
      compete <O>tut</O> and if anything <,> i think my inclination is
      to see the that the the capacity to cooperate <,> is greater
      than the capacity to compete and um <O>tut</O> i think that
      humanists would hold this position very strongly not only if you
      accept yourself as a humanist there is a responsibility on you
      to recognise that what happens in the world is <,> at least
      partly to do with you <O>tut</O> and that

  <WSC#DGI065:0270:IN>
      your responsibility

  <WSC#DGI065:0275:JS>
      yeah sure that's your responsibility and that you you should
      have a go at trying to change it

  <WSC#DGI065:0280:JS>
      i mean if the <O>coughs</O> <O>tut</O> if we're tearing
      <&>15:00</&> the world apart because <.>we're</.> <,> we're
      failing to recognise the environmental imperatives then we ought
      to try and do something about it ourselves in our OWN lives

  <WSC#DGI065:0285:JS>
      it isn't necessary to go to the street and wave banners

  <WSC#DGI065:0290:JS>
      it isn't necessary to take petitions to parliament or to join
      societies <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0295:JS>
      what is necessary is to do something about it in your life that
      is um you don't throw bottles away or paper away

  <WSC#DGI065:0300:JS>
      you you recycle them if you can things of that kind um <,> <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI065:0305:JS>
      you try not to foul the environment er <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0310:JS>
      if you smoke you you try and stop smoking because that's an
      environmental hazard that's harming other people <O>tut</O> er
      <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0315:JS>
      i think <.>it's</.> it's if you go on and join societies and
      become an activist <,> in your society so much the better but
      that that's what a humanist would say

  <WSC#DGI065:0320:JS>
      now all that requires cooperation not just acceptance of
      responsibility but the acceptance of the need to cooperate with
      other people <&>16:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI065:0325:IN>
      at this present time politically in new zealand there seems to
      be a tremendous credibility gap between the people and the
      politicians <.>and</.> <.>and</.> and this is a market oriented
      economy or society so we're told

  <WSC#DGI065:0330:IN>
      i mean where does cooperation come in there

  <WSC#DGI065:0335:JS>
      oh cooperation comes into it VERY powerfully er a at our social
      level

  <WSC#DGI065:0340:JS>
      in the market economy er we're really at a fairly crude level i
      think in it the way we are organising it for the competition <,>

  <WSC#DGI065:0345:JS>
      sooner or later there there's going to have to be some social
      intervention <,> um to safeguard against the worst effects of
      that <O>tut</O> so that we don't get ripped off

  <WSC#DGI065:0350:JS>
      inevitably if um if private competition is <&>17:00</&> allowed
      to run then people get ripped off so that then in the home of of
      private enterprise the united states of america there are very
      stringent social controls on what private enterprise may and may
      not DO um <O>tut</O> how far they may be able to develop in
      eating up the other competition for instance so they accept this
      but withIN the way in which private enterprise works <,> the
      evidence indicates that in the big corporations of the united
      states little industries and so forth the ones which are
      successful are those <,> which cooperate with their employees

  <WSC#DGI065:0355:JS>
      there was a huge study done by a woman called rosabeth kanter on
      behalf of the u s chamber of commerce took three years very
      expensive very big <&>17:52</&>
</I>
