<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>0:14</&>
  

  <WSC#DGI106:0005:IG>
      er <indig=Maori>no reira</indig=Maori> mike

  <WSC#DGI106:0010:IG>
      can you <O>voc</O> um first of all just give us some background
      on <,> what is <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa</indig=Maori> and the
      reasons <,> why <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa</indig=Maori> was
      established <latch>

  <WSC#DGI106:0015:MH>
      mm <O>inhales</O> <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori>
      if we look at it from a <.>particul</.> um a legislative point
      of view exists in the legislation um in the <.>e</.> education
      amendment act in nineteen eighty nine um and that merely <O>voc</O>
      states that <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori> is an
      education option um where the principal language of instruction
      is maori um <O>clears throat</O> and um <,> that's basically er
      what constitutes it under legislation

  <WSC#DGI106:0020:MH>
      however the proponents of <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori>
      would um suggest <&>1:00</&> that it's <.>a</.> it's a lot more
      than just um being educated in maori

  <WSC#DGI106:0025:MH>
      it's not a matter of just translating um a <.>maor</.> <.>a</.>
      a pakeha curriculum into maori language and so there's <.>a</.>
      a certain ethos <indig=Maori>wairua</indig=Maori> um and <.>a</.>
      a pedagogy that <O>voc</O> <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori>
      proponents follow although um each <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa
      maori</indig=Maori> has its own <indig=Maori>kaupapa</indig=Maori>
      if you like and um <,> <O>voc</O> er i don't um claim to be an
      expert on everybody else's philosophy um

  <WSC#DGI106:0030:MH>
      i'm involved with a <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI106:0035:MH>
      we have a particular philosophy that um suits us and our um a
      philosophy <.>tha</.> <.>a</.> about <.>w</.> <.>what</.> what
      we believe maori education is

  <WSC#DGI106:0040:MH>
      some of it is or most of it is very similar to the other
      <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori> but <?>this</?> is
      a independent um philosophy that we've developed <&>2:00</&> um
      in our own local community

  <WSC#DGI106:0045:MH>
      the core <.>o</.> obviously is maori language

  <WSC#DGI106:0050:MH>
      <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori> are schools where
      maori is the medium of instruction

  <WSC#DGI106:0055:MH>
      in our situation it is the medium of instruction in the
      <indig=Maori>kura</indig=Maori> for everything all the time um
      with no exceptions um

  <WSC#DGI106:0060:MH>
      that doesn't mean to say that the children don't learn english
      but the children learn english outside of the school and they
      learn it by learn it from people who <O>inhales</O> um are not
      the normal teachers in the school <O>tut</O> so they actually go
      to classes before school or after school to learn english mm so
      in the school the whole um schooling environment is a maori
      environment where maori is the medium of instruction and OUR
      form of maori <,> pedagogy i suppose is um is focused on <,,>

  <WSC#DGI106:0065:IG>
      <indig=Maori>ae</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI106:0070:IG>
      now you were telling us in our <&>3:00</&> class on monday that
      um you've done some research into <,> some of the i don't know
      whether problems is quite the right word but some of the hiccups
      shall we say in language development um within <,> the
      <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa</indig=Maori> that you are <{1><[1>involved</[1>
      in um <,>

  <WSC#DGI106:0075:IG>
      would you like to just discuss one or two of those things <{2><[2>now</[2>

  <WSC#DGI106:0080:MH>
      <[1>mm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI106:0085:MH>
      <[2>mm</[2></{2> <O>inhales</O> one of the major problems um <O>tut</O>
      er <.>i</.> is firstly looking at the context in which the the
      <indig=Maori>kura</indig=Maori> exists um

  <WSC#DGI106:0090:MH>
      i mean i live in masterton which was an area where maori
      language died fairly early um

  <WSC#DGI106:0095:MH>
      very few <indig=Maori>kaumatua</indig=Maori> are fluent at the
      language and <,> nobody of my generation who lives in wairarapa
      are native speakers of maori

  <WSC#DGI106:0100:MH>
      all of us are have learnt maori as a second language <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI106:0105:MH>
      the only um people who are native speakers are immigrants
      <&>4:00</&> into the community from other tribal areas um

  <WSC#DGI106:0110:MH>
      now that doesn't pose a problem for us but it does <.>po</.>
      pose a problem for some people um

  <WSC#DGI106:0115:MH>
      our teachers those that are native speakers are are from other
      areas <O>swallows</O> <.>bu</.> um most of those are not
      qualified <,> teachers um

  <WSC#DGI106:0120:MH>
      the qualified teachers are second language learners of maori

  <WSC#DGI106:0125:MH>
      the other difficulty oh of course so so there's a <.>lim</.>
      there are limitations in the kind of the level of maori language
      that the children um <O>tut</O> will achieve <,> er <O>clears
      throat</O> but we <.>d</.> also know that language does not er
      is not only acquired through the school system

  <WSC#DGI106:0130:MH>
      in actual fact little very little language is acquired through
      the school system

  <WSC#DGI106:0135:MH>
      most children acquire language from their parents um and the <.>w</.>
      wider community generally and most of our parents don't speak
      maori and um <O>tut</O> in the wider community the language is
      <&>5:00</&> not spoken in the shops television <.>i</.> <.>in</.>
      <.>in</.> in in the places that the children come in contact in
      their <.>norly</.> normal daily <.>d</.> day to day activities
      <O>inhales</O> so <,> what happens is the children's models of
      language er are very few and <,> they <,> learn a lot of the
      language from each other and they learn aberrant forms of the
      language and often simplified forms of the language and um that
      language then fossilises <,> um into a form that many
      <indig=Maori>kaumatua</indig=Maori> cringe when they hear the
      children <{1><[1>speak</[1> and so while they might um <,>
      appear to the uneducated ear as being incredibly communicative
      in maori their <O>voc</O> <O>voc</O> a large proportion of their
      language is is not correct in terms of if you're <.>being</.> in
      terms of um a purist analysis of the language <,> but <quickly>that's
      not so much of a concern <&>6:00</&> of us

  <WSC#DGI106:0140:MH>
      what is <?>a</?> concern of us is that</quickly> the language
      actually is becoming simplified <O>tut</O> that um distinct
      forms that were <O>voc</O> <.>ex</.> that exist in the language
      are being simplified into you know one form for instance i
      mentioned yesterday was the a and o category um

  <WSC#DGI106:0145:MH>
      children don't distinguish between the two a and o category
      something <{2><[2>that's</[2> central to maori language or there
      are <O>tut</O> um two different times <.>k</.> types of
      negatives in the language and the children have coalesced the
      two into into one um and those <.>so</.> sorts of issues so it's
      quite a <,> a difficult task for the teachers who are aware of
      this um and as <.>they</.> they are the only models in the
      school um to rectify it <O>inhales</O>

  <WSC#DGI106:0150:MH>
      what <{3><[3>we are</[3> finding also is that children coming in
      at five year olds who've been at <indig=Maori>kohanga reo</indig=Maori>
      speaking maori reasonably fluently at a five year old level um
      as they <.>progressive</.> progress through the school they can
      <O>voc</O> um they can they become more and more dominant in
      english and to maintain maori is <&>7:00</&> quite difficult
      because the children's intellectual development very quickly
      outstrips their linguistic development <O>tut</O> and they're
      unable to articulate <,> <drawls>the</drawls> their ideas in a
      way that they want to <,> um yeah so

  <WSC#DGI106:0155:IG>
      <[1><O>laughs</O></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI106:0160:IG>
      <[2><?>mm</?></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGI106:0165:IG>
      <[3>mm</[3></{3>

  <WSC#DGI106:0170:IG>
      <indig=Maori>ae</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI106:0175:IG>
      i can see although you know the problems that you enumerated
      there are <,> major problems for the maori language um in a way
      they have a positive aspect in that it kills all the arguments
      about children being educated in maori not becoming competent in
      english

  <WSC#DGI106:0180:MH>
      mm oh yes <{1><[1>i mean</[1> there's <O>inhales</O> <O>exhales</O>
      in our own family <O>tut</O> um we have tried to <,> restrict
      our children from speaking english and that has been <.>un</.>
      <.>im</.> impossible to do

  <WSC#DGI106:0185:MH>
      we've done all sorts of things bribed them blackmailed them to
      speak maori all the time and as children as little children they
      only spoke maori but um now they're totally dominant in english
      <,> um and we don't speak to them in <&>8:00</&> english <,>

  <WSC#DGI106:0190:MH>
      they don't have any education in english but the <.>s</.> the
      <{2><[2>social</[2> pressure of a society um forces people to
      speak english

  <WSC#DGI106:0195:IG>
      <[1>mm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI106:0200:IG>
      <[2><?>ah</?></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGI106:0205:IG>
      <indig=Maori>ae</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI106:0210:IG>
      we can just go back to um the discussion about <,,> the language
      situation in the wairarapa um

  <WSC#DGI106:0215:IG>
      i'm sure a lot of the listeners would be able to recognise
      similarities between the wairarapa and here in terms of the
      paucity of native speakers and the fact that most of our native
      speakers here in dunedin actually come from the north island um
      <,> <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI106:0220:IG>
      can you give us perhaps some sort of indication of how you
      recruited staff to the <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa</indig=Maori>
      <?>at</?> masterton

  <WSC#DGI106:0225:MH>
      um <,> <.>th</.> they're basically parents of <{><[>the</[>
      children um

  <WSC#DGI106:0230:MH>
      we haven't we've advertised in <?><.>n</.></?> nationally and we
      haven't recruited anybody to come to wairarapa um

  <WSC#DGI106:0235:MH>
      most people who are <&>9:00</&> native speakers of maori <O>voc</O>
      have a tendency to go back to their own regions um

  <WSC#DGI106:0240:MH>
      we've got people mainly women who've married into wairarapa and
      their children have gone to <indig=Maori>kohanga reo</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI106:0245:MH>
      they have supported them through <indig=Maori>kohanga reo</indig=Maori>
      and now are supporting them in the <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa
      maori</indig=Maori> um <,>

  <WSC#DGI106:0250:MH>
      they all of those people that come in are either in the form of
      <indig=Maori><?>kaiarahi</?> reo</indig=Maori> or support staff
      um in the school teacher aides secretaries um <O>tut</O> er
      special education <,> tutors and so on um

  <WSC#DGI106:0255:MH>
      <.>n</.> none of the people we have that come in er have got any
      if you like formal qualifications

  <WSC#DGI106:0260:IG>
      <[>oh</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI106:0265:IG>
      <indig=Maori>ae</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI106:0270:IG>
      i know that the subject of of establishing a <indig=Maori>kura
      kaupapa</indig=Maori> in the otago region is forefront in the
      minds of a lot of people just now um as the factor funding for
      otago is quite severely threatened um <O>swallows</O> <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI106:0275:IG>
      would you be able to perhaps <,> give us some pointers as to how
      to start <{><[><unclear>word</unclear></[>

  <WSC#DGI106:0280:MH>
      <[>mm</[></{> <,> <O>inhales</O> well the establishment of a
      <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori> <,> probably is
      <&>10:00</&> more a political decision than a um <O>tut</O> than
      a educational one

  <WSC#DGI106:0285:IG>
      true <laughs>mm</laughs> <latch>

  <WSC#DGI106:0290:MH>
      so i i don't want to elaborate on that a lot <laughs>um</laughs>
      but <,> er um <.>e</.> there <.>i</.> there is a procedure to go
      through and that that procedure is to put a proposal to the
      ministry of education

  <WSC#DGI106:0295:MH>
      now in that proposal you have to <,> outline um the numbers of
      children um

  <WSC#DGI106:0300:MH>
      there is a restriction not a restriction a a <O>clears throat</O>
      a minimum number <?>er</?> twenty one twenty one children to
      establish um although <,> um ministry has been lenient in some
      instances where there is a potential for twenty one

  <WSC#DGI106:0305:MH>
      you haven't got twenty one to start on day one but there is a
      potential that um you know people have have got children in
      <indig=Maori>kohanga reo</indig=Maori> have committed themselves
      <O>tut</O> to enrolling in the <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori>
      <,> um <,> <O>tut</O> <&>11:00</&> er

  <WSC#DGI106:0310:MH>
      you put forward an application to the ministry um <O>voc</O>
      with as much detail as you can regarding um <O>clears throat</O>
      why you require a <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori>
      in the region <,>

  <WSC#DGI106:0315:MH>
      schools er regions that um have been most successful are those
      where there isn't um another option <,> um

  <WSC#DGI106:0320:MH>
      now in our <.>s</.> situation in wairarapa there WAS another
      option

  <WSC#DGI106:0325:MH>
      there is a total immersion um programme operating in one of the
      primary schools

  <WSC#DGI106:0330:MH>
      the difference about <,> um a <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori>
      than um a bilingual or an immersion option <O>tut</O> is that um
      <,> the whole environment of the school is maori <,> whereas if
      um a programme is just attached to a school the dominance of the
      english part of the programme <&>12:00</&> always um causes the
      the the <indig=Maori>kura <.>kaup</.></indig=Maori> or the <O>tut</O>
      immersion part of the school to have to compromise so you need
      to put those kind of issues in your application to the ministry
      <,> <O>inhales</O> um and basically um <,> the decision as to
      <O>voc</O> whether or not you'll be successful will be one a
      political decision and whether or not your member of parliament
      um advocates on your behalf um what the political climate is in
      this region regarding um the <O>voc</O> <O>voc</O> <O>voc</O>
      <O>tut</O> the elections for next year um how much money is
      appropriated <?>the</?> budget um what are the priority areas
      for establishment um <,> so it's <{><[>very</[> difficult to to
      really give specific advice on er on what to do

  <WSC#DGI106:0335:IG>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI106:0340:IG>
      <indig=Maori>ae</indig=Maori> well you've already jumped the gun
      on my next question which was what really is the difference
      between <laughs><indig=Maori>kura kaupapa</indig=Maori></laughs>
      and immersion units within <&>13:00</&> <{1><[1>schools</[1> um
      <,,>

  <WSC#DGI106:0345:IG>
      <{2><[2>i guess</[2>

  <WSC#DGI106:0350:MH>
      <[1>mm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI106:0355:MH>
      <[2>i could</[2></{2> talk a bit more about that though just to
      <{1><[1>um</[1> because <,> because <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa
      maori</indig=Maori> exists in one respects to maintain and
      develop maori language

  <WSC#DGI106:0360:MH>
      it also has um the the purpose of trying to improve um
      educational performance of maori and um and we believe that we
      can do both and that

  <WSC#DGI106:0365:MH>
      now if you look at what the state's the mainstream state system
      um is like and why it has failed maori people there is <quickly>there
      are a number of things that have been identified

  <WSC#DGI106:0370:MH>
      one is that</quickly> the <drawls>school</drawls> organisation
      and practices in the school have have mitigated against maori
      achievement and um <,> <O>tut</O> so um <drawls>maori</drawls>
      people now are saying that a <indig=Maori>whanau</indig=Maori>
      structure with <.>a</.> lots of <&>14:00</&> peer support and
      <indig=Maori>whanau</indig=Maori> support is a more appropriate
      model to work on than the more factory um school model that
      exists now and perhaps <.>it</.> <.>the</.> it's more more <.>accept</.>
      more beneficial to all students but particularly for maori
      people <quickly>but there are other practices that have actually</quickly>
      um caused maori to underachieve or barriers to achievement <O>tut</O>
      things like um <,> the practice of keeping um children back in
      junior classes and maori are disproportionately kept back
      particularly boys um and <.>there's</.> there's been some
      research that seems to have changed now

  <WSC#DGI106:0375:MH>
      streaming in schools usually streams maoris to the bottom
      streams of class and that <.>h</.> <{2><[2>goes</[2> with it is
      a whole lot of negative um <,> things

  <WSC#DGI106:0380:MH>
      then there's the um there are issues to do with teaching styles
      and attitudes er

  <WSC#DGI106:0385:MH>
      teachers often don't have the same cultural congruence with the
      students and therefore they <.>d</.> they're not able to
      actually um if you like <&>15:00</&> touch base with the way the
      children think and operate and um <,> maori people <,> oh
      <quickly>there has been some research in this

  <WSC#DGI106:0390:MH>
      courtney cazden's done quite a lot of research in new zealand</quickly>
      on how pakeha teachers relate to maori students and <{3><[3>comparing</[3>
      them with how maori <.>stud</.> teachers relate to maori
      students

  <WSC#DGI106:0395:MH>
      there's also a general low expectation of maori parents BY maori
      parents and maori pupils and teachers generally about maori
      kids' performance um um

  <WSC#DGI106:0400:MH>
      maori parents don't expect their kids to perform well generally

  <WSC#DGI106:0405:MH>
      they have high aspirations but they often don't expect their
      children to be doctors and lawyers and accountants

  <WSC#DGI106:0410:MH>
      maori students themselves have that attitude about <{4><[4>themselves</[4>
      that's bred through the system

  <WSC#DGI106:0415:MH>
      the teachers while teachers don't <,> necessarily <O>voc</O>
      believe that they DO have low expectations i've frequently
      <&>16:00</&> heard <.>t</.> teachers say gosh um hemi's really
      bright

  <WSC#DGI106:0420:MH>
      he got eighty percent <{5><[5>in</[5> in the maths tests

  <WSC#DGI106:0425:MH>
      they didn't expect hemi to get eighty percent <,>

  <WSC#DGI106:0430:MH>
      they do <.>ex</.> and so so it's something unusual for a maori
      child to get top of the class in english or maths for instance
      <&>16:14</&>

  <WSC#DGI106:0435:IG>
      <[1>yeah</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI106:0440:IG>
      <[2>mm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGI106:0445:IG>
      <[3>mm</[3></{3>

  <WSC#DGI106:0450:IG>
      <[4>mm</[4></{4>

  <WSC#DGI106:0455:IG>
      <[5><O>laughs</O></[5></{5>
</I>
