<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>1:07</&>
  

  <WSC#DGI109:0005:AS>
      well strangely enough this book began a LONG time ago in
      nineteen seventy odd when i was <O>voc</O> travelling around the
      country as haare williams was just saying in our blue v dub with
      amiria and eruera stirling going to visit various <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori>
      and i began by <,> being very fascinated and struck by the
      differences in different parts of the country

  <WSC#DGI109:0010:AS>
      ngati porou nga puhi tainui <O>laughs</O> each part of the
      country each er <indig=Maori>takiwa</indig=Maori> seemed to have
      its own very special character and its own special history that
      people were talking about on the <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori>
      <,> so i started to wonder about the traditional maori society
      that we were being taught about at university and at school at
      that time which looked pretty much the same <{1><[1>from</[1>
      one part of the country to the other and that's where the book
      started <,> er

  <WSC#DGI109:0015:AS>
      it turned into something else in the process <{2><[2><O>laughs</O></[2>
      <&>2:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI109:0020:IH>
      <[1><?>yeah</?></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI109:0025:IH>
      <[2>so at that stage</[2></{2> had you written the <,> the <.>biogr</.>
      biographical stories about eruera stirling and amiria or was
      this was that during that that that learning mentorship period
      as it were that you spent er with the stirlings

  <WSC#DGI109:0030:AS>
      yes i i think the questions emerged <{><[>er</[> as i was
      spending all that time with amiria and then later working with
      eruera on his book

  <WSC#DGI109:0035:AS>
      eruera had a very profound influence on me not just as a person
      <,> and as a <indig=Maori><?>mokai</?></indig=Maori> but also as
      a scholar because he had ideas about the uses of knowledge and
      what it was for in the world and the responsibilities of
      knowledge that i <,> i was deeply er moved by <,>

  <WSC#DGI109:0040:AS>
      he thought that knowledge was something to do work with in the
      world and it wasn't for yourself

  <WSC#DGI109:0045:AS>
      it was to make things better er for the people that you cared
      about and for your own country and so the project as it emerged
      in my time with them was a a project of trying to discover MORE
      about <&>3:00</&> the beginnings of our relationships on both
      sides er

  <WSC#DGI109:0050:IH>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI109:0055:IH>
      <?>i was gonna</?> ask you about both sides because so far to me
      you're speaking about one side of the equation as it were

  <WSC#DGI109:0060:IH>
      you were wondering as you went to the different tribal districts
      why the differences and so on and wanted to <.>g</.> get right
      back to those historical roots so was it <,> was it logical THEN
      that the other side the the european side of things should
      should come into your thinking at that particular time what was
      THEIR their real history like

  <WSC#DGI109:0065:AS>
      one of the great things about eruera is that <O>voc</O> he
      always used to remember his <indig=Maori>whakapapa</indig=Maori>
      and his stories on both sides and he used to know poems from
      scotland and he knew all about his scottish background

  <WSC#DGI109:0070:AS>
      he was very interested in it too

  <WSC#DGI109:0075:AS>
      he he didn't see <indig=Maori>whakapapa</indig=Maori> as
      something that just applied on one side of his ancestry

  <WSC#DGI109:0080:AS>
      he was VERY interested in both and so as my questioning about
      <indig=Maori>te ao <&>4:00</&> tawhito</indig=Maori> began and i
      went back to those early accounts because i thought i might find
      out something about the difference different qualities of life
      <.>in</.> in aotearoa at that time i suddenly realised that what
      i was doing was in fact excluding the other side of the equation
      which were the european observers themselves and as i got to
      know them a bit better i realised that in fact in many ways they
      were strangers to me and that because they were my own ancestors
      i was quite keen on knowing more about them

  <WSC#DGI109:0085:IH>
      at this stage were you becoming aware of the enormity of the of
      the project which you were undertaking

  <WSC#DGI109:0090:AS>
      er it was lucky i didn't begin to be <O>laughs</O> aware of that
      early on because otherwise i think i would have been very
      intimidated er

  <WSC#DGI109:0095:AS>
      no it just grew

  <WSC#DGI109:0100:IH>
      mm <latch>

  <WSC#DGI109:0105:AS>
      it grew in the way it did partly when i started working with
      eruera on his own er book because that was a teaching for the
      <indig=Maori>kaumatua</indig=Maori> and i began <&>pronounced as
      bekan</&> began to think much more deeply about the
      relationships between maori knowledge <indig=Maori>matauranga
      wananga</indig=Maori> and <&>5:00</&> european academic
      knowledge and it was out of the midst of THAT wondering about
      that relationship i think that the book eventually took its
      shape er but that took a while

  <WSC#DGI109:0110:IH>
      so <,> during what period then anne did you actually pinpoint
      that i will look at <?>via</?> the european voyages and <{><[>i
      will</[> do a er a comparison with with the the times of those
      different voyages compared with the times that the maori people
      were here what were they thinking and doing

  <WSC#DGI109:0115:IH>
      <.>whe</.> <.>w</.> when did you set those sort of parameters as
      it were

  <WSC#DGI109:0120:AS>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI109:0125:AS>
      it was probably when i er dreamed up the title <,> and i can't
      even remember <.>w</.> when that <.>n</.> notion of two worlds
      popped into my mind

  <WSC#DGI109:0130:AS>
      it actually comes really from the ideas of <indig=Maori>te ao
      pakeha te ao maori</indig=Maori> er and the way people talk in
      maori about about these worlds these <indig=Maori>ao</indig=Maori>
      um and it was when i actually <O>voc</O> came up with that title
      and started working the logic of it through i decided i would
      try and find everything i knew <.>tha</.> or thought i knew or
      thought i was <&>6:00</&> discovering about the maori world at
      that time i would try and find out parallel information about
      the europeans so that in future when people look back at the
      past in this country and they make <.>ev</.> evaluations about
      the relationship between the maori world and the european world
      at that time they do it on the basis of good information

  <WSC#DGI109:0135:AS>
      at the moment i don't think they do that

  <WSC#DGI109:0140:IH>
      i was gonna to say do you think at this stage perhaps that there
      are shortcomings er interpreting what actually happened at those
      different times in those different eras

  <WSC#DGI109:0145:AS>
      yes i do because <,> you would probably i think agree with this
      that er in this country up until very recently we really had two
      historical traditions living side by side

  <WSC#DGI109:0150:AS>
      we've had the <indig=Maori>wananga</indig=Maori> tradition and
      tribal history <indig=Maori>korero tuku iho</indig=Maori> and on
      the other hand we've had european scholarly history and often
      that hasn't had much to do with the the <indig=Maori>korero tuku
      iho</indig=Maori> it started to in more recent years and so what
      i was um <,> thinking about was that if we were <&>7:00</&>
      going to look at the interactions between us because as on the
      <.>m</.> on a <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori> all the
      interesting things happen in the middle

  <WSC#DGI109:0155:AS>
      that's where all the excitement is

  <WSC#DGI109:0160:AS>
      that's where the action is

  <WSC#DGI109:0165:AS>
      that's where things are shaped

  <WSC#DGI109:0170:AS>
      that's where the future is emerging

  <WSC#DGI109:0175:AS>
      it's the place the <indig=Maori>pae</indig=Maori> you know where
      er everything that's important is going on

  <WSC#DGI109:0180:AS>
      i think it's the same in <.>the</.> in the history of this
      country and if we keep our historical traditions totally
      separate and no you know the scholarship NEVER tries to figure
      out what's happening in the middle ground then i think we're the
      poorer for it

  <WSC#DGI109:0185:IH>
      i would have thought that a lot of the written material which
      came out those early european voyages of de surville and marion
      du fresne and <.>c</.> and cook and er and the others that that
      that written material would have been fairly fully researched by
      now

  <WSC#DGI109:0190:IH>
      did did did you and your researchers in fact find other
      information that hadn't come to light

  <WSC#DGI109:0195:AS>
      the cook material was really exhaustively gone through by er
      beaglehole who was a very great <&>8:00</&> scholar er

  <WSC#DGI109:0200:AS>
      the french material has been worked on yes and john dunmore's
      done a very fine job with that material but we found that we
      needed to go and have a look at all the journals to discover
      them in some cases to translate them so because they hadn't been
      accurately translated and <.>my</.> my ambition with the
      european material was to find every surviving document every
      single one whether it's a map a chart a journal a letter a log
      wherever they were in the world

  <WSC#DGI109:0205:AS>
      that's what made the project pretty big <{><[>at least on</[>
      that side

  <WSC#DGI109:0210:AS>
      well i think we er no doubt there are still things hidden away
      but we had a very good scratch around and we we did find stuff
      that hadn't been worked on before and but the thing that's
      fascinating is that once you start bringing the the
      <indig=Maori>korero tuku iho</indig=Maori> side in the whole
      story changes <,> you have a whole new set of questions to ask
      of the material on the european side too and actually the story
      becomes a lot more exciting i think <&>9:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI109:0215:IH>
      <[>did you succeed</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI109:0220:IH>
      but why why hadn't those areas been picked up before by by your
      historical um predecessors as it were

  <WSC#DGI109:0225:AS>
      i think maybe people had felt er intimidated in in approaching
      tribal history in any kind of way at all even those areas which
      are quite openly accessible that are in documents that er are
      <O>voc</O> debated in the maori newspapers

  <WSC#DGI109:0230:AS>
      a lot of people can't read <.>th</.> those documents of course
      and that's a problem er and maybe <,> in many cases people
      didn't think it was reliable information or they didn't think it
      was particularly important

  <WSC#DGI109:0235:AS>
      that's where i would differ from them

  <WSC#DGI109:0240:IH>
      well on on one side then you were doing this <.>e</.> extensive
      research in world archives <{><[>looking</[> at the
      documentation the maps and so on of the european explorers

  <WSC#DGI109:0245:IH>
      now what about in the other world

  <WSC#DGI109:0250:IH>
      how were you how were you ferreting out this material from
      <indig=Maori>te ao maori</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI109:0255:AS>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI109:0260:AS>
      well there were a number of um <.>th</.> the the ironical thing
      about all this is that it turns out that it's much easier to
      find the material in europe because of all the scholarship
      that's <&>10:00</&> been even though it's on the other side of
      the world it's easier for a scholar here to actually track it
      down than it is sometimes to find material in maori that's
      sitting in archives just in your own backyard cos often it
      hasn't been catalogued or indexed because it's only very
      recently we've had maori speaking archivists who can actually
      understand <laughs>what's in there</laughs> and put it on an
      index card so sometimes you trip over things by sheer accident
      <,>

  <WSC#DGI109:0265:AS>
      um there's <drawls>amazing</drawls> amount of material in maori
      sitting in the libraries of this country <,> and a lot of it has
      never been looked at

  <WSC#DGI109:0270:IH>
      it's a tragedy anne

  <WSC#DGI109:0275:AS>
      i think so <O>voc</O> because <.>w</.> when you start reading
      some of that material in maori it is beautiful and it has
      revelations <.>i</.> in it you know about the past

  <WSC#DGI109:0280:IH>
      so what sort of things were you coming out with what <.>s</.>
      what sort of things were you finding that hadn't brought brought
      into the world of light before

  <WSC#DGI109:0285:AS>
      well i suppose the most conspicuous example is the one that
      turned up last which is the one er that i managed to slip into
      the book <laughs><&>11:00</&> right</laughs> at the last second
      which was mohi turei's um <,> <indig=Maori>korero</indig=Maori>
      about <indig=Maori>waka pakepakeha</indig=Maori> er and an
      arrival obviously off off the east coast of a strange large
      vessel that was being er rowed or he just uses the word
      <indig=Maori>hoe</indig=Maori> so you can't quite tell what he
      meant

  <WSC#DGI109:0290:AS>
      er by these pale skinned misty looking albino like er people and
      that one it turned out i tracked it back to um pipi wharauroa
      the <O>voc</O> maori newspaper that was published in gisborne
      and they were actually arguing over the origins of the meaning
      you know of the words maori and pakeha and elders from all over
      the country were writing in having A DING DONG debate fantastic
      stuff and there was mohi turei who at that stage was about
      eighty er VERY distinguished as we all know a great authority er

  <WSC#DGI109:0295:AS>
      he'd been the scribe for <?>pita pawhiti</?> from a
      <indig=Maori><?>taperenui</?> whare wananga</indig=Maori> on the
      coast and he <&>12:00</&> was a <O>voc</O> source of great um
      information on tribal history <indig=Maori><?>pai tia horou
      tatahi tina</?></indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI109:0300:IH>
      so he he was virtually saying then that <,> there could have
      been another perhaps this european voyager who predated captain
      cook for instance and tasman and <.>the</.> and the other
      accepted european er er voyagers

  <WSC#DGI109:0305:AS>
      well that's the inference you can <{><[>take from</[> his
      account

  <WSC#DGI109:0310:AS>
      what he was <.>w</.> the way it came up in this debate was
      people were arguing about the origins of the term pakeha and a
      guy from tuhoe wrote in and he gave a certain account and
      someone from tokomaru bay wrote in and absolutely rubbished it
      called it <indig=Maori>paki waitara</indig=Maori> and all sorts
      of things <&>12:37</&>

  <WSC#DGI109:0315:IH>
      <[>mm</[></{>
</I>
