<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side two</&>
  <&>0:06</&>
  

  <WSC#DGI127:0005:MC>
      very poor because <{><[><?><.>in</.></?></[>

  <WSC#DGI127:0010:ID>
      <[>when</[></{> you say national management do you mean by the
      government by <{><[>the</[> ministry of education

  <WSC#DGI127:0015:MC>
      <[><.>by</.></[></{>

  <WSC#DGI127:0020:MC>
      by the ministry of education because the ministry of education
      when tomorrow's schools was set up it was set up in a context
      where things were to be devolved to schools and so the ministry
      of education <.>r</.> almost refuses to deliver <.>to</.> to
      work on ANY service delivery like managing the reforms is is
      something <.>that</.> a job that has to be done

  <WSC#DGI127:0025:MC>
      they believe their job is simply advice to the minister

  <WSC#DGI127:0030:MC>
      <laughs>now</laughs> they haven't been doing it no one has been
      doing it and to be quite honest <.>i</.> <.>it</.> it's a
      shambles on the ground in schools and and our members and i know
      that primary teachers also are really quite upset with the POOR
      management at national level and so when we when we came
      <&>1:00</&> <.>t</.> <O>voc</O> this was the situation that we
      faced so we looked for a way forward and we and we have picked
      up essentially the the c t u strategy that what we need is an
      industry plan you know that what we have to find that there
      needs to be planning and we've gone out and during the year <.>we</.>
      we've talked to principal groups we've talked to the school
      trustees' association and we've drawn up a document that's known
      as the education accord and it's been signed by all the
      principal groups and the <.>s</.> and the school trustees and
      the two education unions n z e i and p p t a and we've given
      that to the politicians and that document calls for a five year
      plan to IMPLEMENT the national curriculum <{><[><?><.>and</.></?></[>

  <WSC#DGI127:0035:ID>
      <[>so</[></{> where does that stand at the moment

  <WSC#DGI127:0040:ID>
      are they mulling it over or <latch>

  <WSC#DGI127:0045:MC>
      they they're mulling it over

  <WSC#DGI127:0050:MC>
      we're hopeful that they will <O>voc</O> obviously before
      <laughs>the before november the sixth</laughs> <{1><[1>we're
      looking</[1> for an endorsement from from the various parties
      and er <O>voc</O> <O>voc</O> to say yes they would adopt this
      accord <{2><[2>and</[2> so really what we're calling for when
      you call for a plan you've got to have a mechanism by which you
      you can plan and again what the c t u is proposing is that each
      industry have what's known as an industry development
      organisation <&>2:00</&> a planning organisation within it not
      to go back to the old days of detail five year plans or anything
      but essentially indicative planning which gives you some idea of
      where you're going but <.>a</.> also looks at HOW you're going
      to get there and so we're quite we're hopeful that there is an
      agenda in front of us that <.>it</.> that can take us forward in
      a <.>m</.> in a much more positive way

  <WSC#DGI127:0055:ID>
      <[1><O>laughs</O></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI127:0060:ID>
      <[2><?><.>do</.></?></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGI127:0065:ID>
      this sounds like a very strong move because it it hasn't
      occurred ever before has it in new zealand education

  <WSC#DGI127:0070:ID>
      when there have been overall reviews and and general indicative
      planning it's come from the government from the ministry <{><[>and</[>
      from the old department

  <WSC#DGI127:0075:MC>
      <[>the</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI127:0080:MC>
      <.>ye</.> <.>we</.> we're <?>in</?> an interesting period
      because it'd be fair to say that all of the political parties we
      haven't spoken to winston peters but certainly the alliance the
      labour party and the national party the goals are pretty much
      the same that <.>ed</.> the education and training reforms that
      are there are accepted by all the parties

  <WSC#DGI127:0085:MC>
      they have to occur

  <WSC#DGI127:0090:MC>
      teachers and parents all support the general direction that
      <&>3:00</&> we're going in but there's a vacuum at national
      level as i explained before

  <WSC#DGI127:0095:MC>
      the ministry of education will not manage the reforms because
      they don't seem to see it as their as their function

  <WSC#DGI127:0100:MC>
      they're much more busy trying to devolve property to schools

  <WSC#DGI127:0105:MC>
      they're DEVOLVING school transport to schools

  <WSC#DGI127:0110:MC>
      they're devolving special education to schools

  <WSC#DGI127:0115:MC>
      schools don't WANT it

  <WSC#DGI127:0120:MC>
      <laughs>they've</laughs> made it quite clear they don't WANT
      these things at school level

  <WSC#DGI127:0125:MC>
      they're much better managed nationally but <.>the</.> the
      ministry of education is in this mode where they WANT to devolve
      things and they they have basically washed their hands of
      managing the national er introduction of the curriculum and
      assessment reforms and so there's been a bit of a vacuum which i
      think it's true that the teacher unions certainly have stepped
      into and said as part of the c t u approach we believe a plan
      should be there

  <WSC#DGI127:0130:MC>
      it should be linked to the enterprise council that it needs to
      be part of a wider strategic development and we're also looking
      at some other issues within education like a teaching council
      and an industry <&>4:00</&> training organisation for teachers
      and support staff so that we can move so that teachers and and
      schools can MODEL for our students the new environment which our
      students are going to i mean what we keep saying it's pretty
      silly for teachers to be still operating on a on a contract and
      a career path and a training system which implies that they can
      be trained ONCE teach for forty years go on to government super
      when in fact what they're TELLING their students and what all
      the signals in the new system are hey you're going to have three
      careers during that time

  <WSC#DGI127:0135:MC>
      you're going to have to <{><[>retrain</[>

  <WSC#DGI127:0140:ID>
      <[>retrain</[></{> yeah <latch>

  <WSC#DGI127:0145:MC>
      so <.>w</.> so what we're saying is that we need an organisation
      which <,> MAKES or ENCOURAGES teachers to model the new system
      for their students that this the best way <.>for</.> for
      teachers to be practising what we teach <{><[><?><.>and</.></?></[>

  <WSC#DGI127:0150:ID>
      <[><.>and</.></[></{> and is that part of the education accord

  <WSC#DGI127:0155:MC>
      that is that will be an outcome of the education accord

  <WSC#DGI127:0160:MC>
      we've got a lot of work to do <laughs>er</laughs> to er <.>t</.>
      <.>t</.> to persuade some of the other groups that this is the
      way to go but er we're certainly putting forward this within the
      c t u context as the way to go

  <WSC#DGI127:0165:ID>
      so has it had endorsement from the c t u <{><[>or discussion
      within</[>

  <WSC#DGI127:0170:MC>
      <[>it's it's had</[></{> endorsement from the c t u er within
      the education sector grouping and the wider executive yes
      <latch> <&>5:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI127:0175:ID>
      that sounds really good so it sounds just to wrap up this part
      of the the programme it sounds as if <.>you're</.> you have a
      very positive view of what happened at the conference this week

  <WSC#DGI127:0180:MC>
      we have

  <WSC#DGI127:0185:MC>
      <.>i</.> i think that the strategic approach that the that the
      government is taking we've we've tried to take a strategic
      approach within education

  <WSC#DGI127:0190:MC>
      we've talked about modernisation the modernisation process being
      what is happening and that teachers want to be involved in it
      that it will work if you <.>in</.> if <.>y</.> if you take
      teachers with you and you take parents with you that the whole
      thing can be quite a productive exercise which can lead to <.>a</.>
      a much higher view of of the teaching service and so on by the
      community and so both <{><[>and</[> i think that's true for the
      union movement as well that <O>voc</O> the perception of the <.>u</.>
      of unionists er is changing as as people who want to be part of
      the process and certainly in education we feel that way

  <WSC#DGI127:0195:ID>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI127:0200:ID>
      great <O>inhales</O>

  <WSC#DGI127:0205:ID>
      well <.>we</.> we'll take a music <&>6:00</&> break and it's
      from the new zealand group the waratahs <.>s</.> and they give
      us saint peter's rendezvous <&>6:06</&> <&>four minutes six
      seconds of music break</&> <&>10:12</&>

  <WSC#DGI127:0210:ID>
      saint peter's rendezvous from the new zealand group the waratahs
      and we're <O>voc</O> listening to martin cooney the president of
      the p p t a the post primary teachers' association in the
      talking union programme on wellington access radio

  <WSC#DGI127:0215:ID>
      martin we said we'd speak now about curriculum and assessment
      and the changes that have taken place and you mentioned before
      how the older system of exams were structured to exclude people
      to fail

  <WSC#DGI127:0220:ID>
      we had the the old fifty percent pass rate for school
      certificate which caused a lot of anguish

  <WSC#DGI127:0225:ID>
      could you explain what the changes are now that we're moving
      away from that system

  <WSC#DGI127:0230:MC>
      well there are two sets of changes that are occurring in schools

  <WSC#DGI127:0235:MC>
      the first is the new <&>11:00</&> zealand curriculum framework
      which alongside it there is <.>a</.> a group of CORE subject
      changes which are under the title of <?>the</?> achievement
      initiative

  <WSC#DGI127:0240:MC>
      now they're really about the content of what students learn and
      the sorts of skills and values that we believe that our students
      should have by the time they leave school

  <WSC#DGI127:0245:MC>
      then there's <.>a</.> a second set of changes which are how we
      certify how we assess those and particularly at the end of
      secondary school where people's life chances are pretty much
      affected by the sorts of qualifications that they get <O>voc</O>
      you can imagine this is a HIGHLY sensitive and a highly
      political issue <.>bec</.> for exactly that reason <.>that</.>
      that your chance for life is determined by what you get for
      school cert sixth form certificate u e er bursary well <softly>u
      e's been gone for some time</softly> so <.>w</.> as we change to
      <.>an</.> what's known as the national certificate a national
      diploma system which is based on the <,> new zealand
      <&>12:00</&> qualifications framework er we have to be extremely
      careful as we go through that <O>swallows</O>

  <WSC#DGI127:0250:MC>
      now what secondary teachers believe is that we must maintain the
      current system while we introduce the new one so that we DON'T
      penalise students at the moment as they're coming through

  <WSC#DGI127:0255:MC>
      we must maintain that over the next three four five years but
      introduce the national certificate beside it

  <WSC#DGI127:0260:MC>
      the national certificate is quite different from the basically
      externally examed examination system that we have had in the
      past

  <WSC#DGI127:0265:MC>
      it's it's really a internally assessed system but it's based on
      unit standards which are determined and put on the framework so
      that <.>th</.> it is it is quite a different system and it's one
      which will takes considerable time and considerable effort to
      persuade parents particularly those living in whangamata or
      opunake <.>or</.> or those more <&>13:00</&> outlying areas or
      particularly probably parents surprisingly in a way in some of
      the poorer areas within cities <O>voc</O> to accept and the
      reason for that is that at the moment school certificate for all
      of its negative points and they are pretty high the one positive
      thing that people do see about it is that it's FAIR in inverted
      commas <latch>

  <WSC#DGI127:0270:ID>
      because the same exam applied throughout the country

  <WSC#DGI127:0275:MC>
      yes and and so that if you go for a job and you've come from one
      of those small towns you've got your school certificate and the
      same standard applies to that as the person from wellington
      college or auckland grammar

  <WSC#DGI127:0280:MC>
      now of course we know in fact the old boy's network applies
      anyway and that the person who gets the job you know may not
      <laughs>be basically</laughs> based on that qualification anyway
      but but to some extent <.>it</.> <.>it</.> <.>it</.> it is part
      of the new zealand psyche that it is FAIR

  <WSC#DGI127:0285:MC>
      now of course it has been HIGHLY unfair to to all sorts of
      people

  <WSC#DGI127:0290:MC>
      i mean one of the interesting statistics is that internationally
      at fourth form level our students are in the top three or four
      in almost all subjects world wide

  <WSC#DGI127:0295:MC>
      a year later we <&>14:00</&> fail fifty percent of those
      students in an exam

  <WSC#DGI127:0300:MC>
      now it's a crazy system

  <WSC#DGI127:0305:MC>
      you know other other other er <O>voc</O> groups world wide have
      much higher pass marks than that you know <.>the</.> <.>the</.>
      <.>the</.> and and allow their students to carry on telling them
      they're <.>succeeders</.> succeeding and that's really the
      principle behind the national certificate

  <WSC#DGI127:0310:ID>
      so so it has support from <.>th</.> the p p t a

  <WSC#DGI127:0315:MC>
      very strong support from the p p t a

  <WSC#DGI127:0320:MC>
      teachers have been FIGHTING for this for years

  <WSC#DGI127:0325:MC>
      we have we have FOUGHT why

  <WSC#DGI127:0330:MC>
      we've asked for years why should we simply be a a an excluding
      device for the universities because that's what we've been

  <WSC#DGI127:0335:MC>
      <{1><[1>we've</[1> been a selection group for the universities
      and we've been teaching in a situation where we know that from
      the day students come into our schools they get labelled as
      failures because they're not going to pass school certificate
      and we've been fighting for years to have a system like primary
      schools do where every student can be <&>15:00</&> treated on
      their ability and given pathways through

  <WSC#DGI127:0340:MC>
      of course there will still be only a limited number of doctors
      and lawyers and accountants we could do with a few less of the
      last two groups perhaps um <{2><[2>you know and and so on</[2>
      <O>voc</O>

  <WSC#DGI127:0345:MC>
      you will still have to guide people in and so what we're saying
      is one of the big changes in secondary schools <?>well there's</?>
      going to have to be much more guidance <,> time and guidance
      effort put in so that students are helped to choose the correct
      pathway when it won't be clear <?><.>b</.> <.>w</.> i</?> if
      exams don't exclude you out then you have to have a way of
      guiding people into the appropriate pathways so <{3><[3>there
      are big changes in this</[3>

  <WSC#DGI127:0350:ID>
      <[1><?>mm</?></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI127:0355:ID>
      <[2><O>laughs</O></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGI127:0360:ID>
      <[3>this this means that</[3></{3> that er teachers <.>a</.> <.>a</.>
      are <.>going</.> there's more going to be demanded of teachers
      at every stage during the <.>s</.> the secondary schooling of of
      all the pupils <{><[><.>because</.></[>

  <WSC#DGI127:0365:MC>
      <[>already</[></{> both the primary and secondary teachers'
      workload is a huge issue

  <WSC#DGI127:0370:MC>
      teachers all round the place are telling us er <?>i mean</?> i
      spend a lot of my time going out to schools and and teachers are
      <&>16:00</&> saying i CANNOT do a quality job as i used to
      because what is happening is we're trying to do the job we have
      always done plus we're trying to introduce a major change the
      biggest change in secondary schools certainly for certainly
      fifty years and possibly a hundred without any recognition from
      the government or anybody that it's actually happening <{><[><.>and</.></[>

  <WSC#DGI127:0375:ID>
      <[>so so</[></{> what is p p t a asking for or or <.>pr</.>
      proposing

  <WSC#DGI127:0380:MC>
      well it's it's quite a difficult <laughs>issue for us because</laughs>
      when you put the words teacher and workload together in the
      community i mean <.>m</.> most people think that teachers became
      <{><[>teachers</[> for four reasons you know and <.>they</.>
      they are for easter may august and christmas <latch>

  <WSC#DGI127:0385:ID>
      <[><drawls>oh yes</drawls></[></{>

  <WSC#DGI127:0390:ID>
      <O>laughs</O> <{><[><O>laughs</O></[>

  <WSC#DGI127:0395:MC>
      <[>and and er</[></{> you know we've found it quite difficult to
      persuade people that there is actually a real problem

  <WSC#DGI127:0400:MC>
      i think we're beginning to get through to some of the decision
      makers there is a real issue here and that er <.>y</.> they do
      have to listen to teachers but we're <.>i</.> i mean we don't
      believe there's much point handing out stress tablets or all
      that sort of stuff

  <WSC#DGI127:0405:MC>
      the point is to get a DECENT planning process for the changes
      and we've actually had some success recently <&>17:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI127:0410:MC>
      certainly the minister of education who we haven't always agreed
      with i think er over the last few years HAS accepted that there
      does have to be a planning process and at the moment he he's
      actually responded to some of the calls

  <WSC#DGI127:0415:MC>
      for instance recently he has rescheduled the introduction of the
      new maths curriculum at senior level so that in in in nineteen
      ninety four the school certificate prescription will be changed
      and and the year after the sixth form and the following year the
      seventh <{><[>form now</[>

  <WSC#DGI127:0420:ID>
      <[>so</[></{> it's phased in?

  <WSC#DGI127:0425:MC>
      yeah now that you would have thought made sense <{><[>but</[>
      about two months ago they were all going to be phased in next
      year

  <WSC#DGI127:0430:ID>
      <[>yeah</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI127:0435:ID>
      right <latch>

  <WSC#DGI127:0440:MC>
      in one go

  <WSC#DGI127:0445:MC>
      now that wouldn't be a fair go for teachers and it certainly
      wouldn't be a fair go for students <{1><[1><.>so</.></[1> so we
      have had some success in getting through to <{2><[2>the</[2>
      minister that <{3><[3>there does</[3> need to be some changes

  <WSC#DGI127:0450:ID>
      <[1>yeah</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI127:0455:ID>
      <[2><unclear>word</unclear></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGI127:0460:ID>
      <[3><unclear>word</unclear></[3></{3>

  <WSC#DGI127:0465:ID>
      could i ask you <.>r</.> rather briefly because we're just
      starting to run out of time whether these curriculum changes are
      going to be positively benefiting groups who in the past have
      really <&>18:00</&> suffered under the education system such as
      for instance maori pacific islanders and to some extent in some
      subjects er girl students

  <WSC#DGI127:0470:MC>
      we've analysed four specific <O>voc</O> groups like that which
      which er need to have specific concerns raised and and need to
      be <.>th</.> their needs need to be considered particularly as
      we <.>m</.> go through the curriculum and assessment changes and
      all the consequential changes that will follow because there
      will be there will be changes to school structures for instance
      middle schools might come out of it

  <WSC#DGI127:0475:MC>
      er it could be senior colleges come out of it

  <WSC#DGI127:0480:MC>
      there could be quite big changes um but in particular you've
      analysed maori <O>voc</O> <O>voc</O> and and we've called for a
      five year plan to change the education system for maori students
      so that it DOES meet maori needs and that they do have a
      considerable input if not control over the decision making for
      maori students

  <WSC#DGI127:0485:MC>
      girls education a five year plan to make sure that that is
      brought up to speed and of course the <&>19:00</&> conditions of
      women teachers are looked at in the process because
      casualisation is having a big impact on that at the moment

  <WSC#DGI127:0490:MC>
      pacific island er of course similar but a big area that we're
      concerned about is rural students and er in spite of er <.>cons</.>
      er statements from the minister that technology will <laughs>solve
      it</laughs> er it's not quite that simple

  <WSC#DGI127:0495:MC>
      <{><[><.>there</.></[> there are really big concerns as for
      people in rural areas as to how they can get a fair go under
      this system and that's one of the real concerns that we have

  <WSC#DGI127:0500:ID>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI127:0505:ID>
      <O>tut</O> well that sounds really positive martin

  <WSC#DGI127:0510:ID>
      thanks for telling us about it

  <WSC#DGI127:0515:ID>
      um the earlier earlier on you heard <.>us</.> er heard martin
      talking about what happened at this week's c t u affiliates
      conference and you've been listening to the talking union
      programme which <.>b</.> broadcasts every week on wellington
      access radio at the same time so do tune in next week to talking
      union and thank you very much martin for presenting the p p t a
      programme today

  <WSC#DGI127:0520:MC>
      thank you <&>19:48</&>
</I>
