<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>0:57</&>
  

  <WSC#DGI137:0005:WL>
      i wanted to <.>d</.> take a different direction with my life <O>tut</O>
      and i had both a personal interest in what the aids foundation
      does because i'm gay and also i believed that i had some
      professional background and experience that would be useful to
      the organisation <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI137:0010:WL>
      er i had been a teacher <O>tut</O> <.>f</.> since er i left <.>sch</.>
      school university and er i had left teaching in nineteen seventy
      <.>f</.> five um to do community work and i found that very
      fulfilling but also er got pretty burnt out and went back
      teaching because i really wanted to go back to a job with a
      career structure and <.>a</.> and a system so that if you took a
      sickie you know the whole thing didn't fall apart but i really
      was not happy

  <WSC#DGI137:0015:WL>
      it was a mistake for me to go <&>2:00</&> back teaching

  <WSC#DGI137:0020:WL>
      i'd er i had changed and i'd really didn't want to do what a
      teacher does every day <,>

  <WSC#DGI137:0025:WL>
      it was <.>somehow</.> it <.>didn't</.> it lacked the magic that
      it had had before it lacked the sense of direction <.>and</.>
      and i learnt something important about myself and that was that
      i didn't want a career

  <WSC#DGI137:0030:WL>
      i wasn't prepared to go through the ropes in order to get to the
      top of the hierarchy

  <WSC#DGI137:0035:WL>
      i had no real interest in that <O>tut</O> <,> and in deciding to
      change direction <,> i also realised that there was something
      very important about my life that was not fulfilled and that was
      my er rights as a <.>human</.> as a gay man my rights as a human
      being <&>3:00</&> and the need in fact to <.>create</.> to
      contribute to the creation of a gay community instead of working
      for a group i didn't belong to

  <WSC#DGI137:0040:WL>
      although much as i made very dear friends and was <.>very</.>
      felt very accepted in that community in otara in a way it wasn't
      MY community

  <WSC#DGI137:0045:WL>
      i hadn't grown up there

  <WSC#DGI137:0050:WL>
      it was my adoptive community

  <WSC#DGI137:0055:WL>
      there was another community that i really needed to go and face
      up to and work out where i fitted in with <O>tut</O> and that
      was the gay community so i got involved in the work for
      homosexual law reform in nineteen eighty five as a member of the
      gay taskforce in auckland <O>tut</O> and at the same time they
      were setting the aids foundation up <,> and at first i didn't
      think i wanted to have anything to do with aids

  <WSC#DGI137:0060:WL>
      i wasn't really <&>4:00</&> interested in sickness

  <WSC#DGI137:0065:WL>
      i was interested <.>in</.> in community development <,> but
      after um working with the gay taskforce and meeting some really
      stimulating people <.>and</.> and discovering that the aids
      foundation wasn't really about sickness at all <O>laughs</O> it
      was really about health i thought <.>that</.> and <.>the</.> the
      job was there um and i thought i have some experience that i
      could turn to the you know to the benefit of this other
      community that i had <.>b</.> been on the edge of really <.>a</.>
      and that i should make that central to my life and see what it
      meant and where it led <,> so <.>i'm</.> i got the job and here
      i am

  <WSC#DGI137:0070:IN>
      i wonder if there is <drawls>some</drawls> sense of vocation in
      you the need to serve the community to work for others

  <WSC#DGI137:0075:IN>
      is there <&>5:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI137:0080:WL>
      yes there is

  <WSC#DGI137:0085:WL>
      um my father who's eighty has just resigned from being secretary
      of his last committee

  <WSC#DGI137:0090:WL>
      his first committee was the local rugby club <.>i</.> when he
      was sixteen years old so for sixty four years of his life he's
      gone along and done his duty by his community and that was the
      <.>c</.> the world i grew up in

  <WSC#DGI137:0095:WL>
      i grew up in pukekawa which is a small rural community and
      everybody knew everybody and everybody knew everybody <laughs>else's
      business and</laughs> but <.>everyb</.> <O>tut</O> it was <.>or</.>
      fairly isolated too

  <WSC#DGI137:0100:WL>
      i mean going to tuakau once a week was an adventure

  <WSC#DGI137:0105:WL>
      going to auckland once a year was a BIG adventure and sometimes
      the river flooded and you couldn't go anywhere um <,> and it
      just was the natural thing to do to participate in community
      activities and to contribute <.>your</.> <&>6:00</&> your skills
      to <.>the</.> the common good so both my parents always had that
      very strong sense of involvement <.>a</.> so that just seemed to
      be natural to do that <,> but also i think because i'm gay and
      because i haven't got married and had children and created that
      other um <O>voc</O> little <.>ne</.> closeknit and very
      demanding network <.>i've</.> i've wanted to attach myself to
      groups of people <,,>

  <WSC#DGI137:0110:WL>
      i want <.>t</.> i've wanted that kind of belonging <,,> and also
      when you're gay you have a lot <.>of</.> you have <.>a</.> an
      enormous struggle with where you belong <,>

  <WSC#DGI137:0115:WL>
      er there was never any doubt in my mind that i belonged with my
      own family and my own family has always stood by me um and
      embraced me <.>and</.> and supported me but <.>y</.> you still
      grow up in an <&>7:00</&> environment in which <slowly>you have</slowly>
      a dark secret and so you're on the edge

  <WSC#DGI137:0120:WL>
      you never quite belong because you're never quite going to
      fulfil the community norms getting married and having children
      and owning a house and a car and a dog and a cat and <,> in my
      youth there were only two possible futures for a homosexual
      person prison or a mental asylum <,> and for me it wasn't a
      question of if but when <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI137:0125:WL>
      when was it going to be discovered that i had this terrible dark
      secret and when would i just be locked away <,,> so <.>i</.> i
      guess <.>i</.> the <.>habit</.> it just became a habit that i
      was always on the edge of things

  <WSC#DGI137:0130:WL>
      i never gave myself completely <&>8:00</&> to any group of
      people in case they found me out so my friends are not the
      friends i made at school or at university

  <WSC#DGI137:0135:WL>
      they're friends i made later in life when i knew who i was and
      where i belonged

  <WSC#DGI137:0140:IN>
      did you accept society's judgement of your homosexuality <.>a</.>
      at <.>that</.> in <.>tha</.> in those early stages in other
      words that you were a bad person for being like this

  <WSC#DGI137:0145:WL>
      always ambivalent because i was good at some things and i got
      lots of rewards for those

  <WSC#DGI137:0150:WL>
      i <.>was</.> i was <.>b</.> academically er successful <.>and</.>
      and got lots of reward for that

  <WSC#DGI137:0155:WL>
      i was also successful at sport and got lots of reward for that
      and um so those provided a great sort of cover <,> but deep down
      yes i accepted society's <&>9:00</&> judgement that there was
      something deeply wrong with me

  <WSC#DGI137:0160:WL>
      homosexuality was a sin a crime and a mental sickness and <.>the</.>
      my struggle was with those three things that i was going to <.>be</.>
      er i mean if <.>i</.> by some miracle i should escape prison or
      a mental asylum i suppose then all i had left <.>was</.> was the
      jaws of hell so yeah i did accept that inside and believed that
      i was not a fit person to participate and <.>yet</.> you see i
      was successful at everything i took on at school um and so i was
      sort of impelled <.>into</.> into teaching because well what
      else did you do

  <WSC#DGI137:0165:WL>
      you know you <.>just</.> <.>y</.> you went with the flow and the
      flow said well you'd be a good teacher <&>10:00</&> so off you
      go and be a teacher and in those days too you got quite good
      money for going to <laughs>teacher's college <.>and</.> and
      doing a degree</laughs> and becoming a teacher so i did that but
      in some ways my heart was never in it <,,>

  <WSC#DGI137:0170:WL>
      <.>i</.> i think <.>i</.> i was a good teacher

  <WSC#DGI137:0175:WL>
      i did well um particularly when i was <.>at</.> at hillary
      college and i <.>was</.> and <.>th</.> and there was the
      opportunity to explore and to dig deep and by that time i had
      come to terms with my sexuality to a large extent although i
      still kept fairly reserved about it publicly <,> mm

  <WSC#DGI137:0180:IN>
      when did you first become aware that you were homosexual

  <WSC#DGI137:0185:WL>
      at the age of three <O>both laugh</O>

  <WSC#DGI137:0190:WL>
      <O>laughs</O> mm but <.>r</.> but really er <.>n</.> no really
      later on um

  <WSC#DGI137:0195:WL>
      <{><[>i</[>

  <WSC#DGI137:0200:IN>
      <[>can you</[></{> tell me how this happened i mean <&>11:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI137:0205:WL>
      yeah er well two things

  <WSC#DGI137:0210:WL>
      i was always aware that i was fascinated with other boys' bodies
      and that i longed to be loved by um by other boys and i had a
      lot <.>of</.> i had a real struggle with that especially at
      secondary school where i was sleeping in a dormitory with sixty
      or so of them um <O>tut</O> but it <.>p</.> particularly
      sharpened at the age of fourteen when my mother sat me down and
      asked me if i knew about homosexuals and i said yes and she said
      well you know <.>th</.> i think that what they do is really <.>d</.>
      dirty and disgusting and i hope you will never ever do anything
      like that <O>tut</O> and <,> just at that <&>12:00</&> moment i
      realised well that IS what i am and this is something that i can
      never tell my mother <O>tut</O> <,> and <,> so from that point
      on i identified myself as homosexual and as undesirable in some
      way

  <WSC#DGI137:0215:IN>
      <.>y</.> <.>y</.> you came to a time i guess when it was okay to
      be homosexual

  <WSC#DGI137:0220:IN>
      when was that

  <WSC#DGI137:0225:WL>
      i think that i began to accept it as um not such a dreadful
      thing when i had my first lover

  <WSC#DGI137:0230:WL>
      i was twenty one and he introduced me to the gay scene in
      auckland

  <WSC#DGI137:0235:WL>
      there was a gay bar

  <WSC#DGI137:0240:WL>
      it was a great little bar it was in the occidental in vulcan
      lane and er and a whole set of people who weren't <O>voc</O> my
      stereotypes of lunatics or <&>13:00</&> criminals

  <WSC#DGI137:0245:WL>
      they were polite well dressed

  <WSC#DGI137:0250:WL>
      they had good jobs

  <WSC#DGI137:0255:WL>
      they were interesting fun company <.>o</.> um it wasn't all sex

  <WSC#DGI137:0260:WL>
      it was to do with just being good friends and people who were
      very supportive and caring <.>and</.> and er er and suddenly i
      realised <.>w</.> <.>w</.> well this is not all that bad

  <WSC#DGI137:0265:WL>
      you know what we do is sexually is unconventional but it's
      actually not harmful <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI137:0270:WL>
      i'd also by that stage i had DARED to pick up a couple of books
      and to read about it <.>w</.> it took enormous courage

  <WSC#DGI137:0275:WL>
      i can remember going into pauls book arcade week after week and
      scanning the shelves and looking very hard at dickens and
      tolstoy and george eliot <.>and</.> and every now and again
      glancing at a book about homosexuality er which was a <.>s</.> a
      <&>14:00</&> scientific study that had been carried out <.>in</.>
      in the united kingdom at that time and trying to pluck up the
      courage to take that book off the shelf and buy it

  <WSC#DGI137:0280:WL>
      i did eventually <laughs>i think</laughs> it was at a sale and
      as i began to read <.>i</.> i began to understand that what <.>the</.>
      the whole phenomenon of homosexuality is er i mean there <.>is</.>
      it's <.>a</.> it's a norm it <.>that</.> it occurs in every
      society there is a proportion of the population that's
      homosexual <O>tut</O> um that this has been the case in <.>all</.>
      in all times and in all places but the way in which society
      deals with that is socially constructed

  <WSC#DGI137:0285:WL>
      the way in which <.>it's</.> it's responded to the way in which
      we um are taught to believe is all a social phenomenon and at
      that time of my life <&>15:00</&> in my twenties i tended to
      accept society as it was but as i <.>exp</.> experimented with
      change in education at hillary college and change <.>in</.> in
      the community in otara i began to understand well there <.>were</.>
      there were bigger changes you could make too in fact change is
      constant and you have to decide which bit of change you want to
      <.>p</.> take part in and do it well and with great care for the
      people and the future

  <WSC#DGI137:0290:IN>
      some of the images you've used um are religious words like sin
      and guilt and judgement

  <WSC#DGI137:0295:IN>
      i guess there is a religious background there

  <WSC#DGI137:0300:WL>
      yes <.>i</.> i was brought up in <.>a</.> <.>i</.> in a
      conventionally rural community where we all <&>16:00</&> went to
      sunday school on sunday

  <WSC#DGI137:0305:WL>
      um it was <.>p</.> er the local little old wooden church was
      used by the anglicans one sunday and the presbyterians the next
      sunday um <O>tut</O> and my father <.>had</.> my mother was
      brought up presbyterian my father had been brought up by an
      irish catholic mother and a swedish atheist father so we had an
      interesting heritage um but <.>i</.> and it was a thoughtful
      heritage you see because occasionally we DID go off to dad's
      sister's <.>f</.> catholic family um occasions and because dad
      didn't go to church he'd followed <.>his</.> he'd adopted his
      father's beliefs um it <.>me</.> it meant that religion was
      always being questioned <O>tut</O> and at the same time um we
      were being brought up with conventional presbyterian attitudes
      <O>laughs</O> and then i went to a methodist church <&>17:00</&>
      school er wesley college um er where i in fact won the divinity
      prize <O>laughs</O> er and i was very interested in religion

  <WSC#DGI137:0310:WL>
      i actually found sunday school more stimulating <.>th</.>
      intellectually stimulating than ordinary <.>d</.> school

  <WSC#DGI137:0315:WL>
      i think i <.>f</.> i think it was <.>b</.> <.>partly</.> partly
      <.>the</.> the mysteries of religion <,> and partly that it was
      about <,> me and how i felt <.>a</.> and <.>my</.> and how i
      cared about things so yes i have a very conventional christian
      upbringing and as i moved beyond <.>a</.> the literal <.>un</.>
      understandings of the bible um have adopted <&>18:00</&> <.>the</.>
      the fundamental christian belief that god is love and love is
      the most fundamental value and the value that should um infuse
      everything we do and that without love there's not much meaning

  <WSC#DGI137:0320:IN>
      do you believe in a god now

  <WSC#DGI137:0325:WL>
      <O>inhales</O> not A god no er i mean god is love

  <WSC#DGI137:0330:WL>
      love is not a thing or a person um <.>l</.> and instead of
      looking up there in the sky for god i look inside because that's
      where love comes from <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI137:0335:WL>
      it's <.>th</.> the <.>s</.> the source of love is actually
      within ourselves and the source of our strength if love is our
      strength then the source of our strength is inside ourselves and
      <&>19:00</&> in other people and so when i'm feeling down and
      distressed and overwhelmed then i actually meditate rather than
      pray

  <WSC#DGI137:0340:WL>
      in a sense they're the same thing but we were brought up
      thinking that prayers were kind of pleas to something out there
      that was remote and hard to reach whereas meditation is to do
      with looking in <,> so that's where i look <,> and it's amazing
      what i find <O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DGI137:0345:IN>
      what do you find

  <WSC#DGI137:0350:WL>
      oh i find that i have this er <.>e</.> enormous strength that i
      keep forgetting about under pressure <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI137:0355:WL>
      yes we <.>can</.> we can go through anything er that <.>the</.>
      our limits <.>are</.> are always greater than what we think they
      are

  <WSC#DGI137:0360:WL>
      we can always go further than we thought we could <&>20:00</&>
      <O>inhales</O> and er we also have enormous strength if <.>we</.>
      if we know about it and care about it

  <WSC#DGI137:0365:IN>
      mm

  <WSC#DGI137:0370:WL>
      <O>tut</O> er <.>a</.> but then i need input i <.>like</.> i
      mean other people care for me and give me <.>s</.> strength and
      support

  <WSC#DGI137:0375:WL>
      er i mean we have the whole <.>of</.> of european culture and
      literature <.>and</.> and thought that also contributes and i've
      had the privilege of a good education and <.>i</.> i <.>i</.> my
      main recreation is reading <.>and</.> and so that's the input
      you see <.>y</.> i mean well my other recreation's the theatre
      and the tremendous understandings that one gains from <,> <.>a</.>
      art and literature <,> of which the bible was <&>21:00</&> a
      primary source but which has for me <,> er outlived its
      usefulness that's for me personally and i've <.>look</.> i look
      for my inspiration <.>fr</.> <.>i</.> generally from other
      literature

  <WSC#DGI137:0380:IN>
      some people of course use the bible to <O>voc</O> beat you over
      the head <laughs>with</laughs> do they not as a homosexual
      <latch>

  <WSC#DGI137:0385:WL>
      mm yes

  <WSC#DGI137:0390:IN>
      what do you feel about them

  <WSC#DGI137:0395:WL>
      i mainly feel sorry for them because i think anybody who's using
      those er out of date irrelevant criteria for running their life
      in the late twentieth century are doing themselves a lot of
      damage <.>and</.> but i also get quite angry when i see what
      they do to their young

  <WSC#DGI137:0400:WL>
      there are <.>f</.> there are far too many young people
      <&>22:00</&> growing up in an environment in which they er <.>g</.>
      receive this awful propaganda about how sinful and wicked they
      are deep down inside and <.>that</.> that leads to appalling
      selfesteem and quite weird behaviour in response <,>

  <WSC#DGI137:0405:WL>
      it <.>re</.> many <.>young</.> young people really just shut off
      and i <.>have</.> i mean to the point of suicide

  <WSC#DGI137:0410:WL>
      i mean we have cases that <.>have</.> we've been told about of
      young people who've been told that their sexuality is a sin and
      that they have to pray to god to be cured and if prayer fails
      then they may <.>a</.> they'll be going straight to hell and
      that's an appalling thing to tell a young person

  <WSC#DGI137:0415:WL>
      <.>it's</.> it's <.>just</.> it's such appalling rubbish
      <&>23:00</&>
</I>
