<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>0:06</&>
  <&>introduction in Maori not transcribed</&>
  <&>0:11</&>
  

  <WSC#DGI148:0005:IP>
      matiu rata the bill came through yesterday

  <WSC#DGI148:0010:IP>
      it's you say that you're surprised and really astounded by the
      government's reversal on the question of the election programmes
      whereby you won't get a look in

  <WSC#DGI148:0015:IP>
      are you really surprised

  <WSC#DGI148:0020:MR>
      <O>tut</O> no because i <.>w</.> i <.>w</.> <.>act</.> <.>act</.>
      our expectations were if i take <slowly>anything</slowly> from
      the minister's letter which dated on the eighth of august that's
      only just a couple of weeks ago

  <WSC#DGI148:0025:MR>
      <reads>it may be possible to make an adjustment to the criteria
      for allocation of time to political parties to accommodate a
      party concerned only with the contesting of maori seats</reads>

  <WSC#DGI148:0030:MR>
      now <O>clears throat</O> then he <.>s</.> goes on to ask me
      <reads>could you confirm therefore confirm as a matter of
      urgency that mana motuhake's plans remain as expressed in your
      letter of the fifteenth</reads> which was of course we
      <&>1:00</&> were only standing for four seats

  <WSC#DGI148:0035:MR>
      now on the basis that of that letter i could take it without too
      much difficulty that the intent was to accomodate us

  <WSC#DGI148:0040:MR>
      you've got to remember in the nineteen eighty seven election we
      had the lawful right

  <WSC#DGI148:0045:MR>
      what parliament has done has outlawed mana motuhake's right
      <drawls>to</drawls> er to the same principles or <.>the</.> the
      same privileges all other political parties get

  <WSC#DGI148:0050:MR>
      after all we'd qualify in every other sense of the word

  <WSC#DGI148:0055:MR>
      the only thing we couldn't qualify was that er we we the the the
      figure ten

  <WSC#DGI148:0060:MR>
      i mean what's magical about ten

  <WSC#DGI148:0065:MR>
      er i i point out that the conciliator in eighty four was at
      pains to draw attention to the broadcasting authorities that in
      their judgement it was not only cricket but it was it was quite
      improper to withhold <.>the</.> <drawls>the er</drawls>
      principles of free broadcasting and television time to mana
      motuhake GIVEN the circumstance

  <WSC#DGI148:0070:MR>
      in nineteen <&>2:00</&> eighty seven we were allocated er a
      liberal time <{><[>of twenty four</[> minutes and i'd like to
      think that the broadcast television broadcast of mana motuhake
      on that occasion would have won the emmy award for political
      broadcasts and er yet by nineteen ninety we're being outlawed
      for reasons that noone has explained noone has said clearly as
      to why

  <WSC#DGI148:0075:MR>
      so for those reasons i am giving some thought this morning to
      the possibility of issuing an invitation to maori members to now
      er <.>in</.> in <.>a</.> join us on a public platform perhaps in
      auckland and to explain to maori audience why they have joined
      in outlawing mana motuhake's right to television and free
      broadcasting time

  <WSC#DGI148:0080:MR>
      now if they had explained that there was something wrong or that
      we have done something <&>3:00</&> or that we were not entitled
      er then perhaps er <O>voc</O> i may not have heard it <.>un</.>
      unless i've heard them incorrectly er and perhaps because of the
      importance of this election for the challenges that are now
      being made i have a great fear that <O>coughs</O> that what <?><.>the</.></?>
      what the labour government has done is to increase the prospect
      of those who are <.>ac</.> maori people <?>who</?> are actually
      calling for a boycott of the elections that er er er er that you
      almost get er the feeling is that they want er noone to contest
      er the maori members and er <,> and so it is that er we have a
      situation where <,> um where the <?>the</?> labour party is now
      running scared

  <WSC#DGI148:0085:MR>
      now you <.>i</.> it's incredible to <?>er <.>th</.></?> to think
      that on the one hand they have eight THOUsand <&>4:00</&>
      majority in a maori seat and three and a half THOUsand in in
      northern maori and yet despite those massive majorities they're
      running scared

  <WSC#DGI148:0090:MR>
      now that's the only <with gravelly voice>er</with gravelly voice>
      view i could place on it and i'm concerned because the
      opportunity of being able to present to maori people an
      alternative viewpoint <,> so that maori people may accept the
      challenge because i believe that they should go to the polls i
      believe that nothing CAN be done unless the mandate of the maori
      people <.>ag</.> is er is obtained

  <WSC#DGI148:0095:MR>
      now all of this means that major obstacles despite the MASsive
      majorities which in itself is an almost impossible hurdle we're
      now to make sure that we don't have any chance at all by
      outlawing not denying outlawing <&>pronounced as outlawring</&>
      <,> the <drawls>er</drawls> the er right of mana motuhake er <.>a</.>
      and here they've used the full weight of the state and
      <&>5:00</&> the full weight of the law to stop er mana motuhake
      from possibly winning er against the <.>a</.> against the labour
      labour government <latch>

  <WSC#DGI148:0100:IP>
      <[>twenty four minutes</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI148:0105:IP>
      matiu can i just <unclear>word</unclear> ask you here now these
      are laws this new law is relating to television time for <{1><[1>programmes</[1>
      actually the broadcasts where someone gets on and tells you a
      bit about the party

  <WSC#DGI148:0110:IP>
      now er er there's a good argument isn't there that the listeners
      don't want too much of this and that they've got to stop every
      single party in the world insisting on either free time or being
      able to <O>inhales</O> get money together to buy endless time so
      we have the <{2><[2>greens the new</[2> labour the democrats
      mana motuhake sort of taking up sort of two hours of t v time
      right up to the election every night

  <WSC#DGI148:0115:IP>
      now now some people would say that there's a good argument for
      for that to be stopped and just to <{3><[3>keep</[3> it at the
      <.>m</.> at <{4><[4>the big parties</[4>

  <WSC#DGI148:0120:MR>
      <[1>mm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI148:0125:MR>
      <[2><O>inhales</O> <.>w</.></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGI148:0130:MR>
      <[3><O>tut</O></[3></{3>

  <WSC#DGI148:0135:MR>
      <[4>oh well of</[4></{4> course the way to stop that is to hand
      us is to hand the country <drawls>over er</drawls> in the same
      way that the communist parties and others do it overseas

  <WSC#DGI148:0140:MR>
      the way to make sure that we stop people is to make sure that
      those who own money are the only ones who are in power

  <WSC#DGI148:0145:MR>
      i know that sometimes it can <&>6:00</&> be a damn nuisance but
      you don't have to watch it

  <WSC#DGI148:0150:MR>
      i know also that without it democracy in some respects in many
      country er of course er <.>i</.> <.>i</.> is nonexistent

  <WSC#DGI148:0155:MR>
      now the alternative to what we're doing here is to make sure
      that nobody else has an opinion so that those in power remain
      there

  <WSC#DGI148:0160:MR>
      now i i i'm conscious of the fact that er as i've said i think i
      could say without fear or prejudice that the <.>prog</.> the
      television programme that we presented at the last election
      would have by any standards won the political emmy award because
      i don't think i ever got ANYone who said they were bored to
      tears with our television ads and it's a question of how parties
      best do them

  <WSC#DGI148:0165:MR>
      i mean they pay millions and <drawls>er</drawls> um er and i
      think that in many ways er er <drawls>um er</drawls> i think in
      many ways that <.>the</.> they would need <&>7:00</&> <drawls>to
      er</drawls> we need to understand that what we're talking about
      here is the lawful right of every political party in new zealand
      to be able to obtain a level of <.>po</.> political time and a
      level of <.>t</.> radio time AND that the public purse is being
      USED to pay for it

  <WSC#DGI148:0170:MR>
      now as i said i know that er people use it to go and get the
      coffee when television shows are on i <.>know</.> <O>inhales</O>
      but sometimes you know imagine if you are in fact the others
      have got it and you don't have it it is in fact a handicap and a
      major one at that and so er i mean if people didn't want it i
      have yet to see any evidence in new zealand er that people have
      <.>s</.> er have marched on parliament saying don't do it

  <WSC#DGI148:0175:MR>
      i mean they'd prefer not to have it they could do without it but
      that really isn't the issue

  <WSC#DGI148:0180:MR>
      the issue as to why it was necessary to outlaw an existing right
      and to outlaw us er mana <&>8:00</&> motuhake

  <WSC#DGI148:0185:MR>
      er anyone would imagine we were going to somehow er knock them
      off er the whole four seats at the forthcoming election

  <WSC#DGI148:0190:MR>
      i quite frankly i think that <drawls>the er</drawls> this
      treatment of mana motuhake is one that the labour government
      will regret

  <WSC#DGI148:0195:IP>
      what do you think of the thrust of the er group in auckland with
      this boycott who say the real issue for maori now must be
      getting constitutional <?>form or</?> <indig=Maori>tino
      rangatiratanga</indig=Maori> the question of sovereignty and
      they say that politics is pakeha politics and in a sense seem to
      be doing what er a lot of minorities do when the voting system
      is corrupt or is gerrymandered to suit majority parties they're
      turning their backs on it

  <WSC#DGI148:0200:IP>
      it's a pretty good argument isn't it <latch>

  <WSC#DGI148:0205:MR>
      well i mean all <.>tha</.> all i can say is that this bill or
      this law has now reinforced that hasn't it

  <WSC#DGI148:0210:MR>
      i mean it's not a good argument at all

  <WSC#DGI148:0215:MR>
      it is not a good argument

  <WSC#DGI148:0220:MR>
      you don't fight corruption by turning your back on it
      <&>9:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI148:0225:IP>
      but many minorities in the world for example new caledonia and
      minorities when they find that the vote is ghettoised or rigged
      against them they they they they the first act <{><[>that they
      use is a</[> boycott isn't it <latch>

  <WSC#DGI148:0230:MR>
      <[><O>tut</O> oh no look</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI148:0235:MR>
      <?>look</?> let me say that it is quite a <.>ni</.> a legitimate
      expression but it is only a good one when you know that you can
      influence the outcome of the election

  <WSC#DGI148:0240:MR>
      in this event it'll <.>a</.> it will achieve nothing

  <WSC#DGI148:0245:MR>
      in this event what it will do is simply keep those who are the
      problem in power <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGI148:0250:MR>
      now i'm saying elections are about getting rid of people and i'm
      saying to our people accept the challenge for what it is

  <WSC#DGI148:0255:MR>
      dump them

  <WSC#DGI148:0260:MR>
      don't sit on your behind and do nothing and don't adopt the soft
      option and you know the fact you cannot turn your back on the
      judgement of maori people

  <WSC#DGI148:0265:MR>
      they're not turning their back on pakehas at all

  <WSC#DGI148:0270:MR>
      what they're doing is they're turning their back on the
      collective judgement of maori people and i'm saying and they are
      being <.>la</.> er aided and abetted now by a government that is
      corrupt <&>10:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI148:0275:IP>
      <.>the</.> the royal commission on the electoral system said
      first of all that the maori seats were a backwater secondly they
      said the voting system was unfair for maori and thirdly they
      recognised that the four maori seats were um um had increasingly
      a bad institution because they didn't allow for efficient or
      effective or fair representation

  <WSC#DGI148:0280:IP>
      the electorates are too large etcetera

  <WSC#DGI148:0285:IP>
      aren't the group in auckland saying in effect the same thing
      <latch>

  <WSC#DGI148:0290:MR>
      <O>tut</O> they are but there is a difference

  <WSC#DGI148:0295:MR>
      they're both sitting on their selfrighteous indignation

  <WSC#DGI148:0300:MR>
      it's easy enough to sit out there and criticise it

  <WSC#DGI148:0305:MR>
      how in the HELL do they think they can change it by sitting on
      their arses doing nothing

  <WSC#DGI148:0310:MR>
      i'm saying to them it is what you're not telling me anything new
      you're telling me the <.>obv</.> the obvious but it is a
      different matter when you have to go to the platform and get a
      mandate for what they're telling me

  <WSC#DGI148:0315:MR>
      i'm i <.>i</.> i concur enTIREly with the commission's view but
      it is one thing to tell me and it is a one thing to use that as
      an <&>11:00</&> excuse to do nothing

  <WSC#DGI148:0320:MR>
      the only way that the views of the royal commission can be
      affected is by political decisions on the mandate of people and
      er so they're not telling me anything

  <WSC#DGI148:0325:MR>
      in addition those who believe that this election should now be
      <.>boyc</.> er we should boycott what is the purpose

  <WSC#DGI148:0330:MR>
      what are they saying to us that we don't have our own minds to
      make up our own minds to shift

  <WSC#DGI148:0335:MR>
      i know the task is impossible i know but i'm not prepared to
      throw away the mandate of maori people and their collective
      opinion because we think it's too hard

  <WSC#DGI148:0340:MR>
      all i'm saying to them if there were ever a time in the history
      of of of er of er of our people in the last fifty years for the
      FIRST time we are in in a position to make a breakthrough and to
      make sure we don't make that breakthrough the government has
      outlawed our ability to do so

  <WSC#DGI148:0345:MR>
      now that's <.>re</.> the only assumption i can come to

  <WSC#DGI148:0350:MR>
      now um <O>voc</O> they have their right er i know that people do
      have a <&>12:00</&> right but let's not give them the
      credibility of that

  <WSC#DGI148:0355:MR>
      let's say to them come and join us

  <WSC#DGI148:0360:MR>
      what's wrong with joining us in <?>removing it</?>

  <WSC#DGI148:0365:MR>
      if you don't like our policies if you don't like the policies of
      others then YOU put up a policy

  <WSC#DGI148:0370:IP>
      <?>well</?> one of the things the group is doing is attacking
      mana motuhake

  <WSC#DGI148:0375:IP>
      <{><[>do you think do you</[>

  <WSC#DGI148:0380:MR>
      <[>of course</[></{> they are <latch>

  <WSC#DGI148:0385:IP>
      do you think they should be doing that

  <WSC#DGI148:0390:MR>
      no i mean what are they what i'm saying is it's not just an
      attack on mana motuhake it's an anti maori attack

  <WSC#DGI148:0395:IP>
      this this the kia mohio kia marama <{1><[1><indig=Maori><.>ti</.></indig=Maori></[1>
      <indig=Maori>tino rangatiratanga</indig=Maori> in what <{2><[2>way
      is it <?>an attack</?></[2>

  <WSC#DGI148:0400:MR>
      <[1>right</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI148:0405:MR>
      <[2>i have never</[2></{2> in in <.>i</.> in a maori way if they
      were genuinely concerned for the wellbeing of maori people they
      would've come out months before this instead of right on the eve
      of the elections and they would've exposed it on the
      <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori> they would've exposed it in
      maori meetings

  <WSC#DGI148:0410:MR>
      instead of that they exposed it in the media

  <WSC#DGI148:0415:MR>
      at no time have they confronted me or mana motuhake

  <WSC#DGI148:0420:MR>
      at no time have they come to a maori <indig=Maori>hui</indig=Maori>
      and have said to maori <&>13:00</&> people look here <,> <O>tut</O>
      i think the time has arrived when we should take collective
      action and not do anything and not vote at all

  <WSC#DGI148:0425:MR>
      instead of that what they have done is that they've kept it to
      themselves so that nobody can get around them or debate with
      them

  <WSC#DGI148:0430:MR>
      they've issued it not to maori people but issued it to the media

  <WSC#DGI148:0435:MR>
      i <.>ha</.> i received a letter from them er about er two months
      ago inviting us to comment on the <indig=Maori>tino rangatira</indig=Maori>
      question quite a proper letter but i was staggered when i found
      that actually the letter was deceitful

  <WSC#DGI148:0440:MR>
      they had no intentions of actually getting <.>the</.> getting
      the information for the purposes to which they wrote about but
      was merely trying to <.>a</.> summarise what they thought they
      already knew so that they can actually go to the back door and
      say this is one reason we're not gonna do certain things

  <WSC#DGI148:0445:MR>
      i think that that was despicable to say the least

  <WSC#DGI148:0450:MR>
      why didn't they <&>14:00</&> have the courage to face up to us
      and face their own people and say to their own people it is in
      our mind that this is in fact is the evidence we've uncovered

  <WSC#DGI148:0455:MR>
      in two months they find that and then tell us

  <WSC#DGI148:0460:MR>
      i think that they er one almost gets the view that they're
      cahooting with the government to make sure that maori members so
      their attack on mana motuhake is an attack on every other maori

  <WSC#DGI148:0465:MR>
      it's an anti maori attack

  <WSC#DGI148:0470:MR>
      it's not an anti pakeha one

  <WSC#DGI148:0475:MR>
      it's an anti maori attack

  <WSC#DGI148:0480:IP>
      is some of the frustration in a way that a group a maori group
      is er you've got the the government's broadcast they're shutting
      out mana motuhake er and here you've got a maori group coming at
      it from another angle with something very damaging

  <WSC#DGI148:0485:IP>
      do you sense that perhaps mana motuhake is really on the brink
      of getting a seat and is that why the situation is critical <{><[>for
      the party</[>

  <WSC#DGI148:0490:MR>
      <[>well i</[></{> it appears to me that they're more fearful of
      mana motuhake than they are of the corrupt practices of the
      labour government

  <WSC#DGI148:0495:MR>
      it seems to me that what in fact and i've got no beg your
      pardons for people who are <&>15:00</&> going to stand in the
      way of the mandate of their own people and let's remember mana
      motuhake has been square up front and have said to maori people
      we will change nothing unless it's with your endorsement or
      support

  <WSC#DGI148:0500:MR>
      we will adhere strictly to the rule of law and your rule

  <WSC#DGI148:0505:MR>
      we're not talking about er and er and let me say that i will
      defend that right and i will defend the right of maori people to
      have a collective opinion and even if and i accept totally that
      the current position that's one of the reasons why mana motuhake
      supports electoral reform

  <WSC#DGI148:0510:MR>
      that's one of the reasons why mana motuhake is saying the best
      possible er hope that we've got in this is to pursue a policy
      that would see us establish proportional representation so that
      we could broaden the scope of our parliamentary representation
      and strengthen our position in parliament but oh no <&>16:00</&>
      what they want to do is for us to hand the mandate to them and
      then proceed if you like <O>sniffs</O> to decide issues as they
      see fit without further reference to us we're not having any of
      that and this is the first time i've heard from this group

  <WSC#DGI148:0515:MR>
      this is the first time i've heard from these people

  <WSC#DGI148:0520:MR>
      they've contributed nothing to the political life of maori
      people then they have the GALL er to be able to to to tell us
      that in their judgement this is what we should do <latch>

  <WSC#DGI148:0525:IP>
      is <.>i</.> is it fair to say that syd jackson and others have
      made no contribution

  <WSC#DGI148:0530:IP>
      <.>i</.> <.>i</.> i've got a question about this er matiu

  <WSC#DGI148:0535:IP>
      really the <O>inhales</O> the <.>a</.> although er although your
      concern about it er relates to the throwing away as you say of a
      vote or um <{1><[1>the fact that it's</[1> come on on the scene
      late there's a whole question here of a younger set in maoridom
      those who're involved in treaty cases and those involved in
      <&>17:00</&> the maori legal activity the kia mohio kia marama
      trust who have been fairly consistent on the question of
      <indig=Maori>tino rangatiratanga</indig=Maori> haven't they and
      <{2><[2>they do</[2>

  <WSC#DGI148:0540:MR>
      <[1><O>tut</O> <O>inhales</O></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGI148:0545:MR>
      <[2>for how</[2></{2> long <latch>

  <WSC#DGI148:0550:IP>
      they do <{><[>have a <.>good</.></[>

  <WSC#DGI148:0555:MR>
      <[>for how</[></{> long

  <WSC#DGI148:0560:MR>
      two months

  <WSC#DGI148:0565:MR>
      now look we're talking about credibility here

  <WSC#DGI148:0570:MR>
      we're talking about in nineteen er and i want to say this they
      have the gall to suggest that their opinion on <indig=Maori>tino
      rangatiratanga's</indig=Maori> the only one and i'm saying the
      only way you can test that is to go to your people and get a
      mandate

  <WSC#DGI148:0575:MR>
      now according to them the way to achieve this mandate is to
      simply not have a collective view at all

  <WSC#DGI148:0580:MR>
      i'm not quarrelling with their right to do as they please and
      i'm not quarrelling with their contribution to political
      activities in the past

  <WSC#DGI148:0585:MR>
      i've worked close with er mister jackson and and er most of
      these people for almost all of my political life

  <WSC#DGI148:0590:MR>
      that's not what i'm on about what i am saying is that their
      attack syd jackson was reported as actually stating that he had
      asked maori <&>18:00</&> people not to vote for mana motuhake

  <WSC#DGI148:0595:MR>
      why didn't you say not to vote labour or not to vote national or
      not to vote greens but no not to vote <.>ma</.> mana motuhake

  <WSC#DGI148:0600:MR>
      for what purpose was er with that er with that invitation and it
      was simply because the election of mana motuhake means that it
      will remove the platform that they have enjoyed for so long in
      being able to stand out there say what they like and account to
      noone <&>18:30</&>
</I>
