<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>0:05</&>
  

  <WSC#DGI167:0005:IM>
      now we need to ask you you've done a document on bulk funding
      strengthening government control over maori education

  <WSC#DGI167:0010:IM>
      <{><[><.>what</.></[>

  <WSC#DGI167:0015:LP>
      <[>that's</[></{> right <latch>

  <WSC#DGI167:0020:IM>
      what created the climate for that

  <WSC#DGI167:0025:LP>
      well <drawls>for</drawls> quite a long time leading up to bulk
      funding when the <O>voc</O> the government was talking about
      that possibility <O>inhales</O> lots of maori teachers in
      particular and maori parents have talked about what it would do
      for maori education

  <WSC#DGI167:0030:LP>
      would it <drawls>be</drawls> a plus or would it be a minus and
      <drawls>er</drawls> most of us have actually come to the
      conclusion that it won't be a plus <,> and er because of all
      this discussion that went along we decided that maybe we should
      put our thoughts down in in on paper

  <WSC#DGI167:0035:IM>
      okay let's <.>g</.> and pathfind our way through some of these
      <.>th</.> <.>sor</.> er thoughts that you had to deal with to
      arrive at your final document

  <WSC#DGI167:0040:IM>
      in <&>1:00</&> your intro there were some comments made

  <WSC#DGI167:0045:IM>
      where did you find the comments and what <,> the people who gave
      the comments to you how did they arrive at them

  <WSC#DGI167:0050:LP>
      well what we had is we our <.>m</.> initially <O>voc</O> i put
      together a lot lots of different um ideas that had come forward
      from different maori people and then i took the the draft er
      information to a meeting of komiti maori which includes <drawls>er</drawls>
      preschool teachers <?>you know</?> <indig=Maori><?>kaiarahi reo</?></indig=Maori>
      um primary school teachers and secondary school teachers and i
      put the whole document to them and said to them how do you feel
      about this

  <WSC#DGI167:0055:LP>
      now the comments that came back were from teachers that are
      actually already in schools that are bulk funded <,> and er so
      their their feelings of it

  <WSC#DGI167:0060:LP>
      it's a very stressful situation <,> that they have to be
      preplanned so well

  <WSC#DGI167:0065:LP>
      er every pencil <&>2:00</&> or bit of paper that they're going
      to be used in the coming up year they have to account for um and
      so that's really where the comments came from

  <WSC#DGI167:0070:LP>
      they they there was four of them at the meeting that were
      already in bulk funded schools

  <WSC#DGI167:0075:IM>
      so <.>we've</.> <?>we all</?> established that these people that
      you've got comments from have worked on the coalfront of this
      situation called bulk funding

  <WSC#DGI167:0080:IM>
      can you tell us some of the comments that came out of your
      findings please

  <WSC#DGI167:0085:LP>
      <O>tut</O> well the the main things were <?>was</?> the fact
      that they felt it created extra work

  <WSC#DGI167:0090:LP>
      i mean besides actually having to work in the classroom they had
      to do this accounting kind of process to work out exactly how
      much money they were going to need in the coming up year and
      they had to have this <.>b</.> um budget in by a certain time
      <,> otherwise they they didn't get any money for the next year
      <,>

  <WSC#DGI167:0095:LP>
      er everything had to be fine down to absolute detail and as well
      as that they there were things that they had got in previous
      times that they didn't get now <&>3:00</&> like they <.>y</.>
      <.>y</.> you couldn't employ external teachers <.>with</.> NOW
      <,> but they could before <,> um <,> <O>tut</O> the pressure of
      the system on them and and a lot of it too is the fact that <.>m</.>
      maori education they felt was a low priority in most situations

  <WSC#DGI167:0100:IM>
      now when they say that if you don't put your <.>bul</.> er your
      <,> accounts in your budget in you lose <.>the</.> um <O>inhales</O>
      you lose the funding <?><O>inhales</O></?> <.>wouldn't</.> is
      that a blackmailing tactic <&>crossover between MG and LP
      obliterates less than one second of speech</&>

  <WSC#DGI167:0105:LP>
      it appears to me to be a <.>blackmai</.> mailing function but um
      of course it's not seen as that it's seen as um selfmanagement
      isn't it <,>

  <WSC#DGI167:0110:IM>
      <drawls>mm</drawls>

  <WSC#DGI167:0115:IM>
      okay we move on <drawls>to</drawls> what's so new about maori
      education having low priority <indig=Maori><?>mae ra no tena
      kaupapa</?></indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI167:0120:LP>
      yeah it isn't new it isn't new at all but what we're saying is
      that er <O>voc</O> maori people are being <drawls>misled</drawls>
      to think that by getting bulk funding all of these <indig=Maori><?>ngawe</?></indig=Maori>
      that were <.>th</.> there before are going to be repaired
      <&>4:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI167:0125:IM>
      mm

  <WSC#DGI167:0130:LP>
      which is not the case at all

  <WSC#DGI167:0135:LP>
      i mean those those things have been there all the time and we've
      asked constantly to have them rectified and bulk funding is not
      going to fix them

  <WSC#DGI167:0140:IM>
      now when <,> trustees they are the main instigators to putting
      budgets together the trustees of the <{><[>schools?</[>

  <WSC#DGI167:0145:LP>
      <[><O>tut</O></[></{> <.>the</.> they're part of the process cos
      part of it is that the the school itself has to decide well
      virtually what their <.>wish</.> wishlist is going to be and
      then that gets <.>c</.> um cut back <.>accord</.> to fit the
      budget

  <WSC#DGI167:0150:IM>
      now it's all right if your trustee's had professional er
      experiences

  <WSC#DGI167:0155:IM>
      those of and the majority of maoris i'm not sure this is just a
      generalisation here would <.>have</.> would <.>w</.> have or
      have not that backup

  <WSC#DGI167:0160:IM>
      what is the <.>re</.> what is the added stress to that

  <WSC#DGI167:0165:LP>
      well <.>y</.> you end up like for instance say for instance
      maori language factor money <,>

  <WSC#DGI167:0170:LP>
      that's allocated according to the number of maori children you
      have in schools and initially when <&>5:00</&> it was first er
      put forward it was asked that maori people be given the right to
      make decisions as to how that money would be spent <,> but in
      lots of situations to actually cover the shortfall in other
      places that's just been taken into the general <indig=Maori>putea</indig=Maori>
      <,> and so maori people then have to front up and say well what
      about that maori language factor money

  <WSC#DGI167:0175:LP>
      you know let's have it

  <WSC#DGI167:0180:LP>
      where is it and those kinds of things so it's it's actually
      quite difficult <&>pronounced as difficul</&> that if you happen
      to be one maori board member on a board of trustees that you go
      up against everybody else who can <drawls>see</drawls> that the
      bills are really you know really bad for the school and <.>s</.>
      and so can that maori person as well but do you fight for that
      money or what do you do

  <WSC#DGI167:0185:IM>
      right

  <WSC#DGI167:0190:IM>
      has that question been answered by anybody other than ourselves

  <WSC#DGI167:0195:LP>
      no in most cases no <O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DGI167:0200:LP>
      there isn't any longterm benefits for our <indig=Maori>tamariki</indig=Maori>
      in the school that er it by getting bulk funding that isn't
      <indig=Maori>tino rangatiratanga</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DGI167:0205:IM>
      what is it <&>6:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI167:0210:LP>
      yeah <.>it</.> it's what the document says

  <WSC#DGI167:0215:LP>
      it's a means by <.>which</.> which the government actually
      strengthens their hold <,>

  <WSC#DGI167:0220:LP>
      i think maoris are being <&>telephone rings</&> misled to to
      think that if you get bulk funding <O>tut</O> then you are given
      this <indig=Maori>putea</indig=Maori> and then you can do with
      it what you want which is fine

  <WSC#DGI167:0225:LP>
      you can do that but <,> they also because they GIVE you the
      <indig=Maori>putea</indig=Maori> have the right to then say to
      you er well we don't have <O>voc</O> the same amount of money as
      we did last year so we're going to be cutting you down and so
      that <indig=Maori>putea</indig=Maori> that goes to you again to
      do with <?>it</?> as you want starts to shrink but you don't
      have any control over that whatsoever

  <WSC#DGI167:0230:IM>
      <O>voc</O> <.>the</.> the biggest statement that you've said is
      that the government wants to strengthen its control over us

  <WSC#DGI167:0235:IM>
      is this a psychological need <.>or</.> or why do they want to

  <WSC#DGI167:0240:IM>
      i mean there's nothing to control any more

  <WSC#DGI167:0245:IM>
      in terms of maori things they've controlled it all

  <WSC#DGI167:0250:IM>
      why do they still want to keep at <,> flogging a dead horse
      <&>7:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI167:0255:LP>
      well <.>i</.> i think it's um it's the cunning message that's
      being put across

  <WSC#DGI167:0260:LP>
      it's not the fact that it's going to change from what it's been
      before but it's the fact that maori people are being led to
      believe it's going to change

  <WSC#DGI167:0265:LP>
      i <.>th</.> i <.>r</.> it's they're still going to control it

  <WSC#DGI167:0270:LP>
      they've <.>s</.> controlled it right up to now and that's why
      we're in the situation that we're in and they will continue to
      control it but then don't tell us that you're going to get the
      right to do with it as you want when that's not true <,>

  <WSC#DGI167:0275:IM>
      listening to a few coalfront maoris around the country they are
      now having this er stance that they don't believe the government
      any longer so can this ploy keep working the way it is

  <WSC#DGI167:0280:LP>
      <O>tut</O> i think something has to happen to turn it around
      because er i mean it's cost cutting and that's all there is to
      it <,>

  <WSC#DGI167:0285:LP>
      there's no um nice words to make it any different and i think
      something has to happen because um as far as maori are concerned
      <O>voc</O> the statistics <.>s</.> <&>8:00</&> speak for
      themselves

  <WSC#DGI167:0290:LP>
      i mean we don't have to do any research <.>into</.> to tell us
      that maori are failing

  <WSC#DGI167:0295:IM>
      what do you think will show itself as something <.>st</.> <?>that's</?>
      starting to happen

  <WSC#DGI167:0300:LP>
      <O>tut</O> <O>inhales</O> yes well that's a difficult one to
      answer

  <WSC#DGI167:0305:LP>
      i don't really know

  <WSC#DGI167:0310:LP>
      it's several several things and no doubt in spite of all of
      these government changes maori people will continue to work for
      maori education and they will do it <drawls>um</drawls> in the
      name of <indig=Maori>aroha</indig=Maori> and all the rest of it
      <,> but it just seems to me that that's that's unfair

  <WSC#DGI167:0315:IM>
      being unfair what have maoris to say about the whole situation

  <WSC#DGI167:0320:IM>
      we hear what you say the educationalists

  <WSC#DGI167:0325:IM>
      bulk funding <O>inhales</O> is in a way control <{><[>and</[> we
      hear a LOT of snippets of maoris giving us the realities of
      maoridom out there and the statistics the scrapheaps

  <WSC#DGI167:0330:IM>
      you name it we'll do it

  <WSC#DGI167:0335:LP>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI167:0340:LP>
      mm <latch>

  <WSC#DGI167:0345:IM>
      <.>w</.> we own that <,>

  <WSC#DGI167:0350:IM>
      what have maoris really got to say and how should they say it

  <WSC#DGI167:0355:LP>
      well say for instance the the situation of having a
      <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa maori</indig=Maori> <&>9:00</&> school

  <WSC#DGI167:0360:LP>
      um when you have that opportunity presented to you on a on a
      plate for instance most maori are actually going to take it up
      and say yes yes that's exactly what we want and the initial
      grant of setting up your <indig=Maori>kura kaupapa</indig=Maori>
      is fine but then what about the the <indig=Maori>akeake</indig=Maori>
      after that

  <WSC#DGI167:0365:LP>
      i mean i've i heard yesterday about a <indig=Maori>kohanga</indig=Maori>
      that was closing because it doesn't have the finance to continue
      on and i mean the cake stalls in the area that it happens to be
      in it's just impossible

  <WSC#DGI167:0370:LP>
      the local people don't have the money to continue to cake stall
      or or <?>batons</?> up or raffles or whatever to keep the whole
      place going and <.>i</.> i mean that's that's the the stark
      reality on the other side and i think when mere clark wrote her
      part of the report that's what she actually was trying to point
      out to maori people to look beyond what's just in front of us

  <WSC#DGI167:0375:IM>
      if we're so much in pain and that seems to imply that now it's
      hard to get above your pain and give longterm views?
      <&>10:00</&>

  <WSC#DGI167:0380:LP>
      oh no oh no no no i i think that we're we are a permanent
      optimistic race we are <latch>

  <WSC#DGI167:0385:IM>
      <laughs>are we

  <WSC#DGI167:0390:IM>
      <{><[>oh</[> that's good</laughs> <latch>

  <WSC#DGI167:0395:LP>
      <[>and</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI167:0400:LP>
      and i think we have to be because otherwise if <.>w</.> if we
      let ourselves go down well we might as well give up the race

  <WSC#DGI167:0405:LP>
      <?>hell</?> we've survived too long now to give up

  <WSC#DGI167:0410:IM>
      that aside what have maori said about the whole issues

  <WSC#DGI167:0415:LP>
      specifically <.>it</.> i've dealt mostly with teachers but what
      has been heartening about the report is that er i've had lots of
      maori boards of trustees phone me and ask for copies so that
      they could take it to THEIR boards of trustees and <.>to</.> and
      to actually have meetings in their community about the whole
      thing so <.>i</.> it actually tells me that <.>m</.> maori
      people are listening <O>voc</O> they are reading and they are
      saying here's another point of view

  <WSC#DGI167:0420:LP>
      let's look at this and see how <.>th</.> you know how that fits
      us so that's really good

  <WSC#DGI167:0425:IM>
      and there was a <indig=Maori>hui</indig=Maori> with
      <indig=Maori>manatu maori hui</indig=Maori> on bulk funding <{><[>in</[>
      march

  <WSC#DGI167:0430:IM>
      how did that go

  <WSC#DGI167:0435:LP>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGI167:0440:LP>
      <O>tut</O> well that was more of a factfinding situation

  <WSC#DGI167:0445:LP>
      <.>it</.> that went fine in in that it was just a really a
      discussion about it and to <.>fou</.> <&>11:00</&> find out how
      people were feeling <O>inhales</O> <O>tut</O> and er kahu
      wakatipu came down from rakaumanga and at that particular
      meeting he SAID that this whole thing of actually having to ask
      like the maori language factor money ASK for it back is is yet
      another situation where maori people are put in this situation
      of <indig=Maori>whakaiti</indig=Maori> again <O>inhales</O> and
      um he didn't think that that should be part of the whole deal
      <&>11:26</&>
</I>
