<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>1:05</&>
  

  <WSC#DGZ053:0005:X1>
      right so um just to clarify here <,,> <O>voc</O>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0010:X1>
      <slowly>jim um has <,> given me</slowly> a paper

  <WSC#DGZ053:0015:X1>
      now who else has seen this paper <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0020:CS>
      <{><[>i got it this morning</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0025:JM>
      <[>just er</[></{> just jane and emma <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0030:PK>
      no i haven't no

  <WSC#DGZ053:0035:JM>
      yeah <,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0040:AQ>
      well can we have a copy

  <WSC#DGZ053:0045:X1>
      yep i'll pass this around <,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0050:X1>
      basically just to clarify

  <WSC#DGZ053:0055:X1>
      what we didn't know was whether or not jim would be putting out
      <,> paper <,> recommending any changes to the total visual arts
      programme for next year

  <WSC#DGZ053:0060:X1>
      and this <.>i</.> he has put up his recommendations that the the
      visual arts pure papers DON'T change

  <WSC#DGZ053:0065:X1>
      there are some <O>tut</O> minor recommendations and some slight
      panel structure which i'd like you to take us through

  <WSC#DGZ053:0070:X1>
      but basically if i've understood that <&>2:00</&> all correctly
      we're talking about virtually no change <{><[>in the pure visual
      arts</[> programmes

  <WSC#DGZ053:0075:??>
      <[><quietly>right <,> <unclear>word</unclear></quietly></[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0080:JM>
      in the structure of the programme <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0085:X1>
      in the structure of the <{1><[1>programmes</[1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0090:X1>
      <{2><[2>right</[2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0095:JM>
      <[1>yeah</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0100:X2>
      <[2>didn't</[2></{2> know your programmes were pure jim <O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0105:??>
      <O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0110:X1>
      the JOINT visual arts schemes that involve <,> a film programme
      a craft programme <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0115:??>
      mm

  <WSC#DGZ053:0120:X1>
      i want to have a discussion about here <{><[>because <,> um we
      has agreed that there would be a a discussion at this point</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0125:X1>
      so if there are to be any alterations a discussion should take
      place and it needs to go to the council

  <WSC#DGZ053:0130:X1>
      so i know that er jim's put up some proposals and has had a
      discussion with jane and emma

  <WSC#DGZ053:0135:??>
      <[><quietly>because greg graham <unclear>word</unclear></quietly></[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0140:??>
      <softly>mm</softly>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0145:X1>
      and we need to clarify here as to <,> where that sits <,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0150:X1>
      jane i'm <.>s</.> i'm

  <WSC#DGZ053:0155:X1>
      did you catch all that or not <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0160:CS>
      yep <,> sort of i'm just helping lorraine organise the meeting
      room and then

  <WSC#DGZ053:0165:CS>
      we'd booked this room you see

  <WSC#DGZ053:0170:X1>
      <quietly><?>yes okay</?></quietly>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0175:CS>
      yeah

  <WSC#DGZ053:0180:JM>
      have you found them

  <WSC#DGZ053:0185:JM>
      <?>did you get one</?> <&>3:00</&>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0190:CS>
      no no because she's trying to organise that at the moment

  <WSC#DGZ053:0195:JM>
      oh

  <WSC#DGZ053:0200:X1>
      <O>clears throat</O> all right so we need <.>t</.> to

  <WSC#DGZ053:0205:X1>
      i want to clarify this er this visual arts area so

  <WSC#DGZ053:0210:X1>
      clarify just the what the paper will <,> say

  <WSC#DGZ053:0215:X1>
      <{><[>the</[> visual arts programme paper

  <WSC#DGZ053:0220:X1>
      and part two of that is

  <WSC#DGZ053:0225:X1>
      and it could be the same paper

  <WSC#DGZ053:0230:X1>
      the um what what will be done with the the joint visual arts
      schemes

  <WSC#DGZ053:0235:X1>
      so i'd like <.>t</.> <.>t</.> but he'll deal with that as a as a
      grouping

  <WSC#DGZ053:0240:X1>
      and then emma wants to um raise the issue of possible
      commissioning scheme paper

  <WSC#DGZ053:0245:X1>
      so i'd like to take those three things as a block while jane is
      still here

  <WSC#DGZ053:0250:X1>
      now <.>we'd</.> we'll see how long it takes because i know we'd
      like to go straight on to auckland theatre after that

  <WSC#DGZ053:0255:PK>
      <[><O>coughs</O></[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0260:CS>
      <{><[><quietly>okay</quietly></[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0265:EW>
      <[>could i just</[></{> ask jim a question

  <WSC#DGZ053:0270:AQ>
      roseanne can you pour me some coffee

  <WSC#DGZ053:0275:X2>
      <{><[>oh <unclear>word</unclear></[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0280:EW>
      <[>oh i <.>r</.></[></{> <.>w</.>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0285:EW>
      <{1><[1>we had</[1> a discussion in about <.>ge</.> general
      unrest amongst the the <{2><[2>visual arts sector</[2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0290:??>
      <[1><O>clears throat</O></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0295:X2>
      <[2><whispers>do you have milk and sugar</whispers></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0300:AQ>
      <whispers>no</whispers> <latch> <&>4:00</&>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0305:EW>
      with regard to the way the commission programme was operating

  <WSC#DGZ053:0310:EW>
      and i i believe that you discussed with us <.>th</.> um the fact
      that you were going to in some way um <,,> look at the
      reestablishment of the individual

  <WSC#DGZ053:0315:JM>
      projects <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0320:EW>
      er projects

  <WSC#DGZ053:0325:EW>
      and <.>i</.> if what natalie's saying is right <,,><&>3</&> in
      that the the <.>r</.> pure programmes are going to stand as they
      are

  <WSC#DGZ053:0330:EW>
      does that mean they're not going to do that

  <WSC#DGZ053:0335:JM>
      yep

  <WSC#DGZ053:0340:JM>
      <drawls>i</drawls> <,> PLAYED this one out with jane

  <WSC#DGZ053:0345:JM>
      we met for an hour and a half yesterday and worked with nat last
      night <,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0350:JM>
      i don't HAVE an answer

  <WSC#DGZ053:0355:JM>
      i don't have a mechanism for responding to some criticism <,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0360:JM>
      and on the basis that there is apparently no new MONEY available
      <&>5:00</&> i would be loath to recommend at this point

  <WSC#DGZ053:0365:JM>
      particularly as i'm departing

  <WSC#DGZ053:0370:JM>
      that money was taken from other schemes

  <WSC#DGZ053:0375:JM>
      so although i <,> HEAR some of the concern and SHARE some of it

  <WSC#DGZ053:0380:JM>
      my recommendation will be that we keep the programme in place
      for at LEAST another year before looking at a mechanism to
      respond to that criticism

  <WSC#DGZ053:0385:JM>
      that the that <O>voc</O>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0390:JM>
      that also here i don't give an <.>answer</.>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0395:JM>
      i don't have a mechanism and i <,,><&>3</&> um asked jane the
      same question and she didn't come up with a mechanism either

  <WSC#DGZ053:0400:JM>
      i FLOATED with jane and nat the idea of of making the fellowship
      contestable <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0405:JM>
      contestable bag of money for a year

  <WSC#DGZ053:0410:JM>
      and no one <O>voc</O> seems to think that that's a good idea

  <WSC#DGZ053:0415:JM>
      and we're likely to have to put the research bag into the
      fellowship ANYWAY because it currently has a small programme
      that's <.>d</.> that that has um decisions agreed to by council

  <WSC#DGZ053:0420:JM>
      so that would be the only change <&>6:00</&>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0425:JM>
      that we er put the research into the fellowship and <{><[>create
      a research fellowship</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0430:??>
      <[>how much is that</[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0435:X1>
      thirty

  <WSC#DGZ053:0440:JM>
      in the research programme?

  <WSC#DGZ053:0445:JM>
      yeah yeah yeah

  <WSC#DGZ053:0450:PK>
      jim what what er

  <WSC#DGZ053:0455:PK>
      i haven't read any of these papers so <?>i might get some at the
      end of the</?> day

  <WSC#DGZ053:0460:PK>
      <{1><[1><O>voc</O> yeah no no that's okay

  <WSC#DGZ053:0465:PK>
      it's not a criticism

  <WSC#DGZ053:0470:PK>
      it's just a comment</[1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0475:PK>
      um what is the what is the

  <WSC#DGZ053:0480:PK>
      um has been the <,> the scale of your your um survey of the of
      <,> the <{2><[2><?>component</?></[2> the users of the progammes
      in terms of the <,,> feedback you know <,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0485:PK>
      <O>tut</O> i'm just trying to get a sense of how of <{3><[3>how
      how</[3>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0490:JM>
      <[1>no patrick it comes it comes to you today <O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0495:JM>
      yeah yeah yeah</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0500:JM>
      <[2><O>clears throat</O></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0505:JM>
      <[3>oh <,></[3></{3> we i mean <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0510:PK>
      how widespread the concern about the absence of the or the the
      disestablishment of the projects <,> <{><[><?>scandal</?></[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0515:JM>
      <[>um</[></{> as the report states the only people that have
      been asked to respond from this year are panel <{1><[1>members
      and we've</[1> got those who cared to respond in writing

  <WSC#DGZ053:0520:JM>
      <{2><[2>and they're not great

  <WSC#DGZ053:0525:JM>
      the quality</[2> of the analysis is is weak um

  <WSC#DGZ053:0530:JM>
      and you've got copies of those that <{3><[3>have come</[3>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0535:PK>
      <[1>oh right</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0540:PK>
      <[2>no no no</[2></{2> <&>7:00</&>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0545:PK>
      <[3>right right</[3></{3>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0550:JM>
      <O>tut</O> um other that there's one letter from <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0555:PK>
      mm i remember

  <WSC#DGZ053:0560:PK>
      <{><[><,> yeah</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0565:JM>
      <[>you read that</[></{> to jackie and i

  <WSC#DGZ053:0570:JM>
      and we <.>res</.> we agreed on the response

  <WSC#DGZ053:0575:JM>
      and we made the same comment <{><[>that</[> we HEAR the concern
      um

  <WSC#DGZ053:0580:PK>
      <[>right</[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0585:PK>
      that was from pamela <?>wasn't it

  <WSC#DGZ053:0590:PK>
      was that the one <{><[>from pamela</?></[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0595:JM>
      <[>no from</[></{> jackie barraud and a <{1><[1>a</[1> range of
      artists in auckland

  <WSC#DGZ053:0600:JM>
      <{2><[2>that</[2> we hear the concern and that we are in the
      process of doing analysis

  <WSC#DGZ053:0605:JM>
      and council at its meeting in june will make <?>any</?>
      decisions

  <WSC#DGZ053:0610:PK>
      <[1>oh</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0615:PK>
      <[2>oh</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0620:PK>
      <quietly>right</quietly> <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0625:JM>
      um <,> yeah yeah

  <WSC#DGZ053:0630:JM>
      so yeah that's as <.>much</.>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0635:JM>
      i mean my <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0640:CS>
      oh is this paper GOING to council now

  <WSC#DGZ053:0645:JM>
      no <{><[>no</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0650:CS>
      <[>well</[></{> so why what what will council decide

  <WSC#DGZ053:0655:JM>
      if we put up a case for a new programme then council would have
      to make that <{1><[1>decision

  <WSC#DGZ053:0660:JM>
      yeah yeah</[1> yeah

  <WSC#DGZ053:0665:JM>
      and one of the <{2><[2>ones that i floated</[2> was the
      fellowship but noone thinks it's a good idea <{3><[3>so</[3> i'm
      lost to <&>8:00</&> come up with another idea

  <WSC#DGZ053:0670:JM>
      my instinct is actually to leave it

  <WSC#DGZ053:0675:JM>
      my instinct is to <{4><[4>leave</[4> it for another year

  <WSC#DGZ053:0680:JM>
      i believe that er one year is not enough time to really
      effectively evaluate how effective the schemes are

  <WSC#DGZ053:0685:JM>
      so that's my instinct

  <WSC#DGZ053:0690:JM>
      <{5><[5>however i hear the concern

  <WSC#DGZ053:0695:JM>
      don't have don't have a mechanism</[5>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0700:CS>
      <[1>oh i see right right</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0705:PK>
      <[2><O>clears throat</O></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0710:CS>
      <[3>yeah</[3></{3>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0715:PK>
      <[4><O>clears throat</O></[4></{4>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0720:CS>
      <[5>mm <O>clears throat</O>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0725:CS>
      i'm not happy about that

  <WSC#DGZ053:0730:CS>
      yeah</[5></{5> yeah yeah

  <WSC#DGZ053:0735:EW>
      well i <,,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0740:EW>
      now i i tell you what what i was said to me on my going on
      through the gallery traps

  <WSC#DGZ053:0745:EW>
      it's very widespread concern though

  <WSC#DGZ053:0750:EW>
      you know i mean i've <.>b</.> <.>y</.> i haven't got it in
      writing so you just have to take my word for it that it IS very
      widespread <,,> <{><[><O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0755:EW>
      and i <unclear>word</unclear></[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0760:JM>
      <[>but do you have an answer</[></{> <,,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0765:EW>
      <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0770:??>
      <O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0775:EW>
      um i'm <.>no</.> i'm not sure

  <WSC#DGZ053:0780:EW>
      um i think that you could tinker with the fellowship um
      programme er <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0785:JM>
      i've got no <{><[>support</[> for that from either colleagues

  <WSC#DGZ053:0790:JM>
      except for yourself

  <WSC#DGZ053:0795:JM>
      or panel members <,,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0800:X2>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0805:EW>
      no support from panel <{><[>members</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0810:JM>
      <[>for tinkering <&>9:00</&> <&>pronounced tinking</&></[></{>
      with the fellowship

  <WSC#DGZ053:0815:JM>
      no <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0820:EW>
      no yeah <latch> no

  <WSC#DGZ053:0825:JM>
      i mean i i

  <WSC#DGZ053:0830:JM>
      that was my that was my <{1><[1><.>s</.></[1> that was my
      thinking as <{2><[2>well</[2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0835:JM>
      that we could look at making that contestable

  <WSC#DGZ053:0840:JM>
      particularly for emergent artists <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0845:PK>
      <[1>yeah</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0850:PK>
      <[2>yeah</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0855:X2>
      yeah <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0860:JM>
      one of the issues patrick is the emergent artists BIT

  <WSC#DGZ053:0865:JM>
      <{1><[1>you know how do people <{2><[2>who</[1> er</[2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0870:PK>
      <[1>yes yes er <unclear>word</unclear></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0875:EW>
      <[2>it's it's a key</[2></{2> <{><[>issue</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0880:PK>
      <[>how do you break</[></{> in

  <WSC#DGZ053:0885:PK>
      <{><[>how do you break into <.>the</.></[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0890:JM>
      <[>yeah and i and i've</[></{> said that in my in my <{1><[1>issues</[1>
      for the <?>commission</?> i've said that

  <WSC#DGZ053:0895:JM>
      that <{2><[2>there</[2> is a concern that <,> EMERGENT people
      won't get a look in the <{3><[3>door either</[3> from council OR
      from commissioners because some commissioners don't know new
      work

  <WSC#DGZ053:0900:JM>
      <{4><[4>unless they</[4> do they're going to have to do a a wide
      look job to actually <{5><[5>come up</[5> with um <{6><[6>with
      the stuff</[6>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0905:JM>
      um and i did suggest in the letter to barraud that we COULD tag
      <,> one fellowship <,,> or split one fellowship for two quote
      unquote emergent artists

  <WSC#DGZ053:0910:PK>
      <[1>yeah</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0915:PK>
      <[2>yeah</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0920:PK>
      <[3>mm mm</[3></{3>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0925:PK>
      <[4>yeah right</[4></{4>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0930:PK>
      <[5><O>clears throat</O></[5></{5>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0935:X2>
      <[6>yeah yeah</[6></{6>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0940:X2>
      that's what we do in writing and it <{><[>does</[> sort of work

  <WSC#DGZ053:0945:JM>
      <[>yeah</[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0950:JM>
      now <{><[>that's</[> now that's that's a mechanism

  <WSC#DGZ053:0955:X2>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0960:PK>
      yes <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0965:JM>
      which wouldn't constitute a structural change <{1><[1>in the
      programme OR</[1> necessarily need to go to council <,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0970:JM>
      but then patrick that raises for me tagging <,,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:0975:JM>
      there are <.>issue</.> <&>pronounced <.>ussue</.></&> other
      issues of tagging

  <WSC#DGZ053:0980:JM>
      one is related to craft

  <WSC#DGZ053:0985:JM>
      one's related to maori

  <WSC#DGZ053:0990:JM>
      i mean there was one maori application in that last thirty
      applications

  <WSC#DGZ053:0995:JM>
      and one pacific island <,,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1000:JM>
      um and you know we got letters from pacific island artists
      criticising that <,> <{2><[2>there were no fellowships

  <WSC#DGZ053:1005:JM>
      and we wrote back and said</[2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1010:JM>
      you know cam chaired the panel and there was a maori member on
      and there was one application

  <WSC#DGZ053:1015:JM>
      and one from a part samoan person

  <WSC#DGZ053:1020:JM>
      and the panel were not happy with the with the <?>calibre</?> um

  <WSC#DGZ053:1025:JM>
      but the emergent one seems to me to be probably the greater
      concern <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1030:PK>
      <[1>no <,> no <unclear>word</unclear></[1></{1> <&>10:00</&>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1035:EW>
      <[2>they weren't <O>clears throat</O></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1040:X2>
      yeah

  <WSC#DGZ053:1045:X2>
      it's that's what <{><[>it is</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1050:JM>
      <[>and</[></{> <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1055:PK>
      er <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1060:JM>
      council could signal their interest in encouraging investment in
      that area BY earmarking a fellowship

  <WSC#DGZ053:1065:JM>
      however pamela would argue as a panel member that to give
      someone THAT length of support when they are so emergent is also
      the wrong signal <{><[>possibly too</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1070:CS>
      <[>well i think it's absolutely</[></{> the wrong <{><[>signal
      mm</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1075:JM>
      <[>because we're talking about a</[></{> twenty four thousand
      dollars

  <WSC#DGZ053:1080:JM>
      <{1><[1>we're talking about <,></[1> two thousand a month on a
      <{2><[2>on a <.>s</.></[2> on a salary for a year <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1085:CS>
      <[1>mm mm</[1></{1> <&>11:00</&>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1090:PK>
      <[2>yeah yeah</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1095:CS>
      they're quite often talking about quite small amounts to do a
      project <{1><[1>er</[1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1100:CS>
      that's what i'm talking <{2><[2>about</[2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1105:CS>
      and so they're flexible amounts rather than <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1110:PK>
      <[1>yes</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1115:JM>
      <[2>mm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1120:JM>
      yeah <{><[>no</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1125:CS>
      <[>so</[></{> it isn't the solution at all

  <WSC#DGZ053:1130:JM>
      mm

  <WSC#DGZ053:1135:JM>
      no i don't think it's the <{1><[1>solution jane</[1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1140:JM>
      i think it actually raises another set of problems <{2><[2>of</[2>
      you know how much do you give to someone at <{3><[3>what</[3>
      stage um

  <WSC#DGZ053:1145:JM>
      you <{4><[4>could</[4> split it

  <WSC#DGZ053:1150:CS>
      <[1>mm mm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1155:CS>
      <[2>mm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1160:CS>
      <[3>mm</[3></{3>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1165:PK>
      <[4><?>mm</?></[4></{4>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1170:EW>
      well i i was i was thinking jim that that that mayBE <.>y</.>
      you can i don't know you could do it year about

  <WSC#DGZ053:1175:EW>
      you could say no fellowships this year <.>a</.>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1180:EW>
      and it will go to um <.>g</.> <O>voc</O> individuals <,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1185:EW>
      and do it year about until until there is more money in this in
      this er <,> bag

  <WSC#DGZ053:1190:JM>
      if that were the case what i'd prefer to do is just let the
      fellowship run for two or three years and then cut it

  <WSC#DGZ053:1195:JM>
      i mean one of the arguments with the fellowship was in fact that
      over a period of years you'd build up a significant body of work
      by supporting five people a year to do their work

  <WSC#DGZ053:1200:JM>
      and already that's showing we're in the second <{1><[1>year</[1>
      now

  <WSC#DGZ053:1205:JM>
      and it's very clear to me that people like bob hawkins have
      produced a superb body of work over a year

  <WSC#DGZ053:1210:JM>
      and william dawkins used it incredibly well to build a base <{2><[2>for</[2>
      for for the practice

  <WSC#DGZ053:1215:JM>
      <{3><[3>and you could actually get it</[3>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1220:EW>
      <[1>mm</[1></{1> <&>12:00</&>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1225:EW>
      <[2>mm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1230:EW>
      <[3>but five years is a long time</[3></{3> jim

  <WSC#DGZ053:1235:EW>
      and what about those other people who come up

  <WSC#DGZ053:1240:EW>
      you're going to have <laughs>nobody in that bracket then</laughs>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1245:EW>
      <{><[>because you <.>could</.></[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1250:JM>
      <[>but there's no time for it</[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1255:JM>
      i mean council could make a decision to

  <WSC#DGZ053:1260:JM>
      or staff could <.>re</.> recommend that council got out of it in
      two years or three years

  <WSC#DGZ053:1265:JM>
      on the basis that it had done its job

  <WSC#DGZ053:1270:JM>
      you know it had enabled a significant group of people to develop
      a significant body of work

  <WSC#DGZ053:1275:JM>
      and then it could could break it

  <WSC#DGZ053:1280:JM>
      i mean i would NOT like to see that scheme continued ANYWAY <{><[>for
      a year at a time</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1285:X2>
      <[>why not <.>w</.> wouldn't</[></{> your emergent artists be
      coming up to that level <{><[>eventually</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1290:CS>
      <[>yeah</[></{> well that's what <{><[>i'd have <.>anticipate</.></[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1295:JM>
      <[>well possibly possibly</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1300:X2>
      <[>i just <.>don't</.> <unclear>word</unclear></[></{> <{><[><unclear>word</unclear>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1305:X2>
      that's what we find with writers <?>that they</?></[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1310:EW>
      <[>well i of course i would never <?>come back</?> in a million
      YEARS</[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1315:EW>
      <{><[>i mean</[> that's one of the few bloody REWARDS for the
      independence you know

  <WSC#DGZ053:1320:CS>
      <[>exactly</[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1325:JM>
      mm yeah <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1330:CS>
      it's it's LIKE i <{><[>mean</[> <,,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1335:CS>
      it's like a long leave you know

  <WSC#DGZ053:1340:CS>
      and actually HAVE to do it for people

  <WSC#DGZ053:1345:JM>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1350:JM>
      yeah <{><[>yeah</[>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1355:CS>
      <[>you just</[></{> have to do it

  <WSC#DGZ053:1360:CS>
      <{1><[1>i</[1> mean the economy's not going to <{2><[2>support</[2>
      these people

  <WSC#DGZ053:1365:JM>
      <[1>yeah</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1370:JM>
      <[2>yeah</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1375:JM>
      yeah <{><[>but in the end

  <WSC#DGZ053:1380:JM>
      but in the end</[> it's the same issue you know

  <WSC#DGZ053:1385:JM>
      i <.>e</.> council can either put a little bit in a whole range
      of things

  <WSC#DGZ053:1390:JM>
      dabble in a whole range of things and <&>13:00</&> satisfy a
      whole number of people in a sort of a mediocre way

  <WSC#DGZ053:1395:JM>
      OR it can make some hard decisions and say sorry this is where
      the priority is and this is where the investment is

  <WSC#DGZ053:1400:JM>
      um which is why i come back and say my INSTINCT is actually not
      to fiddle around with them AGAIN but to let them run for another
      year

  <WSC#DGZ053:1405:CS>
      <[>in the next ten years</[></{>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1410:CS>
      i mean it <.>just</.> if there were EVEN FIFTY thousand <{1><[1>there
      for one meeting a year</[1> or two small meetings a year where
      where there was some project money <,,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1415:CS>
      i guess it's not worth it

  <WSC#DGZ053:1420:CS>
      i mean <{2><[2><.>i</.></[2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1425:PK>
      <[1><drawls><softly>ah</softly> yeah</drawls></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1430:PK>
      <[2>a</[2></{2> year is a yeah yes a year is a very short time
      for any programme just to be running

  <WSC#DGZ053:1435:PK>
      <{1><[1>i mean i i don't think we'll carry out a

  <WSC#DGZ053:1440:PK>
      yeah i don't we'll carry out a</[1> proper evaluation of the
      objectives of the scheme in one year

  <WSC#DGZ053:1445:PK>
      so i certainly agree with that <,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1450:PK>
      <{2><[2><,> er</[2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1455:CS>
      <[1>mm well what's happened though <O>clears throat</O></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1460:X2>
      <[2>i mean</[2></{2> my international schemes had a real bumpy
      ride getting started you know

  <WSC#DGZ053:1465:X2>
      that <{1><[1>it it</[1> does take <{2><[2>a lot longer</[2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1470:PK>
      <[1><quietly>yeah</quietly></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1475:PK>
      <[2>yeah yeah</[2></{2> <latch>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1480:JM>
      i mean it is true

  <WSC#DGZ053:1485:JM>
      i don't you know i mean i <.>r</.>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1490:JM>
      i think we've got to be be fair about this too i mean

  <WSC#DGZ053:1495:JM>
      ANY shift will cause some <&>14:00</&> concern and some pain for
      some for some period of <{1><[1>time

  <WSC#DGZ053:1500:JM>
      and let's be you know</[1> <{2><[2>let's let's be sort of clear
      about that

  <WSC#DGZ053:1505:JM>
      and i think</[2> the issue for council is to PERHAPS <,> get a
      <{3><[3>a more <?>in depth</?></[3> assessment of how difficult
      it is and how necessary are <,>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1510:JM>
      how necessary is just a big bag of money for <,> direct access
      by artists to do certain things <&>14:21</&>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1515:EW>
      <[1>oh that's given mm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1520:PK>
      <[2>yeah yeah yeah <unclear>word</unclear></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DGZ053:1525:PK>
      <[3><O>voc</O></[3></{3>
</I>
