<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>4:00</&>
  

  <WSC#DPC320:0005:BG>
      cos the other thing it's not like you not it's not <.>di</.>
      being disparaging

  <WSC#DPC320:0010:BG>
      women i do think <,> when they have to get up and do a
      <indig=Maori><.>whai</.></indig=Maori> a well i <.>sup</.> i
      call it a <indig=Maori>whaikorero</indig=Maori> <,> or at least
      just a <{><[><indig=Maori>korero</indig=Maori></[>

  <WSC#DPC320:0015:AE>
      <[><indig=Maori>korero</indig=Maori></[></{> mhm

  <WSC#DPC320:0020:BG>
      no when i've had to i DO talk about the <indig=Maori>kaupapa</indig=Maori>
      of <.>th</.> <indig=Maori><.>kau</.> kaupapa</indig=Maori> of
      the day

  <WSC#DPC320:0025:BG>
      i also DO <indig=Maori>mihi</indig=Maori> to the <indig=Maori>atua</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:0030:AE>
      mhm <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0035:BG>
      but said

  <WSC#DPC320:0040:BG>
      like the other thing is <,> i don't do it on a <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:0045:BG>
      i've never been <,> on a <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori> on a
      <indig=Maori>marae atea</indig=Maori> and <{1><[1>done</[1>
      anything

  <WSC#DPC320:0050:BG>
      so when i've had to do it i did it in a house or <,> usually in
      a house somebody's house <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0055:BG>
      and i've <indig=Maori>mihied</indig=Maori> not to the <.>m</.>
      the house or anything <{2><[2>but</[2> to <,> the <indig=Maori>tipuna</indig=Maori>
      that these people bring with them <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0060:AE>
      <[1>mhm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0065:AE>
      <[2>mhm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0070:AE>
      mhm

  <WSC#DPC320:0075:BG>
      and i think women recognise all that

  <WSC#DPC320:0080:BG>
      they think it's important

  <WSC#DPC320:0085:BG>
      it's just that <,> they've never stood on the <indig=Maori>marae
      atea</indig=Maori> and done it <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0090:BG>
      and very few women do <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0095:BG>
      and even when they do <{><[><O>voc</O></[> it's a matter of
      who's taught them how to do it

  <WSC#DPC320:0100:AE>
      <[>mhm</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:0105:AE>
      <{><[>mm</[>

  <WSC#DPC320:0110:BG>
      <[>cos</[></{> who the teacher is and whoever <.>th</.> whatever
      they think is important is what you're going to learn
      <&>5:00</&> <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0115:AE>
      mm <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0120:AE>
      but it's <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0125:AE>
      if if you try and relate that to now to how people are learning
      <,> we're learning <,> how to speak like maori men or

  <WSC#DPC320:0130:AE>
      we're not LEARNING but we <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0135:BG>
      well that's all all <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0140:BG>
      if you look at university and you look at who the teachers are
      <,> like the <indig=Maori>hohonu</indig=Maori> ones <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0145:AE>
      mhm

  <WSC#DPC320:0150:BG>
      are men <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0155:BG>
      and they've <.>alw</.>

  <WSC#DPC320:0160:BG>
      i mean at vic they've split <,> classes up i've heard into <,>
      bits where you learn <indig=Maori>whaikorero</indig=Maori> <,>
      and they only have men <,> and then there's <indig=Maori>waiata</indig=Maori>
      and there's heaps of women but men can learn that too and to me
      it's almost it's not fair

  <WSC#DPC320:0165:BG>
      i don't see WHY we can't learn <indig=Maori>whaikorero</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:0170:BG>
      i don't i KNOW all the arguments why we don't DO it <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0175:AE>
      mhm

  <WSC#DPC320:0180:BG>
      and i don't agree with them <O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DPC320:0185:BG>
      but why can't we learn it

  <WSC#DPC320:0190:BG>
      nobody said <,> we couldn't learn it

  <WSC#DPC320:0195:BG>
      i mean even if it's just to understand what other people are
      saying

  <WSC#DPC320:0200:AE>
      maybe it's to do with the thing of <&>6:00</&> knowledge though

  <WSC#DPC320:0205:AE>
      knowledge ISN'T for everyone

  <WSC#DPC320:0210:BG>
      oh it is in a university

  <WSC#DPC320:0215:BG>
      i <{1><[1>mean that</[1> if <,> <{2><[2>when you</[2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0220:AE>
      <[1>mhm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0225:AE>
      <[2>oh i see</[2></{2> in a university <&>pronounced nuniversity</&>
      <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0230:BG>
      yeah

  <WSC#DPC320:0235:AE>
      but maybe <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0240:BG>
      what are they teaching them really

  <WSC#DPC320:0245:BG>
      i mean if i sat there and listened to them teaching
      <indig=Maori>whaikorero</indig=Maori> at university i could
      understand it <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0250:BG>
      and it's not that deep that <{><[>i</[> couldn't do it

  <WSC#DPC320:0255:AE>
      <[>mm</[></{> <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0260:AE>
      <?>mm</?> it's all to do with <,> because there's of the context
      of a western university <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0265:AE>
      maybe they're too scared to do <,> to mix the two cos the <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0270:AE>
      well <O>voc</O> you know when you did your thesis on <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0275:AE>
      you did it on <indig=Maori>tino <{><[>rangatiratanga</[></indig=Maori>
      eh

  <WSC#DPC320:0280:BG>
      <[>mm</[></{> <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0285:AE>
      was your did you deal with knowledge and how knowledge is

  <WSC#DPC320:0290:BG>
      mhm <latch> not for everyone and knowledge <{1><[1>is</[1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0295:AE>
      mhm <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0300:AE>
      <{2><[2>well maybe</[2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0305:BG>
      <[1><indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0310:BG>
      <[2>all <.>kno</.> all</[2></{2> knowledge is <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori>
      but some's more some is more <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori> <{><[>than
      others</[> <O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DPC320:0315:BG>
      and i talked about <indig=Maori>whaikorero</indig=Maori> <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0320:AE>
      <[><indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori> than others</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:0325:AE>
      mhm and knowledge of that is that <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori>
      or <&>7:00</&> <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0330:AE>
      because <.>i</.> if if you have it that <,> the <{1><[1>knowledge</[1>
      well to do it then you really do it at a university because it's
      not it shouldn't be available to everyone <,> whereas at <{2><[2>universities
      all these things</[2> should be available <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0335:BG>
      <[1>that's <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0340:BG>
      <[2>yeah well this is true</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0345:BG>
      i think if you're gonna do it at a university <&>pronounced
      nuniversity</&> it should be available to everyone

  <WSC#DPC320:0350:BG>
      <{1><[1>if you don't</[1> want to do it <{2><[2>where it's
      available then don't do it at a university</[2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0355:AE>
      <[1>oh I see we've</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0360:AE>
      <[2>then don't <.>vailable</.> don't do it at ALL</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0365:AE>
      oh yeah <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0370:BG>
      do it on your <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori> <{><[>and then</[>
      select who's gonna learn it <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0375:AE>
      <[>so <.>y</.></[></{> so what you're saying is <,> those
      courses where they have men ONLY doing <indig=Maori>whaikorero</indig=Maori>
      they shouldn't do it if they're gonna do that because then the
      the <.>ele</.>

  <WSC#DPC320:0380:AE>
      <with high pitched voice>they're almost</with high pitched voice>
      like having half rules of maori and half rules of university and
      <.>m</.> trying to mix the two eh

  <WSC#DPC320:0385:BG>
      yeah and but i've <.>hear</.> but see <,> what they have taught
      up there i i could understand it

  <WSC#DPC320:0390:BG>
      i could learn it <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0395:BG>
      any woman could learn it

  <WSC#DPC320:0400:AE>
      mm

  <WSC#DPC320:0405:BG>
      so what's their reason

  <WSC#DPC320:0410:AE>
      it's <{><[>yeah</[>

  <WSC#DPC320:0415:BG>
      <[>and their whole</[></{> reason comes down to this
      <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori> thing <,> which doesn't really
      apply at a university

  <WSC#DPC320:0420:BG>
      but the other thing about <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori> is i
      think women have a different idea of what should be
      <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori> and what shouldn't

  <WSC#DPC320:0425:BG>
      <{1><[1>to me</[1> what's on the <indig=Maori>marae atea's</indig=Maori>
      <&>8:00</&> an open thing and um it's not <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:0430:BG>
      what i think is <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori> is personal
      knowledge <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0435:BG>
      and that's mainly cos of my work <,> doing counselling

  <WSC#DPC320:0440:BG>
      i <{2><[2>understand</[2> now that some things some knowledge
      yeah i would protect it and i wouldn't just give it to anyone

  <WSC#DPC320:0445:BG>
      <{3><[3>but it's</[3> got nothing to do it's got nothing to do
      with maori language <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0450:BG>
      it's um the kind of knowledge i wouldn't give to anyone even if
      i spoke english <O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DPC320:0455:AE>
      <[1>mhm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0460:AE>
      <[2>mhm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0465:AE>
      <[3>mhm</[3></{3>

  <WSC#DPC320:0470:AE>
      oh yeah

  <WSC#DPC320:0475:BG>
      you know?

  <WSC#DPC320:0480:BG>
      <.>i</.> it's got nothing to do with the <indig=Maori>reo</indig=Maori>
      <,,> <.>g</.> why i wouldn't give it

  <WSC#DPC320:0485:AE>
      is that like a universal <,> <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori>
      then <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0490:BG>
      well

  <WSC#DPC320:0495:AE>
      or <?>is there</?> a specifically maori <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0500:BG>
      to me the kind of knowledge that i think should be really
      <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori> is knowledge that is dangerous
      in other people's hands

  <WSC#DPC320:0505:AE>
      oh yeah <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0510:BG>
      and that's got nothing to do with the language i give it in
      although <,> explaining something in maori is sometimes a LOT
      easier than in <indig=Maori>pakeha</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:0515:BG>
      but <,> see i have personal knowledge about other people that i
      wouldn't give to someone else unless i really trusted them <{1><[1>and
      like personal</[1> knowledge about myself and my family <,> um
      <,> which <&>9:00</&> i wouldn't give away just like that <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0520:BG>
      and <{2><[2>other</[2> knowledge i think that's <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori>
      is knowledge that you have <,> worked really hard at acquiring

  <WSC#DPC320:0525:AE>
      <[1>oh yeah</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0530:AE>
      <[2>mm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0535:AE>
      oh yeah

  <WSC#DPC320:0540:BG>
      that um is a benefit to people <,> um and if used by <.>a</.>
      another group of people could be a could be dangerous

  <WSC#DPC320:0545:AE>
      oh yeah <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0550:BG>
      so <{1><[1>to me this</[1> whole thing about <indig=Maori>whaikorero</indig=Maori>
      being <{2><[2><indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori></[2> is crap <O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DPC320:0555:AE>
      <[1>so</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0560:AE>
      <[2><indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori></[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0565:AE>
      mm yeah when you think about it i mean i <.>r</.> the i reckon
      <&>pronounced as reckom</&> <,> that maori people only did
      things that were logical <,> that's the well not logical but
      they had a reason for doing anything

  <WSC#DPC320:0570:AE>
      so if they said <,> <O>voc</O> you don't do this <?>as it was
      even</?> maybe <,> health reasons you don't do this or just <,>
      for selfpreservation reasons you don't do

  <WSC#DPC320:0575:AE>
      they didn't ever <.>re</.> well I think they didn't ever really
      make any <,> laws or <indig=Maori>tapu</indig=Maori> or whatever
      <,> just for the sake of it just to benefit <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0580:BG>
      mhm

  <WSC#DPC320:0585:AE>
      at a superficial level like

  <WSC#DPC320:0590:BG>
      well it's things like

  <WSC#DPC320:0595:AE>
      is that right

  <WSC#DPC320:0600:AE>
      is that what you think <O>laughs</O> <&>10:00</&>

  <WSC#DPC320:0605:BG>
      everything everything we did

  <WSC#DPC320:0610:AE>
      mhm

  <WSC#DPC320:0615:BG>
      had a purpose <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0620:BG>
      you didn't just make these rules out of thin <laughs>air</laughs>
      <O>laughs</O> <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0625:AE>
      well then <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0630:BG>
      although i think when christianity came all these all these
      other rules came with it which we didn't understand

  <WSC#DPC320:0635:BG>
      <{1><[1>we <.>s</.> i</[1> personally <,> think that we used
      them er well at least men used them for convenience <,> <{2><[2>to
      cut</[2> other people out <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0640:AE>
      <[1>mhm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0645:AE>
      <[2>mm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0650:AE>
      that's what i was i was talking with denny and that how <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0655:AE>
      in this um project i'm doing i'm trying to see whether <,> when
      <,> maori people <.>m</.> like the people those students that i
      take when they were speaking what rules they were reflecting in
      their speech <&>pronounced as speet</&> speech were they <,>
      maori cultural rules like within themselves or were there
      INTERcultural rules <.>w</.> like pakeha rules coming in and um
      <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0660:AE>
      i had to do this integration network thing but anyway it's <{><[><O>sniffs</O></[>
      <O>laughs</O> <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0665:BG>
      <[><O>laughs</O></[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:0670:BG>
      i think if you took away all the christianity

  <WSC#DPC320:0675:AE>
      mhm <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0680:BG>
      and saw what was left there'd be very <&>11:00</&> little that
      was really really <,> maori <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0685:AE>
      maori

  <WSC#DPC320:0690:BG>
      um <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0695:BG>
      because i think that before christianity came there were no
      divisions <,> as far as er rights to knowledge or <,> at least
      as far as status is concerned <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0700:AE>
      mhm

  <WSC#DPC320:0705:BG>
      i <.>r</.> i really truly believe that um <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0710:AE>
      have you got <{><[>evidence of WHY</[> you believe that

  <WSC#DPC320:0715:BG>
      <[>there were <.>divi</.></[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:0720:BG>
      there were divisions as far as what roles there might have been
      <{1><[1>BUT</[1> i don't i i still go further back and i would
      say that <,> um just for practicality's sake <{2><[2>if you're</[2>
      if you're a tribal society <,> who depends on the environment
      <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0725:AE>
      <[1>yeah</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0730:AE>
      <[2>mhm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0735:AE>
      mhm <latch> and who depends on on human power or <.>o</.> in
      reproduction

  <WSC#DPC320:0740:AE>
      yeah

  <WSC#DPC320:0745:BG>
      then what do you think <,> would <.>wha</.> what purpose would
      it serve to cut out half the population i e women <,> and say
      this is your role and you're not allowed to do fighting you're
      not allowed to do all these other things <{><[>that men</[> do
      <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0750:BG>
      i mean to me that's stupid <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0755:BG>
      if you're gonna survive as a group you don't cut out half the
      group <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0760:AE>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:0765:AE>
      mm <latch> and say <,> you just <&>12:00</&> stay here and you
      do the <{><[>gardening <O>laughs</O></[>

  <WSC#DPC320:0770:AE>
      <[>but what about</[></{> um other like other tribal societies
      that do survive <,> you know just on their population say like
      <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0775:BG>
      without christianity? <latch> without christianity like <O>voc</O>
      i don't know the ones in the amazon or something

  <WSC#DPC320:0780:AE>
      how how are their men and women's <{><[>relations</[>

  <WSC#DPC320:0785:BG>
      <[>well</[></{> when i did my thesis <.>the</.>

  <WSC#DPC320:0790:BG>
      see there's no place in the world that hasn't been touched

  <WSC#DPC320:0795:AE>
      <&>sighs</&>

  <WSC#DPC320:0800:BG>
      by christians and when <.>the</.> <{1><[1>or at least by</[1>
      white people and when they are <,> obviously white people are
      writing down what they <,> <{2><[2>what they believe</[2> they
      do and what what they believe they think <,> about what they do

  <WSC#DPC320:0805:BG>
      <{3><[3>so</[3> when i was doing my thesis the only stuff i
      could find i tried to find only written by native people <{4><[4>from</[4>
      you know indigenous people from that particular country and i
      and when i couldn't find that i found white people who wrote
      about <,> the way they've been colonised <,> the way these
      indigenous people have <?>been</?> colonised

  <WSC#DPC320:0810:BG>
      the stuff that i found where indigenous people wrote about what
      it was like to be <,> say for instance um inuit <{5><[5>or</[5>
      um native american <,> before white people came suggested to me
      that women <,> um <&>13:00</&> were just as important in <{6><[6>every
      area</[6> of life as men

  <WSC#DPC320:0815:AE>
      <[1>mm <O>laughs</O></[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:0820:AE>
      <[2>what they think</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:0825:AE>
      <[3>mm</[3></{3>

  <WSC#DPC320:0830:AE>
      <[4>mhm</[4></{4>

  <WSC#DPC320:0835:AE>
      <[5>mhm</[5></{5>

  <WSC#DPC320:0840:AE>
      <[6>as yeah</[6></{6>

  <WSC#DPC320:0845:AE>
      <quietly>oh <{><[>you reckon</quietly></[>

  <WSC#DPC320:0850:BG>
      <[>and then</[></{> they were <,> colonised by spanish and or at
      least in guatemala they were colonised by spanish <{><[>and</[>
      <,> they were really staunch christians <O>laughs</O> <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0855:AE>
      <[>mhm</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:0860:AE>
      <drawls>mm</drawls> <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0865:BG>
      destroyed everything <,> and um <,> what survived is what er
      white <.>r</.> historians have written down

  <WSC#DPC320:0870:BG>
      and the only white historian that i've ever seen who said that
      um basically <,> everything you've ever read is written by white
      people and you have to suspect it <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0875:AE>
      mhm

  <WSC#DPC320:0880:AE>
      who's that

  <WSC#DPC320:0885:BG>
      oh ronald wright

  <WSC#DPC320:0890:AE>
      ronald wright <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0895:BG>
      mm <{><[>and he</[> he basically just said we should get out of
      the way now and let indigenous people write their own stories
      <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0900:BG>
      and i i'd go further and say i reckon everyone should get out of
      the way and let indigenous women write their stories first <O>both
      laugh</O>

  <WSC#DPC320:0905:AE>
      <[><?>god</?></[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:0910:AE>
      mm actually we did this um <,> in one of my <&>14:00</&> other
      linguistic things <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0915:AE>
      and they were talking about <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0920:AE>
      oh nah nah change subject <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0925:AE>
      <quietly>change subject</quietly>

  <WSC#DPC320:0930:AE>
      it's funny that <.>the</.> there's <O>voc</O> <,> like in that
      tribal ethnographies that i'm doing now with um tamati

  <WSC#DPC320:0935:AE>
      <.>we</.> <O>voc</O> just going over that terangi kaheke <,>
      stuff and that and how <,> all his all his manuscripts and that
      have only ever been <,> um <,> <?>what's the word</?> analysed
      by like <,> jennifer curnow and agatha thornton and what's
      <with high pitched voice>that other guy's name i just <?>remembered</?>

  <WSC#DPC320:0940:AE>
      is it finlay or binney</with high pitched voice>

  <WSC#DPC320:0945:BG>
      some people at varsity lots of people actually lots of lecturers
      <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0950:BG>
      what used to piss me off is lecturers that OTHER lecturers <,>
      didn't give enough weight to their own people <{><[>and what</[>
      they had to say <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0955:BG>
      but that's because part of the job is to defend your work you
      have to have another academic who's written about the topic who
      says what you say <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:0960:BG>
      and so if you can't find an academic who's written about this
      particular <indig=Maori>kaupapa</indig=Maori> then it's like
      it's just your opinion and it's not important

  <WSC#DPC320:0965:AE>
      <[>mhm</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:0970:AE>
      mm <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:0975:BG>
      so they get a lot of other white people

  <WSC#DPC320:0980:BG>
      i mean cos most people academics are white <{><[><O>laughs</O></[>
      and in new zealand until recently most people writing about
      maori have been white

  <WSC#DPC320:0985:AE>
      <[><O>sniffs</O></[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:0990:AE>
      mm

  <WSC#DPC320:0995:BG>
      and i find that really sad

  <WSC#DPC320:1000:BG>
      i think it's really sad

  <WSC#DPC320:1005:AE>
      it's really <,> mm <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1010:BG>
      so if <.>we're</.> i mean to me teaching the <indig=Maori>reo</indig=Maori>
      up there is no different to teaching any other topic about <.>m</.>
      maori people eh

  <WSC#DPC320:1015:BG>
      people think say like the <indig=Maori>reo</indig=Maori> is
      somehow <,> more <{><[>important and it's</[> not

  <WSC#DPC320:1020:AE>
      <[>more important</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:1025:AE>
      it's it's funny that cos <.>y</.> i remember having a argument
      with johnny about this

  <WSC#DPC320:1030:AE>
      and he said oh no <,> <indig=Maori>tikanga's</indig=Maori> more
      important than the <indig=Maori>reo</indig=Maori> and i was
      going no but you need the <indig=Maori>reo</indig=Maori> blah
      blah blah and he goes nah <,> <indig=Maori>tikanga</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:1035:AE>
      he goes you can lose the <.>l</.> the <indig=Maori>reo</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:1040:AE>
      i said what about <indig=Maori>whaikorero</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:1045:AE>
      he goes <.>tha</.> that's just <indig=Maori>whaikorero</indig=Maori>
      is just <,> another <,> way of <&>16:00</&> representing culture
      maori culture but <.>i</.> it's the <indig=Maori>tikanga</indig=Maori>
      you follow

  <WSC#DPC320:1050:AE>
      it's the <indig=Maori>manakitanga</indig=Maori> and they were
      and all this and all <{><[>this</[>

  <WSC#DPC320:1055:AE>
      and every now and then i kept thinking mm maybe he's right
      <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1060:BG>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:1065:BG>
      i don't think either one's more <{1><[1>important</[1>

  <WSC#DPC320:1070:BG>
      i think they're all important

  <WSC#DPC320:1075:BG>
      the only thing

  <WSC#DPC320:1080:BG>
      i was <laughs>saying</laughs> to henare too that you notice <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:1085:BG>
      now he he rabbits on about the <indig=Maori>reo</indig=Maori>
      cos <{2><[2>that's his job</[2> and piripi rabbits on about the
      <indig=Maori>reo</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:1090:BG>
      and he was on the radio not long ago saying you know every other
      culture in the WORLD has a <indig=Maori>tikanga</indig=Maori>
      which is true

  <WSC#DPC320:1095:AE>
      <[1>mm?</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:1100:AE>
      <[2>mhm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:1105:AE>
      mhm <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1110:BG>
      everyone has a way of burying their dead

  <WSC#DPC320:1115:BG>
      everyone has a way of mourning

  <WSC#DPC320:1120:BG>
      everyone has a way of welcoming people

  <WSC#DPC320:1125:BG>
      everyone has a way of looking after <{><[>people</[>

  <WSC#DPC320:1130:BG>
      <with deep voice>but nobody else has maori</with deep voice> <O>both
      laugh</O>

  <WSC#DPC320:1135:AE>
      <[>mhm</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:1140:BG>
      which is true <{><[><O>laughs</O></[>

  <WSC#DPC320:1145:AE>
      <[>yeah that's</[></{> true <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1150:BG>
      but so what

  <WSC#DPC320:1155:BG>
      so what's his point <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1160:AE>
      mm <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1165:BG>
      that if the maori if maori language dies so does everything else
      and i <.>j</.>

  <WSC#DPC320:1170:BG>
      i said to hemi that's <{><[>not necessarily</[> true <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1175:AE>
      <[>that's not right</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:1180:AE>
      mm

  <WSC#DPC320:1185:BG>
      i would always know the right way to <,> say <&>17:00</&>
      goodbye to my dead without knowing maori <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1190:AE>
      mhm

  <WSC#DPC320:1195:BG>
      i'd rather say it in maori and i'd but other things survive like
      <indig=Maori>wairua</indig=Maori> survives without maori

  <WSC#DPC320:1200:AE>
      well that's a really good that's a really good point because
      when he says that he just infers that if you do lose maori then
      you lose everything <{><[>when you don't</[>

  <WSC#DPC320:1205:BG>
      <[>but i</[></{> think <,> if we lost maori probably eventually
      in time <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1210:AE>
      mhm <latch> we would lose the way of perceiving <,> things <{><[>in</[>
      a maori way

  <WSC#DPC320:1215:AE>
      <[>mhm</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:1220:AE>
      mm <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1225:BG>
      like i don't know another <indig=Maori>pakeha</indig=Maori> word
      for <indig=Maori>wairua</indig=Maori> <,> because to me
      <indig=Maori>wairua</indig=Maori> means lots and lots <{1><[1>of
      things</[1>

  <WSC#DPC320:1230:BG>
      it's not just spirituality <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:1235:BG>
      so <,> for instance you know when you meet someone <{2><[2>and</[2>
      you get on really well with them

  <WSC#DPC320:1240:BG>
      you've only just met them and you think shit this person's neat
      <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1245:AE>
      <[1>lots of things</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:1250:AE>
      <[2>mhm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:1255:AE>
      mm <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1260:BG>
      to me that's your <indig=Maori>wairua</indig=Maori> reaching out

  <WSC#DPC320:1265:AE>
      oh yeah <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1270:BG>
      what would a pakeha say that <laughs>is</laughs>

  <WSC#DPC320:1275:BG>
      i don't know <{><[><O>laughs</O></[>

  <WSC#DPC320:1280:AE>
      <[>mm</[></{> <&>17:55</&> <&>one minute forty five second
      section not transcribed</&> <&>19:40</&>

  <WSC#DPC320:1285:BG>
      see you get a lot of maori men today won't cry <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:1290:BG>
      you know <.>an</.> and see when i was thinking about my
      <indig=Maori><?>koroua</?></indig=Maori> at home

  <WSC#DPC320:1295:AE>
      mhm

  <WSC#DPC320:1300:BG>
      and he was crying and i thought shit that's really neat

  <WSC#DPC320:1305:BG>
      i <{1><[1>mean</[1> it's really sad <laughs>but it's</laughs>
      really nice

  <WSC#DPC320:1310:BG>
      here is this really old <indig=Maori><?>koroua</?></indig=Maori>
      crying

  <WSC#DPC320:1315:BG>
      um and okay he's he doesn't use his maori language much now but
      he still knows <{2><[2>that</[2> it is it is <.>re</.> it's okay
      <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1320:AE>
      <[1>mm</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:1325:AE>
      <[2>mm</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:1330:AE>
      okay

  <WSC#DPC320:1335:BG>
      you get a lot of maori men today they just <&>20:00</&> stop it

  <WSC#DPC320:1340:BG>
      they won't cry

  <WSC#DPC320:1345:BG>
      the women no sweat <{1><[1><O>laughs</O>

  <WSC#DPC320:1350:BG>
      and</[1> <,> even things like

  <WSC#DPC320:1355:BG>
      <.>one</.> one thing i really brought home to me is when i met
      with women at <indig=Maori>awhina wahine</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:1360:BG>
      <{2><[2>they're</[2> all maori <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:1365:BG>
      and you know how people say to do things in a maori way whatever
      that means

  <WSC#DPC320:1370:BG>
      to me the whole idea of <indig=Maori>aroha</indig=Maori> was
      brought home really strongly when we had to confront an abuser
      <{3><[3>a woman a maori</[3> woman

  <WSC#DPC320:1375:BG>
      and we did it with a lot of <indig=Maori>aroha</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:1380:BG>
      a lot people thought would've thought that that was really
      stupid that we should have just done them

  <WSC#DPC320:1385:BG>
      we <.>re</.> really should've gone for them <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:1390:BG>
      but we didn't and i reckon the reason we didn't cos we
      understand what <indig=Maori>aroha</indig=Maori> <.>re</.>
      really is and we understand what a <indig=Maori>tikanga maori</indig=Maori>
      really is <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1395:AE>
      <[1>no sweat

  <WSC#DPC320:1400:AE>
      gaw</[1></{1>

  <WSC#DPC320:1405:AE>
      <[2>uh huh</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:1410:AE>
      <[3>mhm mhm</[3></{3>

  <WSC#DPC320:1415:AE>
      mhm <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1420:BG>
      and a <indig=Maori>tikanga maori</indig=Maori> is about
      <indig=Maori>mana</indig=Maori> and

  <WSC#DPC320:1425:BG>
      i understand what <indig=Maori>mana</indig=Maori> is without
      actually being a fluent speaker of maori <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:1430:BG>
      and how come i understand that and i obviously i understand it
      because i understand about <indig=Maori>aroha</indig=Maori>

  <WSC#DPC320:1435:BG>
      and i might only have a few words but at least i know what it
      means <&>21:00</&>

  <WSC#DPC320:1440:BG>
      <{1><[1>but</[1> as a man in a different <.>sit</.> in that
      situation <{2><[2>might have</[2> really gone for that person
      and really shat on them

  <WSC#DPC320:1445:BG>
      and we didn't we told them basically in no uncertain terms what
      we thought of her <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1450:AE>
      <[1>mm</[1></{1> <&>21:00</&>

  <WSC#DPC320:1455:AE>
      <[2>uh huh</[2></{2>

  <WSC#DPC320:1460:AE>
      mhm <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1465:BG>
      and what she did <,>

  <WSC#DPC320:1470:BG>
      but we did it with <indig=Maori>aroha</indig=Maori> and her
      <indig=Maori>mana</indig=Maori> was intact

  <WSC#DPC320:1475:BG>
      and to me that's one of the most important things you have to
      learn <,,> you know

  <WSC#DPC320:1480:AE>
      her <indig=Maori>mana</indig=Maori> was intact

  <WSC#DPC320:1485:BG>
      she walked away with her <indig=Maori>mana</indig=Maori> intact
      and we walked away with ours intact and that's <?>about</?>
      <latch>

  <WSC#DPC320:1490:AE>
      gaw that's <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:1495:AE>
      you <?>knew and you <.>n</.> <.>n</.> <O>voc</O> oh</?> mm

  <WSC#DPC320:1500:BG>
      it's i'm not saying we let her off we <.>did</.>

  <WSC#DPC320:1505:BG>
      i mean i certainly told her that i didn't condone what she <{><[>did</[>
      and i thought it was disgusting so on and so forth

  <WSC#DPC320:1510:BG>
      but i let her also know that we care about her cos she's a maori
      woman and you know this is what she has to do

  <WSC#DPC320:1515:AE>
      <[>mhm</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:1520:AE>
      mm

  <WSC#DPC320:1525:BG>
      to make amends

  <WSC#DPC320:1530:BG>
      but i don't know if men learn that when they learn maori

  <WSC#DPC320:1535:BG>
      i don't think they do

  <WSC#DPC320:1540:AE>
      that's a really good point <,,>

  <WSC#DPC320:1545:AE>
      because if you hadn't if she had've left without her
      <&>22:00</&> <indig=Maori>mana</indig=Maori> intact then what
      would she how would she have improved and <{><[>you know</[>

  <WSC#DPC320:1550:BG>
      <[>if she</[></{> hadn't left without her <indig=Maori>mana</indig=Maori>
      intact we would've been just as bad as <{><[>she</[> was

  <WSC#DPC320:1555:AE>
      <[>MM</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:1560:AE>
      i mean she would there's no way that she would've improved and
      gotten over <.>a</.> these bad things because she's got nothing
      there to <.>s</.> to build on

  <WSC#DPC320:1565:BG>
      she'd also have no reason to cos she'd look at us and think oh
      <{><[>you're</[> just as bad as me

  <WSC#DPC320:1570:AE>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:1575:AE>
      mm

  <WSC#DPC320:1580:BG>
      and her she'd still be harbouring feelings

  <WSC#DPC320:1585:AE>
      mm

  <WSC#DPC320:1590:BG>
      bad ones about us and have no reason to want to change

  <WSC#DPC320:1595:BG>
      but do men i don't think men understand that

  <WSC#DPC320:1600:AE>
      but is that maori men now or men in general

  <WSC#DPC320:1605:BG>
      oh men in general but maori men who say

  <WSC#DPC320:1610:BG>
      what pisses me off are maori men who tell me <{><[>what
      <indig=Maori>tikanga</indig=Maori></[> maori is and then turn
      around and beat up their wife

  <WSC#DPC320:1615:AE>
      <[>uh huh</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:1620:AE>
      mm

  <WSC#DPC320:1625:BG>
      you know

  <WSC#DPC320:1630:AE>
      mm

  <WSC#DPC320:1635:BG>
      <?>whereas</?> alan duff <,> well i think he's wrong in a lot of
      things

  <WSC#DPC320:1640:BG>
      i don't agree with him in a lot of things <.>what</.> that he
      says about maori

  <WSC#DPC320:1645:BG>
      the only thing i do agree with is that um maori men are
      responsible for abuse

  <WSC#DPC320:1650:BG>
      <{><[>you know</[> if they're abusers they're responsible
      <&>23:00</&> for it

  <WSC#DPC320:1655:BG>
      but i really do believe that

  <WSC#DPC320:1660:AE>
      <[>mm</[></{>

  <WSC#DPC320:1665:AE>
      <O>exhales</O>

  <WSC#DPC320:1670:BG>
      in maori culture is the answer about all that

  <WSC#DPC320:1675:BG>
      but he he's sort of twisted it around to say that it's actually
      because we're <{><[>maori that we do these things</[>

  <WSC#DPC320:1680:AE>
      <[>because we're maori</[></{> <&>23:21</&>
</I>
