<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>3:13</&>
  

  <WSC#MUL001:0005:WW>
      er so er i just want to return er greetings and er then to er
      say thank you for the invitation er to come to talk about a
      subject which um <drawls>er</drawls> would er not have er
      received er or at least ten or fifteen years ago certainly this
      kind of er seminar er and the activity that er has focused on
      the treaty in the last two or three years would have been
      predicted

  <WSC#MUL001:0010:WW>
      er and it's um er it's a sign i think to everyone that the er
      treaty is here to stay and there <&>4:00</&> have got to be
      honourable solutions <O>voc</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0015:WW>
      er if they er will not honour the solutions in my time then my
      children and my grandchildren er will be pursuing the same
      solutions

  <WSC#MUL001:0020:WW>
      i mean that's a lesson <?>and</?> a point that i'd like to make
      about <.>the</.> the activity er surrounding the treaty er <.>the</.>
      the debate that has taken er place as well as the <O>voc</O> er
      the um <O>tut</O> er actions that have been taken and not just
      on the streets but in the tribunal parlours probably not called
      that but meeting rooms and in er courtrooms and er and elsewhere
      so not only debate <.>but</.> but er action in the last er er
      five years would not have been predicted and er the basis for
      the prediction <.>that</.> <O>tut</O> <&>5:00</&> that er unless
      solutions <drawls>are</drawls> <.>found</.> are SEEN to be
      honourable by the maori partner that er the er your children <,>
      certainly my children my grandchildren will be er er engaged in
      trying to ensure that er that honourable solutions are found <,>
      <O>inhales</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0025:WW>
      um i was <.>v</.> very impressed by the er the range of er
      topics er this er er term and the kind of er readings that er
      you have and i <,> have had to er look at and i understand that
      you've done some work on the er parliamentary er system as <.>it</.>
      <O>voc</O> as it might be and er and i would er i hope that we
      will get into some discussion on that a <.>little</.> a little
      later <.>an</.> and hear what er <&>6:00</&> your thoughts er
      are <O>voc</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0030:WW>
      the um <O>tut</O> er activity in which i've been er er involved
      focusing on the treaty is in PART a result <.>of</.> of er
      associated i guess in part with the er er some of my activities
      here in the area of maori resource management

  <WSC#MUL001:0035:WW>
      um one of the questions there is er what resources er are maori
      ENTITLED TO er for the er er which they might manage and er
      we're seeing some of the recognition at least of the line that
      i've taken for some time and that is a proportion of the
      nation's budget er is to be seen as part of <&>7:00</&> the
      maori RESOURCE to be managed by maori people and er that's in
      the vicinity of um <O>tut</O> <drawls>of er three and a half</drawls>
      billion dollars um <,> yeah about four billion dollars <,,> um
      and the fact that it er isn't made available to er maori people
      er er to manage is a er a er failure to recognise er the er
      partnership in the treaty of waitangi and it is also gross
      financial mismanagement er by the er by treasury by the crown
      <O>tut</O> er and i'd like <.>t</.> <&>8:00</&> to develop on
      that a little er further but er <?>let me</?> say at this point
      that er <.>the</.> the resources that are managed by the crown
      for their partner with the er crown making decisions on policy
      and on implementation for their partner er <drawls>is</drawls>
      um best <.>described</.> the management exercise or procedure er
      i believe is best described by um a word that er raukawa has
      coined gira g i r a er which er is getting it right accidentally
      <,,> getting it right accidently and that's serious

  <WSC#MUL001:0040:WW>
      it's extremely serious

  <WSC#MUL001:0045:WW>
      it's <.>ex</.> serious for the partnership er it's serious for
      the whole nation because <.>if</.> if it is true and <.>i</.>
      there's <&>9:00</&> no fancy theory that's involved <.>it's</.>
      <.>it's</.> <O>voc</O> it's what occurs when one partner
      attempts to manage the affairs of the other partner about er
      whom they know little and the people of one culture managing the
      affairs of people of another culture er then they're bound to
      get it wrong unless they get it right accidently <,,>

  <WSC#MUL001:0050:WW>
      and that's serious for the partnership

  <WSC#MUL001:0055:WW>
      it's a denial of the treaty er and er it's at er some
      considerable expense as a matter of fact to the whole nation <O>inhales</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0060:WW>
      and the other er <?>grants</?> area in which i've been involved
      is that with the new zealand maori council er where the activity
      er over the years has been fairly intense at least from a maori
      point of view but er not being heard <,> <&>10:00</&> not being
      heard

  <WSC#MUL001:0065:WW>
      the maori council <.>has</.> over the years has taken um
      submission after submission to the er the crown in the company
      of others on occasion and er er hardly er noticed er any impact
      in er legislation on policy formulation or in administration and
      the big change came as er many of you will know when the
      government got it right accidently i believe and that's section
      nine of state owned enterprises act nineteen eighty six

  <WSC#MUL001:0070:WW>
      i believe that they had anticipated er more than er that serving
      as a er as a bit of window dressing <?>it</?> would not have
      been put into that <&>11:00</&> legislation <,,>

  <WSC#MUL001:0075:WW>
      now <,> that er opened the way for er maori council maori people
      to go to court which is not the place for partners to be talking
      over affairs <,>

  <WSC#MUL001:0080:WW>
      er it's not the place where maori people would choose to discuss
      <O>inhales</O> issues with partners

  <WSC#MUL001:0085:WW>
      they would much prefer on <.>a</.> <O>inhales</O> on er a
      <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori> where it's er er it's open to
      everyone to have their say and for the issues to be deliberated
      for as long as it was necessary <.>to</.> to get to a solution
      <,,> and that work took er the maori council into the er courts
      and fortunately they won

  <WSC#MUL001:0090:WW>
      if they hadn't they would have been bankrupt

  <WSC#MUL001:0095:WW>
      er in each of these cases maori council has gone out onto a limb
      because <.>t</.> to incur debts of hundred and fifty to three
      <&>12:00</&> hundred and fifty thousand dollars <,>

  <WSC#MUL001:0100:WW>
      there's no income or income of a hundred and twenty thousand a
      year <O>voc</O> so the er <?>put</?> the maori council <?>in</?>
      the courts and fortunately they won <O>inhales</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0105:WW>
      they won er also in the er in the er er forestry case that er
      followed the er in a sense er the victory in the fisheries er
      case and most recently er a victory er <.>over</.> the
      radiocommunications er policy <?>the country</?> and the tender
      of radio frequencies <O>inhales</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0110:WW>
      so then <.>m</.> my other main interest then has come from work
      with the er new zealand maori council on some of those issues
      that have been raised <O>inhales</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0115:WW>
      the er i think it's probably fair to <&>13:00</&> say that um
      <,> <O>voc</O> that er my observation is that er we've been too
      ready to negotiate er and um the tino rangatiratanga question
      has not been dealt with <,,> and it's possible that the er
      frequencies er <&>drawls</&> debate will be the first occasion
      when the tino rangatiratanga er question will be fully debated
      <,>

  <WSC#MUL001:0120:WW>
      er we are yet to have a claim on the parliamentary system but
      that's not too far <O>voc</O> away er and that will be the er
      another occasion then potentially <&>14:00</&> when the tino
      rangatiratanga question will be er debated <O>voc</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0125:WW>
      now er jonathan asked me i'd just say a few words on the on the
      <.>f</.> um <,> <O>tut</O> frequencies <,> <O>tut</O> question
      and then er i'd like to sit down <.>and</.> and er have some
      questions and we'll see if we can er enter into some useful
      discussion

  <WSC#MUL001:0130:WW>
      i'm sure from my point of view it will be useful can't guarantee
      that from your point of view <O>voc</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0135:WW>
      um the er maori council and the <?>nga kaiwhaka pumau i te reo</?>
      that's the maori language board <O>voc</O> the body that er runs
      te upoko o te ika the um radio station in wellington managed by
      maori people <&>15:00</&> and there is <.>a</.> inclination then
      to call it a maori station but they don't call the others pakeha
      <laughs>stations</laughs> <O>laughs</O> it's run by maori people
      and there's eighty percent maori language <O>voc</O> um took a
      claim to the er the er waitangi tribunal after some months of er
      discussion with the ministry of commerce on their proposed
      radiocommunications legislation <,,> and made absolutely no
      ground on the tino rangatiratanga question that er the er we
      argued that the crown had no er monopoly over the technology er
      and that er maori <.>people</.> er that maori partner has a
      right to develop and <&>16:00</&> on top of that is that er the
      er the space er on the land er which we stand the space above it
      and the space below it or what is er below it is part of the
      maori world and that er the er the crown should not er er IMPORT
      er a cultural view of those resources what we stand on and what
      is above it and what is below it <.>a</.> in order to er PRESUME
      authority over those spaces and indeed er ownership er er of er
      the airwaves <O>tut</O> or the ultimate er and <&>17:00</&>
      UNDISTURBED er authority to er sell the airwaves <.>without</.>
      or ACCESS to the airwaves without making adequate provision er
      for the partner OR put it another way without hearing from the
      partner what space that partner er was prepared to make
      available for tender <,>

  <WSC#MUL001:0140:WW>
      the crown has taken the view that it has the authority to
      reserve some never mind about the partner having the authority
      to free up some er which is the tino rangatiratanga question er
      the authority to free up some er access to airwaves that's the
      maori view <O>voc</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0145:WW>
      the er crown view is that they have the right er to <&>18:00</&>
      reserve some if they wish <O>voc</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0150:WW>
      um the case has er NOT debated the tino rangatiratanga question

  <WSC#MUL001:0155:WW>
      when mister justice heron er considered it last week or the week
      before <O>voc</O> er the week before i guess um he er was
      presented er with er <,> an argument that the partner was
      entitled to a <.>com</.> a broadcasting system that required
      access to these er frequencies <O>inhales</O> and er that there
      was inadequate er provision <,> and er <,> he er was aware that
      the waitangi tribunal <&>19:00</&> had er recommended to the
      crown that they not proceed with the tender the crown declined
      to take that advice

  <WSC#MUL001:0160:WW>
      he was aware of er that and er of the importance of broadcasting
      to <,,> this part of the population

  <WSC#MUL001:0165:WW>
      he did not deal with the tino rangatiratanga question <,>

  <WSC#MUL001:0170:WW>
      he did not say that er yes maori er you hold tino rangatiratanga
      <O>inhales</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0175:WW>
      he did not say yes crown you hold er sovereignty er but he
      rather looked at the er at er the er case for a better
      broadcasting system for maori people AND the <&>20:00</&>
      request of the waitangi tribunal <O>inhales</O> um <O>tut</O>

  <WSC#MUL001:0180:WW>
      now i wonder if that's <{><[>er enough from</[> me <.>and</.>
      and then we can turn to some discussion here <X>

  <WSC#MUL001:0185:XX>
      <[>that's <?>good</?></[></{></X> <X>

  <WSC#MUL001:0190:XX>
      um thank you very much</X> <&>20:11</&>
</I>
