<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>4:08</&>
  

  <WSC#MUL006:0005:RB>
      in nineteen hundred the government passed two quite important
      statutes these being the maori councils act er nineteen hundred
      and the maori land administration act <,,> er of er nineteen
      hundred <,,> <O>tut</O> and er this one set <.>up</.> the maori
      councils act set up er these maori councils <,,><&>3</&> um <,>
      which initially seemed to have worked well <?>apart from
      favoured way the</?> government wouldn't fund them properly <,,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0010:RB>
      the other act the maori lands administration <&>5:00</&> act
      <,,><&>6</&> um <,> set up er maori land councils <O>tut</O>
      <,,><&>11</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0015:RB>
      now from the act anyway it seems that these councils were to
      have the same powers as the land court er itself <,,> provided
      <.>that</.> and here is the catch <,,><&>3</&> that the council
      shall not proceed to exercise its powers in any matter unless
      and until directed so to do by the chief judge <,,><&>3</&> of
      the native <&>6:00</&> land court <O>tut</O> <,,><&>9</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0020:RB>
      um probably the most important provision of the act however was
      section thirty <,,><&>6</&> which allowed owners of maori land
      to <,,> set themselves up into a body corporate <,,><&>12</&>
      <?>now and</?> <.>this</.> this was a rather broader and more
      flexible <,,><&>3</&> um <,> procedure than the earlier <,> er
      um <,> legislative um structure allowing incorporation
      <&>7:00</&> which had been in eighteen ninety four

  <WSC#MUL006:0025:RB>
      first statute which allowed maori land owners to form themselves
      into corporate bodies had been the native land act eighteen
      ninety four but with the maori land administration act there was
      a much simpler <,> procedure <,,><&>3</&> which had rather less
      control of and by the court <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0030:RB>
      the act also set up a procedure for setting up er <?>pahetihu</?>
      block committees <,,><&>3</&> that <.>is</.> er <?>pahetihu</?>
      land that is land that hadn't gone <&>8:00</&> through court <&>writes
      on blackboard twelve seconds</&> <softly><unclear>word</unclear></softly>

  <WSC#MUL006:0035:RB>
      anyway um these um for the first time um <,> owners of land
      which hadn't gone through the court <.>we</.> were able to form
      themselves into committees that had certain powers er under
      legislation <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0040:RB>
      now the <,> maori land councils never amounted to anything but
      incorporations and block committees <,> are quite important
      <,,><&>12</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0045:RB>
      um a vastly more durable <&>9:00</&> treatment of the liberals
      was the native land act nineteen o nine <,,><&>10</&> and this
      was a massive er consolidation effort <,,><&>9</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0050:RB>
      er the statute was drafted by john william salmond <,,><&>7</&>
      er who was a professor of law <,> er right here what was then
      called victoria university college <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0055:RB>
      he's the same salmond who's the author of the <&>10:00</&>
      famous textbooks on torts and um jurisprudence <,> er and he
      also became council to the er law drafting office while he was
      simultaneously a professor and council to the law drafting
      office er <?>that</?> he was given the task of rewriting er
      maori land law <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0060:RB>
      later on he became solicitor general and then became a judge

  <WSC#MUL006:0065:RB>
      anyway er he was a lawyer of real ability <,,> and his
      consolidation and distillation of the statutory morass into one
      act <,,><&>3</&> nineteen o nine act <?>which was</?> more or
      less the same act we have now was really an AMAZING feat
      <,,><&>7</&> er and his explanatory note um which was published
      <&>11:00</&> with the act the very model of conciseness and
      clarity <,,><&>7</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0070:RB>
      um still um it was basically er the same old land court all the
      same <,,> didn't change the law structurally much er but it
      certainly made it a lot tighter and tidier and clearer
      <,,><&>5</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0075:RB>
      one particularly useful thing the nineteen o nine act did was to
      clarify the law relating to alienation <,,><&>6</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0080:RB>
      generally er the sale of individual shares was brought to an end
      <&>12:00</&> <,,><&>10</&> and no <?>like um</?> <O>clears
      throat</O> <?>say in the urewera area</?> um the crown had gone
      about buying up individual shares until er the crown had
      controlling interests in many of the urewera blocks well this is
      um not just the crown <?>did that</?> <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0085:RB>
      anyway with the nineteen o nine act only management committees
      or <?>an assembly</?> of the owners could sell <X>

  <WSC#MUL006:0090:XX>
      management committees or <?>what</?> <.>semi</.> <{><[><unclear>word</unclear></[></X>

  <WSC#MUL006:0095:RB>
      <[>or an assembly</[></{> meeting <?>house</?> there wasn't a
      formal management committee in existence <,,><&>5</&>
      <&>13:00</&> which there wasn't normally <,,><&>6</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0100:RB>
      okay so nineteen o nine act <?>well</?>

  <WSC#MUL006:0105:RB>
      the liberal government also set up an important commission <,>
      to investigate maori land <,,><&>6</&> and this was the stout
      <,> ngata commission <,,><&>10</&> that issued a sequence of
      reports between nineteen o seven <,> to nineteen o nine
      <,,><&>8</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0110:RB>
      well members of the commission sir <&>14:00</&> robert stout was
      the chief justice <,,><&>8</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0115:RB>
      apirana ngata the other member was in nineteen er o nine thirty
      five <,> he was from ngati porou university graduate in law <,>
      and political science <,,> <?>both degrees at canterbury</?> and
      he was member of parliament for eastern maori <,,><&>5</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0120:RB>
      ngata held eastern maori from nineteen o five to nineteen forty
      three <,,><&>4</&> er and then he was biffed out by <.>ratana</.>
      by the ratana candidate <&>15:00</&> <,,><&>5</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0125:RB>
      now development and settlement of maori land by maori farmers
      <,> was <,> er ngata's life work <,,><&>8</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0130:RB>
      he was a committed politician <,,><&>6</&> one who never lost
      contact with his own community <,,><&>8</&> and also a
      successful and knowledgeable <.>farmer</.> sheep farmer <,> <?>he
      knew all <.>about</.></?> <,,><&>6</&> <&>16:00</&> and er on
      this on farming in particular he had drawn on his ngati porou
      background and on ngati porou initiatives <,,><&>9</&> and ngati
      porou had held on to their lands <,,> well most of them
      especially the best part which was the <?>waipu</?> valley
      <,,><&>8</&> and from the late eighteen eighties ngati porou <,>
      with no government assistance or indeed interest <,,> er had
      rapidly expanded <&>17:00</&> sheep farming <,> er in their area
      <,,><&>5</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0135:RB>
      by nineteen hundred ngati porou owned about ninety flocks of
      sheep <,> big flocks <,,> and had cleared and grassed about
      fifty thousand acres <,,> of land <,,><&>11</&> and <unclear>word</unclear>
      <,> ngati porou chiefs who had encouraged and sponsored ngata er
      er he had acquired the opinion that only by developing land
      could the maori hold onto it <,,> and <&>18:00</&> developing it
      meant <,,><&>3</&> in essence clearing it for farming
      <,,><&>13</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0140:RB>
      um ngati porou's successful farming ventures had come about as a
      result of a long struggle <,,><&>3</&> er and there had been
      many setbacks for them <,,><&>5</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0145:RB>
      on one occasion for instance the local government stock
      inspector had ordered all these maori flocks of sheep to be
      destroyed because they had scabby <,,><&>3</&> might infected
      the flocks of the pakeha farmers you <&>19:00</&> see can't have
      that <,,><&>5</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0150:RB>
      er obtaining capital <,,> er to buy stock erect fences and farm
      buildings to clear and sow the land and so on <,> had been a
      perennial problem <,,><&>7</&> um and er the williams family who
      were pakeha station owners in waipu assisted with capital
      <,,><&>3</&> <O>voc</O> in giving loans to ngati porou since <.>none</.>
      well no capital was available from the banks <,> or from
      <&>20:00</&> the state <,,><&>7</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0155:RB>
      two reasons for that firstly <,> er problems with security banks
      would NOT lend <,,> er on maori land titles <,> they were
      inadequate security <,,><&>7</&> that's still a problem

  <WSC#MUL006:0160:RB>
      the other <,> the other reason was sort of maori image held by
      bankers that was <,> <O>voc</O> <.>w</.> feckless and wouldn't
      pay so a sort of racist assumption as well <,,><&>3</&> <O>laughs</O>
      yeah <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0165:RB>
      so ngati porou <&>21:00</&> nevertheless with some loan support
      <.>and</.> and by their own fundraising <.>they</.> they sort of
      actually had to sort of stage something <.>at</.> <.>th</.> at
      the <indig=Maori>marae</indig=Maori> in order to bring them
      money and this would get a few thousand pounds and they'd go and
      buy some sheep <,> right

  <WSC#MUL006:0170:RB>
      it was a VERY um sort of determined <,> er effort <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0175:RB>
      <.>th</.> <.>th</.> their interest in farming was accompanied by
      um interest in doing something to surmount the problems caused
      by congested titles <,,><&>8</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0180:RB>
      ngati porou were worried about government land purchase policy
      in the east cape region <,,><&>3</&> so <&>22:00</&> in the
      eighteen nineties er the government was fairly aggressively
      expanding purchase of maori land for the pakeha settlement
      <,,><&>8</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0185:RB>
      er ngati porou therefore withdrew all of their blocks from
      investigation by the native land court in eighteen ninety four
      <,,><&>3</&> until an undertaking had been obtained from seddon
      <,> the prime minister richard seddon <,> that the crown would
      keep its clutches off ngati porou land <,> and so <&>23:00</&>
      they just <?>pulled</?> their land out of the court <,,><&>6</&>
      and from the <,,> early eighteen <,> nineties late eighteen
      eighties really ngati porou had begun to develop a system later
      be <.>called</.> later to be called incorporations <&>writes on
      blackboard nine seconds</&> which is still quite an important
      <,> method of maori land organisation <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0190:RB>
      it's been overtaken in more recent years by um other techniques
      such as um trusts under section four three eight of the maori
      affairs act <,> um but incorporations are still used
      <&>24:00</&> relatively widely and er i believe are still the
      main form of organisation along the east cape <,,><&>7</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0195:RB>
      um the first incorporation seems to have been set up as early as
      eighteen eighty nine <,,><&>3</&> <O>clears throat</O> which
      therefore predates by five years <.>the</.> the legislature
      actually setting up some machinery er whereby you could
      incorporate <,> <?>except perhaps</?> in the eighteen ninety
      four act later expanded and made easier in the nineteen hundred
      <.>n</.> act <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0200:RB>
      now how it works is basically the owners of a block would meet
      <,> to elect a committee of <&>25:00</&> management <,,><&>7</&>
      which would formally incorporate itself <,,><&>11</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0205:RB>
      now the owners and their families would form the incorporations
      and labour force <,,><&>7</&> and dividends would be paid <,,>
      on the basis of respective shares in the land <,,><&>8</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0210:RB>
      okay so if one family had bigger shares in the land they would
      get a bigger dividend <,> so <&>26:00</&> it was related to <.>your</.>
      <,> your status as landowners how much income you'd get
      <,,><&>3</&> <O>voc</O> but it's also related to the land

  <WSC#MUL006:0215:RB>
      then <.>ac</.> in nineteen sixty seven by a stupid blunder the
      <.>legislatur</.> the legislature changed that um <.>and</.> and
      made the shares share in the <.>org</.> incorporation itself
      like a company which had the effect of making incorporations <{><[><,>
      a lot less popular</[>

  <WSC#MUL006:0220:RB>
      in nineteen SIXTY SEVEN maori affairs amendment act nineteen
      sixty SEVEN of ill fame <,,><&>9</&> <O>voc</O>

  <WSC#MUL006:0225:RB>
      <.>the</.> the committee the incorporation would appoint a
      salaried farm <&>27:00</&> manager <,,><&>6</&> um <,,> who
      would have quite wide powers <,,><&>7</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0230:RB>
      so these developments were ngata's background

  <WSC#MUL006:0235:RB>
      he was familiar with all this

  <WSC#MUL006:0240:RB>
      he knew what was going on um these ngati porou initiatives and
      that was the model that he <.>was</.> he worked on when er he
      became involved in <,,> er <,> national political life <X>

  <WSC#MUL006:0245:XX>
      <[>sorry would you <?>repeat that</?></[></{></X> <X>

  <WSC#MUL006:0250:XX>
      excuse me <unclear>word</unclear> can i just check <?>when you
      say <.>forming</.></?> create themselves does that mean that
      they would do it as themselves or do they <unclear>word</unclear></X>

  <WSC#MUL006:0255:RB>
      er <.>i</.> i assume that before the eighteen ninety four act
      which allowed the court <.>you</.> you'd actually got a court a
      court made the <&>28:00</&> incorporation but you'd set yourself
      as an incorporation <?>in</?> the incorporated societies act <?>something
      like that</?> so you'd simply use <.>the</.> <,> if you like the
      pakeha legal emphasis to call yourself an <.>incorporat</.> an
      incorporation THAT way <,,><&>6</&> um they would do it by an
      order of <unclear>word</unclear> <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL006:0260:RB>
      right well back to the stout ngata commission <,,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0265:RB>
      um the commission toured all round the place <,,> um and made a
      number of separate reports of each region <,,> and these are all
      <?>in the h a a charter</?>

  <WSC#MUL006:0270:RB>
      they make pretty dismal reading i must say um <,> you know we're
      so accustomed to thinking of the early twentieth century as sort
      <&>29:00</&> of an age of reform and modernisation er and yet it
      makes us realise <.>how</.> <.>how</.> um the extent of <,>
      rural policy and um difficulties with lands development were
      actually so widespread <,> er <.>at</.> at this time and you <.>read</.>
      particularly read the reports on um the north <X>

  <WSC#MUL006:0275:XX>
      are we talking here <.>about</.> mainly <.>about</.> about maori
      land <{><[><?>and</?> maori er</[> and maori the maori <?>context</?></X>

  <WSC#MUL006:0280:RB>
      <[>about maori land right yeah</[></{>

  <WSC#MUL006:0285:RB>
      yes yes sorry yes <,,> um but one area reported on in detail was
      <?>waiapu</?> county <,,> which was ngata's home turf of course
      <,> and the successful farming experiments of ngati porou were
      described at some length <,,><&>5</&> and the <&>30:00</&>
      report <,,> er describes the ngati porou incorporations as
      follows and this will give you some sense of <.>how</.> how it
      was working <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0290:RB>
      <.>now</.> <,,><&>4</&> <reads>now one block has been
      successfully carried on under the incorporation system since
      eighteen eighty nine and the members of the committee that has
      had the control of the block and the farming operations have
      held office with few changes during all of these years <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0295:RB>
      this block or group of blocks has been properly and securely
      FENCED and subdivided and it has suitable farm buildings for the
      work <unclear>word</unclear> <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0300:RB>
      the buildings are equal to similar buildings of EUROPEAN
      pastoral lands and the stock are reputed in the district to be
      equal to the average on lands farmed by europeans</reads> <,,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0305:RB>
      presumably it's necessary to say all this to convince a
      sceptical parliament <,> <&>31:00</&> still didn't believe that
      maori could successfully do anything <,,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0310:RB>
      <reads>the management is equal to the most <?>approved</?>
      pastoral farming

  <WSC#MUL006:0315:RB>
      labour is supplied by maoris and generally by the owners or
      their families <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0320:RB>
      all the details of the farming operations are carried out and
      settled by a competent manager who is paid a salary <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0325:RB>
      at the end of each financial year the accounts are made up and
      adjusted and the profits divided amongst the owners according to
      their respective interests in the land <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0330:RB>
      er the committee is responsible for the general policy of the
      improvements <,> has general supervision of the finances and <.>is</.>
      <.>has</.> is the sole <?>authority for bearing a dividend</?>
      but the details are left to the manager</reads> <,,><&>3</&> er
      <.>and</.> and words which have the true stamp of ngata himself
      <reads>the maoris are a communal people and THIS system which
      preserves a community of interest but also <&>32:00</&> allows
      and rewards individual exertion may be the best means of
      creating a better industrial life amongst a communal people</reads>
      <,>

  <WSC#MUL006:0335:RB>
      if anything sums up ngata's ambition it is that a better
      industrial life amongst a communal people <&>32:16</&>
</I>
