<I>

  <&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One</&>
  <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies</&>
  <&>Victoria University of Wellington</&>

  <&>side one</&>
  <&>4:55</&>
  

  <WSC#MUL008:0005:MK>
      first of all the context in which we are <,> looking at the
      topic <,> as i said <,> i quite unashamedly <,> i think i can
      take credit for a book which er you might find of some interest
      er edited by <?>boffman martin caller</?> and walsh called er
      <,> reshaping the state <,> new zealand's bureaucratic
      revolution which is <,> an attempt <,,> written just on the
      election to capture <,> what had been happening in the reforms
      <,> changes to the public service after the budget last <,> or
      the years of the labour government <,,> and i think we quite
      rightly chose the word revolution for that but of course the
      earthquakes and tremors have not yet <,> stopped and if we
      thought we were going into a <.>p</.> period of <,> peace in the
      structure of government <?>but</?> it's not exactly the case <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0010:MK>
      more specifically in legislative terms <,> i think we're talking
      about the state owned enterprises act of nineteen eighty six the
      state sector act of <,> nineteen eighty eight <,> and the public
      finances act <,> of nineteen eighty nine are the three <.>k</.>
      key pieces of <,> legislation in this area <,,> but of course
      there have been vast changes in the <&>6:00</&> STRUCture <,>
      the machinery of government as we call it <,> over these years
      too <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0015:MK>
      bodies that existed <,> five years ago no longer exist <,,> new
      agencies proliferate and that's not unimportant as i'll say
      right at the end for any of you who are <,> perhaps going into
      practice in administrative law in the next few years <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0020:MK>
      why all this happened is a highly interesting topic about which
      i spend most of my life <,> thinking but it's not appropriate to
      <,> talk about that today nor about the process by which these
      changes have taken place so <,> all i think i can do is to list
      a few characteristics of <,> the new <,> bureaucracy the new
      public service <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0025:MK>
      the first <,> is there has been a shift from <,> bureaucracy
      <,,> and i quote the sort of words which are commonly used
      results oriented <,> entrepreneurial <,> can do <,> public
      service <,,><&>3</&> and i think we must note in passing that
      bureaucracy which we <,> most of us i think <,> except those who
      live in the zoo <,> <&>7:00</&> tend to regard it as a
      pejorative word <,> a put down isn't it <,> we talk about
      bureaucracy and about red tape <,,> er bumbling people on the
      counters of various public agencies <,> the labour report <?>involved</?>
      a neutral <,> description of <,> the way in which particular
      kinds of organisations <,> function <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0030:MK>
      the latest shift of mood and i've just been in reading some of
      the pronouncements <,> certainly of er sir robin cooke <,> and
      <?>of</?> <unclear>word</unclear> thomas and others <,> who
      continue to refer to administrators <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0035:MK>
      that's an absolute <.>no</.> no word now for bureaucracy <,>
      that's old style <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0040:MK>
      we used to administer now we manage <,,> and that's a <,> is not
      an unserious point that i <,> make

  <WSC#MUL008:0045:MK>
      it is interesting that sir robin <,> and others continue to talk
      about the administrator in their <,> decisions and contributions
      to the discussion <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0050:MK>
      the second point i think the second characteristic is <,> the
      removal of the <.>las</.> over the last few years <,> to a
      greater or lesser extent <,> of what i shall call the four
      <&>8:00</&> pillars <,> which supported the structure of <,>
      government <,> executive government <,> since the public service
      act of nineteen twelve <,,> and they were that we had <,>
      regarding the unified <,> apolitical <,> anonymous <,> career
      <,> public servants <,,> <?>it's a matter of a</?> unified <,>
      apolitical <,> anonymous <,> career service <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0055:MK>
      now i'll <,> make some <,> assertions <,> rather than points for
      argument <,> <unclear>word</unclear> <,> now we've got what we
      often say are forty odd <,> different businesses <,,> rather
      than a unified public service <,> forty odd different businesses
      <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL008:0060:MK>
      the chief executive of each <,> agency is now the employer with
      all the <,> rights that go with employers <,> rather than <,>
      the centralised control of the state services commission <,>
      which used to be the employer for the whole <,> of the public
      service <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL008:0065:MK>
      i said we had an <&>9:00</&> apolitical public service and
      indeed we had a uniquely apolitical public service and i'm sure
      <.>y</.> that sir geoffrey palmer and i would debate the merits
      of this <,> some length um <,> uniquely as i say <?>it's</?>
      apolitical <,> almost <,> i can think of no other country <,>
      certainly in our kind of jurisdiction where ministers did not
      have some say <,> who is to be their principle advisors <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0070:MK>
      in new zealand the appointment was made <,> by the state
      services commission <,> and indeed it was an offence for
      ministers <,> to intervene in that process of appointment <,,>
      but now under the state sector act we have a process <,> whereby
      ministers not only <,> quite rightly in my view have a say in
      the kind of jobs that they want done <,> but also have the right
      <,> to appoint <,> what's called a NAMED person <,> by order in
      council <,> if in fact they don't agree with the state service
      commission's recommendation and some of you <,> may recall the
      fuss over the <&>10:00</&> appointment of mister hendersley <,>
      to <,> the defence department last year although he's now been
      appointed <,> in the last week <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0075:MK>
      the <,> national party have said that they will in fact change
      that legislation and go back to apolitical appointments <?>so
      we'll have to watch and</?> wait and see <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0080:MK>
      thirdly it was an anonymous public service <,,> a sort of
      unwritten <,> contract in events was that <,> ministers took the
      credit or the blame <,,> and public servants <,> were those grey
      figures <,> that SOME might suggest <,> were behind the curtain
      <?>pulling the strings</?> for the <,> public figures or
      ministers but you've all watched <,> sir humphrey in action no
      doubt <,> <O>laughter</O>

  <WSC#MUL008:0085:MK>
      <.>y</.> i don't know how we taught political science before we
      <,> had sir humphrey <,> er to help us with this <,> whole
      question of <unclear>word</unclear> and so forth <,,><&>6</&>

  <WSC#MUL008:0090:MK>
      i think <.>the</.> i'll also mention the career of public
      servants and i just simply make the point that <,> there was an
      expectation that people who <,> <&>11:00</&> joined the public
      service as a cadet at the age of sixteen or in the last twenty
      years as a university graduate <,> all had the <?>bat on into</?>
      the future <,> being a permanent head if <,> they behaved
      themselves and had ability and so on and all could <,> clamber
      up that <,> ladder and become a permanent head <,,> with a few
      years in the job until they retire with superannuation at the
      age of sixty again is something of the past and not the future
      <,,> and that was based on a view that there were particular <,>
      expertise and skills <,,><&>3</&> that were learned and applied
      in government <,,><&>3</&> and a certain suspicion of the idea
      that there was generic management skills that could somehow <,>
      interchangeably go from the private sector <,> to the public
      sector and back <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0095:MK>
      the two particular things <,> which <,> underpin that view i
      think <,> which are relevant to our subject <,> were the
      relationships between <,> civil servants and ministers
      <,,><&>3</&> and i think a knowledge of <&>12:00</&> the forms
      and processes of er <,> parliament <,> and the law making
      process <,> and that again is worth a lecture in itself but i
      really <,> can't do that <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0100:MK>
      what we've got now we often say is managerialism <,,><&>3</&>
      the essence of that being <,> an emulation of <,> the precepts
      and practices of private sector management <,> applied <,> in
      the public sector <,,><&>3</&> something of a <?>cult of</?>
      personality about <,> chief executives <,> a far cry from the
      <,> grey figures of the past <,,> appointment on contract <,>
      rather than <,> the concept of career <,> a shortterm <,>
      contract <,,> you know if you're looking at the <,> prescription
      for the <,> chief er the <,> director general of health <,> very
      interesting bit at the end where it says <,> <reads>the
      successful applicant will have to show ability that he can move
      on <,> to even higher things <,> after being the director
      general of health</reads>

  <WSC#MUL008:0105:MK>
      there is no expectation he's going to be there for a very
      <&>13:00</&> long time <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0110:MK>
      he's obviously going to be a change agent to put into place any
      government reforms <,> performance pay <,> <?>instead of a</?>
      <,> scale <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0115:MK>
      an important point i think and <,> i speak as you'll obviously
      gather as an interpreter of these matters a loss of
      institutional memory <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0120:MK>
      again it's not unimportant in particular cases <,> involving <,>
      judicial review <,,> but over all <,> a view that <,> a job in
      <,> officialdom in the bureaucracy <,> is not all that different
      from a job <,> anywhere else <,,><&>4</&> and the trade off all
      the time between greater flexibility and efficiency <,,> and
      what is sometimes called <,> the public service ethic <,,>
      people <,> go on about <,> service to community and so on but i
      think for our purposes <,> an important part of that <.>eth</.>
      ethic <,,> is an approach that <&>14:00</&> looks at <,> people
      as <,> citizens <,> rather than as customers <,,> that is
      interested in compliant <,> rather than <,,> <.>pro</.> active
      <,> entrepreneurial behaviour <,,><&>3</&> and a <,,>
      recognition i almost said WORship of RULES <,,> back to
      bureaucracy and <,> red tape and so on with a preoccupation with
      RULES <,> rather than <,> as i said earlier <,> the can do kind
      of public service <,> all <,> entrepreneurs <,,><&>5</&>

  <WSC#MUL008:0125:MK>
      so <,> very quick <,> thumbnail sketch of the present
      environment but let me now <,> look at <,> that in a different
      way and lead us into <,> judicial review <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0130:MK>
      this seems to me <,> from where i sit that this is only one
      element in a whole barrage of <,> mechanisms instruments <,,>
      designed to <,> provide checks on <&>15:00</&> the executive
      <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL008:0135:MK>
      now i think there are two broad <,> ways you can categorise
      those checks <,,> one is internal <,,><&>4</&> by that i mean
      <,> the public service ethic <,,> a sense of professionalism
      <,,><&>3</&> and indeed codes of ethics and the state sector act
      <,> invites the state services commission which it's done <,> to
      issue a <,> a code of conduct <,,><&>3</&> and indeed some <,>
      essays that i've written for them <,> called a guide to
      administrative behaviour about <,> public <?>there are further</?>
      <,> attempts to provide <,> provide guidance as to how a
      bureaucracy should <,> act given this political environment
      <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL008:0140:MK>
      the EXternal <,> checks on the bureaucracy <,,><&>3</&> are <,,>
      <&>16:00</&> several <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0145:MK>
      first of all there's the political process itself <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0150:MK>
      i include with that in that such <,> pretty basic things as
      writing your m ps <,> parliamentary questions <,,><&>3</&> and
      in particular that rather oldfashioned but in my view
      fundamental doctrine of ministerial responsibility <,,> and a
      personal comment <?>since i've got to</?> <,> check or <,> test
      <,> innovations in government <,> the question i always ask
      myself is does it make <,> us more able to hold ministers
      accountable <,> than whatever was there before <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0155:MK>
      i'm sure you're familiar from <,> constitutional law but which
      <,> i know has different perspective on this with <,> the
      classic statement <?>which ends</?> that <,> the act of every
      <,> civil servant <,> is in fact <,> the act of <,> his or her
      minister <,> to paraphrase it <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0160:MK>
      that's a big subject on itself but i simply suggest to you that
      <,> you might explore if <&>17:00</&> you're interested in this
      area <,> the way in which the bureaucracy has increasingly been
      decoupled <,> from ministers <,,><&>3</&> particularly in <,>
      the public finance act <,,> which talks and again i'll just try
      and give you a flavour of the language which means <,> output or
      activities which are the responsibility of <,> the department
      chief executive <,> and outcomes which are defined as <,> the
      impact on the community <,,> of the government's activities
      which clearly <.>th</.> <,,> the <,> responsibility of ministers
      <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL008:0165:MK>
      the aim of the reforms is in fact to have greater accountability
      <,,><&>3</&> by <,> clarifying the responsibility by <,> making
      people <,> within this <,> grey mass that used to be the
      bureaucracy <,> stand up and be counted and publicly held
      accountable <,,> <unclear>word</unclear>

  <WSC#MUL008:0170:MK>
      yes you <,> you can actually argue <,,> we haven't actually
      doubled <&>18:00</&> the accountability we've rather <,> halved
      it or blurred it <,> because noone's quite sure now whether you
      should hold the minister <,> or <,> the department accountable
      for <,> for their actions <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL008:0175:MK>
      so the political process in all sorts of ways with which you're
      familiar <,> the media are very important in this <,> one check
      on the bureaucracy <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0180:MK>
      the official information act <,,> the ombudsman act <,,> the
      role of the controller and auditor general <,,><&>3</&> the bill
      of rights act <,,> <?>and i don't know what <,> may be heard</?>
      but i do hear from within the bureaucracy it is starting to have
      an impact upon drafting of legislation <,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0185:MK>
      people are looking <,> harder at their <,> drafting and no doubt
      <?>mister aisles</?> is also <,> as to whether legislation
      that's being contemplated <,> can in fact <,> have a certificate
      from the attorney general <,,>

  <WSC#MUL008:0190:MK>
      so finally and i'm sure there are others in this <,> judicial
      review is a role of the courts <,,> which <,> i think from my
      perspective is a last <&>19:00</&> resort <,,> if for no other
      reason than it's very expensive <,> remedy whereas <,> the
      official information act <,> writing a letter to the <,>
      minister <,> um <,> getting mister holmes to take up the cudgels
      on your behalf <,> all are much cheaper although there may be
      other costs to face to <,> tangle with mister holmes
      <,,><&>3</&>

  <WSC#MUL008:0195:MK>
      as i said like <,> mister justice thomas <,> i think judicial
      review is at the heart of administrative law <,,> and i simply
      just <,> say to you that <,> the three <,> documents of the bush
      lawyer or <,> layperson in this area i find very useful <,> are
      the paper called administrative law and the rule of law <,> by
      ted thomas q c <,> which he gave to the christchurch triennial
      law <,> conference <&>19:47</&>
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