<&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies <&>Victoria University of Wellington <&>side one <&>4:00 cos the other thing it's not like you not it's not <.>di being disparaging women i do think <,> when they have to get up and do a <.>whai a well i <.>sup i call it a whaikorero <,> or at least just a <{><[>korero <[>korero mhm no when i've had to i DO talk about the kaupapa of <.>th <.>kau kaupapa of the day i also DO mihi to the atua mhm but said like the other thing is <,> i don't do it on a marae i've never been <,> on a marae on a marae atea and <{1><[1>done anything so when i've had to do it i did it in a house or <,> usually in a house somebody's house <,> and i've mihied not to the <.>m the house or anything <{2><[2>but to <,> the tipuna that these people bring with them <[1>mhm <[2>mhm mhm and i think women recognise all that they think it's important it's just that <,> they've never stood on the marae atea and done it <,,> and very few women do <,> and even when they do <{><[>voc it's a matter of who's taught them how to do it <[>mhm <{><[>mm <[>cos who the teacher is and whoever <.>th whatever they think is important is what you're going to learn <&>5:00 <,,> mm <,,> but it's <,> if if you try and relate that to now to how people are learning <,> we're learning <,> how to speak like maori men or we're not LEARNING but we <,,> well that's all all <,> if you look at university and you look at who the teachers are <,> like the hohonu ones mhm are men <,> and they've <.>alw i mean at vic they've split <,> classes up i've heard into <,> bits where you learn whaikorero <,> and they only have men <,> and then there's waiata and there's heaps of women but men can learn that too and to me it's almost it's not fair i don't see WHY we can't learn whaikorero i don't i KNOW all the arguments why we don't DO it mhm and i don't agree with them laughs but why can't we learn it nobody said <,> we couldn't learn it i mean even if it's just to understand what other people are saying maybe it's to do with the thing of <&>6:00 knowledge though knowledge ISN'T for everyone oh it is in a university i <{1><[1>mean that if <,> <{2><[2>when you <[1>mhm <[2>oh i see in a university <&>pronounced nuniversity yeah but maybe <,,> what are they teaching them really i mean if i sat there and listened to them teaching whaikorero at university i could understand it <,> and it's not that deep that <{><[>i couldn't do it <[>mm <,,> mm it's all to do with <,> because there's of the context of a western university <,> maybe they're too scared to do <,> to mix the two cos the <,,> well voc you know when you did your thesis on <,> you did it on tino <{><[>rangatiratanga eh <[>mm <,,> was your did you deal with knowledge and how knowledge is mhm not for everyone and knowledge <{1><[1>is mhm <,> <{2><[2>well maybe <[1>tapu <[2>all <.>kno all knowledge is tapu but some's more some is more tapu <{><[>than others laughs and i talked about whaikorero <[>tapu than others mhm and knowledge of that is that tapu or <&>7:00 <,> because <.>i if if you have it that <,> the <{1><[1>knowledge well to do it then you really do it at a university because it's not it shouldn't be available to everyone <,> whereas at <{2><[2>universities all these things should be available <[1>that's tapu <[2>yeah well this is true i think if you're gonna do it at a university <&>pronounced nuniversity it should be available to everyone <{1><[1>if you don't want to do it <{2><[2>where it's available then don't do it at a university <[1>oh I see we've <[2>then don't <.>vailable don't do it at ALL oh yeah do it on your marae <{><[>and then select who's gonna learn it <[>so <.>y so what you're saying is <,> those courses where they have men ONLY doing whaikorero they shouldn't do it if they're gonna do that because then the the <.>ele they're almost like having half rules of maori and half rules of university and <.>m trying to mix the two eh yeah and but i've <.>hear but see <,> what they have taught up there i i could understand it i could learn it <,> any woman could learn it mm so what's their reason it's <{><[>yeah <[>and their whole reason comes down to this tapu thing <,> which doesn't really apply at a university but the other thing about tapu is i think women have a different idea of what should be tapu and what shouldn't <{1><[1>to me what's on the marae atea's <&>8:00 an open thing and um it's not tapu what i think is tapu is personal knowledge <,,> and that's mainly cos of my work <,> doing counselling i <{2><[2>understand now that some things some knowledge yeah i would protect it and i wouldn't just give it to anyone <{3><[3>but it's got nothing to do it's got nothing to do with maori language <,> it's um the kind of knowledge i wouldn't give to anyone even if i spoke english laughs <[1>mhm <[2>mhm <[3>mhm oh yeah you know? <.>i it's got nothing to do with the reo <,,> <.>g why i wouldn't give it is that like a universal <,> tapu then well or is there a specifically maori to me the kind of knowledge that i think should be really tapu is knowledge that is dangerous in other people's hands oh yeah and that's got nothing to do with the language i give it in although <,> explaining something in maori is sometimes a LOT easier than in pakeha but <,> see i have personal knowledge about other people that i wouldn't give to someone else unless i really trusted them <{1><[1>and like personal knowledge about myself and my family <,> um <,> which <&>9:00 i wouldn't give away just like that <,> and <{2><[2>other knowledge i think that's tapu is knowledge that you have <,> worked really hard at acquiring <[1>oh yeah <[2>mm oh yeah that um is a benefit to people <,> um and if used by <.>a another group of people could be a could be dangerous oh yeah <,,> so <{1><[1>to me this whole thing about whaikorero being <{2><[2>tapu is crap laughs <[1>so <[2>tapu mm yeah when you think about it i mean i <.>r the i reckon <&>pronounced as reckom <,> that maori people only did things that were logical <,> that's the well not logical but they had a reason for doing anything so if they said <,> voc you don't do this as it was even maybe <,> health reasons you don't do this or just <,> for selfpreservation reasons you don't do they didn't ever <.>re well I think they didn't ever really make any <,> laws or tapu or whatever <,> just for the sake of it just to benefit mhm at a superficial level like well it's things like is that right is that what you think laughs <&>10:00 everything everything we did mhm had a purpose <,,> you didn't just make these rules out of thin air laughs well then although i think when christianity came all these all these other rules came with it which we didn't understand <{1><[1>we <.>s i personally <,> think that we used them er well at least men used them for convenience <,> <{2><[2>to cut other people out <[1>mhm <[2>mm that's what i was i was talking with denny and that how <,> in this um project i'm doing i'm trying to see whether <,> when <,> maori people <.>m like the people those students that i take when they were speaking what rules they were reflecting in their speech <&>pronounced as speet speech were they <,> maori cultural rules like within themselves or were there INTERcultural rules <.>w like pakeha rules coming in and um <,> i had to do this integration network thing but anyway it's <{><[>sniffs laughs <[>laughs i think if you took away all the christianity mhm and saw what was left there'd be very <&>11:00 little that was really really <,> maori maori um <,> because i think that before christianity came there were no divisions <,> as far as er rights to knowledge or <,> at least as far as status is concerned mhm i <.>r i really truly believe that um have you got <{><[>evidence of WHY you believe that <[>there were <.>divi there were divisions as far as what roles there might have been <{1><[1>BUT i don't i i still go further back and i would say that <,> um just for practicality's sake <{2><[2>if you're if you're a tribal society <,> who depends on the environment <[1>yeah <[2>mhm mhm and who depends on on human power or <.>o in reproduction yeah then what do you think <,> would <.>wha what purpose would it serve to cut out half the population i e women <,> and say this is your role and you're not allowed to do fighting you're not allowed to do all these other things <{><[>that men do <,> i mean to me that's stupid <,> if you're gonna survive as a group you don't cut out half the group <[>mm mm and say <,> you just <&>12:00 stay here and you do the <{><[>gardening laughs <[>but what about um other like other tribal societies that do survive <,> you know just on their population say like without christianity? without christianity like voc i don't know the ones in the amazon or something how how are their men and women's <{><[>relations <[>well when i did my thesis <.>the see there's no place in the world that hasn't been touched <&>sighs by christians and when <.>the <{1><[1>or at least by white people and when they are <,> obviously white people are writing down what they <,> <{2><[2>what they believe they do and what what they believe they think <,> about what they do <{3><[3>so when i was doing my thesis the only stuff i could find i tried to find only written by native people <{4><[4>from you know indigenous people from that particular country and i and when i couldn't find that i found white people who wrote about <,> the way they've been colonised <,> the way these indigenous people have been colonised the stuff that i found where indigenous people wrote about what it was like to be <,> say for instance um inuit <{5><[5>or um native american <,> before white people came suggested to me that women <,> um <&>13:00 were just as important in <{6><[6>every area of life as men <[1>mm laughs <[2>what they think <[3>mm <[4>mhm <[5>mhm <[6>as yeah oh <{><[>you reckon <[>and then they were <,> colonised by spanish and or at least in guatemala they were colonised by spanish <{><[>and <,> they were really staunch christians laughs <[>mhm mm destroyed everything <,> and um <,> what survived is what er white <.>r historians have written down and the only white historian that i've ever seen who said that um basically <,> everything you've ever read is written by white people and you have to suspect it mhm who's that oh ronald wright ronald wright mm <{><[>and he he basically just said we should get out of the way now and let indigenous people write their own stories <,> and i i'd go further and say i reckon everyone should get out of the way and let indigenous women write their stories first both laugh <[>god mm actually we did this um <,> in one of my <&>14:00 other linguistic things <,> and they were talking about <,,> oh nah nah change subject <,> change subject it's funny that <.>the there's voc <,> like in that tribal ethnographies that i'm doing now with um tamati <.>we voc just going over that terangi kaheke <,> stuff and that and how <,> all his all his manuscripts and that have only ever been <,> um <,> what's the word analysed by like <,> jennifer curnow and agatha thornton and what's that other guy's name i just remembered is it finlay or binney some people at varsity lots of people actually lots of lecturers <,> what used to piss me off is lecturers that OTHER lecturers <,> didn't give enough weight to their own people <{><[>and what they had to say <,,> but that's because part of the job is to defend your work you have to have another academic who's written about the topic who says what you say <,> and so if you can't find an academic who's written about this particular kaupapa then it's like it's just your opinion and it's not important <[>mhm mm so they get a lot of other white people i mean cos most people academics are white <{><[>laughs and in new zealand until recently most people writing about maori have been white <[>sniffs mm and i find that really sad i think it's really sad it's really <,> mm so if <.>we're i mean to me teaching the reo up there is no different to teaching any other topic about <.>m maori people eh people think say like the reo is somehow <,> more <{><[>important and it's not <[>more important it's it's funny that cos <.>y i remember having a argument with johnny about this and he said oh no <,> tikanga's more important than the reo and i was going no but you need the reo blah blah blah and he goes nah <,> tikanga he goes you can lose the <.>l the reo i said what about whaikorero he goes <.>tha that's just whaikorero is just <,> another <,> way of <&>16:00 representing culture maori culture but <.>i it's the tikanga you follow it's the manakitanga and they were and all this and all <{><[>this and every now and then i kept thinking mm maybe he's right <[>mm i don't think either one's more <{1><[1>important i think they're all important the only thing i was saying to henare too that you notice <,> now he he rabbits on about the reo cos <{2><[2>that's his job and piripi rabbits on about the reo and he was on the radio not long ago saying you know every other culture in the WORLD has a tikanga which is true <[1>mm? <[2>mhm mhm everyone has a way of burying their dead everyone has a way of mourning everyone has a way of welcoming people everyone has a way of looking after <{><[>people but nobody else has maori both laugh <[>mhm which is true <{><[>laughs <[>yeah that's true but so what so what's his point mm that if the maori if maori language dies so does everything else and i <.>j i said to hemi that's <{><[>not necessarily true <[>that's not right mm i would always know the right way to <,> say <&>17:00 goodbye to my dead without knowing maori mhm i'd rather say it in maori and i'd but other things survive like wairua survives without maori well that's a really good that's a really good point because when he says that he just infers that if you do lose maori then you lose everything <{><[>when you don't <[>but i think <,> if we lost maori probably eventually in time mhm we would lose the way of perceiving <,> things <{><[>in a maori way <[>mhm mm like i don't know another pakeha word for wairua <,> because to me wairua means lots and lots <{1><[1>of things it's not just spirituality <,,> so <,> for instance you know when you meet someone <{2><[2>and you get on really well with them you've only just met them and you think shit this person's neat <[1>lots of things <[2>mhm mm to me that's your wairua reaching out oh yeah what would a pakeha say that is i don't know <{><[>laughs <[>mm <&>17:55 <&>one minute forty five second section not transcribed <&>19:40 see you get a lot of maori men today won't cry <,> you know <.>an and see when i was thinking about my koroua at home mhm and he was crying and i thought shit that's really neat i <{1><[1>mean it's really sad but it's really nice here is this really old koroua crying um and okay he's he doesn't use his maori language much now but he still knows <{2><[2>that it is it is <.>re it's okay <[1>mm <[2>mm okay you get a lot of maori men today they just <&>20:00 stop it they won't cry the women no sweat <{1><[1>laughs and <,> even things like <.>one one thing i really brought home to me is when i met with women at awhina wahine <{2><[2>they're all maori <,> and you know how people say to do things in a maori way whatever that means to me the whole idea of aroha was brought home really strongly when we had to confront an abuser <{3><[3>a woman a maori woman and we did it with a lot of aroha a lot people thought would've thought that that was really stupid that we should have just done them we <.>re really should've gone for them <,> but we didn't and i reckon the reason we didn't cos we understand what aroha <.>re really is and we understand what a tikanga maori really is <[1>no sweat gaw <[2>uh huh <[3>mhm mhm mhm and a tikanga maori is about mana and i understand what mana is without actually being a fluent speaker of maori <,> and how come i understand that and i obviously i understand it because i understand about aroha and i might only have a few words but at least i know what it means <&>21:00 <{1><[1>but as a man in a different <.>sit in that situation <{2><[2>might have really gone for that person and really shat on them and we didn't we told them basically in no uncertain terms what we thought of her <[1>mm <&>21:00 <[2>uh huh mhm and what she did <,> but we did it with aroha and her mana was intact and to me that's one of the most important things you have to learn <,,> you know her mana was intact she walked away with her mana intact and we walked away with ours intact and that's about gaw that's <,,> you knew and you <.>n <.>n voc oh mm it's i'm not saying we let her off we <.>did i mean i certainly told her that i didn't condone what she <{><[>did and i thought it was disgusting so on and so forth but i let her also know that we care about her cos she's a maori woman and you know this is what she has to do <[>mhm mm to make amends but i don't know if men learn that when they learn maori i don't think they do that's a really good point <,,> because if you hadn't if she had've left without her <&>22:00 mana intact then what would she how would she have improved and <{><[>you know <[>if she hadn't left without her mana intact we would've been just as bad as <{><[>she was <[>MM i mean she would there's no way that she would've improved and gotten over <.>a these bad things because she's got nothing there to <.>s to build on she'd also have no reason to cos she'd look at us and think oh <{><[>you're just as bad as me <[>mm mm and her she'd still be harbouring feelings mm bad ones about us and have no reason to want to change but do men i don't think men understand that but is that maori men now or men in general oh men in general but maori men who say what pisses me off are maori men who tell me <{><[>what tikanga maori is and then turn around and beat up their wife <[>uh huh mm you know mm whereas alan duff <,> well i think he's wrong in a lot of things i don't agree with him in a lot of things <.>what that he says about maori the only thing i do agree with is that um maori men are responsible for abuse <{><[>you know if they're abusers they're responsible <&>23:00 for it but i really do believe that <[>mm exhales in maori culture is the answer about all that but he he's sort of twisted it around to say that it's actually because we're <{><[>maori that we do these things <[>because we're maori <&>23:21