<P_523>

And when my father had tolde me this tale , than sayd he ferther thus :
(MROPER-E1-P2,523.2)

' I pray the now , good Marget , tell me this , (MROPER-E1-P2,523.3)

Wouldest you wishe thy poore father beinge at the lestwise somewhat
learned , lesse to regarde the peryll of his soule , than did there the
honest unlearned man ? (MROPER-E1-P2,523.4)

I medle not <paren> you wote well </paren> with the conscience of any
man , that hath sworne , (MROPER-E1-P2,523.5)

nor I take not vpon me to be their iudge . (MROPER-E1-P2,523.6)

But now if they do well , and that their conscience grudge them not ,
if I with my conscience to the contrary , shoulde for good cumpany
passe on with them and swere as they doe , when all our soules
hereafter shall passe out of this worlde , and stand in iudgement at
the barre before the hie Iudge , if he iudge them to heauen and me to
the deuil , because I did as they did , not thinking as they thought ,
if I should than say <paren> as the good man Cumpany sayd </paren> mine
olde good lordes and frendes , naming such a lorde and such , yea and
some bishoppes peraduenture of such as I loue best , I sware because
you sware , and went that way that you went , doe lykewise for me now ,
let me not goe alone , yf there be any good felowship with you , some
of you come <P_524> with me : by my trouth Marget I may say to the , in
secret counsayle , here betwene vs twayne <paren> but let it go no
ferther , I besech the hartely </paren> . I finde the frendship of this
wretched worlde so ficle , that for any thinge that I coulde trete or
pray , that wolde for good felowship goe to the deuyll with me , amonge
them all I wene I shoulde not finde one . (MROPER-E1-P2,524.7)

And than by God , Margett , if you thinke so too , best it is I suppose
that for any respecte of them all were they twyse as many moe as they
be , I haue my selfe a respecte to mine owne soule . '
(MROPER-E1-P2,524.8)

' Surely , Father , ' quod I , ' without any scruple at all , you may
be bolde I dare say for to sware that . (MROPER-E1-P2,524.9)

But Father , they that thinke you shoulde not refuse to swere the
thinge , that you see so many so good men and so well learned swere
before you , meane not that you shoulde sweare to beare them felowship
, nor to passe with them , for good cumpany : But that the credence
that you may with reason geue to their persons for their aforsayd
qualities , shoulde well moue you to thinke the oth such of it selfe ,
as euery man may well swere without peryll of their soule , if their
owne priuate conscience to the contrary be not the lett : and that ye
well ought and haue good cause to chaunge your owne conscience , in
confirming your owne conscience to the conscience of so many other ,
namely beinge such as you knowe they be . (MROPER-E1-P2,524.10)

And sith it is also by a lawe made by the parlement commaunded , they
thinke that you be vpon the peryll of your soule , bounden to chaunge
and reform your conscience , and confirme your owne as I said to other
mens . ' (MROPER-E1-P2,524.11)

' Mary , Marget ' <paren> quod my father again </paren> , ' for the
parte that you playe , you playe it not much a misse .
(MROPER-E1-P2,524.12)

But Margaret fyrst , as for the law of the land , though euery man
being borne and inhabiting therin , is bounden to the keping in euery
case vpon some temporall paine , and in manye cases vpon paine of
Goddes displeasure too , yet is there no man bounden to swere that
euery law is well made , nor bounden vpon the payne of Goddes
displeasure , to perfourme any such poynt of the law , as were in dede
vnleafull . Of which maner kind , that ther may such happe to be made
in anye part of Christendome , I suppose no man doubteth , the generall
counsell of the whole body of Christendome euermore in that poynt
excepte : which <paren> though it may make some thinges better than
other , and some thinges may growe to that poynt , that by a nother law
they may nede to be refourmed , yet to institute any thinge in such
wise , to Goddes displeasure , as at the makinge might not lawfully be
perfourmed , the spirit of God that gouerneth his churche , <P_525>
neuer hath it suffered , nor neuer here after shall , his whole
catholike church lawfully gathered together in a generall counsell ,
<paren> as Christ hath made playne promises in Scripture </paren> . '
(MROPER-E1-P2,525.13)

Now if it so hap , that in any particular parte of Christendome , there
be a law made , that be such as for some parte therof some men thinke
that the law of God can not beare it , and some other thinke yes , the
thing being in such maner in question , that throwe diuerse quarters of
Christendome , some that are good men and cunninge , both of our owne
dayes and before our daies , thinke some one way , and some other of
lyke learninge and goodnesse thinke the contrary , in this case he that
thinketh against the lawe , neither may swere that law lawfully was
made , standing his owne conscience to the contrarie ,
(MROPER-E1-P2,525.14)

nor is bounden vpon paine of Goddes displeasure to chaunge his owne
conscience therin , (MROPER-E1-P2,525.15)

for any particular law made any where , other than by the generall
counsaile or by a generall faith growen by the workynge of God
vniuersally thorow all Christian nacions : nor other authorite than one
of these twayne <paren> except speciall reuelacion and expresse
commaundement of God </paren> sith the contrary opinions of good men
and well learned , as I put you the case , made the vnderstanding of
the Scriptures doubtefull , I can see none that lawfully may commaunde
and compell any man to chaunge his owne opinion , and to translate his
owne conscience from the tone side to the tother . '
(MROPER-E1-P2,525.16)

For an example of some such maner thinges , I haue I trow before this
time tolde you , that whether our Blessed Lady were conceyued in
orygynall syn or not , was sometime in great questyon among the great
learned men of Christendome . (MROPER-E1-P2,525.17)

And whether it be yet decided and determined by any generall counsaile
, I remember not . (MROPER-E1-P2,525.18)

But this I remembre well , that notwithstanding that the feast of her
conception was than celebrate in the Church <paren> at the least wyse
in dwerse prouinces </paren> yet was holy S. Bernard , which as his
many folde bokes made in the lawde and praise of our Ladie doe declare
, was of as deuoute affection towarde all thinges sowninge toward her
commendacion , that he thought might well be veryfied or suffered , as
any man was liuing , yet <paren> I say </paren> was that holy deuoute
man against that part of her prayse , as appeareth well by a pistle of
his , wherin he right sore and with great reason <P_526> argueth ther
against , and approueth not the institucion of that feaste neyther .
(MROPER-E1-P2,526.19)

Nor he was not of this mynde alone , (MROPER-E1-P2,526.20)

but many other well learned men with hym , and right holy men too .
(MROPER-E1-P2,526.21)

Now was ther on the tother side , the blessed holy byshop , S. Anselme
, (MROPER-E1-P2,526.22)

and he not alone neyther , (MROPER-E1-P2,526.23)

but many well learned and very verteous also with hym .
(MROPER-E1-P2,526.24)

And they be both twayne holy saintes in heauen ; and many mo that wer
on eyther syde . (MROPER-E1-P2,526.25)

Nor neither parte was ther bounden to chaunge ther opinion for thother
, nor for any prouinciall counsell either . ' (MROPER-E1-P2,526.26)

But lyke as after the determinacion of a well assembled generall
counsaile , euery man had been bounden to geue credans that way , and
confirme their owne conscience to the determinacion of the counsayle
generall , and than all they that helde the contrary before , were for
that holding oute of blame , so if before such decision a man had
against his owne conscience , sworne to maintain and defend the other
side , he had not fayled to offende God very sore .
(MROPER-E1-P2,526.27)

But marye if on the tother side a man wolde in a matter take away by
hym self vpon his owne minde alone , or with some fewe , or with neuer
so many , against an euident trouthe appearing by the comon faith of
Christendome , this conscience is very damnable , yea ,
(MROPER-E1-P2,526.28)

or if it be not euen fully so plaine and euident , yet if he see but
hym self with farre the fewer parte , thinke the tone way , against
farre the more parte of as well learned and as good , as those are that
affirme the thinge that he thinketh , thinkinge and affirming the
contrary , and that of such folke as he hath no reasonable cause
wherfore he shoulde not in that matter suppose , that those which say
they thinke against his minde , affirme the thinge that they saye , for
none other cause but for that they so thinke in dede , this is of very
trouth a verie good occasion to moue hym , and yet not to compelle hym
, to confirme his minde and conscience vnto theirs . '
(MROPER-E1-P2,526.29)

But Margaret , for what causes I refuse the othe , the thinge , <paren>
as I haue often tolde you </paren> I will neuer shewe you , neither you
nor no body elles , excepte the Kynges Highnes shoulde lyke to
commaunde me . Which if his Grace did , I haue ere this tolde you
<P_527> therin how obediently I haue sayde . (MROPER-E1-P2,527.30)

But surelye , Daughter , I haue refused it (MROPER-E1-P2,527.31)

and doo , for mo causes than one . (MROPER-E1-P2,527.32)

And for what causes so euer I refuse it , this am I sure , that it is
well knowen , that of them that haue sworne it , some of the best
lerned before the oth geuen them , saide and plaine affirmed the
contrarye , of some such thinges as they haue now sworne in the othe ,
(MROPER-E1-P2,527.33)

and that vpon their trouth , and their learning than ,
(MROPER-E1-P2,527.34)

and that not in hast nor sodainly , but often and after great diligens
done to seke and finde out the trouth . ' (MROPER-E1-P2,527.35)

' That might be , Father ' <paren> quod I </paren> ,
(MROPER-E1-P2,527.36)

' and yet since they might see more , I will not ' <paren> quod he
</paren> , ' dispute , daughter Margaret , against that , nor misse
iudge any other mans conscience , which lyeth in their owne hart farre
out of my sight . (MROPER-E1-P2,527.37)

But this will I say , that I neuer heard my self the cause of their
chaunge , by anye new further thinge founden of authoritie , than as
farre as I perceyue they had loked on , and as I suppose , verie well
wayed before . (MROPER-E1-P2,527.38)

Now $if {TEXT:of} the self same thinges that they sawe before , seme
some otherwise vnto them now , than they did before , I am for their
sakes the gladder a great dele . (MROPER-E1-P2,527.39)

But any thinge that euer I saw before , yet at this day to me they seme
but as they dyd . (MROPER-E1-P2,527.40)

And therfore , though they may doe other wise than they might , yet ,
Doughter , I may not . (MROPER-E1-P2,527.41)

As for such thinges as some men woulde happely saye , that I might with
reason the lesse regard their chaunge , for any sample of them to be
taken to the chaunge of my conscience , because that the kepinge of the
princes pleasure , and the auoyding of his indignacion , the feare of
the losing of their worldly substaunce , with regarde vnto the
discomfort of their kynrede and their frendes , $might happe make some
men either swere otherwise than they thinke , or frame their conscience
afreshe to thinke other wise than they thought , any such opinion as
this is , wil I not conceiue of them , (MROPER-E1-P2,527.42)

I haue better hope of their goodnes than to thinke of them so .
(MROPER-E1-P2,527.43)

For if such thinges shoulde haue tourned them , the same thinges had
been lykely to make me do the same , (MROPER-E1-P2,527.44)

for in good faith I knew fewe so faint hearted as my selfe .
(MROPER-E1-P2,527.45)

Therfore will I , Margaret , by my wyll , thinke no worse of other
folke in the thing that I know not , than I finde in my selfe .
(MROPER-E1-P2,527.46)

But as I know well mine onely conscience causeth me to refuse the othe
, so will I trust in God , that according to their conscience , they
haue receyued it and sworne . ' (MROPER-E1-P2,527.47)

But where as you thinke , Margett , that they be so many moe than there
are on the tother side that thinke in this thinge as I <P_528> thinke ,
surelie for your owne coumfort that you shall not take thought ,
thinking that your father casteth himself away so lyke a foole , that
he wolde ieobarde the losse of his substaunce , and peraduenture his
bodie , without any cause why he so shoulde for peryll of his soule ,
but rather his soule in peryll therby too , to this shall I say to the
, Marget , that in some of my causes I nothing doubte at all , but that
though not in this realme , yet in Christendome aboute , of those well
learned men and verteouse that are yet alyue , they be not the fewer
parte that are of my minde . (MROPER-E1-P2,528.48)

Besides that , that it were ye wot well possible , that some menne in
this realme too , thinke not so clere the contrary , as by the othe
receyued they haue sworne to saye . ' (MROPER-E1-P2,528.49)

Now this farre forth I saie for them that are yet alyue .
(MROPER-E1-P2,528.50)

But go we now to them that are dead before , and that are I trust in
heauen , (MROPER-E1-P2,528.51)

I am sure that it is not the fewer parte of them that all the time
while they liued , thought in some of the thinges , the way that I
thinke nowe . (MROPER-E1-P2,528.52)

I am also , Margaret , of this thinge sure ynough , that of those holy
doctours and saintes , which to be with God in heauen long ago no
Christen man douteth , whose bookes yet at this day remayne here in
mens handes , there thought in some such thinges , as I thinke now .
(MROPER-E1-P2,528.53)

I say not that they thought all so , but surely such and so manye as
will well appeare by their wryting , that I pray God geue me the grace
that my soule may folow theirs . (MROPER-E1-P2,528.54)

And yet I show you not all , Margarett , that I haue for my self in the
sure discharge of my conscience . (MROPER-E1-P2,528.55)

But for the conclusion , doughter Margeret , of all this matter , as I
haue often tolde you , I take not vpon me neither-2 to diffine nor
dispute in these matters , (MROPER-E1-P2,528.56)

nor I rebuke not nor impugne any other mans dede ,
(MROPER-E1-P2,528.57)

nor I neuer wrote , nor so much as spake in any cumpany , any worde of
reproch in any thing that the Parlement had passed ,
(MROPER-E1-P2,528.58)

nor I medled not with the conscience of any other man , that either
thinketh or saith he thinketh contrarie vnto mine .
(MROPER-E1-P2,528.59)

But as concerninge mine owne self , for thy coumfort shall I say ,
Daughter , to the , that mine owne conscience in this matter <paren> I
damne none other mans </paren> is such , as may well stand with mine
owne saluacion , (MROPER-E1-P2,528.60)

therof am I , Megge , so sure , as that is , God is in heauen .
(MROPER-E1-P2,528.61)

And therfore as for all the remenaunt , goodes , landes , and lyfe both
<paren> if the chaunce sholde so fortune </paren> sith this conscience
is sure for me , I verelie trust in God , (MROPER-E1-P2,528.62)

he shall rather strenght me to bere the losse , than against this
conscience to swere and put my soule in peryll , sith all <P_529> the
causes that I perceyue moue other men to the contrary , seme not such
vnto me , as in my conscience make any chaunge . '
(MROPER-E1-P2,529.63)

When he saw me sit with this very sadde , as I promisse youe , Sister ,
my heart was full heauye for the peryll of his person , for in faith I
feare not his soule , he smyled vpon me (MROPER-E1-P2,529.64)

and said : ' how now doughter Marget ? (MROPER-E1-P2,529.65)

What how mother Eue ? (MROPER-E1-P2,529.66)

Where is your mind now ? (MROPER-E1-P2,529.67)

sit not musing with some serpent in your brest , vpon some newe
perswasion , to offer father Adam the apple yet once againe ? '
(MROPER-E1-P2,529.68)

' In good faith , Father , ' quod I , ' I can no ferther goe ,
(MROPER-E1-P2,529.69)

but am <paren> as I trow Cresede saith in Chauser </paren> comen to
Dulcarnon , euen at my wittes ende . (MROPER-E1-P2,529.70)

For sith thensaumple of so many wise men can not in this matter moue
you , I see not what to say more , but if I shoulde loke to perswade
you with the reason that Master Harry Patenson made .
(MROPER-E1-P2,529.71)

For he met one day one of our men , (MROPER-E1-P2,529.72)

and when he had asked where you were , and heard that you wer in the
Towre still , he waxed euen angry with you (MROPER-E1-P2,529.73)

and said , " Why ? (MROPER-E1-P2,529.74)

What aileth hym that he $will $not {TEXT:wilnot} swere ?
(MROPER-E1-P2,529.75)

Wherfore sholde he sticke to swere ? (MROPER-E1-P2,529.76)

I haue sworne the oth my self . " (MROPER-E1-P2,529.77)

And so I can in good faith go now no ferther neither , after so many
wise men whom ye take for no saumple , but if I should say lyke M.
Harry , Why should you refuse to swere , Father ? (MROPER-E1-P2,529.78)

for I haue sworne my self . ' (MROPER-E1-P2,529.79)

At this he laughed (MROPER-E1-P2,529.80)

and said , ' That word was lyke Eue to , (MROPER-E1-P2,529.81)

for she offered Adam no worsse fruit than she had eten her self . '
(MROPER-E1-P2,529.82)

' But yet Father , ' quod I , ' by my trouth , I feare me very sore ,
that this matter will bringe you in merueilous heauy trouble .
(MROPER-E1-P2,529.83)

You know well that as I shewed you , M. Secretary sent you word as your
very frende , to remember , that the Parlement lasteth yet . '
(MROPER-E1-P2,529.84)

' Margaret , ' quod my father , ' I thanke hym right hartely .
(MROPER-E1-P2,529.85)

But as I shewed you than again , I left not this geare vnthought on .
(MROPER-E1-P2,529.86)

And albeit I knowe well that if they wolde make a law to doe me any
harme , that lawe coulde neuer be lawfull , but that God shall I trust
<P_530> kepe me in that grace , that concerning my duetie to my prince
, no man shall doe me hurte but if he doe me wronge <paren> and than as
I told you , this is lyke a riddle , a case in which a man may lese his
head and haue no harme </paren> , and notwithstanding also that I haue
good hope , that God shall neuer suffer so good and wyse a prince , in
such wyse to requyte the longe seruice of his true faithfull seruaunt ,
yet sith there is nothing vnpossible to falle , I forgat not in this
matter , the counsell of Christ in the gospell , that ere I shoulde
beginne to builde this castell for the sauegarde of mine owne soule , I
sholde sit and rekon what the charge wold be . (MROPER-E1-P2,530.87)

I coumpted , Marget , full surely many a restles night , while my wife
sleapt , and went that I had slept to , what peryll was possible for to
fall to me , so farre forth that I am sure there can come none aboue .
(MROPER-E1-P2,530.88)

And in deuising , Daughter , therupon , I had a full heauy harte .
(MROPER-E1-P2,530.89)

But yet <paren> I thanke our Lorde </paren> for all that , I neuer
thought to chaunge , though the very vttermost shoulde happe me that my
feare ranne vpon . ' (MROPER-E1-P2,530.90)

' No , Father <paren> quod I </paren> , it is not lyke to thinke vpon a
thinge that may be , and to see a thinge that shall be , as ye shoulde
<paren> our Lord saue you </paren> if the chaunce should so fortune .
(MROPER-E1-P2,530.91)

And than should you peraduenture thinke , that you thinke not now
(MROPER-E1-P2,530.92)

and yet than peraduenture it wolde be to late . ' (MROPER-E1-P2,530.93)

' To late , Daughter , ' <paren> quod my father </paren> , ' Margaret ?
(MROPER-E1-P2,530.94)

' I besech our Lord , that if euer I make such a chaunge , it may be to
late in dede . (MROPER-E1-P2,530.95)

For well I wot the chaunge $can $not {TEXT:cannot} be good for my soule
that chaunge I say that shoulde growe but by feare .
(MROPER-E1-P2,530.96)

And therfore I pray God that in this worlde I neuer haue good of such
chaunge . (MROPER-E1-P2,530.97)

For so much as I take harme here , I shal haue at the lest wise the
lesse therfore when I am hence . (MROPER-E1-P2,530.98)

And if so were that I wist well now , that I should faint and fall ,
and for feare swere here after , yet wolde I wish to take harme by the
refusing first , (MROPER-E1-P2,530.99)

for so should I haue the better hope for grace to rise againe .
(MROPER-E1-P2,530.100)