Mr. Sol. Gen. Whither he did say he was going , when he went from your House on the 26th ? --- (OATES-E3-P2,.1) Mrs. Harwell . I think to Tixhall , he said . (OATES-E3-P2,.2) Mr. Sol. Gen. When did you see him again after that ? (OATES-E3-P2,.3) Mrs. Harwell . He returned to me again the 4th of September following . (OATES-E3-P2,.4) That Night he supped at my House , (OATES-E3-P2,.5) and lay there ; (OATES-E3-P2,.6) and he staid at my House Thursday the 5th of September , Friday , the 6th , (OATES-E3-P2,.7) and he went away on the 7th from me for good and all . (OATES-E3-P2,.8) Mr. At. Gen. Whither did he go then ? (OATES-E3-P2,.9) Mrs. Harwell . To Tixhall , I think , (OATES-E3-P2,.10) I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} tell . (OATES-E3-P2,.11) Mr. At. Gen. Whence did he say he came , when he came last to your House ; which was Wednesday the 4th of September ? (OATES-E3-P2,.12) Mrs. Harwell . Then he said he came from Boscobel and Black-Ladies , and that Way . (OATES-E3-P2,.13) Mr. Sol. Gen. Can you tell any Thing that makes you remember he was at Boscobel ? (OATES-E3-P2,.14) Mrs. Harwell . I have some Circumstances that make me believe and remember it . (OATES-E3-P2,.15) L.C.J. Ay , tell us what they are . (OATES-E3-P2,.16) Mrs. Harwell . My Lord , upon Monday the 2d of September , I heard Mr. Ireland would be at Boscobel , (OATES-E3-P2,.17) and I said to my Friend that told me so , (OATES-E3-P2,.18) Sure Mr. Ireland will not be there that Night , and I so near him . (OATES-E3-P2,.19) Yes , said she , he will . (OATES-E3-P2,.20) Then , said I , I will write to him ; (OATES-E3-P2,.21) and so I did . (OATES-E3-P2,.22) And I tell you the 4th of September , which was Wednesday , he came to my House , and staid that Night , and the two next Days with me , (OATES-E3-P2,4.82.23) and went away upon the Saturday after . (OATES-E3-P2,4.82.24) {COM:insert_helsinki_sample_2} L.C.J. We ask it only because Mr. Oates desires to be satisfied in that Point . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.27) Mr. At. Gen. Pray swear Mr. Howard . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.28) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.29) Mr. Sol. Gen. What time in August 78 , did you see Mr. Ireland in Staffordshire , and where ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.30) Mr. Howard . I came out of Shropshire upon the 27th of August , to the Horse-race at Etching-hill ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.31) and there I saw this Mr. Ireland upon the 28th . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.32) I dined at one Mr. Herbert Aston 's House at Bellamore , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.33) and there I saw him again . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.34) Mr. At. Gen. What other Time did you see him ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.35) Mr. Howard . Never any other Time . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.36) Oates . How does he know it was the same Mr. Ireland ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.37) Mr. Howard . I came up to Town soon after , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.38) and they told me that knew him , that it was the same Ireland that suffer'd . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.39) Mr. At. Gen. Swear Mr. Drayton . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.40) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.41) Mr. Sol. Gen. Where did you see Mr. Ireland ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.42) Mr. Drayton . At Etching-hill Race . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.43) Mr. At. Gen. What Day was that ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.44) Mr. Drayton . That was the 27th of August 1678 . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.45) Mr. At. Gen. When did you see him after ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.46) Mr. Drayton . The next Day following I did not see him ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.47) but the Thursday following I saw him at Tixhall , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.48) and he went home with Mr. Heveningham to Aston ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.49) and I saw him on Friday , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.50) he was with us there , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.51) and went a fishing , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.52) and we catch'd a great Pike of a Yard long , which was not ordinary with us . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.53) Upon the 31st , which was Saturday , my Master went to kill a Buck in the Park , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.54) and Mr. Ireland went along with him ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.55) and they went to a little Village hard by , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.56) and there I parted with him , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.57) and did see him no more that Day . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.58) Mr. Gerrard of Hildersham was to meet my Master a hunting , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.59) but he was sick , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.60) and did not : (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.61) Then upon Sunday the 1st of September , I was sent to see Mr. Gerrard of Hildersham , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.62) and there I saw Mr. Ireland . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.63) L.C.J. Who was your Master , pray you ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.64) Mr. Drayton . This Lord Gerrard of Bromley 's Father . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.65) Mr. At. Gen. He was accused by Dugdale of the Plot , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.66) and died afterwards in Newgate . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.67) Oates . Pray ask Mr. Drayton what Religion he is of ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.68) Mr. Drayton . I am a Roman Catholic . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.69) Mr. At. Gen. Swear Sir James Simmons . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.70) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.71) Mr. Sol. Gen. When did you see Mr. Ireland , Sir James ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.72) Sir James Simmons . Upon Tuesday the 27th of August 78 , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.73) I remember very well I saw Mr. Ireland at the Horse-race at Etching-hill , between Sir Henry Gough and Mr. Chetwind ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.74) and I remember particularly , that Sir Henry Gough 's Horse distanc'd him . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.75) I did not see him before he came to the Inn ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.76) but there we met , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.77) and drank together . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.78) And Thursday the 29th of August , being at Tixhall Bowling-green , Mr. Ireland was there , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.79) and came home with my Father Heveningham and me , and some Gentlemen in the Country ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.80) and came to Aston , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.81) and staid there that Night . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.82) I remember the next Day was Pancrass Fair , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.83) and I went to the Fair , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.84) and did not come home . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.85) Mr. At. Gen. What Day of the Moneth is that Fair usually kept ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.86) Sir James Simmons . It is an unconstant Time ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.87) now and then in September , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.88) now and then in August ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.89) and that Year we had a Subscription to get it regulated to a certain Day . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.90) L.C.J. Did you see him after ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.91) Sir James Simmons . My Lord , I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} swear to the Saturday , because I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} so well tell whether I came back from the Fair on Friday Night ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.92) I think I did not . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.93) Mr. At. Gen. Swear Mr. Green . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.94) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.95) Mr. Sol. Gen. Did you know Mr. Ireland ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.96) Mr. Green . Yes , my Lord , I did . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.97) Mr. Sol. Gen. When did you see him in 78 ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.98) Mr. Green . The first Time was Etching-hill Race the 27th of August . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.99) Mr. Sol. Gen. What other Days do you remember ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.100) Mr. Green . Thursday the 29th I saw him ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.101) I belong to Sir James Simmons , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.102) and Mr. Ireland came home with him , and some other Gentlemen , to Mr. Heveningham 's at Aston , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.103) and was a setting with him on Friday the in the Afternoon . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.104) And Saturday the 31st he was a hunting with Mr. Gerrard . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.105) Nay , more than that , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.106) I saw him drawn on the Sledge , but not executed ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.107) and that was the same Man that was there at that Time . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.108) Oates . What Religion is this Gentleman of ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.109) Mr. Green . I was ever a Roman Catholick . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.110) L.C.J. Pray , were they a fishing that Day ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.111) Mr. Green . In the Morning he was , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.112) and they got a great Pike ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.113) I saw the Pike , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.114) and did eat Part of it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.115) Mr. At. Gen. Swear Mr. Fallas . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.116) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.117) Mr. Sol. Gen. When did you see Mr. Ireland , Sir ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.118) Fallas . Upon the Thursday after Sir Henry Gough 's Race , which was Thursday the 29th of August , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.119) Mr. Ireland came to Mr. Heveningham 's , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.120) and I look'd to his Horse there . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.121) Upon Friday Morning they went a fishing , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.122) and got a great Pike ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.123) and I did see them go out a setting after Dinner , he and Mr. Green , with my Lady and the Keeper ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.124) and I saw him come in again : (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.125) and I saw him drink a Glass of Table-Beer in the Hall . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.126) Upon Saturday Morning , which was the 31st of August , they went a hunting in Mr. Gerrard 's Park , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.127) and killed a Buck ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.128) and afterwards my Master ask'd him to go home with him again , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.129) but he would not ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.130) for he said he must go to Mr. Lowe 's at Four , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.131) and we parted at Three . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.132) And I came here , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.133) and saw him executed ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.134) but while he was at my Master's House , his Horse was never out of the Stable , but I brought it to him . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.135) Mr. At. Gen. When did you see him executed ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.136) Fallas . It was the 24th of January afterwards , I think . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.137) Oates . What Religion are you of ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.138) Fallas . I am for the Church of England , a Protestant ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.139) I always was so . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.140) Oates . Pray , my Lord , ask him when he was acquainted with Mr. Ireland ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.141) Fallas . The first Time was the 29th of August , when he came to my Master's House . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.142) Oates . That does not come to my Time , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.143) Mr. At. Gen. But it comes very close to it ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.144) it reaches to 31st of August . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.145) L.C.J. It is within a Day of you , upon my Word . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.146) Mr. Sol. Gen. And $I $'ll {TEXT:I'll} tell your Lordship what is yet more considerable ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.147) this Place is an hundred and twenty Miles from London : (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.148) but we shall not leave him there . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.149) Oates . I desire to know whose Servant he is ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.150) Fallas . I am a Servant to Mr. Heveningham , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.151) and I serve the King ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.152) I come to testify the Truth . (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.153) I was here before , (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.154) but then we must not be heard ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.86.155) all the Cry was against us , that we were Rogues , and must be knock'd on the Head . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.156) L.C.J. Were you here at any of the Trials ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.157) Fallas . I was at the Council-Table , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.158) and there I was in great Danger of being knock'd on the Head . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.159) Oates . Would they have knock'd him on the Head at the Council-Table , does he say ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.160) Fallas . I have been in the room by the Council-Table , where they have cried , knock them down , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.161) hang them {COM:sic} Rogues ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.162) do they come to be Witnesses against the Saviour of the World ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.163) And they came about me there , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.164) and asked me if I knew any of them , or was of their Company ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.165) And I was glad to say I came thither about a Suit of Law I had with a Brother of mine , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.166) and then they pitied me . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.167) Mr. Sol. Gen. Now we have brought him , my Lord , every Night where he lodged from the 3d of August to the 31st . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.168) Mr. At. Gen. And then we shall prove that he went to Mr. Gerrard 's at Hildersham that they speak of ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.169) there he was the 31st and 32d - (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.170) L.C.J. How , Mr. Attorney , the 32d ! (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.171) I doubt you will hardly be able to tell us where he was then . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.172) Mr. At. Gen. The 1st of September , I mean , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.173) L.C.J. Ay , we understand you very well . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.174) Mr. At. Gen. Swear Mr John Proctor . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.175) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.176) Mr. Sol. Gen. When did you see Mr. Ireland in 78 ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.177) Proctor . I saw him the 31st of August 78 . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.178) Mr. Sol. Gen. Where ? - (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.179) Proctor . At Fulford . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.180) Mr. Sol. Gen. At whose House ? - (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.181) Proctor . At Mr. Lowe 's . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.182) Mr. Sol. Gen. That was the Place the other Witness said Ireland told him he was to be at four of the Clock , and therefore went away at three . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.183) Mr. At. Gen. When did you see him afterwards ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.184) Proctor . I saw him the next Day , the 1st of September . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.185) Mr. At. Gen. Where ? - (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.186) Proctor . At Esquire Gerrard 's . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.187) Mr. At. Gen. How far is that from Mr. Lowe 's ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.188) Proctor . It is a Mile and a Half . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.189) Mr. Sol. Gen. Did you see him afterwards ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.190) Proctor . Not there , I did not . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.191) Mr. At. Gen. What Religion are you of ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.192) Proctor . I am a Protestant . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.193) L.C.J. What did you hear became of that Ireland afterwards ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.194) Proctor . I saw him executed at Tyburn afterwards , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.195) and it was the same Man . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.196) L.C.J. Where did you live then ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.197) Proctor . I lived at Fulford then . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.198) L.C.J. What , with Mr. Lowe ? - (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.199) Proctor . Yes , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.200) Oates . It seems he was a Servant to a Papist . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.201) L.C.J. What then , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.202) what of that ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.203) Oates . My Lord , I desire you would ask him , whether he ever saw Ireland before the 31st of August which he speaks of ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.204) Proctor . No , I did not . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.205) L.C.J. But you are sure it was the same Man you saw executed ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.206) Proctor . Yes , I am sure of it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.207) Mr. Sol. Gen. What Circumstance can you tell that he was the 1st of September at Mr. Gerrard 's ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.208) Proctor . I went to Dinner thither that Day : (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.209) I rode before Madam Brooke . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.210) L.C.J. What Day of the Week was that 1st of September ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.211) Proctor . It was upon a Sunday , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.212) Mr. At. Gen. Was that about Pancrass Fair-time ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.213) Proctor . Yes , my Lord , it was . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.214) Mr. Sol. Gen. He can tell you another Circumstance how he comes to remember him at Mr. Lowe 's the 31st of August . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.215) L.C.J. Ay , by what Token do you remember that he was there the 31st of August ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.216) Proctor . I went that Day to {COM:lacuna_in_text} pay some Money , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.217) and came home again in the Afternoon ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.218) and just as I came in , he came thither . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.219) Oates . How does he say he knows him to be the same Man ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.220) L.C.J. He has told you twice , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.221) he saw him executed . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.222) Oates . What Religion is he of , does he say ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.223) L.C.J. He is a Protestant . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.224) Mr. At. Gen. Then swear Mr. John King . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.225) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.226) Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray , do you acquaint the Court and the Jury where you saw Mr. Ireland , and when ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.227) Mr. King . I saw Mr. Ireland at Mr. Gerrard 's of Hildersham the 1st of September , that Year that the Plot broke out , which was in the Year 78 . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.228) There I saw him on Sunday ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.229) and there he staid all Night , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.230) and so did I ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.231) and on Monday Morning I went to Mrs. Crompton 's where I liv'd , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.232) and he came thither to Millage as soon as I , which is within a Mile of Hildersham , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.233) and dined there the same Day . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.234) L.C.J. How far is that from London , pray you ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.235) Mr. King . An hundred and ten Miles . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.236) L.C.J. And he was there at Dinner , you say ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.237) Mr. King . Yes , he was . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.238) L.C.J. How long was it before Dinner was done ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.239) Mr. King . I believe he might go thence about two of the Clock . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.240) L.C.J. Where did he say he designed to go then ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.241) Mr. King . He designed to go to Boscobel that Night . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.242) L.C.J. Do you remember any body else was at Mr. Gerrard 's then when you saw him ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.243) Mr. King . Yes , Mr. Jerman Drayton was at Hildersham at that Time . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.244) Oates . Pray , what Religion is this Gentleman of ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.245) Mr. King . I am a Roman Catholick , Mr. Oates . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.246) Mr. At. Gen. Pray swear Mr. Francis Lee . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.247) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.248) Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray , tell my Lord and the Jury where you saw Mr. Ireland , and when . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.249) Lee . I was a Servant to Mr. Gerrard , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.250) and Mr. Ireland upon Saturday Night came to my Master's House , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.251) and staid all Night and all Day on Sunday , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.252) and went away on Monday to Millage . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.253) L.C.J. What time and what Year was it ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.254) Lee . It was in 78 ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.255) but I am not certain of the Day of the Month : (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.256) It was on a Saturday he came , (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.257) and I have Witnesses to prove I was there at that time . (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.258) L.C.J. What Month was it ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.87.259) Lee . It was in August , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.261) as I think , the last Day ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.262) but I am not certain . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.263) And he went on Monday to Millage , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.264) and there dined at Mrs. Crompton 's ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.265) and from thence he went to Pancrass , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.266) and thence he did go to Boscobel , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.267) and staid all Night there . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.268) Mr. At. Gen. That was the 2d of September . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.269) L.C.J. How do you know he went to these Places ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.270) Lee . I was told so . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.271) Oates . My Lord , I desire to know how long this Man was acquainted with Ireland before ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.272) Lee . I never saw him but at that time . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.273) Oates . How does he know it is the same Man then ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.274) Mr. King . Here is a Man that saw me with him , and was present at Ireland 's Execution . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.275) L.C.J. Who is that ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.276) Proctor ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.277) Mr. King . Yes , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.278) L.C.J. Then call Proctor again . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.279) Who came in again . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.280) Who went along with you to Dinner on Monday ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.281) Lee . My Lord , he did see me at Hildersham at Mr. Gerrard 's . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.282) L.C.J. What say you , Proctor , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.283) was this Gentleman there at that time ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.284) Proctor . Yes , my Lord , I did see him there . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.285) L.C.J. Was that the same Man that was executed , which you saw at Mr. Gerrard 's ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.286) Proctor . Yes , it was . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.287) L.C.J. Did you dine with Mr. Ireland on Monday at Mrs. Crompton 's ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.288) Lee . Yes , my Lord , I did , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.289) and went afterwards with him to Pancrass , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.290) and staid there two Hours , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.291) and then he went to Boscobel . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.292) Mr. Sol. Gen. There are the two Days gone which Mr. Oates swore to , and in which he was so positive that it was either the 1st or 2d of September . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.293) Mr. Sol. Gen. Then swear Mr. Biddolph . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.294) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.295) Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray , Sir , when did you see Mr. Ireland , and where ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.296) Biddolph . My Lord , I was in Staffordshire the latter end of August and the beginning of September , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.297) and I was at Mrs. Crompton 's House , which is my Aunt , the 2d of September being Monday , where I saw Mr. Ireland , and dined with him that day ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.298) and after Dinner he went with Mr. Gerrard 's Son , who was to go to School to Boscobel . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.299) And I will give your Lordship a particular Circumstance that may satisfy you that I am not mistaken in the time : (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.300) As I came through Northhamptonshire that Summer , I was at my Lord Cullen 's , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.301) and he desired me to be at a Horse-Race at Newton-Slade , where there is a Plate always run for the first Thursday in September , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.302) and that Year it was the 5th of September . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.303) Now when I dined at my Aunt Crompton 's , she would have had me staid all Night at her House , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.304) but I excused myself , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.305) and told her I had promised to come to my Lord Cullen 's to be at the Race , and must needs be there before , to be as good as my Word to my Lord ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.306) and therefore I went away to Pancross , and so on my Journey , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.307) otherwise I had staid with my Aunt all Night : (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.308) and I am sure this was Monday before this Horse-Race . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.309) Oates . My Lord , this Gentleman speaks to no Year particularly . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.310) Biddolph . It was in 1678 , the Year before Mr. Oates 's Plot broke out . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.311) Mr. At. Gen. Now we will call Mrs. Crompton . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.312) Swear her . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.313) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.314) Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray , when did you see Mr. Ireland , Mrs. Crompton ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.315) Mrs. Crompton . He was at my House at Millage in Staffordshire at Dinner , the same Day that my Nephew Biddolph did dine there : (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.316) As for the Day of the Month , I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} so well tell it , because when my Friends dine with me , I $do $n't {TEXT:don't} use to note down the Day particularly ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.317) but it was , I remember , a pretty remarkable time , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.318) for it was about Pancrass -Fair . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.319) Mr. Gerrard of Hildersham came with him , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.320) and Mr. Ireland being a Stranger , I asked who he was , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.321) and they told me it was Mr. Ireland : (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.322) He never was at my House before nor after ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.323) he was a mere Stranger to me . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.324) L.C.J. What Day was it , say you ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.325) Mrs. Crompton . It was the same Day my Nephew Biddolph dined there . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.326) L.C.J. Was it Monday the 2d of September , do you remember ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.327) Mr. At. Gen. He says he was at her House at Millage that Day , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.328) and she says it was the same Day he dined there . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.329) Mrs. Crompton . But I never note down the particular Days when my Friends dine with me , except I had particular occasion to do it , as I had none at this time . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.330) Oates . My Lord , I desire to know what Religion this old Gentlewoman is of ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.331) Mrs. Crompton . I am a Roman Catholic , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.332) Mr. At. Gen. Swear Mrs. Palmer . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.333) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.334) Mr. Sol. Gen. Mrs. Palmer , where did you see Mr. Ireland ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.335) Mrs. Palmer . I was at Dinner at Mrs. Crompton 's at Millage , where there was a Gentleman called Mr. Ireland that did dine there . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.336) L.C.J. When was it ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.337) Mrs. Palmer . I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} tell truly what Day it was . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.338) L.C.J. Who was there besides you at Dinner that Day ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.339) Mrs. Palmer . $'T $is {TEXT:'Tis} so long since , I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} remember . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.340) L.C.J. Was Mr. Biddolph there ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.341) Mrs. Palmer . Not that I remember , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.342) L.C.J. What do you bring her for , Mr. Attorney ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.343) Mr. At. Gen. She dined there that Day it seems ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.344) but if she $can $not {TEXT:cannot} remember it , I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} help it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.345) L.C.J. But these kind of Witnesses do but slack your Proof . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.346) Mr. Sol. Gen. My Lord , I think we do over-do our Business indeed . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.347) Mr. At. Gen. We have one more Witness to this Point , (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.348) and that is , Mrs. Mary Holmes ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.349) swear her . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.350) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.351) Where did you see Mr. Ireland in the Year 78 ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.352) Mrs. Holmes . I saw him at Millage , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.353) L.C.J. When ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.354) Mrs. Holmes . The first , or the beginning of September , I am sure . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.355) Mr. Sol. Gen. What Day of the Week was it ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.356) Mrs. Holmes . Monday . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.357) L.C.J. You have Proof enough of this , Mr. Attorney General . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.358) Mr. At. Gen. Truly , I think so , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.359) Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray swear Mrs. Esther Gifford . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.360) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.361) Mrs. Gifford , when did you see Mr. Ireland ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.362) Mrs. Gifford . Upon the 2d of September 78 , I saw Mr. Ireland above a hundred Miles from this Place . (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.363) Mr. Sol. Gen. Where ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.88.364) Mrs. Gifford . At Pancross . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.366) Mr. Sol. Gen. What time of Day was it ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.367) Mrs. Gifford . In the Afternoon about four or five o'clock . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.368) Mr. Sol. Gen. Did he stay there all Night ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.369) Mrs. Gifford . I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} tell indeed . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.370) Mr. At. Gen. Swear Mr. Pendrel . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.371) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.372) Mr. Sol. Gen. Now , my Lord , we are come to the 2d of September in the Evening ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.373) we shall prove where he was that Night and the 3d , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.374) and then we shall return to the 4th of September , when Mrs. Harwell swears he came back to Wolverhampton . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.375) Mr. Hanses . When did you see Mr. Ireland , Mr. Pendrel ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.376) Mr. Pendrel . I saw him upon the 2d of September . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.377) Mr. At. Gen. Where did you see him ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.378) Mr. Pendrel . At Boscobel at my House , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.379) there he lodg'd with me that Night . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.380) Mr. Sol. Gen. In what Year was it ? - (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.381) Mr. Pendrel . In the Year 1678 . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.382) Mr. At. Gen. Was it the September before the Plot , and before Mr. Ireland was executed ? - (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.383) Mr. Pendrel . Yes , my Lord , it was . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.384) L.C.J. Did you know him before ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.385) Mr. Pendrel . No , I did never see him before , as I know of . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.386) L.C.J. How long did he stay there ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.387) Mr. Pendrel . He staid that Night and the next Day all day , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.388) and went away the 4th of September to Black-Ladies . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.389) Mr. Sol. Gen. Whose House is that ? - (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.390) Mr. Pendrel . It is Mr. John Gifford 's . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.391) L.C.J. You say you live at Boscobel ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.392) Did you hear any thing of a Letter came to your House for Mr. Ireland ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.393) Mr. Pendrel . Not that I know of , my Lord , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.394) there was not any that I remember . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.395) Mr. At. Gen. Then swear Mrs. Pendrel . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.396) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.397) Mr. Sol. Gen. Pray , Mistress , will you give an Account where you saw Mr. Ireland ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.398) Mrs. Pendrel . I saw him at Boscobel , at the Royal Oak ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.399) he came there the 2d Day of September . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.400) Mr. Sol. Gen. Can you tell what Year it was ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.401) Mrs. Pendrel . It was the first Beginning of the Plot . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.402) Mr. Sol. Gen. How long did he stay there ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.403) Mrs. Pendrel . He staid Tuesday , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.404) and Wednesday he went to Black-Ladies , and so away to Wolverhampton . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.405) Mr. Sol. Gen. We have but one Witness more , my Lord , for Wednesday the 4th of September , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.406) and then we have done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.407) Swear Mr. Charles Gifford . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.408) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.409) When did you see Mr. Ireland ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.410) Mr. C. Gifford . May it please your Lordship , I saw Mr. Ireland at my Father's House at Black-Ladies - (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.411) Oates . My Lord , I would ask Mrs. Pendrel a Question before she goes : Whether she was not a Witness at the five Jesuits Trial {COM:sic_punctuation} ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.412) Mrs. Pendrel . I was in Court , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.413) but they would not suffer me to swear . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.414) Oates . Did she not give Evidence there ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.415) L.C.J. She was examined , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.416) but she could not be sworn , because she came to testify against the King in a capital Cause . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.417) Mr. At. Gen. Pray , what say you , Mr. Charles Gifford ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.418) Mr. C. Gifford . My Lord , I say I saw Mr. Ireland at my Father's House in Black-Ladies , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.419) and he staid there an Hour and an half , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.420) and went through Chillington , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.421) and said he would go to Wolverhampton . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.422) Mr. At. Gen. What Day of the Month was it ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.423) Mr. C. Gifford . I am morally certain it was the 4th of September , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.424) and so he went to Wolverhampton , as I am informed . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.425) He came to our House to see a Lady that was there . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.426) L.C.J. What Lady was it ? - (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.427) Mr. C. Gifford . It was one Madam Wells . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.428) Mr. At. Gen. Thus , my Lord , we have lodged him the 4th of September at Wolverhampton , when Mrs. Harwell says , he return'd to her ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.429) and so , my Lord , we have given an Account where he was from the 3d of August to the 14th of September . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.430) Mr. Sol. Gen. We have prov'd where he was every Day in that time , but only the 8th of September , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.431) and for that we must leave it to the Jury . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.432) We have proved that he came away from Mrs. Harwell 's the 7th , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.433) and he said he was to go to Tixhall ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.434) and the 9th he did go from Tixhall in Sir John Southcoat 's Company , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.435) and came to London the 14th . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.436) L.C.J. Well , what say you to it , Mr. Oates ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.437) Oates . Has Mr. Attorney done his Evidence , my Lord ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.438) Mr. At. Gen. We shall call no more Witnesses , unless you go about to support your own Credit , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.439) and then we have other Witnesses to call . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.440) Oates . I do not value any Witnesses you can bring against my Credit . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.441) Mr. At. Gen. Well , for the present , we do not design to call any more Witnesses . - (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.442) L.C.J. Then let us hear what you say to it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.443) Oates . My Lord , here is an Indictment against me , which sets forth , that I should swear at Mr. Ireland 's Trial , that Mr. Ireland was in Town the 1st and 2d of September ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.444) and it sets forth , that in truth he was not in Town : (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.445) And likewise it sets forth , that I swore at the Trial of the five Jesuits , that Mr. Ireland took his leave of me and others here in Town at his Lodging in Russel-street , between the 8th and 12th of August : whereas the Perjury there assigned , is this , That he did not take his Leave of me , or any other Person , betwixt the 8th and 12th of August , at his Lodging in Russel-Street . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.446) Now , my Lord , I was not the only Witness of Mr. Ireland 's being in Town in the Month of August , nor the only Witness of his being in Town about that time in September . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.447) My Lord , my Prosecutors have endeavoured to maintain this Charge against me thus : (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.448) The first thing they have gone upon , as far as I can remember in the Indictment , is as to the 1st or 2d of September , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.449) or rather , they have endeavoured to prove both under one . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.450) Now , in answer to all this Evidence , my Lord , the first thing I shall offer to your Lordship's Consideration , and the Consideration of the Jury , is the great Hardship I lie under , after six Years time , to be put to disprove what the Counsel here have now offered against me . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.451) My Lord , I observe first , that this Indictment , which is now upon Trial , is founded upon the Trial of Ireland , which was the 17th of December 1678 , at the Old-Bailey , (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.452) and it is now six Years after that Evidence of mine was delivered . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.453) A second thing is , that the Indictment is found by special Commission , as appears by the Indictment itself . (OATES-E3-P2,4.89.454) Now , I must recommend to the Consideration of your Lordship and this Jury , why the Prosecution of this pretended Perjury has been delay'd so long , when it appears by the Evidence which has been produced , that the Witnesses to prove it were known six Years since , as much as they are now ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.455) and there is no colour of Evidence offered , that any new Fact has been lately discovered which was not then knowne . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.456) There is no Reason , my Lord , that is assigned , or can be assigned for this Delay , but only that the Hardship might be the greater upon me : (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.457) For now it is difficult , if not impossible for me to maintain the Evidence I then gave , so many Persons being since dead , or gone beyond the Seas , (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.458) and many things that were fresh then , are now grown out of Memory ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.459) and I beg your Favour to insist upon this , (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.460) and I think it $can $not {TEXT:cannot} be denied me . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.461) If such a Practice as this be admitted , no Witness is safe in giving his Testimony against any Conspirators whatsoever . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.462) For , my Lord , I must desire leave to offer another thing to your Consideration , before I speak to the particular Evidence , (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.463) and that is this ; That here is nothing but a bare Point of Time upon which this Perjury is assigned ; when the Substance of the Testimony that I gave at the Trials of Mr. Ireland and the rest , about the Popish Plot , is not assigned as any Perjury at all ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.464) it is only a Circumstance of Time and Place . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.465) And , my Lord , I shall offer this to your further Consideration , that Ireland was convicted for a treasonable Resolution to murder the late King , and not for being in Town in August or September 78 , or elsewhere ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.466) and he was not convicted for his being in his Chamber in Russel-street , and taking his leave there in August , which is one matter of the Perjury now assigned . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.467) Next , my Lord , $'t $is {TEXT:'tis} hard and unreasonable to tie up Witnesses that come to discover Plots and Conspiracies , to speak positively as to Circumstance of Time and Place , and every little Punctilio in their Evidence , to bind them up to such Niceties in the delivery of their Testimonies , as to Time and Place . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.468) It is usual to speak with latitude as to such kind of things , (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.469) and $'t $is {TEXT:'tis} probably my Evidence which is now in question , was not that Ireland was the 1st or 2d of September positively here in Town ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.470) but , my Lord , I did I believe give myself a latitude , (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.471) and would not confine myself to either the 1st or 2d , 5th , 6th , 7th , or 8th ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.472) But my Lord , that he was in September there , I am positive . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.473) I must therefore beg your Lordship's and the Court's Opinion , whether that Mr. Foster did prove that I was positive and precise to the Days of the 1st and 2d of September 78 ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.474) L.C.J. In my Opinion it is a plain Evidence that you did swear positively to those two Days ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.475) and you spoke to a Circumstance very material in your Evidence , that either the first or 2d of September you had twenty shillings of him in Town here : (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.476) Now that Circumstance of his Kindness to you , was not a Circumstance of Time or Place . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.477) Oates . Then , my Lord , I shall begin with my Proofs : (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.478) but , my Lord , I desire I may have free Liberty to mind my Business ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.479) for here is a Gentleman behind me that will not let me be at quiet , but is either-4 meddling with me or my papers . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.480) L.C.J. Who is it ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.481) Let me know him , (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.482) and I will take care to make him quiet , or set him farther off . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.483) You , Gentlemen , that are at the Bar should know better , one would think : (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.484) He must have liberty to make his own Defence ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.485) and if he complains and lets me know who meddles with him , they had better do somewhat else . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.486) Oates . My Lord , the first thing that I offer , is , that Ireland was convicted of Treason , (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.487) and for that you have the Record . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.488) L.C.J. It is allowed of all sides , that Ireland was convicted and attainted of Treason . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.489) Oates . Then , my Lord , the principal Defence which , as near as I can remember , Mr. Ireland made at his Trial , was an Endeavour to prove that he was not in Town between the 8th and 12th of August , nor the 1st and 2d Days of September , which are the Points now in Issue ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.490) and he then produced on Mr. Gifford , and his Sister and Mother ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.491) and fifteen or sixteen Witnesses were produced at Mr. Whitebread 's Trial , of which there is another Record , that being six Months after Mr. Ireland was tried : (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.492) There Mr. Whitebread produces several Witnesses , Mr. Gifford , I say , and several others , I think , to the number of sixteen , which were to prove Ireland 's being out of Town in these times that these Witnesses speak of . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.493) Now , my Lord , all those several Witnesses being produced to prove Ireland then out of Town , the very Point that is now in Issue , was then so ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.494) and notwithstanding all those Witnesses , the Jurors who tried Mr. Ireland , and the Jurors who tried Mr. Whitebread and the other four Jesuits , found them guilty ; tho' they endeavour'd with all their force imaginable to oppose my Testimony , (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.495) and it was left to the Consideration of the Jury what their Witnesses had said . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.496) If your Lordship pleases to remember , my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs did observe to the Jury , that the Evidence of the Prisoner at the Bar did consist only in Punctilio's of Time ; which , as near as I can remember what he said , he called a nicety of Time ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.497) and in Whitebread 's Trial he was pleased to call it catching in Point of Time . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.498) And it was observ'd at Ireland 's Trial , that his Defence was so weak , that my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs , upon the Integrity of Bedloe 's Evidence and mine , uses these Words to the Jury tho' he then endeavour'd to do what these Witnesses do now : (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.499) It is most plain the Plot is discovered , and that by these Men , and that it is a Plot , and a villainous one . Which shews not only the Fullness and Satisfactoriness of our Proof that we gave , but does also take notice of the little Shifts and catching Tricks he made use of to prove himself out of Town ; which would not weigh with the Court . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.500) Therefore I observe , it is but the same Objection that then was made , (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.501) and is not a new one now . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.502) And my Lord Chief Justice that then was , speaking of that Proof he brought which the Court heard with patience , but could easily see through the Vanity of it , said , What Arts they have of evading this , I know not ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.503) for as they have turn'd their Learning into Subtilty , so they have their Religion too . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.504) All this is well remembered by those that were by , and heard that Trial : (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.505) And tho' Ireland laboured to disprove me in that Circumstance of Time , yet still the Court did justify the Evidence that Mr. Bedloe and myself had given . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.506) And the same Chief Justice said , I leave it to you to consider , whether you have not as much Evidence from these two Men as can be expected in a Case of this nature ? And whether Mr. Oates be not rather justified by the Testimony offer'd against him , than discredited ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.507) This was after his Plea was debated and considered : (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.508) and I must further observe to your Lordship , that tho' Mr. Ireland by his false Witnesses pressed this matter as far as he could then , and urged the Court to believe it ; yet when the Jury brought in their Verdict and found him guilty , the Chief Justice expressed the Satisfaction of the Court in these Words : (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.509) You have done , Gentlemen , like very good Subjects and very good Christians ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.510) that is to say , like very good Protestants : (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.511) and now much good may their Masses do them . (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.512) This , my Lord , was the Case of Mr. Ireland , at his Trial ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.90.513) and the same Point of his being out of Town was again managed before a second Jury at the Trial of the five Jesuits ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.515) but the Court saw the Design of the Popish Party to blemish the Evidence given of the Plot ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.516) but yet they look'd upon it only as a Trick . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.517) And my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs , in summing up the Evidence at that Trial , says , They fall foul upon Mr. Oates , meaning myself ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.518) he appears to have been their Agent , and whilst so , bad enough . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.519) But if he had not had a mind to become a good Man , he would not have done us that good he has done , in the Discovery of the Design they had engaged him in . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.520) And if your Lordship please to remember , that at that Trial of the five Jesuits , when all Arts were used to prove Ireland out of Town , and me at St. Omers , in the same Charge to the Jury , my Lord Scroggs did take notice that the Jesuits were very exact at catching in a Point of Time ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.521) but now says , that there is a thing that no Man can precisely charge his Memory withal ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.522) and therefore he does there persuade the Jury , that that should not be too strictly the Measure of their Judgments about Truth and Falshood , by the Mistake of seven or eight Days : (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.523) For , said he to the Jury , examine yourselves how often every day you do mistake things that have been transacted half a Year ago , and err in Point of Time , taking one Week for another , and one Month for another ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.524) and therefore you are not to lay too great a Weight upon the Point of Time . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.525) Now , if too great Weight , my Lord , be not to be laid upon a point of Time , then this Charge that is now brought against me is not of weight at all . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.526) And besides , my Lord , this ought to be considered , if this were the great Objection then , and then answered , it ceases to be an Objection now . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.527) And , as the Court did observe at the summing up of the Evidence , that they made their Defence about the Uncertainty of a Point of Time , which was no Defence at all ; so that , my Lord , the whole Course of my Plea is this : $'T $is {TEXT:'Tis} a hard case for a Man , after six Years , to be indicted for a Circumstance of Time . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.528) I will first offer the Testimony of one Witness that is dead , (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.529) and that is Mr. Bedloe , who at his Death confirmed all that he had sworn of the Popish Plot to be true , and affirmed that he had rather spoken less than the Truth , than more ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.530) and for that I desire that my Lord Keeper may be called , who took his dying Examination . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.531) L.C.J. As for that , Mr. Oates , it is a thing very well known to the World , and particularly to a worthy Gentleman that sits by you , Pointing to Mr. North that Mr. Bedloe , when he was sick , did make some such Protestation . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.532) Oates . Then , my Lord , I desire that Mr. Blaney may be sworn , to give an account , what Mr. Bedloe testified at Mr. Ireland 's Trial . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.533) Then Mr. Blaney was sworn . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.534) Oates . Mr. Blaney , pray will you see in your Notes of Ireland 's Trial , whether Mr. Bedloe did not swear that Mr. Ireland was in Town , the latter end of August 78 , or the beginning of September ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.535) Mr. Blaney . Whereabouts in the Trial is it , Sir ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.536) Oates . It is in the printed Trial , folio 41 . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.537) Mr. Blaney . My Lord , I do find these Words in my Notes , that Mr. Bedloe should say , about the latter end of August , or the beginning of September , (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.538) but I believe it was the latter end of August , Mr. Ireland was at Harcourt 's Chamber , (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.539) and being asked the Question by my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs , Whether he said positively , it was the latter end of August ; he said it was in August , (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.540) he would not be positive to a Day , (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.541) but he thought the latter end . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.542) L.C.J. $'T $is {TEXT:'Tis} very well known too , that Bedloe did swear Ireland was in Town the latter end of August , or beginning of September ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.543) and to confirm it upon Mr. Ireland 's Denial , you swore he was in Town the 1st or 2d of September ; and gave you twenty Shillings , (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.544) that was the Occasion of your Oath . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.545) Oates . Then , my Lord , I desire to call some Witnesses to testify to the Deposition that was taken of Mr. Jennison , about Ireland 's being then in Town . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.546) L.C.J. When was that Deposition taken , and before whom ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.547) Oates . It was taken in the Year 79 , by Sir Edmund Warcup . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.548) L.C.J. But we $can $not {TEXT:cannot} admit that in Evidence , unless the King's Counsel will consent . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.549) Oates . My Lord , I will then produce what he swore at another Trial . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.550) L.C.J. Why , where is he ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.551) Is he dead ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.552) Oates . My Lord , it has cost a great deal of Money to search him out ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.553) but I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} any where meet with him , (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.554) and that makes my Case so much harder that I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} , when I have done all that Man can do to get my Witnesses together . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.555) I sent in the depth of Winter for him , when I thought my Trial would have come on before ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.556) but I could never hear of him . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.557) L.C.J. We $can $not {TEXT:cannot} help that . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.558) Oates . Will what he said at any other Trial be Evidence here ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.559) L.C.J. Look you , though in strictness , unless the Party be dead , we do not use to admit of any such Evidence ; yet if you can prove any thing he swore at another Trial , we will indulge you so far . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.560) Oates . Have you the record of Sir George Wakeman 's Trial there , Sir Samuel Astry ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.561) Mr. At. Gen. Here it is ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.562) if Mr. Oates have any use for it , we will lend it to him . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.563) L.C.J. Put it in ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.564) and now prove what you can , what Jennison swore at that Trial . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.565) Oates . Mr. Blaney , have you your Notes of Sir George Wakeman 's Trial here ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.566) Mr. Blaney . No , Sir , the Ticket of your Subpoena did only mention Ireland , Whitebread , and Langhorn 's Trials . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.567) But I did formerly upon another Occasion look for the Trial of Sir George Wakeman , (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.568) but could not find it among all my Notes . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.569) Oates . Sir , can you remember then what Jennison swore at that Trial , about Ireland 's being here in Town ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.570) Mr. Blaney . Truly , my Lord , I can never trust my Memory at all when I take Notes ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.571) and it is now so long since that Trial , that I dare not undertake to say I remember any Particulars of it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.572) L.C.J. He says it is so long since , that he $can $not {TEXT:cannot} remember any thing . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.573) But there is Sir Edmund Warcup now ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.574) Is he sworn ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.575) Cryer . Yes , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.576) L.C.J. What do you ask him then ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.577) Oates . I would desire to examine Sir Edmund Warcup , my Lord , about the Deposition of Jennison that he took . (OATES-E3-P2,4.91.578) L.C.J. But we tell you that $can $not {TEXT:cannot} be admitted as Evidence , without they will consent to it on the other side . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.580) Oates . My Lord , he proves Mr. Ireland here the 19th of August , (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.581) and that contradicts these Witnesses . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.582) L.C.J. If they will admit it , well and good ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.583) else we $can $not {TEXT:cannot} do it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.584) Mr. At. Gen. My Lord , we will be so fair with Mr. Oates , if he will admit Mr. Jennison 's Letter , that is under his hand , wherein he does own that he was mistaken in his whole Evidence about that matter , we will consent his Deposition to be read . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.585) Mr. Just. Withins . If he will not consent to that , there 's no reason you should consent to the other , Mr. Attorney . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.586) L.C.J. Look you , Mr. Oates , Mr. Attorney makes you this Offer ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.587) you desire to have Mr. Jennison 's Depositions read , which $can $not {TEXT:cannot} be done without their consent ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.588) they tell you they will consent , if you will let them prove what he has own'd since about that Business . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.589) Oates . My Lord , I will consent with all my heart ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.590) let them read any Letter under his hand . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.591) L.C.J. Well , do it on both sides by Consent ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.592) and now , Mr. Oates , do you produce his Examination . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.593) Oates . Pray , Sir Edmund Warcup , will you please to give the Court an Account what Deposition Mr. Jennison made before you , about Ireland 's being in Town in August 78 ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.594) Sir Edmund Warcup . If my Lord commands me , I will . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.595) L.C.J. Ay , you must answer his Question . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.596) Sir Edmund Warcup . This Mr. Jennison did make one Information before me , (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.597) and according to the Duty that was incumbent upon me , I deliver'd it to the King and Council , (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.598) and there it has lain ever since ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.599) for me to remember the Particulars of it , is impossible . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.600) L.C.J. Have you his Examination here , Mr. Oates ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.601) If you have , shew it him . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.602) Sir Edmund Warcup . If I see my Hand to it , attesting it was sworn before me , I can say somewhat to it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.603) Oates . My Lord , he says he deliver'd it in to the Council ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.604) but it is printed . - (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.605) L.C.J. That is no Evidence , Man . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.606) Sir Edmund Warcup . I can say nothing to it , unless I saw it under my own hand . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.607) Oates . That is impossible for me to have , my Lord . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.608) L.C.J. I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} tell how to help it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.609) Sir Edmund Warcup . You have no more to say to me , Sir , have you ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.610) Oates . No , Sir , I have not . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.611) Pray call Sarah Batten . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.612) Mr. At. Gen. Is that the same that was Sarah Paine ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.613) Oates . I think so , Sir ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.614) I am not sure it is she , till she come hither . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.615) Cryer . Here is Sarah Batten . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.616) Oates . Pray swear her , (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.617) and call Sir Thomas Doleman . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.618) Which was done . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.619) But Sir Thomas Doleman did not appear . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.620) Oates . Pray was not your name Sarah Paine ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.621) Batten . My Lord , I desire my Charges before I speak . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.622) L.C.J. What is your Name , good Woman ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.623) Batten . My name is Sarah Batty . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.624) Oates . Was not your Name Sarah Paine , once ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.625) Batty . No , my Maiden-Name was Sarah Edmunds . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.626) Oates . Was not you a Witness at the Trial of Mr. Ireland ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.627) Batty . No , Sir . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.628) Oates . Did not you live with my Lord Arlington ? - (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.629) Batty . No , Sir . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.630) Oates . Then I have been at all this Charge for nothing . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.631) Are you sure your Name was not Sarah Paine ? - (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.632) Batty . No , indeed , Sir . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.633) Oates . They told me that she liv'd at Uxbridge , (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.634) and thither I sent . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.635) Batty . I do live at Uxbridge , Sir . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.636) Oates . Upon your Oath , were you a Witness at any of the other Trials , or not ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.637) Batty . No , my Lord , I was not . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.638) Oates . Then I have nothing to say to her . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.639) L.C.J. What other Witnesses have you to call ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.640) Oates . We have laboured all we could to find her out , and searched for her with all the care imaginable ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.641) and here we thought we had had her , (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.642) but it seems it is not she . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.643) L.C.J. We $can $not {TEXT:cannot} help it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.644) Batten . I hope , my Lord , you will consider my Charges in coming up hither . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.645) Oates . I will take care of thee , Sweet-heart . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.646) L.C.J. Who do you call next ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.647) Oates . Pray call Mr. Charles Clare . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.648) Cryer . He is not here . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.649) Oates . Pray call Mr. Percival . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.650) My Lord , I desire Mr. Blaney may give an account what she swore about Ireland 's being in Town , seeing I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} have her here . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.651) L.C.J. That we $can $not {TEXT:cannot} do neither , without Mr. Attorney will consent : (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.652) For this , as well as the other , is an extraordinary thing . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.653) Oates . You see by my bringing this Witness , my Lord , that I have done what I could to find her out . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.654) L.C.J. What say you , Mr. Attorney , (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.655) will you consent ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.656) Mr. At. Gen. No , my Lord , it is so irregular , that we $can $not {TEXT:cannot} consent to it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.657) Oates . Pray call Mr. Percival and Mr. Vaughan . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.658) Cryer . They do neither of them appear . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.659) Oates . Then I must lose the benefit of her Testimony . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.660) L.C.J. Have you done ? (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.661) Oates . No , my Lord , I will have done immediately . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.662) L.C.J. Take your own Time . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.663) Oates . I desire Sir Michael Wharton may be call'd . - (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.664) Cryer . He is not here . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.665) Oates . Pray call Mr. Charles Chetwind . - (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.666) Cryer . He is not here . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.667) Oates . Pray call Mr. Robert Bowes . - (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.668) Cryer . He is not here . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.669) Oates . Pray call Mr. John Savile . - (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.670) Cryer . He is not here . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.671) Oates . My Lord , I have served all these with $Subpoena's {COM:font_change_before_apostrophe_in_original} ; (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.672) and if they will not come , I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} help it . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.673) L.C.J. Nor we neither . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.674) Oates . Mr. Jennison was used as a Witness in the Trial of Sir George Wakeman , (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.675) and so was Mr. Bowes , and Mr. Burnet , who was produced to prove the Circumstance of Mr. Jennison 's Evidence : (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.676) But , my Lord , since I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} have the benefit of his Evidence , nor of Sarah Paine 's , I must only sum up all I have to say in two or three Words . (OATES-E3-P2,4.92.677)