Duke . This is not true , saving that indeed Advice was broken to me of conveying her away at a Window , at a Gallery's-end , in one of my Lord of Shrewsbury 's Houses , of the which Window the Bishop of Rosse had taken a measure ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.2) but this Device was overthrown at such time as it was told me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.3) As for that which Barker hath here confess'd , it is utterly false . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.4) Serj. Now shall you hear the Duke's own Confession . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.5) Here was read the Duke's Examination , 13 Octobris . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.6) Serj. Besides this , the Duke being in Prison in the Tower , made a Submission to the Queen's Majesty , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.7) confess'd his Error in dealing with the Scotish Queen , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.8) and promis'd , upon his Faith and Allegiance , never to deal with that Marriage , nor with any other Matter touching the Scotish Queen . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.9) Duke I confess I did so . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.10) Serj. Before his subscribing his said Submission , he first made the Scotish Queen privy to it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.11) and sent her a Double of it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.12) Duke . I sent it to the Bishop of Rosse . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.13) Serj. All is one . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.14) Duke . I confess it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.15) Serj. What should move my Lord of Norfolk now so earnestly still to pursue this Marriage ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.16) You see he liked not the Person , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.17) she was not of good Fame , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.18) he so signify'd to the Queen , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.19) he so reported to Bannister . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.20) The Kingdom of Scotland he esteem'd not , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.21) and also it was out of her Possession , in the hands of the King her Son , by her own Dimission ratify'd by Parliament . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.22) Forsooth he had an old blind Prophecy lying by him : In exaltatione Lunae Leo succumbet , & Leo cum Leone conjungetur , & catuli eorum regnabunt ; which belike is thus to be expounded , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.23) At the Exaltation of the Moon which was the Rising of the Earl of Northumberland , that giveth the Moon the Lion which is the Queen's Majesty shall be overthrown ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.24) then shall the Lion be join'd with a Lion which is the Duke of Norfolk with the Scotish Queen , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.25) for they both bear Lions in their Arms (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.26) and their Whelps shall reign (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.27) that is , their Posterity shall have the Kingdom . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.28) Duke . I do not remember any such Prophecy . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.29) Serj. It was in your own keeping . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.30) Duke . What should I do with it ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.31) Serj. Such blind Prophecies have oft deceiv'd Noblemen . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.32) Duke . This is nothing to the purpose ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.33) I kept it not to any such end . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.34) Serj. You utter'd it to your Servant Hickford . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.35) Here was produced and read Hickford 's Testimony . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.36) Duke . A Toy ! (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.37) You see I call it a foolish Prophecy . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.38) Serj. Where had you it ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.39) Duke . I remember it not . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.40) Serj. Hitherto have you heard the Evidence to prove the Duke's Imagination , Compassing , and Conspiracy , to deprive the Queen's Majesty of the Crown and her Royal Estate , and so to bring her Highness to Death and Destruction . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.41) For proving this his Intent , you have heard those Matters prov'd , his Practice to join himself in Marriage with the Scotish Queen , whom he then well knew falsely to claim and pretend Title to the present possession of the Crown of England : also his prosecuting the same Marriage without the Queen's Majesty's Knowledge , against her Highness's express Commandment upon his Allegiance , against his Faith , Promise , and Submission ; yea , and to pursue that with force , and to use the Advice and Strength of his Friends , to maintain the same force against the Queen ; his hearkening to blind Prophecies , Money by him lent to the Scotish Queen , and against the Queen his Sovereign Lady . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.42) If then his Purpoose so were to pursue it with force , it must needs follow , that the same must be of Intent , Imagination , and Compassing , to deprive and depose the Queen's Majesty from her Crown , Royal Estate , and Dignity , and to advance and maintain that false and usurp'd Title of the Scotish Queen unto the present possession of the Crown of England , and so consequently , for maintenance of his Imagination and Purpose , to compass the Queen's Majesty's Death and Destruction . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.43) Now shall you further hear Proof of his own words , declaring the same intent to pursue the Marriage by force , and rather to lose his Life than give it over . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.44) Cavendish's Deposition (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.46) That at his several Journies unto the Places of the Queen of Scots Abode , the Duke procur'd him to labour the Cause of his Marriage with her with all diligence . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.48) Item , That her Majesty being at Southampton , Richard Candish , a certain Night walking in his Chamber , and persuading him by all means to labour for the Queen's Favour concerning that Marriage ; the Duke affirm'd that before he lost that Marriage he would lose his Life : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.49) and said moreover , that if ever he handled thing wisely or cunningly , I would say it was the Matter of that Marriage , if I knew it from the beginning . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.50) Item , That the Monday at night , after the Duke's Departure from Southampton , Richard Candish being at Hayward-House with him , in the Company of the Lord Lumley , the Duke and the said Lord Lumley talking secretly together , suddenly the Duke brake out into this Speech : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.51) Candish , quoth he , is able to accuse me of no disloyal Practices . Whereat the Lord Lumley , as it were wondering , Can he not indeed , quoth he ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.52) No indeed , quoth the Duke ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,1,100.53) and turning to Candish , said , Candish , I in this Case defy thee , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.54) say thy worst . To which Candish answer'd , Besides the Practice of this Marriage , I truly can accuse you of none . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.55) Item , The Duke , at another time , in the said House , ask'd Candish , If God take away the Queen's Majesty , whether he could assure him of his Brother Candish , and procure his said Brother to promise unto him Sir Robert Ningfield ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.56) Item , At his last being at Remming-Hall , among many others talking , he had this Speech ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.57) Candish quoth he nothing will undo us but the Rising of the Northern Lords . To whom I answered , God forbid that any such thing should be , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.58) for it will undo us all ; whereat he replying , said , I fear they will rise . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.59) Duke . The Duke looking upon Cavendish with a scornful and smiling Countenance , said , You are an honest Man ! (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.60) That which he saith of the Talk between him and me at Southampton , is utterly false : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.61) At that time you were most earnest on my part , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.62) and came to me as for Succour , for that as you said your Cousin Christmas was fallen out with you . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.63) When we rode to my Lord of Pembroke 's , you came to me (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.64) and told me , my Lord Burleigh findeth me well , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.65) I will ride with him and find his Humour , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.66) and I will face that Fellow thorowly ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.67) so from Salisbury you said you would ride to Leicester , and so home with my Lord Burleigh , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.68) and you doubted not to bring me such word from him as should satisfy me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.69) You told me how my Lord of Leicester was firm , and Sir Nicholas Throckmorton my sure Friend ; and that they would both join to deal with the Queen for me ; and how Sir Nicholas Throckmorton sent me word , That he doubted not the Queen would take order to my Contentation at her next Coming to a staid House . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.70) Then came you to London , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.71) and tho' I had no great Liking of you , yet because you were loth to lie at Arundel 's , and were somewhat ill at ease , I let you lie in my House . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.72) I never made great account of you ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.73) my Lord of Leicester made us first acquainted , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.74) your Brother you know was not my Friend . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.75) I then took you as I now find you . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.76) While you could hold on , you shew'd your Letters that you did write on my behalf ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.77) then you came to me (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.78) and said , you had need , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.79) and borrowed Money of me ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.80) I had none at that time , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.81) but I sent it you by Bowes . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.82) I was warned by divers of my Friends to take heed of you ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.83) you dealt with Dier and with Straunge very maliciously . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.84) As for the Speech at Remming-Hall , that you speak of me , it is untrue ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.85) I dealt not with you there about any such matter ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.86) I left you at London , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.87) I looked not for you ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.88) when you came , I was glad to be rid of you ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.89) you said you were going to Norwich , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.90) and I was glad you were going , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.91) and willed you to look at my House at Norwich , and tell me how you liked it : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.92) Out of the North I heard nothing in six Weeks before . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.93) You suddenly slipped away from me , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.94) and then I came up to London ward ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.95) you are an honest Man , indeed ! (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.96) It is all false that he hath said . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.97) Then Cavendish began to report and justify what he had said , and to put the Duke in remembrance , when the Duke gave him reproachful words of Discredit . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.98) Serj. He is sworn , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.99) there needeth no more proving ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.100) you sent Havers to the Earl of Westmoreland . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.101) Then was alledged the Examination of one Haveling touching Havers , whom the Duke sent to the Earl of Northumberland , with this Message , That if the two Earls should rise , he were undone . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.102) Duke . This may be seen of two years old , and by me fully delivered and answered . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.103) Then was read the Confession of Havers . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.104) Then was alledged a Letter of the Scottish Queen's in Cipher to the Duke , containing , that the Lord of Shrewsbury had told her , that the Earl of Northumberland was deliver'd to the Earl of Sussex ; for which she was very sorrowful three days together , for fear of cumbring of Friend if he were taken . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.105) Serj. What Friends was she so careful for , that she wrote to the Duke , unless she thought it should light upon the Duke himself ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.106) Duke . That Letter never came to my hands . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.107) Serj. It was found in the Bag which you willed to be burned . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.108) Then the said Letter was read . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.109) Duke . All this is nothing to me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.110) Serj. This proveth in you a Practice to the Rebellion ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.111) for all her Sorrow of the yielding of the Earl of Northumberland was , for fear he should bewray and cumber her Friends . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.112) Duke . That toucheth not me ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.113) for I am sure the Earl of Northumberland hath been sought for me , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.114) and yet he $can $not {TEXT:cannot} accuse me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.115) Serj. Had it not concerned you , it had not been written to you . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.116) Duke . Some Letters never came to my hands : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.117) sometime they came to the Bishop of Rosse , sometime to Bannister , sometime not all deciphered ; as Straunge and Bowes , and other that have been Messengers for me , can tell . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.118) Here Mr. Attorney began to prosecute the second part , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.119) and spake first to this effect . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.120) Attorney . Now you have heard enough of the first matter . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.121) In this Indictment are contained three principal Treasons , whereof the first is imagining and conspiring the Deprivation , Death , and Destruction of the Queen's Majesty : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.122) for proof hereof , it hath been truly said , That to imagine , compass , or procure the Deposing or Death of the Prince , is High-Treason by the Statute of 25 Edward III . and at the Common-Law ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.123) for the Statute is but a Declaration what was Treason at Common Law : which Imagination , when it appeareth by Overt-fact , must needs be judged Treason ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.124) for Overt-fact is but a shewing of a Man's mind , which when a Man by outward Speech or Deed hath uttered , it must needs be judged that so was his meaning ; which must be gathered by such means , as it may be made to appear . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.125) For no Traitor is so bold , to say expresly , he will depose or kill the King ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.126) but often it hath been seen , that they go about indirectly , and by means that tend to that End : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.127) and therefore he that goeth about to stir the People to Rebellion , or to levy War within the Realm , to assail or withstand the Prince by Force , is taken to seek the Death of the Prince . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.128) Now therefore to prove that the Duke of Norfolk hath imagined and compassed the Deposing and Death of the Queen's Majesty , this hath been shewed you : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.129) first , by secret and indirect means , he sought to join himself in Marriage with the Scottish Queen , who pretendeth Title to the Queen's Crown . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.130) This he did without the Queen's Majesty's privity , against her Highness's express Commandment upon his Allegiance , against his own Promise and Submission . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.131) First , being at York , a Commissioner appointed by the Queen , contrary to his Oath and Charge , he dealt undirectly and partially , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.132) and play'd an untrue part with the Queen ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.133) he secretly practised for the Marriage . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,101.134) This being objected against him , he hath denied it : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.136) you have heard it testified by three Witnesses , the Earl of Murray , Ledington , and the Bishop of Rosse . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.137) So it appeareth , that all that Practice and indirect Dealing was to this end , to compasse the Deprivation and Death of the Queen's Majesty ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.138) for he well knew that the Scottish Queen made Title to the present Possession of the Crown of England ; that she denyed the Queen's Majesty to be lawful Queen of this Realm ; that she usurped the Royal Style ; that she quartered the Arms of England without any difference : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.139) all this he knew , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.140) he was of the Queen's Majesty's Privy Council at the same time ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.141) he knew that she made no Renunciation of her unjust Claim , tho' it were required of her . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.142) It was also one Article in the Commission where he himself was Commissioner , To require the Recognition of her Error , and of the Queen's Majesty's present Right : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.143) he knew well it was not done . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.144) If the Scottish Queen claimed such present Title , then was she no Friend to the Queen's Majesty , but a Seeker of her Highness's Overthrow and Destruction : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.145) and yet the Duke of Norfolk knowing this , practised to compass this Marriage . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.146) Wherefore , I pray you , sought he that Marriage ; yea , and sought it as he meant to atchieve it with Force ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.147) It was not in respect of her Person , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.148) for he knew her not ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.149) it could not be for any good Report of her virtuous Conditions , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.150) for he had an evil Opinion of her : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.151) he did by his writing certify against her , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.152) he declared to Bannister that he thought very ill of her . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.153) It was not for her Title to the Kingdom of Scotland , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.154) for neither was she possessed of it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.155) neither did he esteem it though she had it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.156) Wherefore sought he her then ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.157) Surely in respect of that unjust Claim and Title that she pretended to the present Possession of the Crown of England ; which Title $can $not {TEXT:cannot} be maintained without evident purpose to depose the Queen's Majesty , and to bring her to Death and Destruction , which is plain Treason by the Statute of 25 Edward III . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.158) for no more can England bear two Queens , than the World can bear two Suns . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.159) And how should we have maintained it , but with Force ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.160) And how could that have been , without depriving of the Queen's Majesty from the Royal Estate ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.161) And could that have been done , without compassing her Highness's Death and Destruction ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.162) for the Jealousy of an Usurper $can $not {TEXT:cannot} suffer the just Prince to live . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.163) This your Honours are to search and consider , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.164) and to your Judgments we refer it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.165) Now my Lord of Norfolk 's chief and only Answer is but his bare Denial , which is no sufficient Answer ; specially sith he himself hath fallen into so great discredit , by doing against his Word , his Hand , his Oath . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.166) He promised , being commanded upon his Allegiance , never to deal in that matter ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.167) he promised , by his Submission under his own Hand , utterly to forsake it , and to deal no more with the Scottish Queen for that Marriage , nor any other matter : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.168) He promised by Oath specially taken when he was Commissioner for hearing the matter at York , to do therein directly and indifferently without partiality . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.169) All these Oaths and Promises he hath broken , beside the Oath of a Counsellor which he hath also broken , in disclosing the Queen's Secrets , and in secret practising against her express Commandment . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.170) Now also , since he was last apprehended and committed , he hath denyed certain things , which he hath afterward , being constrained with strength of proof , confessed ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.171) yea , he hath denyed those things upon his Oath , which he hath afterward granted to be true : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.172) so is he not to be believed upon his Word , if his own Word discredit him , how great soever he be in Degree . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.173) Duke . Upon the Statute of 25 Edward III. he inferreth , that it is Treason to imagine or compass the Deprivation and Death of the Queen's Majesty ; as the Lord forbid , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.174) and I pray God I may sooner be buried in the Earth , than I should seek or attempt any thing to the Destruction of her Majesty's Person . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.175) There is a Maxim in Law , that penal Statutes must be construed strictly , and no penal Statute ought to be extended further than the very words : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.176) Now in all that my Accusers have deposed or said against me , how false soever it be , there is not one of them that say I went about any hurt to her Majesty's Person , or that I levied or practised to levy any Power against her , or to do any of those things that are contained for Treasons within the words of the Statute . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.177) Is the Bishop of Rosse a sufficient Witness against me ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.178) He is a Stranger and a Scot ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.179) a Stranger can be no sufficient Witness , let alone a Scot : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.180) for whereas when there is Peace between the Queen's Majesty and a foreign Realm , the People of that foreign Realm may freely come and traffick in this Realm ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.181) yet tho' there be a Peace between England and Scotland , if a Scot come into England without a Passport , he may be a lawful Prisoner . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.182) Again , I $can $not {TEXT:cannot} tell what he may for fear . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.183) Bracton saith , That Witnesses must be Liberi Homines , Free Men , full Age , Honest , and of Good Report ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.184) the Bishop of Rosse is none such . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.185) So is nothing proved of any Overt-fact against me , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.186) neither am I accused by any but the Bishop of Rosse , who can be no sufficient Witness against me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.187) What care I what Hamlin says ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.188) It toucheth me not . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.189) As for Havers , I never sent him with any such Message : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.190) indeed I asked him what Company he found with my Brother of Westmoreland . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.191) But as for my Lord of Northumberland , I sent not to him . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.192) If I might have brought forth my Proofs , I could have brought forth Proofs of good fame , that I sent no such Message ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.193) I could have proved it by Confessions , and not by Hearsay . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.194) So is only the Bishop of Rosse Witness against me , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.195) and what he is , all you perceive . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.196) I never heard of the Rebellion , till Sir Henry Nevill told me of it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.197) If I had had such a mind when I was in Norfolk , I needed not to have come hither ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.198) I could have made a shift well enough . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.199) If I had intended any such Rebellion or Treason , I would not have put my Lord of Northumberland in trust withal , nor yet my Brother of Westmoreland , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.200) nor would have come hither to put my Head in the Halter in the Tower : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.201) but being as I was , in such place where I might have shifted , I would have kept me from coming here well enough . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.202) If Fear had moved me , and that I doubted of mine own Case , I could easily have avoided . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.203) So , I say , to prove me guilty of Treason , you must shew some Overt-fact that I have done against her Majesty's Person : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.204) And to the Witnesses , I think I have said sufficiently . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.205) As touching my dealing with the Scottish Queen , so far as I dealt without compass of Treason , this I say for my meaner Faults , inferior to Treason , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.206) I have with Repentance and Humility submitted my self to the Queen's Majesty , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.207) I beseech you confound not those with this Case : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.208) but in my dealing with her about Marriage , I pray you draw it not to such Intention , to advance her Title against the Queen ; because , tho' she once made such Claim , yet considering what Amity hath since been between the Queen and her , to make her now an Enemy , is hard ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,102.209) and surely to marry her , tho' I treated of it , I never concluded , minded , nor intended . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.210) Where $it $'s {TEXT:it's} said I was privy to the Device of her taking away , I utterly deny it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.211) If I had been so , I would not have been against her , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.212) nor would have certified against her ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.213) I ever advised her to submit her self to the Queen's Majesty : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.214) but when no Overt-Fact of Treason can be proved against me , to bring me in thus by Arguments and Circumstances , I think it very hard . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.215) If I should have stolen her away , I could not do it alone : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.216) was I so destitute of Friends , that I could not make any Man privy to it ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.217) And who is there that accuseth me of it , that may spend five Marks a year ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.218) Now sith nothing is proved against me by any Witness sufficient , I beseech you consider favourably of me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.219) Indeed my Brother of Westmoreland sent me his Man with Recommendations ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.220) and I sent him , by his Man , a Ring which my Sister had sent me before ; and also Havers with this Message , Commend me to my Brother of Westmoreland , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.221) and tell him that I am well , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.222) mine Innocency shall deliver me : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.223) but nothing touching any Rising at all . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.224) If ever I were privy to that Rebellion , then condemn me of all the Treasons that you lay against me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.225) Attorney . My Lord and I are now at issue upon this point ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.226) I affirm it with Proofs , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.227) and his Lordship barely denieth it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.228) If his Intent were to compass the Marriage , knowing her to pretend Title of the present Possession of the Crown ; then must this grow to an Imagining to depose the Queen , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.229) and then it is Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.230) An Overt-fact is a Declaration of the Mind ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.231) Letters , Tokens , Speeches , Messages , and such like , be Overt-facts . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.232) Now if you had married her , you must have maintained her pretended Title , which you could not have done without manifest Purpose and Compassing to depose the Queen , and to bring her to Death , which is High-Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.233) Now beside , there is one other Fact , which I will give you in Evidence ; which most evidently proveth the Duke of Norfolk 's Imagination and Compassing to depose and destroy the Queen . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.234) It is well known that Pius V. the Bishop of Rome , is the Queen's Majesty's notorious Enemy , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.235) he hath been so published ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.236) he hath so shewed himself in his proceedings ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.237) he hath shewed it in his Bulls , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.238) they have been brought into this Realm , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.239) and some have suffered for them . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.240) The Duke of Norfolk knowing it to be so , hath practised with his Factor , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.241) hath sent unto the Pope for Aid and Force against the Queen : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.242) he conferred with one Rodolph a Merchant Stranger , to go over the Sea to the Duke of Alva , and to the Pope , in the Name of the Scotish Queen and the Duke of Norfolk , to procure Power to invade this Realm , for the Advancement of the Scotish Queen's false Title to the Crown of this Realm of England ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.243) and in the mean time , the Duke promised to move her Friends to levy such Power as they were able , to assist the Strangers when they came in . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.244) If this be proved unto you , then is it flat Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.245) To use Force against her Majesty in her own Realm , must needs be done with intent to depose her , which Force she must needs resist ; which if she be not able to do , then followeth her Death and Destruction . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.246) My Lords , here goeth still all to one manner of purpose , his own bare denial , and allowing of no sufficient Witness ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.247) but here God himself shall be Witness : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.248) this is a matter opened by God himself . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.249) It was known , that a Treason was in hand ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.250) many Searches were made to understand it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.251) no Man could by any Travel find it out , till God himself opened it ; so as the Saying is fulfilled , What is done in secret shall be made open . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.252) The Treasons my Lords of the Council knew of ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.253) it appeared in April last , that such a Treason was ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.254) but whom it toucheth was not known to them , no not to him that opened it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.255) So as God hath opened it , to affirm these mean Men to be of credit . The Treason being known to the Privy-Council half a year together , yet could they not understand the Party , till God disclosed it by marvellous chance . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.256) In August last there was six hundred Pound of Money prepared to be sent with Letters into Scotland to the Queen's Enemies , for their Relief and Maintenance , and by the Duke of Norfolk 's appointment to be conveyed to his Man Bannister , and so into Scotland . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.257) This Money was delivered to one Browne of Shrewsbury , by one of the Duke's Servants , one Hickford ; who said to Browne , Here is l . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.258) I pray you help that it be conveyed to Mr. Bannister's Dwelling near Shrewsbury . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.259) Browne having received the Money , tho' the Bulk was somewhat like the proportion of l. in Silver , yet the Weight , by reason it was Gold , made him suspect it : whereupon he went to one of the Queen's Privy-Council , and disclosed his Suspicion , that so he might learn what he carried . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.260) This Bag being opened , there was found l. in Gold , and certain Letters withal , to the Queen's Enemies , and to Bannister : Whereupon the Duke's Man , that sent the Money , was apprehended ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.261) and then , by God's good Providence , was it found that this Treason touched the Duke of Norfolk , under Name and Cipher of Quarante , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.262) and another Nobleman was signified by the Cipher of 3 Trente . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.263) Then fell out new Matters : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.264) Certain of the Duke's Servants examined , whether they knew of any Cipher used to any Man by the Name Quarante , they confessed that Quarante was the Duke of Norfolk ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.265) they were kept in several Places , the Bishop also a Prisoner in a place several from them all , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.266) and yet they all agreed in one . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.267) So God's Work hath enforced their Credit by their Agreement , being severally kept . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.268) Thus came it to light by God's own Work . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.269) Now see what the Cause was : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.270) The great Treason was contained in Letters written in Cipher , to one signified by the Number Quarante ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.271) this Quarante was for the Duke , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.272) and so the Duke confesseth . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.273) What Cause had they to suspect him ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.274) Letters from Rodolph made mention of great Treason , and of Provision of Men from beyond the Seas , to invade this Realm , according to his Order and Request , who was meant by Quarante . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.275) If then we shall prove unto you that Rodolph had this Message and Commission from the Scotish Queen and the Duke of Norfolk , to treat with the Pope , King Philip and the Duke of Alva , for the bringing in of ten thousand Men to invade England , and to make War against the Queen in her own Realm ; there must needs be compassing to depose the Queen , and to bring her to Death , and for High-Treason : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.276) For he that will levy Force to invade or make War in a Prince's Realm , and that in Maintenance of a Title to the present enjoying of the Crown , doth what he can to depose the Prince , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.277) and consequently also doth what he can to destroy the Prince . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,103.278) Now to prove that the Duke of Norfolk dealt in this manner , sent this Message , and practised to bring in this Force of Strangers , and to levy War against the Queen within the Realm , it shall be good first to shew what manner of Man this Rodolph was : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.279) He was one that lived divers Years here in this Realm , a notable Traitor and Enemy to the Queen and Realm of England , and of long time the Pope's Factor . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.280) In the Duke's first Trouble , this Rodolph was suspected of such Practices , and therefore by the Council committed to the Custody of Mr. Walsingham till October was Twelve-month ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.281) and for that no evident Matter appeared , he was delivered again in the November following : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.282) So soon as he was delivered , he by and by opened to the Bishop of Rosse , That he was Factor for the Pope ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.283) he shewed him his Commission , and sundry Letters written to him by the Pope's Nuncio in France , about Matters of the Practice a long time . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.284) This Rodolph was well known to the Scotish Queen , the Pope himself and his Nuncio recommending him to the Scotish Queen : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.285) The Duke was made privy of it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.286) and made him privy to his dealings , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.287) and kept it secret from the Queen and her Council . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.288) When the Bull was brought over , that Felton died for , this Rodolph had six Copies of it , and dispersed them ; whereof he gave one to the Bishop of Rosse , one other to the Spanish Embassador , and the third to the French Embassador , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.289) and the rest we know not what he did with them . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.290) Now the Duke knowing him to be such a one , he was a fit Man to deal with . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.291) That he was such a one , and that the Duke well knew it , and sent him in Message to the Duke of Alva , and to the Pope , you shall see plainly proved . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.292) Then what his Message was , you shall see also disclosed , and how things hidden will , by God's Providence , come to light . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.293) The Letters were written in Cipher , and decipher'd , and the Cipher hid in the Tiles , and found by chance ; so as it may appear God's own Work to open these Treasons . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.294) Here the Duke took exception to his saying , that the Cipher was found in the Tiles ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.295) and said , it was not the Cipher that was found there , but the Alphabet : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.296) so the Duke always in his Speech called the Letters or Matter written in strange Characters , the Cipher ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.297) and the Paper of the Characters themselves he called the Alphabet , which Mr. Attorney usually called the Cipher . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.298) Then was read the Bishop of Rosse 's confession the 3d of November , to the 5th Article . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.299) Also Rosse 's Confession ad 7 Artic. litera 6. (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.300) Also his Confession the last of October , Article 23 . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.301) All this the Duke denied , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.302) and said , I never saw any Letters from the Pope , but one , which I will speak of anon . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.303) Then was read the Bishop of Rosse to the 6th , 7th , and 8th , making mention of a Pacquet , wherein was one Letter to the Duke , by the Title of Quarante . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.304) Then was read the Bishop of Rosse 's Confession , 26th of October , Fo. 2. concerning Andrew Beton 's coming . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.305) Attorney . The Duke had these deciphered , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.306) and read them . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.307) Then was read Barker 's Confession 6th of November , Article 3. (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.308) Attorney . Thus plainly appeareth , that the Duke was privy to these Messages to the Pope , and Conference with his Factor : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.309) Now it resteth to understand what followeth of this Course begun with Rodoloph the Pope's Factor ; what Messages were sent ; what Practices devis'd ; and what ensued . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.310) Upon this Letter , the Scotish Queen wrote a Letter to the Bishop of Rosse , wherein she wrote back a Discourse of her Estate and Device , what she thought best to be done , referring all to the Direction of the Duke of Norfolk . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.311) Here is the Letter itself to be seen . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.312) This Letter came to the Bishop of Rosse ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.313) he sent it over to the Duke , with a Letter from the Scotish Queen to the Duke . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.314) This Letter was deciphered , and found hidden in the Duke's House under the Mats in an Entry , in the Way as the Duke went to his Bed-chamber ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.315) the Cipher it self was found in the Tiles of the House . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.316) This plainly declareth , how the Duke in dealing with the Scotish Queen and the Pope , pursued his Purpose of advancing the Scotish Queen to the Crown of England : That the Scotish Queen was in practice for it with the Pope , and referred the Dispatch of Rodolph to the Duke ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.317) and the Receipt of those Letters is confessed by Hickford , and by the Duke himself . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.318) Here was read the Letter of the Scotish Queen to the Bishop of Rosse . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.319) Attorney . By this Letter appeareth , how the Scotish Queen hath set out the whole Plot of the Treason : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.320) A Message should be sent for Aid from foreign parts ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.321) Rodolph the fittest Man to be the Messenger ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.322) and that Rodolph should be dispatched to go about it , when the Duke of Norfolk would . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.323) The Device was to move King Philip for Aid , upon a Consideration of her State here , to enter into Deliberation of the Time and Opportunities to set her Friends to Field , and to seize themselves of her . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.324) This is confessed by Hickford ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.325) and this Letter is also confessed by the Duke himself , that he received it about January was Twelve-month , and it was hid under the Matts . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.326) Duke . I bid that the Letter should be burnt . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.327) Attorney . God would not have it so ; but that it should remain for disclosing the Matter . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.328) Duke . As touching Rodolph , what Manner of Man he was , is no matter to me : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.329) I know of no more , nor am to be charged with no more than I my self am privy to . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.330) I never dealt with him about any Cause of mine . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.331) I received no such Letter , but that which Barker said came from him , which was not that of January that you speak of , about two years ago ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.332) and as for Instructions and Letters about that January was Twelve-month , I received none . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.333) Burleigh . Here the Lord Burleigh said to Mr. Attorney , You may mistake , it was this time Twelve-month , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.334) for now we are in January . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.335) And so Mr. Attorney remembring this present Month to be January , referred the Letter to January now a Year past ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.336) and said , This Letter that I now charged you with , came to your hands at this January was Twelve-month : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.337) It came first to the Scotish Queen's hand ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.338) she took occasion upon considering her own Case here in England , in France , and in her own Country , that it was best for her to cleave unto Spain . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.339) She wrote to the Bishop of Rosse her Discourse to that end : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.340) She counted Rodolph the fittest Messenger ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.341) Matter was devised for his Instructions ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.342) she referred the Dispatch wholly to the Duke of Norfolk ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.343) the Duke dealt in it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.344) his Message appeareth . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.345) And thus it continued till March ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.346) and then , according to the Plot before laid , Rodolph was dispatched , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.347) and went over indeed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,104.348) Duke . What was deliver'd to Barker , I know not ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.350) that is nothing to me : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.351) I am sure they will not say they deliver'd it me , nor that I receiv'd any such Letters or Instructions . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.352) This I say , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.353) the Bishop sent me a Letter of the Scotish Queen's , together with a Letter of his own : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.354) In her Letter she complaineth of her own Subjects , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.355) and saith , she will seek other Means for her Relief . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.356) This Letter was decypher'd ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.357) I mislik'd the Device , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.358) and bad that the Letter should be burn'd ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.359) so the Letter in Cypher was burned , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.360) and the Alphabet was sav'd . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.361) I sent word that I mislik'd all those Devices , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.362) and I advis'd the Scotish Queen to depend only upon the Queen's Majesty , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.363) or else , if she would take any other Cause , both I , and all other her Friends in England , would give her over ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.364) and thereupon it was that I said , that the Queen , if she fell to such Practices , would publish her Letters and Doings to her Infamy . Upon which my Words , the Bishop of Rosse excus'd himself , and laid all this Matter , of this new Device , to Beyton and Rowley . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.365) It is not true that Barker made me privy to any such Message or Instructions , as hath been alledg'd . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.366) Also he is not to be allow'd for a Witness against me , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.367) for he hath confessed Treason against himself ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.368) and Persons outlaw'd or attainted of Treason , are no sufficient Witnesses . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.369) Catlin . My Lord , there is none of these Witnesses , that have declar'd Matter against you , outlaw'd , or attainted of Treason , or yet indicted . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.370) Duke . They are worse ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.371) for they have confessed Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.372) Attorney . The Bishop of Rosse , at this time , was in Custody , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.373) and these Men also that have confess'd against you , were also kept in Custody , kept asunder in several Places , and severally examin'd , , agreed all in one , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.374) and your own Confessions agree with them : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.375) How can this be imagin'd and false ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.376) All these do testify it with one Consent . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.377) The Bishop of Rosse , when he first came to the City , was examin'd of these things , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.378) he deny'd all , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.379) he stood in it earnestly ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.380) when questions were asked him , he said , He was an Embassador , and not so to be dealt with , but to be referr'd to his own Mistress the Scotish Queen . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.381) When he was committed to the Tower , and there again examin'd , seeing things confess'd already ; and by the manner of the Questions that were ask'd , perceiving some Light that the Truth was known ; then he confessed also , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.382) and in his Confession doth agree fully with Barker and the rest : which Consent could not possibly be , if the Matter were not true ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.383) besides that , he hath in his Confession touch'd himself . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.384) Duke . They have not agreed in Confession against me , that I told them any such thing ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.385) but one of them told another , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.386) and so from hand to hand it went among them . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.387) Attorney . Well , you see what is confess'd , and with what Consent we are at Issue ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.388) here is but your Lordship's Denial ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.389) I leave it to my Lords here to consider of the Proofs . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.390) If you had been a good Subject , being then a Prisoner in your own House , when such dangerous Matter came to your Understanding , you would have open'd it , that the Queen's Majesty and her Council might have provided to withstand them , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.391) but you did it not . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.392) The Duke of Norfolk found flat Treason intended ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.393) Rodolph was the Messenger that procured it ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.394) the Duke knew it ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.395) Rodolph was referr'd to the Duke's Dispatch , upon the Conference of the Bishop of Rosse and Rodolph about the Matter , and the Scotish Queen's Willingness to have him sent about the Matter . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.396) Thus it proceeded : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.397) It was agreed that Rodolph should have his Message in Writing ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.398) and at the same Conference , Barker being also among them , it was agreed , and set down in his Instructions , that his Message should be this : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.399) He should go to the Pope and the King of Spain , in the Name of the Scotish Queen and of the Duke of Norfolk , to require of them Money and Men for their Enterprize . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.400) Rodolph requir'd to speak with the Duke : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.401) Barker brought him to the Duke at Howard-House ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.402) there they talk'd together , the Duke and Rodolph a whole Hour , till it was nine of the Clock at Night . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.403) After this Talk , the Duke deliver'd to Barker a Paper , saying , that Rodolph left it with him ; which Paper contain'd the Sum of the Treason , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.404) and therein was also a Paper of the Names of divers Noblemen , Knights , and Gentlemen in Cipher , whom they counted that they would take the Duke's part , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.405) but they counted without their Host ; so that there was for every Name a Cipher , of the which was for the Duke , and for the Lord Lumley . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.406) Barker receiv'd it of the Duke , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.407) and deliver'd it again to Rodolph . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.408) Upon this Cipher of , fell out the understanding of the Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.409) Here was read Barker 's Deposition , October , Interr. 8. (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.410) Item , Barker to the 22 Interr. (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.411) Attorney . In this Bill the Duke is proved to be , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.412) the Duke himself hath also confess'd that standeth for his own Name . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.413) Barker brought Rodolph to the Duke , which the Duke also confess'd , and that Barker brought him Instructions for Rodolph 's Money . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.414) Here Mr. Treasurer and Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer , sworn , did testify that Barker made all these Confessions freely , without Compulsion . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.415) Also Mr. Wilson , sworn , did testify the same ; and that Barker was never offer'd Torture , nor was once in the Prison where the Rack was : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.416) but the Duke said Barker saw where his Fellow had been . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.417) Attorney . Did not Barker bring Rodolph to you at nine of the Clock at Night ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.418) Did he not leave with you Instructions in French ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.419) Duke . I confess it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.420) Then was read Barker to the 16th . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.421) Attorney . Barker came also the second time to the Duke ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.422) after he was come from the Duke , he said to Barker , That the Duke and he were agreed of his Journey , and that the Duke pray'd him to depart with speed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.423) This Message was to procure Men and Money for the Enterprize of the Treason ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.424) and on this Message the Duke dispatch'd him . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.425) Duke . Touching Rodolph 's coming , I have indeed confess'd that he came to me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.426) I was in Summer was Twelve-Month bound in Recognizance for l. to Rodolph , for my Lord of Arundel , and for my Brother Lumley ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.427) the Day was pass'd whereby I stood in danger of my Recognizance . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.428) I sent to Rodolph to intreat him to cancel my Recognizance , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.429) and I offer'd to give him twenty Yards of Velvet ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.430) Rodolph would not be persuaded , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.431) but desired to speak with me himself , which Barker reported to me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.432) I was very loth that he should come to me , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.433) for he was in Trouble at my last Trouble , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.434) and so I thought his coming to me would be suspicious . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,105.435) Barker promis'd that he would bring him to me secretly , and at such a time as it should not be known to make any Suspicion . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.437) So Rodolph came to me , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.438) and I did what I could to intreat him about my Recognizance , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.439) and I could not persuade him more , than {I_persuaded_him} to promise that he would not sue me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.440) He told me of his Trouble and of his Imprisonment at Mr. Walsingham 's , and what Words Mr. Walsingham gave unto him , also of the Scotish Queen ; and that he should deal with the Duke of Alva for Money for her to her own use , and for Necessaries , as he had done before . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.441) He pray'd also my Letters in the Scotish Queen's favour to the Duke of Alva : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.442) I began to mislike him , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.443) and was loth to write ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.444) I sought ways to shift me from him ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.445) I said I was not well at ease ; I could not write , and it was late , and so I would not deal . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.446) As for the Bill of Names , I saw none such , till the Letter that came over from Rodolph about Easter . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.447) I deliver'd a Writing to Barker : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.448) I confess it ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.449) but it was about that Matter which I have confess'd already for my Recognizance ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.450) and so I dealt not with any such Matter as is alledg'd against me , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.451) nor receiv'd any other Instructions , but only as I have said , about my own Matters . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.452) Attorney . My Lord , this is but your own saying , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.453) and it carrieth no Likelihood : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.454) But Barker goeth nearer to you ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.455) he telleth you plainly what the Instructions were : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.456) It was to King Philip for Men , and to the Pope for Money . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.457) Duke . Barker hath confess'd himself a Traitor , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.458) and therefore is no sufficient Witness against me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.459) I never knew of any such Bill of Names , nor such Instruction in French . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.460) Attorney . It is sufficiently prov'd . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.461) Now Rodolph came to you a second time . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.462) Duke . I deny it : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.463) He came no more to me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.464) Attorney . That is not so : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.465) for Barker telleth plainly , not only the Time , but also the several Ways by which he himself brought Rodolph to you . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.466) Duke . There be Ways enough , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.467) he might have devised also a dozen Ways more , if he would , in that House . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.468) Here was read Barker ad 11. (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.469) Attorney . Lo ! he telleth you which way Rodolph came to you . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.470) Duke . So he may devise more Ways when he will . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.471) Attorney . Now you shall also hear it confess'd by the Bishop of Rosse , who at the time of his Confession was in Prison , not knowing what Barker had said . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.472) Here was read Rosse 's Confession of that Matter . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.473) Here was also read Rosse , the sixth of November . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.474) Attorney . Here you see how the Duke agreeth with Barker . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.475) And there was read Rosse more , the sixth of November ; how Rodolph made account of his Time , and of his Return before the Parliament ended . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.476) Then Mr. Attorney made a brief Rehearsal of the Matters contain'd in those Confessions , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.477) and shew'd the Agreement of Rosse and Barker ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.478) and then was read Rosse , Fol. 3. touching Rodolph 's Account of his old Soldiers , that he could bring against the English , of the Duke of Medina 's coming , of Spaniards to be spar'd . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.479) Now the Duke had satisfy'd Rodolph for his Credit , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.480) and tho' the Duke subscribed not , yet if the Duke were a Christian Man , he was assured of him , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.481) and so would assure foreign Princes on the Duke's part . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.482) Then was read the Confession of the Bishop of Rosse , to the 18th . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.483) Now shall you hear further : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.484) Rodolph , before his Voyage , mov'd to have Letters of Credit , that he might deal with foreign Princes ; whereupon three Letters were devised , to commend Rodolph to the Pope , the King of Spain , and the Duke of Alva , and to give him Credit in his Message , that he might be able to procure Aid for the Scotish Queen , and for the Advancement of the Catholic Faith . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.485) The Duke answer'd , I am loth to write , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.486) for if I write , the Queen's Majesty hath great Intelligence , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.487) and so if my Writing should come to light , all were marr'd ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.488) and so he would not write . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.489) Then the Bishop of Rosse , and Barker , travailed earnestly with him to subscribe the Letters ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.490) but he would not . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.491) Then , at length , it was advised and agreed among them , that if the Duke should send one to the Spanish Embassador , that the Duke was content to affirm the Letter , and to let it pass in his Name . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.492) And so the Spanish Embassador recommended Rodolph 's Message in the Duke's Name , without the Duke's Subscription . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.493) Here was read the Bishop of Rosse , ult. Octob. ad (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.494) Also Barker was read of the same Matter . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.495) Attorney . Thus it is plainly prov'd : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.496) and if they say true , as it $can $not {TEXT:cannot} be that they can so agree , if it were not true ; then can it not be deny'd that the Duke is guilty of all this Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.497) Duke . Here is too much at once for me to answer without Book ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.498) my Memory is not so good , to run thro' every thing , as they do that have their Books and their Notes lying before them : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.499) Therefore , I pray you , if I forgot to answer to any thing , remember me of it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.500) It is said , That there are two or three Witnesses against me ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.501) all this two or three are but one Witness : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.502) for Rodolph said it to the Bishop of Rosse , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.503) and of his Mouth the Bishop of Rosse told it to Barker , and so from Mouth to Mouth ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.504) they are all but one Witness . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.505) Besides that they have confess'd themselves wholly in Treason , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.506) and now they would bring me in with them too ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.507) and so are no sufficient Witnesses against me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.508) Note , I pray you , the Advices , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.509) and see how likely they are : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.510) Ten thousand Men must be landed , whereof three or four thousand must be Horsemen ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.511) they must land at Harwich , and a Port in my Country ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.512) neither is Harwich a Port in my Country : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.513) And I am not of so little Skill , that I would have three or four thousand Horsemen land in Essex , the unfittest Place for Horsemen to land in all England , a Country best inhabited of Noblemen , Gentlemen , and other Ability to resist them : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.514) And who would land Horsemen in Essex , a Country all full of Lanes , Woods , Ditches , and Marshes ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.515) I would have chosen some other Country rather , if I had been so minded . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,106.516) Again , in respect of Religion , I would not have landed them in Essex , that came to destroy Religion , and so should have found but little Assistance . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.517) And would I have brought in Power , or join'd with them to the Overthrow of Religion ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.518) It hath lately been said by that side , that I could not be recover'd from my Religion : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.519) I would not be chang'd from my Religion ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.520) I had rather be torn with wild Horses . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.521) Besides that the County of Essex , adjoining to the County of Suffolk , is most unfit for that purpose : no County in England more replenish'd with Protestants nor of better Ability , and none more likely to withstand Papists . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.522) As for moving of Friends , I never dealt to move any Person in the matter ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.523) I never made Provision for it ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.524) I provided no Armour , Shot , Powder , nor Money ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.525) I made no Friends privy to any such Intent . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.526) Some Presumption it is , that if I had intended any such matter , I would have made some privy to it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.527) I was no otherwise so destitute of Friends , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.528) I would have provided Armour , Shot , and Powder ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.529) I would have provided Money ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.530) I am sure there was not much Money found . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.531) For Armour , I had not at my house here past eight Armours which were of Proof , and a hundred Harquebusses ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.532) and besides this , I bestow'd not l. in Armour these ten Years : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.533) Powder I have not two Barrels ; yea , not above a Barrel in all . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.534) So see the likelihood of their Devices ; no Conference of Friends to take part ; no Provision of Furniture ; a Country , both-1 in Religion and Situation , unapt for the Matter . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.535) Where they say Rodolph told Barker , and Barker told me ; and Barker came from Rosse and from Rodolph to me , and from me to Rosse , to declare that I was content to affirm the Letters of Credit , I deny it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.536) As for my Consent , that the Spanish Embassador should affirm the Letters in my Name , how unlikely a thing it is , that I was content to affirm them , but not to subscribe them ; as if I knew not how small is the Difference between subscribing and affirming ; and as if I had such slender Wit . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.537) Rodolph never came to me but once ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.538) indeed I heard that Rodolph would fain have came {COM:sic} to me again the second time , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.539) but I would not ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.540) Barker earnestly urged it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.541) but I refus'd . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.542) To please the curious Italian Head of Rodolph , they devis'd it among them to deal with the Spanish Embassador . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.543) As for me , I never heard from the Spanish Embassador in the matter ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.544) I never saw him but once at my Lord Treasurer's . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.545) I was angry with Barker for going to him in my Name ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.546) and he excus'd it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.547) and said , he could not otherwise content the Bishop of Rosse and Rodolph : and so that affirming of the Letters was Barker 's own doing , and not mine . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.548) I would they might , in our private Examinations , have been brought face to face with me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.549) I could have put them in mind of things ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.550) they have confess'd Treason of themselves , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.551) and they would bring me in with them , and lay it on my shoulders . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.552) I am hardly handled , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.553) I have been eighteen Weeks committed , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.554) I can speak with no body ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.555) if I might have had them face to face , and been allow'd to bring forth my Proofs , I would have brought forth direct Matter and Proofs , and therewith made them remember themselves . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.556) Consider , I beseech you , what they be that accuse me ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.557) and as for them , they be Persons that have accus'd themselves of Treason , and so be of no Credit . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.558) As for mine own Examinations , they wholly agree in such sort as I have here declar'd in mine Answer . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.559) Attorney . Your Answer is nothing but bare Denial ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.560) and here are three Witnesses against you , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.561) and all three severally examin'd , have agreed in one ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.562) and Barker hath directly confessed ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.563) and if you doubt of Impulsion , you shall hear how willingly and how freely he confess'd it , because the same Examination was taken before Sir Thomas Smith , and subscrib'd with his Hand : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.564) Mr. Wilson upon his Oath declar'd the same to be Sir Thomas Smith 's Hand . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.565) Duke . Where it is said , that I should bid them to write , or should affirm their Writing , it is not true . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.566) Indeed Bannister spake to me to write for Money for the Scotish Queen , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.567) and I refused to do it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.568) If I should have dealt in any such matter , I would have trusted one Bannister afore fifteen Barkers . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.569) And as for your number of Witnesses in this manner by Hands one from another , twenty Witnesses may prove but one Witness . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.570) Attorney . You shall hear your own Confession agreeing with them ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.571) you were content Rodolph should use your Name to the Duke of Alva , and that he should assure the Duke you were a Catholick , and that he should shew Tokens to prove it , for that you kept Papists in your House , and were a Friend to Papists . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.572) Here was read the Duke's Confession , October , ad interr. 58 . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.573) Here his own Hand confesseth the Matter . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.574) Duke . I saw the Instructions indeed , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.575) and this Matter was in it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.576) They sought to have it thought I was a Catholick , to serve their Purpose , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.577) and did put it in of themselves ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.578) but I allowed it not , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.579) I would rather be torn with wild Horses than forsake my Religion . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.580) Attorney . These Instructions remained still in your custody : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.581) Why did you not burn these , as well as you say that you commanded the Letter to be burned ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.582) Duke . Because it was their writing , and not mine . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.583) Wilb. You are content it should be extant ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.584) to what purpose was that , if you mislik'd it ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.585) Attorney . Your Lordship shall yet see further a Letter of the Bishop of Rosse , written to the Scotish Queen , wherein the whole Plot and Course of Treason is plainly set out at large ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.586) the Letter came to the Scotish Queen's hands while my Lord Steward was there , which my Lord Steward affirmed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.587) So the Letter was read . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.588) Duke . The Bishop of Rosse is no sufficient Witness against me , for the Causes I have declared . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.589) Attorney . I leave his Credit to my Lords here to consider , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.590) let them weigh it as they see cause . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.591) Now come to consider your own Doings ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.592) since your last Imprisonment , Letters have been conveyed unto you , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.593) and you have sent Letters abroad , by many subtle and secret Ways of Conveyance . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.594) One Letter you sent out , written with Red-Ocre , wherein plainly appeareth that you feared the Matter , and that something was confessed , and that you were afraid of more ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.595) you willed the Bishop of Rosse should take all upon him , because he was an Embassador , and that a Bag of Writings should be sought out and burned . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.596) Here the Letter written in Red-Ocre was read , which the Duke confessed to be his own . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.597) Attorney . This Letter gave occasion to seek the Bag , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.598) and so were the Writings found under Boards fast nailed , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.599) and thereby was understood that Quarante was the Duke ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.600) and so by God's Work broke out the whole Practice of the Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.601) This Letter was directed to nobody . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,107.602) Duke . It was written to Bayly , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.604) and Bayly received it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.605) I can answer this Letter well enough . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.606) Here I am charged with two Matters , for matter of my Confessions , and for burning the Bags of Letters . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.607) As for that which is there said , that I confessed nothing but what I saw confessed by others , the truth is , I received a Letter , wherein I was charged , that I had accused some falsely . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.608) I wrote to satisfy , that I had not accused any of any matter of Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.609) Attorney . Where is the Letter whereby you were charged that you had accused falsely ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.610) Duke . I kept it not ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.611) think you I would keep Letters ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.612) Burned Letters do no hurt . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.613) As for burning the Writings in the Bag , it maketh nothing against me in this Case ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.614) for they were nothing but private Letters of the Scotish Queen's , written before , and when I was last in Trouble , long before this Matter . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.615) At Bannister 's coming up at Easter last , he brought them to me , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.616) and I willed Barker to lay them up : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.617) What needeth such searching for elder Matters ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.618) I bad them be made away , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.619) for they were but private Matters between the Scotish Queen and me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.620) Attorney . There was the Letter that disclosed you to be Quarante , whereby the Treason was known : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.621) now here is also another Letter of your own , which you secretly sent out of the Tower , which sheweth your Guiltiness in the matter of the great Treason with Rodolph . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.622) Here the Duke's other Letter was read . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.623) Duke . This was only , as I have declared before , for my Conference with Rodolph , for the Matter of Money , both-2 touching mine own Recognizance , and procuring of money for the Scotish Queen , for her Necessity . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.624) Attorney . By the whole Course of the Matter that goeth before , it is for the Treason , and not for the Money . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.625) Here is also another Letter of your own , which carrieth manifest Presumptions of the Treason , where , among other things , you will Barker to confess no further , if he love his Life : besides other most manifest suspicious Matters . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.626) Duke . I wrote it not in respect of any fear that Barker could hurt me , when I willed that Barker should confess no more , as he loved his Life : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.627) For indeed he might touch himself in Treason , as he hath done but not me , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.628) for I never consented to it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.629) Attorney . Now shall you see how the Matter proceeded further : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.630) After the dispatch of Rodolph , in Lent last , as he had made shew before , that he intended to go over Sea , and was all this while practising about this Treason ; at length being frighted with these Messages , he came to sue to the Queen's Majesty for a Pass-port , which was granted him , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.631) and he carried over two Geldings with him , which is evident Proof that he went over . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.632) Now shall you see what effect it took , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.633) and by the Answer you shall discern the Message and Practice : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.634) Being beyond the Sea , and having done his Message , he sent Advertisement to the Duke how he sped , and likewise from {COM:sic} the Pope ; which plainly discloseth the whole Purpose and Plot of the Treason , as shall be declared unto your Lordships . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.635) Here began Mr. Sollicitor . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.636) Sollicitor . For that the time is spent , and your Lordships , I think , are weary , I will not now make any Collection what hath been gathered of the attempt of Marriage with the Scotish Queen , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.637) only I will deal with the Matter of Rodolph 's Message , and the effect thereof : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.638) And the Duke's adhering to the Queen's Enemies and Rebels , shall be another part . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.639) In this Matter of Rodolph , hath been laid before you a plain Plot for a Rebellion , and for Invasion of the Realm , set forth in the Scotish Queen's Letter , which was deciphered by Hickford , by the Duke's Commandment , as hath been said unto you ; the effect whereof was as hath been declared . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.640) And here he repeated the Effect of that Letter , containing the Device of putting Men into the Field , and to seize the Scotish Queen . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.641) Now if the Device were follow'd , and if the Duke were a Doer in it , if he were a Consenter unto it , if Rodolph were practised with for the Journey , if he received his Message to that end , if he went and pursued it , if he sent Answer accordingly ; then it must needs be that here is matter of High-Treason , and the Duke of Norfolk guilty of it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.642) It hath been shewed by the Declaration of Barker , and of the Bishop of Rosse , how Rodolph was the Pope's Factor , was commended by the Scotish Queen for a fit Messenger in this Matter , was conferred with about it , Articles were devised , they were shewed the Duke , and the Duke himself hath confessed that he spake with Rodolph , and that he saw the Instructions . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.643) Now is the question , How far the Instuctions extended , whether to matter of High-Treason , as hath been alledged , or no ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.644) The Duke saith for his excuse , That the Instructions were but for a private cause of Money , and that when Rodolph required him to write his Letters , the Duke refused and cast him off . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.645) See how this accordeth : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.646) If it were but a private Cause , whereto served that refusal to write ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.647) As well he might by Letters , as by Instructions , $pursue {TEXT:pursued} in a private Cause . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.648) What needeth that secret coming in the Night-time about a private Cause ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.649) The Duke himself confesseth , that the Instructions were shewed him before Rodolph came to him ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.650) he confesseth also that Rodolph was commended by the Scotish Queen ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.651) the Instructions have here been shewed , containing the Matter of his Journey , and extending to the Treason : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.652) He came to confer with the Duke . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.653) Now let your Lordships judge why , and about what Matters they conferred . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.654) The Bishop of Rosse and Barker do , of their own knowledge , declare , how , for Furniture of this Message , there were Letters of Credit devised in the name of the Scotish Queen and the Duke of Norfolk , to the Pope , the Spanish King , and the Duke of Alva ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.655) the Duke refused to subscribe them , for fear , if he should deal too openly , the Treason might perhaps to some appear : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.656) therefore a Device was found out how to salve the matter , That he should , by his Servant , affirm the Letters to the Spanish Embassador , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.657) and so they should , by the Spanish Embassador's Commendation , pass with as good credit as if they had been subscribed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.658) This Device was performed , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.659) his Assent was witnessed , and the Letters of credit confirm'd accordingly . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.660) Rodolph went over to the Duke of Alva , and from thence to the Pope ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.661) he return'd answer of his Message , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.662) and gave Advertisement to the Duke . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.663) Did not he send his answer concerning the very Instructions that have been alledg'd , and the matter of Treason , and not of a private Cause ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.664) And to whom ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.665) Sent he not answer to the Duke , by the name of Quarante ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,108.666) Would Rodolph make answer to , and advertise him that never sent him , and of a Matter that he never sent him about ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.667) By this you may see the intent of the Message . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.668) Now shall you see what Answer was return'd . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.669) The Bishop of Rosse , after this , sent over a Servant of his , one Charles Bayly , to fetch certain Books that were printed in those Parts ; Books containing very seditious Matter , whereof I have seen some , by permission , tending to these ends . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.670) First , therein is conveyed to the Scotish Queen a Title to the Crown of England , a Descent above the Conquest , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.671) and so labouring to impair the Interest of all our Kings that have reigned since the Conquest . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.672) Then the Judgment of the Right of the Crown of this Realm is reduc'd to an universal Law , which they call Jus Gentium , and the discerning thereof exempted from the Laws of this Realm . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.673) And of that universal Law they establish one universal Judge , whom they insinuate to be the Pope , whose Bulls you see have pass'd in prejudice of the Queen's Majesty's undoubted Right . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.674) This Charles Bayly being in those parts for this occasion of the Books , met with Rodolph at Brussels , after that Rodolph had had his dispatch from the Duke of Alva , and was hasting to the Pope ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.675) and therefore having haste of his Journey , and much to write , and small leisure , he desired Charles Bayly to write for him two Letters for two Noblemen of this Realm , both in Cipher : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.676) but to whom the Letters were directed , Charles himself could not tell ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.677) for Rodolph subscrib'd the Letters himself , one to Quarante , the other to Trente . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.678) Charles Bayly bringing their Books and Letters , was taken at Dover , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.679) the Books were brought to the Council , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.680) the Pacquet of Letters were convey'd away to the Bishop of Rosse : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.681) And daily more and more grew the Suspicion , by reason of the repair of the Bishop of Rosse 's Servants to the Marshalsea , where Charles was . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.682) At length there were Letters taken between the Bishop of Rosse and Charles , mentioning the recovery of Rodolph 's Pacquet . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.683) In this Pacquet was the Advertisement of the Success of the Voyage , from Rodolph to the Duke , by the name of . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.684) This Letter of Rodolph 's was sent to the Duke from the Bishop of Rosse by Barker ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.685) Barker deliver'd it to the Duke , from whence it was sent back again to the Bishop of Rosse by Gutbert , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.686) and by Gutbert it was deciphered , and carried again to the Duke by Barker : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.687) Upon this occasion Gutbert was sought for , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.688) the Duke convey'd him away , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.689) and this conveying away of Gutbert , the Duke hath confessed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.690) If this be thus , then must it needs be that Rodolph was sent by him , and to such end as the Letter bringeth answer of . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.691) In the Letter , this was contain'd , That Rodolph had spoken with the Duke of Alva ; That he had very good and loving Alliance ; That the Duke of Alva lovingly promis'd all the help he could ; and that he would commend the Cause to the King of Spain his Master : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.692) And he advised Rodolph to go forward to the Pope , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.693) and that he said he could not do further without more Warrant , which he would seek to procure . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.694) Also certain questions were ask'd by the Duke of Alva ; as , What Fort was between the Haven where they should land and London ? How near London it was ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.695) So the nearness of London was respected , how incommodious soever your Lordship saith the Place was for Horsemen . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.696) These Questions belike depended upon the Matter propounded , which touch the Plot of the Treason , and not a private Cause , as your Lordship pretendeth . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.697) The Duke of Norfolk confesseth the receipt of these Letters , and the deciphering of them . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.698) So Charles Bayly , by Rodolph 's Request , wrote the two Letters in Ciphers ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.699) Rodolph himself directed them to and . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.700) Charles being taken , and confessing the writing , and bringing of these Letters , and the Matter contain'd in them in April last , yet knew not who was or . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.701) This was strangely convey'd , Treason known in Matter , and yet the Person not known to himself that wrote it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.702) Here was read Charles Bayly 's Confession , ad 3. (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.703) Sollic. Now you see to what End the Effect of the Message tended ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.704) you see what it was , and how it was done ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.705) you see how it was receiv'd , and the Duke of Alva 's Questions upon it : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.706) now you shall see the Contents of the Answer , by the Examinations of the Bishop of Rosse , and Barker ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.707) the receipt of the Letters of Answer the Duke himself hath confessed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.708) Duke . Where they say this Message was sent by my Privity , by reason that I was meant by , I deny it ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.709) I never wrote by Rodolph , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.710) I refus'd to do it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.711) I knew not his Letters were to me , but as Barker said : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.712) And it was not likely they should be to me ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.713) for it was a Matter which I was not privy of , and in a Cipher which I had not ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.714) Rodolph left no Cipher with me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.715) As for the taking of the Pacquet , I knew nothing of it ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.716) the Letter I never saw in Cipher ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.717) Barker brought me a Decipher , telling me , That was for me , and for the Queen of Scots . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.718) When he told me first he had the Cipher , I ask'd what I should do with it , and how I should read it , having no Cipher ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.719) Barker answered , that it was left with Gutbert ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.720) for Rodolph , at his departure , had told him , That he would write answer of the Money for the Scotish Queen , and that he would leave the Cipher with Gutbert ; and that he had so done , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.721) and in the Letters deciphered did appear , that the Duke of Alva had promised aid of Money for the Scotish Queen for her Necessities ; but he could not yet do it for want of Commission , but as soon as he had Commission he would . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.722) When I heard of this I mislik'd this dealing with the Duke of Alva , having before refus'd to write to him in the Matter at Rodolph 's Request ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.723) and I threatned Barker if he so dealt any more with me . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.724) The Letters might be to me , as Barker said , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.725) but I knew not so much . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.726) Sollic. This your Answer is in all no more than a bare denying , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.727) and so be all your Speeches , all upon your own Credit only . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.728) Here was read Barker 's Confession , ad 2 , & 3 , concerning Rodolph 's Letters in Cipher , and the Deciphering by Gutbert , and the Port where the Walloons should have landed , & c . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.729) Then was read the Bishop of Rosse 's to the 12 and 13 , to the same effect . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.730) Then Mr. Sollicitor recited again the Effect of the Letters , and the said Confessions of Rosse and Barker , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.731) and proceeded further thus : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.732) You see all these agree in one concerning the Contents of the Letter ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,109.733) now the Letter being deciphered by Gutbert , and Gutbert being able to discover the whole , this Gutbert , when he was sent for by the Council , was convey'd away by the Duke's means , as the Duke himself hath confessed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.734) Duke . It may be Barker received this Letter as you spake of , and that Gutbert deciphered it , and that it contain'd the Matters that you alledge ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.735) it may be that they kept that Letter still to themselves , and might bring me another Letter , containing only such Matter as I was contented with , containing the private Cause . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.736) Sollic. An unlikely matter ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.737) but thus you see the Duke confesseth the Receipt of the Letter , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.738) he only denieth that it was to this effect . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.739) It was confessed , that a Letter to this effect was written to ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.740) he also confesseth , that was for the Duke himself . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.741) The Duke of Alva 's Questions prov'd the form of the matter ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.742) the Duke read that Letter . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.743) Duke . I read not that Letter , but of another Matter , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.744) and you bring but one Witness to prove it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.745) Sollic. There be two Witnesses , Barker and the Bishop of Rosse , severally examined , who agreed directly , expressing it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.746) And Bayly also wrote the Letter himself containing the Treason , and not knowing to whom the Letter was directed , accordeth with them . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.747) Duke . Barker and Gutbert might make the Letter themselves , and put in and out what they list . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.748) Sollic. Why did Rodolph write you a Letter at all ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.749) Duke . I know not . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.750) Barker presented me the Letters out of Cipher , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.751) and I had not the Cipher , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.752) nor saw any such Letter as you alledge . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.753) Sollic. It appeareth further , how after this dispatch with the Duke of Alva , Rodolph went forward on his Message to the Pope ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.754) and having also good Success there , he so advertis'd again . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.755) The Pope sent Letters to the Duke and the Scotish Queen , to this effect , That he liked well of their Enterprizes , & c . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.756) Would Rodolph have gone to the Pope and procur'd Letters , if he had not had Instructions accordingly ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.757) The Duke himself hath confessed such a Letter , conceived there came Letters , both of one Tenour ; the one by the way of France , the other by the way of Flanders : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.758) the effect you have heard , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.759) and the Receipt is confessed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.760) Duke . Barker indeed brought me about six or seven Lines , written in a Roman Hand in Latin , beginning thus , Dilecte fili , salutem . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.761) I asked what it was ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.762) and Barker told me , it was a Letter from the Pope to me : Wherewith I was offended , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.763) and said , A Letter to me from the Pope ! (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.764) What have I to do with him , that is Enemy to my Religion and Country ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.765) How cometh this to pass ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.766) So I received it , and not otherwise : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.767) and Barker excus'd it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.768) and said , That Rodolph had procur'd it for his own Credit . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.769) Here was read Barker , ad 29 . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.770) Sollic. Thus you see the Effect of this Letter , and how this was directed to the Duke from Rodolph , also by the name of , deciphered by Gutbert , and delivered to the Duke by Barker . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.771) The Duke received it (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.772) and read it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.773) and said , Rodolph hath been at Rome , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.774) I perceive there will nothing be done this year . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.775) By this it appeareth , that he reproved not Barker at all for bringing it unto him , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.776) for Barker brought it him twice : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.777) Would he have brought it him the second time , if the Duke had been angry with him for it at the first ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.778) Duke . I knew not at the first time what it was , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.779) for it was in Cipher . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.780) Then was read Barker 's Confession to the 8th . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.781) Duke . Barker is not of Credit , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.782) he accuseth me falsely . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.783) Sollic. He was your Servant , and of near Place and Credit about you ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.784) why should he accuse you wrongfully ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.785) Duke . He was not of Credit about me ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.786) for I used him not this fourteen Years . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.787) Sollic. That is not so , as hath well appeared . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.788) Besides this , the conveying away of Gutbert , which was done by your means , and who deciphered this Letter , and could have disclosed the Matter , proveth a great Guiltiness in you . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.789) Duke . He was convey'd away at his own Request made , and not for my Safety . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.790) Sollic. You caused him to be convey'd away , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.791) and were privy to his conveying . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.792) Duke . Barker removed him : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.793) indeed I was not privy . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.794) Sollic. You moved Bowes to join with Barker to do it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.795) Then Mr. Sollicitor said further to the Peers , I have also , my Lords , one thing more to say to you from the Queen's Majesty's own Mouth : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.796) The Lords that be here of the Privy-Council do know it very well , not meet here in open Presence to be uttered , because it toucheth others that are not here now to be named ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.797) but by her Highness's Order , we pray that their Lordships will impart it unto you more particularly . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.798) In Flanders , by the Embassador of a foreign Prince , there the whole Plot of this Treason was discovered , and by a Servant of his brought to her Majesty's Intelligence ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.799) the Minister not meaning to conceal so foul and dishonourable a Practice , gave Intelligence hither by Letters , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.800) and hath therein disclosed the whole Treason in such Form as hath here been proved unto you : Wherefore I refer the more particular Declaration thereof to the Peers of the Privy-Council . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.801) Then began Mr. Wilbraham , Attorney of the Wards , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.802) and said to this effect . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.803) Wilbraham . There is yet something unspoken , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.804) it consisteth in two Points , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.805) I will be short in both . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.806) The Matters are plain , and easy to understand . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.807) Let my Lord answer , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.808) and your Lordships shall easily judge of them . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.809) Here have been set forth before you the imagining and practising of the Deprivation and Death of the Queen's Majesty , with bringing in of Strangers into the Realm to invade , and levy War , with the Appurtenances both miserable and many . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.810) This Request I am now to make , that for proof of these Treasons , that I will intreat you to have in memory what hath before been said ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.811) for tho' the Proofs of these Treasons we divide to several Parts , for Ease and Shortness , as the seeking of the Marriage , Rodolph 's Voyage , the Success thereof , and the Residence that remaineth , ought all to be compared together ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.812) any one appearing plainly true , giveth Credit to the rest . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.813) The Queen's Majesty's Proceeding in this Trial is very honourable , mild , and gracious ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.814) the Confessions have been made by the Parties freely , without Torture or Constraint . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,110.815) You shall see each of them , and each part so prove the other , as the whole shall be clearly out of doubt ; Where the Earl of Northumberland and his Wife , the Earl of Westmoreland , Richard Norton , and others in the North Parts raised Rebellions , and levy'd open War against the Queen's Majesty within her Realm ; and being overthrown by the Queen's Power , fled into Scotland , and there were received by the Duke of Chastelleroy , the Lord Harris , the Lord Hume , the Lord Buccleugh , and others , and by them were comforted and detained against the Queen's Majesty , requiring to have them delivered . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.816) Her Majesty being denied to have them restored , publish'd and proclaim'd open War against those Detainers of her Rebels , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.817) and appointed the Earl of Sussex her Lieutenant-General , with an Army to invade Scotland , and there to pursue those her Enemies , sparing the rest . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.818) He entered into the Land , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.819) made open War upon them , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.820) blew up their Houses with Powder , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.821) wasted their Countries , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.822) and drove the Rebels out of Scotland . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.823) The one Matter now that I am to disclose , is , That the Duke of Norfolk knowing all this , yet did adhere unto , comforted and relieved the said Rebels ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.824) he procured Money to be distributed to the Earl of Westmoreland , the Countess of Northumberland , and other of them ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.825) and this is manifest Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.826) The other Matter is , That the Duke of Norfolk knowing all this to be true , adhered unto , comforted , and relieved the said Lords of Scotland , the Queen's Enemies , Receivers and Detainers of her Rebels ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.827) and this is also Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.828) And first for the aiding of the Rebels : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.829) After this Rebellion , and their Overthrow by the Queen's Power , they fled into Scotland , a very bare Country where they were driven to hard Shifts , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.830) so were they enforced to sue to the Pope for help ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.831) they wrote to him , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.832) the Scotish Queen wrote in their favour to the Pope's Nuncio , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.833) the Matter was pursued for them by one D. Morton : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.834) this Morton was he that was the Procurer of the Bull that was sent over against the Queen's Majesty ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.835) this Morton was he that reconciled the Earl of Northumberland to the Romish Church , by a Bull of Absolution : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.836) he went to the Pope on their Message ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.837) the Pope granted them Relief , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.838) and wrote Letters in the mean time to comfort them , which were directed thus ; Thomae & Carolo Northumbriae & Westmorlandiae Comitibus , reliquisque Nobilibus Catholicis partium Borealium Regni Angliae : To Thomas and Charles , Earls of Northumberland and Westmoreland , and other of the Catholick Noblemen of the North Parts of the Realm of England . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.839) Belike , so calling them noble in the fulfilling of D. Story 's Promise , that by their rebellious Enterprize they were now of Worshipful become Honourable . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.840) Here was read the Effect of the Pope's Letters to the Rebels . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.841) The Letters hereof came to the Bishop of Rosse ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.842) the Money was assigned in Flanders ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.843) the Bishop of Rosse sent to the Duke of Norfolk for his Advice , and for his Help to convey the Money to them . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.844) The Bishop thought it best to have the Money sent by the West-Borderers , where the Lord Harris was , and with him Leonard Davis : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.845) the Duke , for their special displeasures to Leonard Davis , was not willing that Leonard Davis should have part of it ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.846) but had more mind to have his Brother of Westmoreland relieved , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.847) and to that end he devised with Bannister for the sending of the Money . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.848) In the mean time , behold how that course was interrupted : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.849) The Queen's Majesty had a Treaty with the Queen of Scots , wherein one special Article was , That the Rebels should be delivered . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.850) This the Scotish Queen was loth (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.851) and liked not to do ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.852) she asked the Duke of Norfolk 's Counsel in it ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.853) he advised that in no wise they should be delivered , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.854) for that were too much against her Honour : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.855) nevertheless , for that he feared that the Article concerning the delivery of the Rebels might be some stay to such conclusion , as otherwise they might have liked of , he gave advice that the Rebels should depart out of Scotland . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.856) Rosse wrote to them to that end , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.857) and therewith sent them the Pope's Letters , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.858) and so they all departed out of Scotland into Flanders , except only Leonard Davis , who remained with the Lord Harris and the Earl of Northumberland , who would also fain have been gone if he might ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.859) and so by this occasion , and by Bannister 's means , was this sending of the Money into Scotland disappointed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.860) Then was there another Device taken , to distribute it in Flanders : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.861) and because it should not all be suddenly wasted , it was agreed by the Bishop of Rosse , that it should be distributed monthly . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.862) This Order was opened to the Duke by Barker , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.863) the Duke liked well of it , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.864) and willed it to be done accordingly . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.865) A Man was sent over for this purpose , and the Money distributed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.866) The Countess of Northumberland wrote over to the Bishop of Rosse a Letter of Thanks . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.867) Hereupon report was made to the Duke , that it was done as he had appointed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.868) Now the Duke will ask us , What proof we have hereof ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.869) We say , The Confessions of Rosse and Barker . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.870) Against this he taketh exception ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.871) his only answer is his bare denial , and his defacing of their Credit . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.872) He saith they are Traitors , and have confessed Treason against themselves , and not to be received for sufficient Witnesses against him . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.873) This hath been well answered already by my Lords the Justices , that by the Law they are sufficient Witnesses . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.874) You may not stand upon your Honour and difference of Degree , and thereby limit how far they are to be credited . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.875) But now let us examine their Credit , and their likeliness to tell Truth , and how meet in this Case they are to be believed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.876) First , For the Bishop of Rosse , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.877) he is a wise Man , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.878) he is learned , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.879) he is a Bishop , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.880) he is an Embassador , a great Friend to the Duke of Norfolk ; so far in Credit with the Scotish Queen , that he hath been the principal Doer of all her Affairs ; so the fittest Man for this Treason , the meetest Man to be used in it , since the Scotish Queen's Title is the ground of the Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.881) Who then but such a Man was fit to be used ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.882) Who meeter to be heard in such a matter than he ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.883) A Scot , a wise Man , well acquainted with the matters , well able to deal in them , ever at hand , and every way the meetest Man . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.884) He was a Scot , say you ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.885) the more to blame the Duke of Norfolk to deal so with him , against the express Commandment of his Sovereign upon his Allegiance , and against his own Faith , Submission , and Promise , and so himself unworthier Man to be believed than the Scotish Witness . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.886) Why should the Bishop of Rosse accuse him falsely ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.887) What should move him to it ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.888) He accuseth you , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.889) he also proveth it against you ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.890) he is the aptest Man to know it , the aptest of all other to repeat it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.891) And why will you say he is so oft produc'd for every matter against you ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.892) Surely great Cause , great Difference between him and all other ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.893) he knew all ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.894) he dealt in all , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.895) and where the rest had every one but his Part to play , the Bishop of Rosse continually kept the Stage ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.896) he had a long Part , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.897) he answered all Men ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.898) when every Man brought forth their Tallies , he kept the Stocks of all ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.899) he speaketh of that he understandeth , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.900) he speaketh credibly , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.901) he carrieth Proof and Consent of other . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.902) Speaketh he of Malice against the Duke ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.903) That $can $not {TEXT:cannot} be , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.904) the Duke never offended him ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.905) the Duke was ever his greatest Friend , and he the greatest Friend to the Duke , and the chief Advancer of the Marriage that the Duke so earnestly sought , as most beneficial ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,111.906) he hath in his Confession touched his own Mistress , upon whom he depended , to whom he ought no Malice ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.907) he hath disclosed the Treacheries of the Pope , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.908) him he hath offended , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.909) he gets no more Benefices at his hand ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.910) he hath offended the King of Spain and the Duke of Alva , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.911) he is fallen out with all his Friends , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.912) he is fallen from all his commodious Hopes by his Confession . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.913) Besides that , How hath he told it ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.914) Not at the first as of Malice , and desirous to do the Duke a shrewd turn ; but with leisure , after other former Confessions . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.915) He held off , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.916) and disclosed nothing , till his Face tho' it were a Face of Brass could no longer withstand apparent Truth disclosed by others ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.917) except he had been mad and a stark Fool , as he is very wise , he would not have thrust himself into all those Hardinesses , to tell an untruth to his own so great Loss and Hindrance . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.918) Would he , being wise , for Malice to the Duke of Norfolk , undo his own Mistress the Scotish Queen ; and bring upon himself the hatred of the Duke of Alva , the Spanish King , and the Pope ; and so lose all his Friends , and make them his Foes , and indanger himself , and undo himself , with confessing Treason against himself , for only Malice of the Duke of Norfolk ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.919) It $can $not {TEXT:cannot} be true ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.920) I must needs believe him , because it is Treason that he speaketh of the Man's own Faculty : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.921) He is a credible Traitor . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.922) If he had told us a matter of Virtue , good Life , and true Religion , it had been a Vanity to hear the Bishop of Rosse speak ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.923) but speaking of Treason , he is the skilfullest Man , and meetest to be heard . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.924) As for Hickford and Bannister , they be both still in Credit , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.925) the Duke excepteth not against them , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.926) and yet they accuse him deeply . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.927) For comparison of their Values and Credit , the Duke is noble , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.928) and these are said not able to spend five Marks . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.929) What then ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.930) Indeed their Honour is less , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.931) but their Understanding is great , and their Credit sufficient . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.932) Barker is misliked , and counted by the Duke not worthy to be believed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.933) It is misliked that he is still brought forth , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.934) he is as the base Instrument still play'd on . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.935) There is good cause why the Duke so continually used him : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.936) You must understand that things must be done by Means and Instruments : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.937) The Heads need the Service of inferior Members ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.938) the Heads do devise , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.939) the Hands and the Feet do put in execution . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.940) If the Duke of Norfolk should , for every Message and Matter to be treated with the Bishop of Rosse , Rodolph , and the Spanish Embassador , or other , have himself trotted thro' dirty Smithfield , and the Streets of London , unto Thames-street , and other Places , it must needs have been wondered at , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.941) and would not have been without notable Suspicion . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.942) But Barker , a sly Fellow , sufficient for Skill , exercised in the Matters , acquainted with the Practices , might well go dreaming to all Places without Suspicion . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.943) Sometimes upon Robbery or a shrewd Turn done , the length of a Foot in the Snow , or in the Mire , hath betrayed the Doer ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.944) so the Foot may sometimes accuse the Head . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.945) Barker was one of the Duke's Secretaries , privy to his greatest Affairs , the Writer of his Ciphers , the common Carrier of ciphered and deciphered Letters , the common Conveyer and Sender of his Messages and Letters between him and the Queen of Scots : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.946) The Duke himself agreeth with them in confessing of sundry Circumstances of the Matters , which he calleth his Errors and inferior Faults ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.947) with these Men he dealt in them himself , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.948) gave them Credit , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.949) therefore it is no reason himself should take from them the Credit of their Confessions . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.950) But he saith there are but two of them ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.951) the Fault is in the Duke of Norfolk there are no more , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.952) for there are {COM:sic} more if they were here , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.953) and by the Duke's means they are absent : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.954) Liggons , Gutbert , and Rodolph could tell it also . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.955) The one of them , Liggons , he hath sent away , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.956) and findeth him in France . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.957) Gutbert , as the Duke himself hath confessed , the Duke hath caused to be carried away . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.958) Rodolph is , by the Duke himself , sent out of the Realm on his Message , and not return'd (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.959) it is no reason that their absence excuse him , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.960) for it is not reason that he should take advantage of his own Wrong , that hath made them absent ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.961) so their absence must stand for great Testimony against him , and be judged to concur with them that are present , and have confessed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.962) Rodolph , the greatest Testimony of all , is in Person withdrawn ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.963) but his Letters speak lively . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.964) He hath testified by his Letters against the Duke , and of a matter that himself well knew , not constrained , not examined , but with the Tenor and Course of the Proceeding of the Treason , advertising the Duke of the answer of his Message . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.965) You say he dealt for you in other private Matters , not in the Treason : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.966) If that were so , then the Pope had not given him charge to deal with the Scotish Queen and you ; the Scotish Queen had not commended him to you ; the Instructions had not been so penned ; the Answer had not been so return'd . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.967) But saith the Duke , It is true , Rodolph talked with me indeed , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.968) he required my Letters to the Duke of Alva , for the Scotish Queen ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.969) he moved me about these matters ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.970) but I was angry with him , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.971) I would not write by him , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.972) I departed from him in anger , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.973) and thus in anger away he went . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.974) And whither went he ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.975) Even strait to the Duke of Alva , and from thence to the Pope , even to the same Places and Persons to whom he should have gone for the Duke , if the Duke had been without anger , best pleased and contented with his Journey . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.976) To what Intent , and of what Message went he thither ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.977) Even the same that the Duke said he was angry to be moved of , and refused to write in . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.978) What effect hath it ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.979) Gentle Audience , great Promises and Agreement to the Requests , as if he had travailed not-1 for a Man angry at the matter , but most desirous . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.980) What Answer return'd he ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.981) Even the same that accordeth with the Instructions concerning the Treason , the very Plat and Ground of his Message . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.982) He reporteth Questions asked by the Duke of Alva , agreeing only with the matter of the Treason , and no private Case . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.983) Would he have written answer to him that sent him not ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.984) Would he have written as to please him with good News of a good Audience that sent him not ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.985) From whence departed he in anger ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.986) He writeth of the Course to be kept in Execution of the Treason , which he would not have done to him that was angry to hear of it . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.987) He braggeth of his Walloons , old beaten Soldiers . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.988) If the Duke of Norfolk had been a true Man , and angry with the matter , as he now saith , and done his Duty ; tho' they had come , his Walloons , his old beaten Soldiers , might have been so new beaten of the old English Fashion , as they were never so swinged in their Lives . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.989) This Point Mr. Attorney spake with such a Grace , such Chearfulness of Heart and Voice , as if he had been ready to be one at the doing of it ; like a hearty true Englishman , a good Christian , a good Subject , a Man enough for his Religion , Prince and Country . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,112.990) If the Duke says it was the Scotish Queen's Message only , and not his for advancement of her wrongful Claim by force he knowing this , Why sought he to marry her against the Queen's Majesty's Will , and to pursue it by force ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.992) If he say it was Barker 's single Device , to send these Messages , to procure these Treasons , and work all these Mischiefs of his own head ; to what end I pray you should Barker do it , but to advance the Marriage of the Duke his Master , and the Scotish Queen ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.993) And was this without the Duke's privity ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.994) Could Barker compel the Duke to take a Wife at his pleasure ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.995) Examine now all these Witnesses , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.996) and weigh their Credits together ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.997) consider them severally , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.998) their Credits are great ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.999) join them all together , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1000) they be much greater ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1001) but severally examin'd , and all according to one , they be greatest of all , and not possible to be false . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1002) Add to that the Duke's own Confessions of Circumstances concerning himself , and their uttering of matters of Treason against themselves ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1003) consider the difference of dangers in telling truly or falsely : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1004) for if they utter'd it , and it were true , then stood they but in danger of their bodily Life ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1005) if they should falsely accuse , yet that Accusation suffering against themselves for Treasons , they lost both Body and Soul , in falsely accusing others . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1006) The Duke was their Master , they his Servants , and his true Servants , and such as were to gain by his Prosperity ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1007) would they untruly accuse him , the stay of their Preferment ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1008) For tho' they be Traitors , and howsoever they be otherwise without Credit , yet against the Duke of Norfolk they are well to be believ'd . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1009) Now on the other side against the Duke's own Credit , which he hath by his own doings impaired and made inferior to these of lower degree : You have heard of his Oath especially taken for the Commission at York , to deal truly and sincerely ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1010) he kept it not , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1011) he so dealt as if an Oath were of no great weight with him . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1012) His Oath of a Counsellor he hath broken , both in disclosing of Secrets , and in giving advice to a foreign Prince , and a Competitor of the Queen's Crown , against the Queen's Majesty his Sovereign Lady . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1013) Now may it not be that these Men of mean degree and value , against whom it is not alledg'd that they have been at any time perjured , may be produced and credited against him that hath so little esteem'd his Oath ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1014) I have heard also , that there was an Oath wilfully taken upon a Bible , in denying of things laid to his charge , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1015) and yet the matter was found true , and by himself within a short space confessed : so that his Oath , his Hand , and his Word , bear no sway with him . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1016) He submitted himself , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1017) he subscribed his Submission , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1018) and seal'd it ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1019) he added solemn Promises upon his Faith and Allegiance , not to proceed in the Marriage between the Scotish Queen and himself : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1020) but he kept not touch , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1021) he broke Promise also , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1022) and yet he saith his Hand , Mouth and Heart go together . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1023) If they go together in the right way , it is well ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1024) but when they go together in Untruth , it is evil and dangerous : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1025) therefore it is not for my Lord of Norfolk to stand so much upon the discrediting of the Witnesses , and advancing of his own Credit , which himself hath so much decayed . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1026) Now I will go to the Proof . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1027) Duke . I shall hardly come , after so smooth a Tale as Mr. Attorney of the Wards can tell ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1028) yet one good Proof I have to my Comfort , that they be as please your Lordships to weigh them . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1029) If you would not have dealt thus untruly with me , I would not have taken exception against them , tho' I chiefly challenge none but Barker , in whom you may see what Fear may do ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1030) besides that they have confessed themselves Traitors , and so Men of no Conscience or Credit . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1031) It is well known that Barker 's Stomach is nothing ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1032) he hath been known well enough . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1033) Fear hath done much in him . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1034) The Bishop of Rosse is also a fearful Man . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1035) As touching Barker and the Bishop of Rosse , Bracton hath a Saying , That Witnesses must be Freemen and not Traitors , neither outlawed nor attainted . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1036) Catlin . None of them be outlaw'd , attainted , or indicted . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1037) Duke . I mean not that they were indicted , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1038) but they be in as ill Case , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1039) for they have confessed themselves Traitors . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1040) He saith also , they must be Legales , lawful Men , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1041) and so $can $not {TEXT:cannot} Strangers be , as the Bishop of Rosse and Rodolph ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1042) it is these Strangers that charge me only , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1043) the other having dealt so disloyally , and confessed it against themselves , are not to be believ'd . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1044) As for Barker , I have not used him as my Secretary these thirteen years : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1045) he entered with the Bishop of Rosse , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1046) and dealt with him in these Matters against my Knowledge . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1047) Catlin . Bracton indeed is an old Writer of our Law , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1048) and by Bracton he may be a Witness ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1049) a Stranger , a Bondman may be a Witness : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1050) Ask you all the Judges here . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1051) And the Judges affirmed that he may . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1052) Duke . If a Stranger be to give Evidence whereby Lands should be recovered , you shall not recover upon that Evidence given by a Stranger . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1053) Wilbraham . This were a strange Device , that Scots might not be Witnesses ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1054) for so , if a Man would commit Treason , and make non privy but Scots , the Treason were unpunishable ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1055) and so were a kind of Men found out , with whom a Man might freely conspire Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1056) Duke . You say my Indictment is only upon the Statute of 25 Edward III . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1057) That Statute standeth upon three points , compassing the Death of the Prince's Person , levying of War against the Prince , and aiding of the Prince's Enemies ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1058) and all these must be prov'd Overt-fact . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1059) If by any way , by any Overt-fact , you can prove that I have directly touch'd the Prince's Person , or done any of the said things that the Statute extendeth to , I will yield myself guilty . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1060) If any thing be doubtful , the Statute referreth it to the Judgment of the Parliament . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1061) Catlin . Usage is the best Expounder of the Law , that is , the common Use how the Statute hath been taken and expounded ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1062) and the same Statute is but the Declaration of the common Law . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1063) Duke . The Preamble of the Statute is to bring the Laws of Treason to a certainty , that Men may certainly know what is Treason . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1064) Attorney-Gen. You complained of your close keeping , that you had no Books to provide for your Answer ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1065) it seemeth you have had Books and Counsel , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1066) you alledge Books , Statutes , and Bracton ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1067) I am sure the study of such Books is not your Profession . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1068) Duke . I have been in Trouble these two Years , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1069) think you that in all this time I have not had cause to look for myself ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1070) Attorney-Gen. But if you stand still upon proof , whether you have done any thing to the Destruction of the Prince's Person , if the Lords upon the Evidence already produced , do think the Matters true in Fact that are already alledged against you , surely the same must needs be construed a compassing of the Queen's Death ; (THOWARD2-E2-P2,113.1071) for the Law of Treason hath ever been largely construed for the Prince's Safety . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,114.1072) Think you that practising to levy War within the Realm is not Treason ? (THOWARD2-E2-P2,114.1073) Yes indeed is it ; and a compassing of the Prince's Death . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,114.1074) Sir William Stanley 's Case was this : (THOWARD2-E2-P2,114.1075) He did but send Clifford over Sea , to hearken and send him word what Perkin Warbeck was ; that if he thought Perkin was such a Man as he was said to be , he would take his part . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,114.1076) This was Stanley 's Case , (THOWARD2-E2-P2,114.1077) and this was judged Treason , and a compassing of the King's Death . (THOWARD2-E2-P2,114.1078)