S1B051HK
BILL
THE INSURANCE (AMENDMENT) BILL 
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Before I was interrupted last Thursday at the rise of the House, I was trying to emphasize on the fact that these levies must be used to educate our people because many insurance companies in the country, if not well taken care of---
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Shikuku): Order! Those who are leaving the Chamber should do so quietly so that they do not interrupt the Member on the Floor of the House.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for calling for order so that the House can get our views.
In supporting this Bill, I would like to say that the levy that is being sought here should be utilized to educate---
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Shikuku): Order! Order! We can only have one hon. Member on his feet. 
Hon. Nassir and those other hon. Members at the Bar, could you, please, sit down or move out? All of you cannot be on your feet at the same time. We can only have one hon. Member on his feet at a time. 
Continue, Mr. Mungai.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this levy that we are talking about must be extended and used to educate the masses in the farms, urban centres and everywhere else, so that the peasants are educated about the use of insurance companies in the country. They should be made to understand what is---
Mr. Ogur: On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. When I was out a little while ago, the Minister for Tourism and Wildlife made a statement which was very much in order. This was about total withdrawal of trawlers from Muhuru Bay/Karungu in Nyatike Constituency. Can I be allowed to congratulate him more directly upon---
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Shikuku): Order! Hon. Ogur, you should know that you are completely out of order because we are already on a different Order. You should not do that next time.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: If we use this levy to educate the people we shall not only be assisting our people to understand how they should make use of insurance companies in the country, but we shall also be promoting the growth of insurance funds. At the moment, there is a lot of robbery on those who have taken out insurance by the insurance companies. Many insurance companies, during the time of paying compensation, under-value whatever had been insured.
For instance, when the insured are involved in accidents---<
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Shikuku): Order! Mr. Nassir and hon. Nooru, I will not repeat this warning again. We can only have one hon. Member on his feet at any one time. Hon. Nassir and hon. Nooru, would you, please, make efforts to observe that?
Mr. J.N. Mungai: I was saying that underpayment of compensation with regard to accident claims should be looked into seriously. We have had cases where people have insured their vehicles but when they claim compensation as a result of accidents, they are underpaid. I would like to call upon the Minister to make sure that impartial officers from the Ministry are called in to do the valuation of such claims and not just appointees of those insurance firms. This way, the insured will not be robbed in broad daylight.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I gave an example of a person who complained to me that he had insured his vehicle for about Kshs500,00 but when he had an accident three months later, he was compensated by only Kshs150,00. This is just quite impossible. Such a person was driving his own vehicle and I am sure the depreciation of such a vehicle was so minimal that it should not have made the owner lose Kshs250,00 within two months. That is why I am saying that we must educate our people to know how insurance companies operate their business, especially when it comes to paying compensation. The levy we are going to introduce through this Bill must used to educate the insured so that they are not under-compensated by insurance companies.
It is also important to educate unsophisticated people in rural areas on the use of insurance. This is important because most of the our people in rural areas are peasants and grow the food that is usually used all over the country, especially in urban centres. They also grow staple crops like maize, wheat and so on. But because they do not understand that food crops can also be insured, when drought strikes they lose both the entire crop and the investment in it. If such peasants were educated through chiefs' <ea/>barazas, political rallies and other non-governmental <-/fora>, they would know it is necessary to insure the crops they grow. This is why I am suggesting that this levy should be used to educate both insurance personnel and also small-scale farmers in rural areas.
I am sure that some of those who live in rural areas are fully informed about the insurance of their farms and buildings. However, such people have been having problems in getting insurance compensation when calamities occur. So, we should go further and educate agricultural officers on how insurance compensation is determined in order to prevent insurers from under-valuing  farmers` crops for compensation purposes. It is also very important for such officers to be assisted by valuation officers from other Ministries.
As I said earlier, there are many small-scale and large-scale farmers who understand the use of insurance but who are not covered by insurance. This is why it is important for the Minister to enlighten us on what he really means by "natural calamities". We thought natural calamities could be anything like heavy rains, lightning and so on. But you find that right now very many of our people in the rural areas have lost property through tribal clashes. Some of them had insured their crops, but if the insurance companies will classify this loss as resulting from a natural calamity, this will be very oppressive. This is because we know that whatever has happened in the tribal clash areas has not been a natural calamity; it is has been a calamity created by a few people who want to perpetuate themselves in power. 
QUORUM 
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not think we have a quorum in the House.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Shikuku): Let me take a count.
Yes, there is no quorum in the House.
Please, ring the Division Bell.
There is a quorum now. Mr. J.N. Mungai, you can continue.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was trying to say that we must differentiate between natural calamities and calamities created by some people because of reasons best known to themselves. I am on the point of mentioning that we have had tribal clashes recently in the Rift Valley, which are continuing even now. I am wondering whether such clashes can be classified as a 'natural calamity'.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we know that a car can roll and crash when it is being driven. But we also know that that can happen either because the driver is driving carelessly or something else has happened and made the driver lose control of the vehicle. That is referred to as an accident. But you will realise that many of our farmers in the rural areas who have had to insure things like motor vehicles, homes, crops and animals have suffered big losses. We would like to be told by the Minister, when responding to Members` views, whether this will be considered to be a natural calamity. To me this is not a natural calamity; I would say it is a calamity created for the unfortunate people in the rural areas. I would even go further and ask the Minister to order insurance companies to pay for any losses that have been incurred in the tribal clash-torn areas.
I say so not forgetting somebody like hon. Keah there who is pointing at me and who I am sure is going to respond to this Bill. If people in the clash areas are not compensated then it will mean that the Government is supporting the oppression of our people. These people have insured their property but the Government has been unable to protect the lives of the people and their property. People have lost lives and property worth millions of shillings. We want this matter to be investigated thoroughly before it is decided upon by the insurance companies, so that the people know whether they are going to lose or gain.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we must also be told whether those who have been involved in inciting such violence will be prosecuted. They must be prosecuted because they have admitted that they have been involved in inciting people to violence. When I say so, I am talking about a person like <?/>ole Ntimama. I am sure that many hon. Members may say that <?/>ole Ntimama stated in the House here - and he also repeated it outside this House and we have it on record; it was published in the local dailies - that they were going to strive for the rights of their people in their own areas. But those rights of their people also affect the rights of others, which rights were insured. This is why I am saying that the Minister should tell the House whether these people will be compensated.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, last time when I was talking about the problems being caused by this violence, I mentioned the rigging of some Members into this House. When they come to this House they are accepted as Members of this House, yet we know they were rigged into Parliament. This rigging, which has been accepted in this House, has caused a lot of problems and---
The Minister for Labour and Manpower Development (Mr. Masinde): On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Could the hon. Member, please, stick to the Bill?
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Shikuku): Hon. Mungai, you had better confine yourself to the Bill. Which clause in this Bill talks about rigging?
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am trying to expound on these issues and I was at the point of---Although I am digressing from the Bill, the people must be educated to understand the importance of insurance. There are some who have made use of insurance because they know the importance of insurance cover. Some of these people had insured their property, and it was destroyed as a result of a man-made calamity and not a natural calamity. That is why I am saying that all this has been promoted by the fact that some people want to evict others from settled areas so that they can create an opportunity for themselves to remain in power and ensure victory in future elections. This is what I am driving at.
What I must also say is that it is unfortunate that somebody like hon. Masinde is standing on a point of order when it was only the other day when he told the nation that Kikuyus must not be allowed to take refuge in Busia as though---
The Minister for Labour and Manpower Development (Mr. Masinde): On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. First of all, I was misquoted; my remarks were quoted out of context.
However, may I plead with the hon. Member to come back to the Bill. If he has nothing to tell the House, will the Chair, please, ask him to sit down?
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Shikuku): Order! Order! Hon. Masinde, as much as you may have had a point, you have messed it up because it is not your duty to order any other hon. Member to sit down. I would like to ask hon. Mungai to try - although he is trying his best to say whatever he has to say - to confine himself to the Bill.
S1B052HK
BILL
THE INSURANCE (AMENDMENT) BILL 
[Mr.J.N. Mungai:] Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you can see, the Bill says that the levy can be paid in instalments. But as you are aware, there is no business in the country. If there is any business, it is so little that it is not favourable. I would like to urge the Minister to withdraw the issue of penalty because the climate as far as business is concerned is not favourable. It is important that the Minister considers the current economic conditions very carefully. It is okay to say that the levy can be paid in instalments, but somebody can fail to remit the money on time due to unfavourable conditions in business. So, it is important that such factors are taken into consideration. Instead of opting for the penalty, why do we not just say that the money must be paid, and if somebody fails to pay he is sued to make sure that he pays it? It is important to bear in mind that whatever we do in this House, we do it for the welfare of our people. We do not do things here just to ensure that the Government makes money by collecting taxes from its own people when the times are not conducive for our people to make money. The times are very rough, not only for our people at home but internationally. We should not discourage our people from participating in an industry like this one by penalising them when they fail to pay. Let us try to assist them so that they can survive during these hard economic times. If we are not careful, it is quite possible that many people might have to withdraw by selling part of their assets. They might even withdraw their participation in the insurance industry because of these penalties, particularly during this time when we are facing very hard economic conditions.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to support the Bill.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Robert Mungai. 
Not you, Mr. J.N. Mungai. I thought that hon. Njenga Mungai has been here long enough to know that once he has contributed on the same Motion, he cannot speak on the same Motion again. Even if you are prodded by the Chair to breach the Standing Orders, you must resist that at all times.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not look behind me to see whether hon. Robert Mungai was there or not. I thought probably I had forgotten to say something.
Mr. Speaker:  Well, we have another Mungai in the House now. Proceed, Mr. Robert Mungai.
Mr. R.K. Mungai: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support the Bill before the House. In supporting this Bill, I would like to make a few comments.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we know that currently we have about 40 insurance companies, some of which are insolvent and which still continue to be---
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Yes, Dr. Lwali-Oyondi.
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: Mr. Speaker, Sir---
Mr. Speaker: Order, Dr. Lwali-Oyondi. First of all, I do not know whether hon. Mungai has ever made his maiden speech.
Order, Mr. Mungai. You will reply to me when I sit down.
A basic rule again, and we must all be very understanding to hon. Mungai who is a new Member, is that when the Speaker is on his feet, you will all remain seated. When I finish, then you can stand up and respond to me. Have you made your maiden speech?
Mr. R.K. Mungai: No, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Dr. Lwali-Oyondi, are you interfering with what he is saying?
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, mine is a different point of order.
Mr. Speaker: Yes, and what is it?
QUORUM 
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not think there is a quorum in the House, and it would be unfair for him to---
Mr. Speaker: If that is the position, Dr. Lwali-Oyondi, you are perfectly in order because the House cannot continue without a quorum. I am informed that there is no quorum. Ring the Division Bell.
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Members! We have a quorum now. Proceed, Mr. Mungai.
Mr. R.K. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I had started to explain, there are 40 insurance companies in this country, and we know that a number of them are trading while insolvent and continue to do this because they are politically patronised. A case in point is the Kenya National Assurance Company which, common knowledge has it, is trading while insolvent and questions have been asked as to whether it should continue doing this. Should this particular company continue trading until it finally becomes solvent? This question is being asked by other insurance companies. What will the rest of the industry be required to pick up should any deficiency arise in the event of a winding-up of the Kenya National Assurance Company?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there was the Kenya Motor Insurance Pool that used to exist some years back, and it is the wish of the industry that this pool be revived because it was a very useful tool.
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Members! The House has already been informed that when an hon. Member is on his feet no other Member shall be on his or her feet except when moving from one place to another. I would ask all hon. Members who stand up unnecessarily in the House that they are in direct contravention of the Standing Orders. We would like to obey all the Standing Orders because that is what makes Parliament.
Mr. R.K. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, in recommending the revival of the former Kenya Motor Insurance Pool, it is suggested that it should be under a new charter and under changed circumstances as we have today. For instance, the Commissioner of Insurance should have very little say on the running of the pool, except in his role as the regulator of the industry.
It is the view of the insurance industry that the Commissioner of Insurance has so much power that the industry is at his mercy. This is contrary to the whole process of liberalisation, free trade and privatisation. A lot of information is given to the Commissioner of Insurance in various forms that are submitted to him annually. It is suggested that those forms provide so much data and information that it is almost impossible for the Commissioner to utilise that information effectively. It is also common knowledge that the Commissioner does not have adequate staff to analyse, digest and utilise that information. It is, therefore, suggested by the industry that the forms should contain only information that can be effectively utilised by the Commissioner. 
Regarding the training levy, the idea of setting up the Insurance Training College is in the right direction and the industry is happy about it. However, it is recommended that the college should have adequate and qualified lecturers and administrators; otherwise, it will not serve the envisaged purpose. It is also recommended that the institute should have a relevant comprehensive curriculum developed, which should change with time. The industry would like this kind of curriculum to be approved by the industry itself rather than the Government machinery.
The insurance industry should control the running of the college and not the Government in terms of what is to be taught and who is to teach there. The industry has trained and experienced lecturers who should be employed to do that.
It is also suggested that the college should explore very, very urgently the possibility of running actuarial courses locally. Currently, all consulting actuaries are trained abroad and it would be in the interest of the insurance industry to have them trained here.
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Juma Boy, you must be seated.
Mr. R.K. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, my last point on this Bill is that the levy should be based on some reasonable basis; that is to say, ability to pay. This could be based on the total premiums generated. The insurance industry should consider those points about the requirement on training and the assessment of the trading levy, and the Government too should give its assurance.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
The Bill is quite clear and I support it. I support it because in clause 191(i) (3), it talks of charging levy at the rate of 0.35 per cent. That is quite reasonable. The Government has often tried to charge too much in many areas through VAT. They are trying to get 18 per cent and but they end up losing everything. An example is the VAT charged on spare parts. We talked about it here and the Minister did not quite agree with our sentiments, but to tell him the truth, spare parts are being bought without receipts and in this way, the Government is losing revenue. If they had charged 5 per cent on them, they would have received all the money collected. If you go in for too much capital levy, you will end up with nothing. If you go in for too much profit, your turnover will be little, and any trade depends on high turnover but not the actual profit per unit. In this case, I would commend the Minister for putting that very reasonable percentage, and I am almost certain that nobody will be unable to pay it.
If everybody pays, the Minister will have enough money to run the colleges. This should be an example to all other Ministries. There is no need of having big figures and end up with nothing. The monthly payment might involve a lot of paperwork in accordance with Clause 197 - monthly payment. I would have suggested that probably there should be half yearly payments so that we do not have to have too much paperwork and the officers concerned will have less work in demanding for this money on monthly basis.
I hope that the Minister will use this training levy for the right purpose. This money should not be embezzled or used by people to boast about in <ea/>Harambee meetings. A lot of money is being collected from toll stations, but nobody knows where it goes to. There are rumours, and I do not want to be a rumourmonger, that some people grab this money and---
Mr. Speaker: Order, Dr. Lwali-Oyondi! I have made a ruling in the past that rumours shall not be the subject of any discussion in the House, and if you engage in rumours, you are totally out of order and you shall not proceed on those lines.
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I apologise---
The Assistant Minister for Health (Mr. Mutiso): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I think the hon. Members should take the Standing Orders of this House seriously. When you were on your feet, Sir, one hon. Member was walking around as though he was walking in a market.
Mr. Speaker: Which hon. Member?
The Assistant Minister for Health (Mr. Mutiso): That one over there.
Mr. Speaker: Hon. Mutiso, every hon. Member in this House has a name and since you are unable to give the name of the hon. Member who was walking around, you are out of order.
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: As I said before, the Government has actually complained that it is not getting enough money from toll stations and therefore, it is asking that the system employed in collecting levy should be put into operations at petrol stations. Why do we have insurance companies? Insurance is supposed to provide comfort when a natural or an artificial calamity befalls one. It is futile for a doctor to try to plaster somebody's finger after he has been completely flattened by a lorry. We are talking of insuring people when the Government itself is not insuring the lives of people. 
S1B053HK
THE EXPORT PROCESSING ZONES (AMENDMENT) BILL 
The Deputy Speaker: I understand anybody who rises---. Hon. Kiliku, you want to contribute?
Mr. Kiliku: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Shikuku: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thought I heard Order No. 8 being called.
The Deputy Speaker: Yes, The Export Processing Zones Bill and, that is what I presume the hon. Kiliku wants to contribute on.
Mr. Shikuku: Oh, I see!
The Deputy Speaker: Hon. Kiliku!
Mr. Kiliku: Thank you very much Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. First, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Finance and the Government for accepting to introduce Export Processing Zone (EPZ) system of investment into this country. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, so far, we have EPZ in Nairobi and Athi River. But I would like to know from the Minister, what has happened to the Miritini EPZ. Miritini, which is in my Constituency was to be the first of the second phase of EPZ, where the Government, through investors, would utilise Ksh.500 million for infrastructure and---
QUORUM 
Mr. Gitonga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the House has no quorum.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: all right, I confirm that there is no quorum. Will you please ring the Division Bell?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Order, hon. Members! We now have a quorum. Shall we continue? Hon. Kiliku!
Mr. Kiliku: Thank you very much Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I was just asking the Minister to explain why the Miritini EPZ in Mombasa has not taken off now despite of the fact that it was to be the second phase of the implementation of the EPZ. Unfortunately, the introduction of EPZ into the country has, so far, benefitted very few members of the business community because the Government has not educated the people in this country as to what is an EPZ.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, one of our problems with the EPZ is that the Government must make land available for other developments like transport, health clinics and outing facilities within the EPZ. These are the things which must be available because if they are not there then it will be a problem for the workers there. The Government should also come out with a policy as to whether the workers within the Export Processing Zones (EPZs), especially Kenyans, will be paid their salaries in foreign currency. Since all business transactions within the EPZs is 100 per cent done through foreign currency, the Kenyan workers in those Zones should be paid in foreign currency. The investors have been allowed to operate foreign exchange accounts in the commercial banks and, therefore, the Kenyan workers in those Zones should be paid in foreign currency so that they can also benefit.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, of late when heads of government, either presidents or prime ministers come here they are taken to Sameer Industries. I do not know the relationship between the Government and this industry. Why should visitors be taken to only this one industry and not others if you have to show what is manufactured in this country? At Athi River we have industries within the EPZs. That is a question mark because there must be something between the Government and Sameer Industries, whereby visitors from all over the world are taken. Even once a Minister for Commerce and Industry has been appointed the first thing he does is to go to Sameer Industries and that is where they take their guests. They have forgotten that we have other industries in this country.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have been talking about investments in this country, but the problem is that the <-/implementers> of Government policies have been scaring off potential investors from coming to this country. Most of the biggest enemies of this country are Ministers who have contributed to the economic problem we are having in this country today. If you do not take a kick-back in the Government, then you are not a good Minister. As I am talking now most of the investors are going to Uganda and the others are going to Tanzania because of the kick-back policy in this country. Unless we change our attitude towards investors, they will not come to this country. For example, as I am talking today, and the Minister for Tourism and Wildlife is here, there is no land available in either Mombasa or Nairobi for the construction of a tourist hotel. The looters of the land have taken all the land, including parking areas, and have left nothing for development. Where are we telling investors to go if we have grabbed all the land in urban areas. In Mombasa they have taken graveyards! <ea/>Wameuza <ea/>makaburi. When you say that you are encouraging investors, where are they going to invest?
The Assistant Minister for Research, Technical Training and Technology (Mr. Kagwima): On a point of clarification, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have been following what the hon. Member is saying very keenly, and one of the things he has said is that plots in Mombasa and Nairobi have been grabbed and, therefore, such plots are not available in this country for investment. Where have the plots been taken? Have they been taken to heaven or to another country? This is what I would like to be told by the hon. Member.
Mr. Shikuku: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have always had my Standing Orders with me all these years. Could he tell us which Standing Order talks of clarification?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members! Hon. Shikuku, when an hon. Member rises on  a point of order, the Speaker avails him the chance, When an hon. Member stands up to seek clarification for the benefit of the person on the Floor, Rule 80 of the Speaker's Rules provides that he may have the Floor if the hon. Member speaking consents. It was on the basis of Rule 80 that I sought the opinion of hon Kiliku and he accepted.
Mr. Shikuku: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Those rules talk of information, and the hon. Member on the Floor can give way to the hon. Member who wants to give the information. But when the hon. Member stood up he did not say what he was standing up on. The word "clarification" is very new to me.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Thank you very much, Mr. Shikuku. I realise you have a very clear mind on these Rules. For the benefit of the House, I may as well read the wording of Rule 80 of the <-_Speakers's><+_Speakers'> Rules. It says:
"A Member who is speaking may permit interaction by another Member who wishes to elucidate a point. Such Member will attempt to rise with the words "Will the hon. Member permit me...." or "Would the hon. Member kindly give way..." or "On a point of information...".
These are all variances. The Rule continues:
"The Member then speaking will usually resume his seat while the interrupter asks for or gives explanation of the point. But if the hour is late or if the Member then speaking suspects the other of merely trying to harass him, he may indicate that he is not prepared to give way."
I think the hon. Member was seeking for elucidation.
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am talking about land as one of the factors of production because you cannot convince any investor to come to the country if there is no land available. That is the problem we are facing now.
Mr. Shikuku: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thought what the hon. friend of mine wanted to do was to ask the hon. Member speaking about his statement to the effect that the land in Mombasa has been so grabbed, including graveyards. I thought I heard the hon. Member say so. Could he tell the House or substantiate which graveyard has been grabbed by the land grabbers?
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, hon. Shikuku out of this House for five years and fortunately, I was already in the House and so my experience and his are almost the same.
I am going to substantiate that statement. In Mikindani and Kwa Sheikh, there was land set aside for a graveyard, but the municipal council sold it. In my constituency in Vokoli and Port Reitz there was also land for a graveyard but it was also sold. If this is what has happened in my constituency, how about in other constituencies since mine is only one out of 188 constituencies? Even toilets are being sold. In Changamwe there is somebody who is paying rent for a toilet to the municipal council because he is sleeping in the toilet. Even the area meant for sewerage is being sold. I am very serious about this. They are taking everything. Even now they are blocking roads so that the land where the road passes can be sold. If this is what is happening where are we going to get land for public utility? In Mombasa, there is no land for schools because every piece of land has been sold. The Government is responsible for this because no individual people give land. It is the Commissioner for lands on behalf of the Government that is responsible for grabbing land in this country. In the future, we may not have schools or investors coming to the country because there is no land.
Mr. Shikuku: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am now getting enlighten on the fact that graveyards have been grabbed by this Government. I thought the hon. Member went further and talked about a sewerage. This is very interesting. This matter is very serious if land meant for sewerage, toilets, and roads reserved can be grabbed. Could the hon. Member go further and enlighten us on the seriousness of the issue? Which sewerage was grabbed?
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to refer hon. Shikuku to the Town Clerk of Mombasa and ask him about the public toilets in Mombasa. They have all been closed. I am talking about those public toilet near Mabongo Health Centre which the outpatients used to use. They have been rented out and somebody is living there. Is it not the municipal council which has rented them out? Hon. Dr. Wameyo can confirm that somebody grabbed land in Kisauni. That is why I said I have gained a lot of experience.
I support the Bill. The Bill is empowering the Minister to declare any place in this country to be an EPZ. We may have some people who may buy land from the individuals and prepare their cheques according to the standard set by EPZ. Therefore, if the Bill states that the Minister is empowered to declare any place an EPZ on the recommendation of the EPZ Authority, he should do so. The main problem is with our Ministers. This authority might end up making our Ministers looters. If the IPZ authority has recommended that somebody can invest anywhere why should he go to see the Minister?
The Assistant Minister for Energy (Mr. Nang'ole): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Hon. Kiliku has imputed improper motives on Ministers by claiming that they are looters. Can he substantiate that?
Mr. Kiliku: The issue of Goldenberg is still fresh in our minds. Such powers cannot make sense. Why should one go to see the Minister when we want that money? We want to earn foreign exchange. Those are the draw backs of investment in this country. Why should one go to the Minister if there is an authority? This is an authority which has experienced, people who know what EPZ is. We want to get foreign exchange and investments to extend our economic growth in this country. 
S1B054HK
THE EXPORT PROCESSING ZONES (AMENDMENT) BILL II 
Mr. Kiliku: I am supporting the Bill, but not the clause that states that once you are recommended by the EPZ you should go to see the Minister. There is no need for doing so. A Minister can attend the function as a ceremonial guest of honour. Those who have invested in EPZ are given the conditions that more than 60 per cent of products produced within the EPZ must be exported from this country to earn foreign exchange. We want to know from the Minister: What methodology he is going to use to ensure that this is applied. Is he going to know about it only through the customs officials? That is not enough. We do not want people affiliated to EPZ to go and manufacture products here or to use privileges provided only to use the same products for our domestic consumption. We need foreign exchange.
We want the Minister to give us the criteria which they are going to use to know whether this particular country has exported more than 60 per cent of the products to all these countries. The privileges given under EPZ on investment were passed here. I think this Government has already directed what should happen as far as investments are concerned and that is very good. You are given ten years grace before you can pay tax. We want to know if the EPZ are given freedom to bring their products here especially the raw materials, duty free. There must be a method to check whether what they are going to bring to this country as raw materials is duty free and if they are not going to sell the same products duty free to the domestic market. There must be a lot of corruption involved here. I am appealing to the Minister that anybody who is investing in EPZ should carry out a visibility study showing the amount of money involved in foreign exchange, the kind of business he is going to conduct and the number of employees he is going to employ from the labour market in Kenya.
In that feasibility study, the capital to be invested, the number of people to be employed, the number of expatriates to be involved and the labour requirements should be indicated. This is because one of the advantages that we are going to get by introducing EPZ is that investors will be encouraged to come and invest in our country, and also provide employment for Kenyans. Currently, we have many secondary school leavers and university graduates who have been <-/tarmacking> for the last five years or more.
Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appeal to the Government not to allow anybody to bring expatriates and give them jobs which can be managed by our people. We have qualified engineers and other necessary manpower required in this country. In fact, in my opinion, Kenya has some of the most educated people in the African continent today and, therefore, we should not just allow anybody to establish a factory in the EPZ without first producing a viable feasibility study and implementing it. The Government should be very careful on this matter and take into account the money to be involved; it should not be a matter of somebody with just $500 as initial capital being allowed by the Government. Of course, we have many willing investors, but the problem is the unavailability of land. That is the biggest problem we have and I would like the Government to accept the fact that there is no land for EPZ.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other problem we are having at present is that we have many taxes attached to the consumer goods. Today, because of the Value Added Tax, Sales Tax, Custom Duty and other taxes, that package of taxation has made consumer goods in this country very expensive. If we want more investors to come to this country, it would be better to waive some of the conditions which may work against the interests of the investors. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, another point which I would like to emphasise is that we want the investors in this country to be free from interference from whatever quarters. They should not be forced to take up partnerships with people they do not want. Let them appoint whoever they want. However, the truth of the matter is that the land for EPZ in Nairobi has been taken up by just a few go-downs; the whole land is owned by private people. Why is this so? There are only a few go-downs of some agencies, while the Government is making Sameer appear like a Prime Minister of this country. Even high ranking Government officials visit Sameer Industries! Why is it that only Sameer industries have been declared EPZ? The whole land from here to Jomo Kenyatta International Airport was meant to be an EPZ and the Government was to provide infrastructure in those areas, but now, only a few people who have constructed their go-downs there are the ones being referred to as EPZ. Why is this so and what about all the other land?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in Miritini, the Government was to use Ksh.500 million to develop a EPZ there. But the same piece of land which was declared an Export Processing Zone has been given to individuals. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am sure you have visited Mombasa and seen a signpost which reads "Welcome to Mombasa", That area, which had been declared an EPZ, has been allocated to individuals now. I do not know how the Government is going to construct the go-downs there. In fact, the land has been allocated to foreigners; not local people. Hon. Mbela gave the land to councillors from Taita Taveta District, and the other land - more than 50 acres - was given to the Rwanda Government. But I understand that for the last five years, the Rwanda Government has not developed it. May be the Government officers may come in, but I warn them that I have already alerted the people there. If there is no development by the Rwanda Government or the EPZ, nobody else is going to be given that land, by hook or crook. This is because the land was taken from the local people - the squatters - and given out, and if the Rwanda Government is not going to develop that plot, I am going to tell the people to go onto that plot and build houses there. Let us meet there, on the plot! I am saying this because we have been misled. Five years ago, the land was taken away from the people who were crying and saying that no adjudication had been done and now, nothing is happening! I am going to tell the people to go onto that plot. You will call it incitement, but I will tell the people to do that, because we cannot tolerate such a thing. I know that some people are going to divide that land among themselves, because it was allocated to the Rwanda Government just as a cover-up; but there is nothing like Rwanda Government. Even if the land was allocated to the Rwanda Government, why could the people from whom it was taken not be compensated?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are experiencing problems of investment because of the corruption in the Government, in this and the last Government. The people in the Government have corrupted this country: they have perpetrated corruption so much that 80 per cent of the people in this country are the poorest. Furthermore, 30 per cent of those people are below the poverty line and all this has been brought about by corruption.
An hon. Member: Corruption <ea/>nini <ea/>wewe?
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, they can say "corruption <ea/>nini", but a time will come when you will be asked many questions.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have been told here that one person had run away with Ksh.600 million. The Government also accepted that there was money banked abroad, owned by brothers of this country - K 76 billion. Why should you go outside to borrow? Those people you are borrowing money from are the same people who are maintaining your accounts and they know you better than yourselves. They know what you are having in foreign accounts; they have the details. Some people are saying, "It is because of the Opposition". The Opposition is neither in power nor can it direct the investors not to come into this country. No way! They are chased away by corruption.
An hon. Member: The Opposition is not in power!
Mr. Kiliku: The Opposition is not in power, and to say that investors are being told by the Opposition not to invest in the country; and that it is the Opposition which is causing the clashes, as if we do not know about clashes, is very wrong.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, anybody who is causing chaos in this country will be made to suffer for it, regardless of his/her position. I know about these clashes like "nobody's business" and I do not want anybody to mislead this House that it is the Opposition which is causing clashes. I have the details and the particulars of murderers in this country and we do not want the Opposition to be accused of causing insecurity in the country.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, you cannot believe that an ordinary Maasai or Kalenjin can start fighting without being protected by some powerful people. It is the leaders---
The Minister for Labour and Manpower Development (Mr. Masinde): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Kiliku: Okay, murderer!
The Minister for Labour and Manpower Development (Mr. Masinde): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir the hon Member has stated that he has the particulars on murderers. I am wondering why he has not given those particulars to the appropriate authorities?
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is a Motion on the Order Paper next Tuesday, 9 November, 1993 on one of the murderers. There is also a report that I brought into this House that must be revisited. We will make sure that the report comes to this House. These are some of the people who caused clashes and who were quoted by the people as being the instigators of these clashes. These are the same people who are still continuing making inflammatory statements because there was no action that was taken against them in the first place. If you are one of those causing clashes, then you must know that you are scaring the investors away from this country. It is the same Kanu Government which is causing the clashes and then they say it is the Opposition that is doing so.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when tourists read about the Maasais fighting in Enoosupukia, they think that it is the Maasai Mara where they visit. One of the tourists was saying that there was fighting in Maasai Mara simply because they hear that there is fighting in Maasailand. It is the same Government which is causing all these problems in this country. What are we going to do? We are---
The Assistant Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Misoi): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the hon. Member to discuss matters that are not relevant to the topic under discussion?
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am saying that since warriors, including Dr. Misoi, are the ones who are scaring away investors---
The Assistant Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Misoi): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for hon. Kiliku to call me a warrior instead of calling me an hon. MP for Eldoret South?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! All Members here are all hon. Members of this House. There are no warriors here. 
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I did say that there are warriors in this country who have been scaring away tourists. 
S1B055HK
(Motion dropped)
PROVISION OF FACILITIES TO SCHOOLS 
Mr. Nthenge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:-
THAT, while recognising the importance of the teaching profession in the country, and reiterating that teachers must be accorded the same facilities as the other public servants; this House calls on the Government to provide each school with:-
(a) a staff room;
(b) a reading, marking and drafting room
(c) a telephone exchange
(d) telephone booths within the school;
and
(e) visitors rooms where the public can meet individual teachers.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have the pleasure to discuss a very important subject, that is the teaching profession. This profession is so important that it benefits everybody - parents, children and the nation. There is not a single person who is worth much, whether an hon. Member of Parliament, a medical officer or whatever it is, who has never been taught. Each of us has undergone training by teachers. Therefore, the teaching profession should be given very serious---
QUORUM 
Dr. Otieno-Kopiyo: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. There is no quorum in the house now. 
Mr. Speaker: I agree with you, Dr. Kopiyo. Ring the Division Bell.
We now have a quorum, and you may proceed, Mr. Nthenge.
Mr. Nthenge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, teaching is a profession we all should respect because it is a profession we all owe something to. Because of that, you find that the profession must have human needs, and human behaviour is such that you would like to be like the others. We are social beings, and anybody who is a teacher is still a human being. The fact that he is a teacher does not make him an angel or anything different! He is a human being who has to live and do all the things that human beings do. They have also their private lives, and I feel it is necessary that we must accord them all the facilities that we accord all the other workers.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, one might wonder why I have put this Motion before the House and why I am discussing it. I am not professionally a teacher, but I went to school, I was taught and after leaving school, I have been serving in very many school Boards of Governors and I see the problems of teachers. Therefore, I feel that it is high time I talk for them because, as elected Members, one of our duties is to think of the others before we think of ourselves. We have got to do things for the people who cannot do them for themselves, and that is why we have the honour of being hon. Members. So, because I know teachers have these problems, I decided to bring this issue here for discussion with my colleagues, hon. Members. 
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you find that, generally, teachers have only one room in a school, called "staff-room". The only teacher who has an advantage is the head-master, who has an office. Sometimes, the deputy head-teacher might have an office. Now, the ordinary teacher - and when I say "the ordinary teacher", I mean the teacher who is not the head-teacher or deputy head-teacher - has no office except a common room. It is where he has to do everything that a teacher should do such as marking and setting of examinations and preparation of work. Everything is done in that room, and it is where they are supposed also to be chatting. So, if the others are not busy and you are busy, you are very, very uncomfortably working. I am very glad that when I look around this House, I see a number of people who have been even teachers themselves, and even those who have qualification of the teaching profession. I am talking, not because I am a teacher and it affects me; it has never affected me. I only taught as an untrained teacher for less than five months. So, I happen not to think of myself as such. In any case, I am too old now to be a teacher anyway, but I am worried about the young ladies and gentlemen who are in the profession or who want to join the profession. Personally, when I was a student, I wanted very much to become a teacher, but I did not like the conditions of teaching. Therefore, I would like them improved for the sake of those who feel like me. They want to be teachers, but they want also to be treated like the other human beings or the other workers. When I say "ordinary teachers", do not forget that there are teachers with three university degrees, like Dr. Onyonka. He is a teacher and the fact that he is very learned does not preclude him from being an ordinary teacher - he is a teacher! Then from there, you come to those teachers who have Masters degrees, Bachelors degrees, Diplomas and so on. Therefore, the teaching profession starts from a professor down to the nursery school teacher, and these people have the right to live like all the other workers. Why should a District Officer enjoy a lot of privileges just because he has a Bachelor of Arts degree?
QUORUM 
Dr. Otieno-Kopiyo: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. There is no quorum again.
Mr. Speaker: No, we do not have a quorum again. Ring the Division Bell.
Mr. Speaker: We now again have a quorum. Proceed, Mr. Nthenge.
Mr. Nthenge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was saying that teachers should not be subjected to conditions which are not conducive to the provision of standard education. They should be accorded the treatment that other employees are being accorded. I have said that teachers in most schools have only one room to share among themselves and that they do not have facilities like the other workers have. Whether you are a policeman, once you are a police officer, you are given an office and a telephone. Once you are a District Officer, you have your own office, a telephone and even a messenger. But you find a teacher who has, for example, three degrees, two degrees, one degree, a diploma or a certificate of teaching being treated below the standard of a guy who did not fair so well in Form Four examination. Just because this person goes to work in a company or in the Civil Service, he is treated better than the teacher. So, the teacher starts wondering, "What is wrong with me? Am I in the wrong profession? Am I in the suffering profession such that I keep on suffering, and for how long shall I suffer."
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that leads me to say that that is why a number of very good teachers, after teaching for a while, they decide to leave the teaching profession, because they are as qualified as others. They go and get jobs in banks, government institutions and so on, because they are very marketable. Then I ask the question: "Is he or she going to do a better job for the nation than teaching?" The answer is definitely, no. But because the conditions are so bad, you cannot blame the officer because that officer is a human being, just like the other human being who have got so many privileges as workers. The teacher is taken to be a person who has to sacrifice. "Why should we over-sacrifice, as teachers?", they ask. And I think they are right. Why should they over-sacrifice? If I were in their position, I would definitely look for another job!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, at Independence, almost all the lady teachers decided to go and do secretarial job, which required only nine months of training, and they got better salaries and facilities. The teaching profession was left with a big problem and we had to employ very many untrained teachers. Why? Because they had run away to better situations. I can even quote one of them who is an hon. Member here, the hon. Phoebe Asiyo. She went and became a senior officer in the Prisons Department, because teachers are treated very lowly. In the Prisons Department, she was such a senior officer. She used the same qualifications and ability, and she proved she was worth the job. But she had to leave the class-room, like many others, because teachers are given very low and poor treatment. They are not considered! Do you know where they can complain? They can only complain to the children they teach, because they are not in touch with the employer, as it were. This is because when you are in a school, the only people you see are the teachers and the pupils or the students. So, you can complain to nobody!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think there is a message in trade unionism for the teachers, because teachers seem to lack that. They are trained in everything else except that. They are supposed to be some kind of angels. I hope that hon. Komora will get a chance to tell us something about teachers since he has experience in the field. I don't think it is fair to ask teachers to sacrifice all the time and other people do not sacrifice. The police officers do not sacrifice, neither do the district officers or others. If anything they travel by Land Rovers and other models of vehicles. The teacher is only given a piece of chalk yet he is doing the most important job to make the nation what it is.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I feel very disappointed when I see that teachers do not have offices. This Motion calls for teachers to be given offices instead of staff rooms. They should also have another quiet room where they can do marking of exercises, and prepare lessons. That room should have an <-/inducive> working atmosphere. It is not normal to work when people are talking next to you. After the teacher has finished his preparation he can go back to the staff-room and join the other teachers. They should have a quiet place that they can use. We are not giving teachers a fair deal. They are over-sacrificing. I want them to have a quiet room for marking, preparations and writing whatever they have to write.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you look at most schools, even big schools like Pangani Girls and Nairobi School you find that the telephone facilities are only for the headmistress and the secretaries.
QUORUM 
Prof. Ouma: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Once again is there a quorum in the House?
Mr. Speaker: No, we do not have a quorum. Ring the Division Bell.
Mr. Speaker: We have a quorum now. You may proceed, Mr. Nthenge.
Mr. Nthenge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I said that telephone facilities do not exist for teachers in most of the schools except for the headmasters` use when in other offices the secretaries have telephone facilities! If you are a teacher and you have a problem, whereby you would like to communicate with your spouse you cannot telephone her because you do not have telephone facilities. If you have forgotten something in your house you cannot make a telephone call unless you go and beg the headmaster and if he offers you the facility he has to hear what you are saying to your husband "Darling, I left my money". Who wants to be overheard? Everybody would like to make a telephone call in privacy.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am saying that every teacher should be accorded telephone facilities because it is cheaper to use telephones to relay messages than to drive out of the school compound or to catch buses because a good number of them do not have cars. I wonder whether they even have loan facilities to buy cars. Teachers are not well treated. There are many university lecturers who have left teaching because they live under very difficult conditions. 
S1B056HK
(Motion)
INFRASTRUCTURES FOR MUNICIPALITIES 
Mr. Mak'Onyango: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion.
That, while appreciating the Government's move in upgrading Siaya and other urban centres into Municipalities, and given the crucial role local authorities play in the social, economic and political development of a country; this House calls upon the Government to immediately put in place a special programme to finance such infrastructure as adequate water supply, industries, roads and commercial enterprises within these centres to facilitate their systematic development.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the mere move by the Government in upgrading some of the town centres in this country to municipalities implies that the Government recognises these particular centres as focal points for development. It has been necessary for me to bring this Motion because in this country we have a number of centres which have been classified as municipalities, and as I have indicated in the terms of the Motion, Siaya is one of them. Other such centres include Busia in Western  Province, Kitui in Eastern Province---
QUORUM 
Mr. Magwaga: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: What is your point of order?
Mr. Magwaga: There is a problem of Quorum, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Do we have too much of it?
Mr. Magwaga: We are less than 30!
Mr. Speaker: You mean we have no Quorum?
Mr. Magwaga: Yes!
Mr. Speaker: Can you find out whether there is a Quorum, including the Member who is Moving the Motion? Well, I am informed that we have no quorum. Can the Division Bell be rung?
Mr. Speaker: Now we have a quorum. Continue Mr. Mak'Onyango.
Mr. Mak'Onyango: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was saying that the mere fact that the Government has so identified a number of these centres as municipalities, leaves it in our minds, that the Government is satisfied that these centres qualify to act as focal points for development. I have said that among these centres, are Siaya and Homa-Bay in Nyanza Province. We also have Busia in Western Province, Tharaka-Nithi and Kitui in Eastern Province and Voi down at the Coast, among others.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, what baffles me is that although these centres are so recognised as focal points for systematic development, nothing seems to have been done to justify these particular status accorded to these particular centres. Before we continue, it is perhaps wise that one takes a close look at what is meant by a municipality. A municipality implies that in that centre, there is a local authority with a high degree of self-government. In this regard, self-government applies more to economic viability or well-being than political well-being.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is sad to note that many of these so-called municipalities appear to me to be more of political municipalities than economic municipalities. What we need are economic and not political municipalities. I call them political because it would seem as if somebody simply dreamt of rewarding certain people for certain good deeds and he thought the best reward was to appoint an area such a person came from as a municipality. To me, that way of going about so crucial a matter is a misnomer and should be avoided. I would like to see a situation in which any centre, recognized as a municipality has the necessary economic back-up. In case that does not exist, I would like to see a situation where-by the mere act of making a place a municipality, the Government should go out of its way and initiate such projects as would be able to give these centres the necessary economic back-up or the necessary economic strength.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me take Siaya as an example. Siaya is called a municipal council but does not have the means to sustain itself. It relies almost exclusively on the Government or the Ministry of Local Government for everything that it has to do. The very essence of a municipality which is self-governing does not exist. What exists there is a kind of political set-up that is not backed by economic resources. I do think that in order for us to be able to justify the calling of any centre a municipality, the Government should establish the necessary infrastructure.
As I speak here, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Siaya is a municipality without adequate water supply. There is no way any industrialist is ever going to move to a place like Siaya which has no water supply. I think the Government has the resources to enable it to ensure that all local authorities have the necessary infrastructures. This is because there is need to establish industries in various towns so as to give these local authorities a reliable source of income. It would be sad to elevate towns to municipalities and then do nothing else in terms of assisting them financially. I therefore urge, through this Motion, that the necessary infrastructures should be provided in these areas. The Government should go out of its way and ensure that each municipality in this country has a reliable water supply because that will attract investors and industrialists to such towns.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government should also go out of its way and ensure that industries are established in local authorities. We do know for sure that the Government has the means to direct certain industries to certain places. I am reminded of sometime back when almost every industry that was being started to this country was taken to Thika. This was by way of design. I am also reminded of a similar situation that has existed elsewhere. So, I am more than convinced that the same can be done with all these other municipalities. Deliberate efforts should be made to direct certain industries to some of these places so that these places can become the focus of development. So, I urge the Government to do out of its way and see to it that there is some measure of industrialisation in very urban centre that has acquired the status of a municipality. That is one way of ensuring that local authorities do achieve a reasonable measure of financial viability. This is because through these industries they will be able to at least generate a certain measure of income which they cannot raise now.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we do feel that in order for a town to justify being called a municipality, it must have a reliable source of income. Many of the recently established municipalities like Siaya, Busia, Homa Bay, Tharaka Nithi, Kitui and Voi--
QUORUM 
Prof. Ouma: On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I feel very sad that I have to interrupt my colleague, hon. Mak'Onyango, who is talking on this very important topic of urban development but he cannot address a House which has no quorum.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Wetangula): Yes, we have no quorum. Ring the Bell.
We have a quorum now. Carry on, Mr. Mak`Onyango.
Mr. Mak'Onyango: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is sad that the Minister for Local Government, who should be here to listen to some of these sentiments, is not present.
As I was saying, in order to make some of these recently created municipalities effective, I would urge for the amendment of the Local Government Act to strengthen all these municipalities. The need to do this arises out of the importance of making local authorities self-reliant to enable them to generate sufficient funds to be able to render the required services to the people. It is also necessary to amend the Local Government Act so that the decision-making process can be taken back to where it belongs. We are now in a multi-party era in this country. That necessarily means that the people must participate as much as possible in the governance of their own areas. That can only be realised through local authorities. So, it is necessary to amend the Local Government Act to give local authorities more power so that they have more say in the running of their affairs. We should not continue to have the present situation whereby the local authorities have to rely on the Minister for Local Government in order to discharge their responsibilities. This taking away of power from local authorities is, to a large extent, responsible for the corruption and inefficiency within the local authorities.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as has been observed time and again, the biggest problem facing our local authorities is corruption. What is the root cause of this corruption? That corruption comes about because the Chief Officers of these local authorities are imposed on the local authorities. Rather than letting the local authorities have a say in the appointment of such officers, we have a situation whereby we have people from other parts of the country being sent to run local authorities in other places. We also have a situation whereby---
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Wetangula): Order! Your time is over!
Mr. Mak'Onyango: With those few remarks, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move and call upon hon. Obwocha to second the Motion.
Mr. Obwocha: Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to second this very important Motion. I wish to make a few comments on what is happening in local authorities including services that we expect to be provided. It is very sad for the Government to upgrade urban centres without taking into account economic considerations.
Most of the urban centres that have been upgraded in the past were done haphazardly and this is a very sad situation. Towns like Siaya and Nyamira which were upgraded recently, have been financed through, say, <?/>cess from tea, coffee, pyrethrum and so on. Instead of this money being channelled to the town councils for provision of services to the <ea/>wananchi, this money is being administered by the district commissioners. This is an extremely bad situation which should be corrected if we require and expect these councils to operate properly.
We wonder what the Ministry is up to when it gives a town council or a municipality higher status and yet it does not even send a physical planner there. I have in mind Myamira Town which was upgraded because of the new district and yet it does not have a physical planner. How does the Ministry expect the roads to be nurtured in the towns? How do we expect the towns to grow properly. Some of people have build where roads are supposed to be constructed. This is a very sad affair.
Ford Kenya stands for the strengthening of local authorities. When we strengthen local authorities, we do not have <ea/>majimbo in mind. It is a very sad affair when Ministers in Government who have taken oath to defend a unitary state of this country to go around asking for "mini-states" in Kenya. We, the young generation of politicians who are coming up, feel very sorry for these people. I hear the hon. Lotodo saying that he wants his own territory to look after his goats and cattle!
What we ask for is a special programme to finance facilities, infrastructure, water supply, industries, roads and so on in these towns, we are not asking for Government officers and other people who want to grab plots in towns. When Ford Kenya takes over this Government, there will be no Government houses for Government officers because houses and plots have been allocated illegally; they have been grabbed by Government officers. It is very bad when people grab land and plots where Government houses are standing. After grabbing the plots, the officers move and start claiming owner-occupied allowances. This is misuse of public funds.
We know there are indigenous banks in this country that have collapsed. The African entrepreneur has not been given his chance and we are now depending on foreign banks in this country. 
S1B057HK
(Motion)
INFRASTRUCTURES FOR MUNICIPALITIES 
Mr. Kirwa: Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving this opportunity to contribute to this very important Motion. While doing that I wish to say there are various aspects which we need to look into, as far as urban development is concerned. One of the issues which is of major concern to this nation is water treatment. Many towns, even developed ones like Kitale, and many urban centres have the problem of water treatment. Water treatment has been lacking in some towns to the extent that there is s serious outbreak of typhoid and other water-borne diseases in may towns. We are urging the Ministry of Local Government to as much as possible try to facilitate water treatment plants in various towns. While considering water it is also important for this Ministry to also consider seriously situations of water projects. I have in mind the water plans that we have in Trans Nzoia, the Nzoia Water Project. This project was poorly planned and for the last five years it has been suffering a lot from <?/>siltation and other components which were supposed to be included in the initial design.
It is also important for the Ministry to consider small centres such as the one in question as far as sanitation is concerned. Not many of these urban centres are planned and there are sprawling settlements around the towns. A lot of people build their houses in places without taking into account provision for sewerage system. It is important that even if a small trading area has been upgraded to the status of either an urban centre or a municipality there ought to be a master plan from the beginning of the particular town, and no building should be set until it has been approved by the various local authorities. While that is supposed to be the position for the last five years much of the development in some of the small trading centres has been by individuals and there has not been serious consideration of how the long-term development of the area is supposed to be. What makes the situation worse is the fact that such individuals get letters of approval from health inspectors and other local authorities` officers to put up a building that is going to be demolished later. That is a serious matter that we need to consider.
The other issue that we need to look into is that of condemned house, more so in Nairobi. It has become a habit - and this has been an audit query for the last five years - that some officers, including Permanent Secretaries and even some hon. colleagues here, get houses condemned. In some cases houses are condemned even before a board of survey is convened. Thereafter the an occupant moves into the house, uses some little money to renovate the same house and goes ahead to draw allowance from the Government on that particular house. This is a sorry state of affairs that we need to discourage as much as possible.
We also need to look at the road network in various towns. The services charge money that has been collected since the inception of this project has never been used to the satisfaction of areas` residents. For example, Kitale is full of potholes and the Ministry Local Government owes Kitale Municipality more than shs28 million. We do not know what the Ministry is thinking about. It ought to release the money it owes to various municipalities to enable the municipalities to make proper utilisation of it. It may not be possible for the Government to implement this Motion immediately. But I think it can try to set up a programme that is going to channel some of the money to develop areas like the ones cited by the Mover in this particular Motion.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is also important to realise that for any development to take place we need a good atmosphere, peace, tranquillity and cordial CO-existence of all tribes in this nation. It is disturbing that we residents of Trans Nzoia have in a bad situation because we have been under serious threats all the time. The Government ought to issue a statement in respect of various threats issued by leaders, particularly Ministers. While we have no over movement and settlement of the people of this nation I am seriously concerned about the security of my constituents. Some members of various communities have farms in West Pokot, Saboti and Cherangany Constituency. Now, some of the people who have been displaced from West Pokot have moved to Cherangany to settle on their own plots. It was saddening to hear some leaders saying that if we are not flushed out some who have taken refuge in Cherangany they will claim part of Trans Nzoia District. This is a very sad state of affairs. When we say these things it is because we want peace; for the development plans we are talking about here to be implemented there must be total peace. When such threats are issued by Ministers then we have no alternative but to defend our people.
It is not enough to be a Member of Parliament. It is important for Ministers to realise that we are Members of Parliament because we represent people; we are not Members of Parliament in a vacuum. The Minister ought to consider this issue and the Government ought also to take a stand on this particular issue. I am saying this because it is really saddening for my area to be under serious threat from leaders who are members of the Government. The same goes for the issue of <ea/>majimbo; it is no longer important to discuss the issue of <ea/>majimbo as such. We should be told what the basic ingredients of <ea/>majimbo are. <ea/>Majimbo in a cocoon does not allow us to understand what it is all about. None of us is scared of anything as long as it is well explained. But if some of the issues about it are not explained it will be dangerous for Kenya. We cannot deal with a monster we have not been made to understand. Those who are preaching <ea/>majimbo should tell us what it is all about. What do they want from this <ea/>majimbo which they are talking about? What are they scared of? It has reached a stage we have to speak our minds. Why are people scared of the Kikuyu? We are making the Kikuyu a very important community by being scared of them. The Kikuyu are no different from other Kenyans. If they are involved in a political issue we can deal with them politically in the same way we deal with other Kenyans in political issues. But when we get scared of them all the time we are making them united and look impossible in Kenya, which is not the case.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am saying these things because I have been keeping quiet for the last nine months and my constituents are concerned because they cannot understand why I am keeping quiet in the wake of things that are not genuine for this nation.
With those remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Mutere: Thank you so much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to make a contribution to this very important Motion.
In supporting this Motion, I would like to come to the core of the Motion itself and that is finance. The present finance system, as far as the local authorities are concerned is very inadequate because most of the financing support has to get Ministerial approval and many times when some of the local authorities request for this approval they never get it on time. It is important that the local authorities are given a free hand to be able to go shopping even if need be internationally, for money for some of the projects that they deem fit for their own municipalities. As far as Siaya is concerned which is an upcoming municipality, there is a need that apart from what one hon. Member has raised, to develop even the health facilities, the housing facilities and even the power facilities within the municipality. For the young municipalities to be able to do this, they need adequate finances and they can only do it if they have a free hand to be able to prioritise some of the items that they feel are important for their needs.
While talking on the infrastructure, I would also like you to know that in places like Makadara Constituency which I represent, we have a very serious problem as far as the upgrading of the slums is concerned. This is the problem that the City Council has been addressing itself to but we have not had co-operation as far as the central Government is concerned because we need some of this land to be transferred to the people so that we can come up with the upgrading programmes. It is important for an institute like the City Council which has been in existence for years to be given a free hand to be able to upgrade some of these places. I am referring to places like Mukuru, Kaiyaba and Lungalunga. If you go there you wonder whether you are actually in Nairobi; you think that you are in a different place and yet this is part and parcel of the city under the sun. If you visit the area you really wonder whether you are in the city under the sun.
It is important that we do co-ordinate these activities, so that the <ea/>wananchi's plight is improved. After thirty years of Independence when you see some of the things that are still in existence you really wonder whether this Independence has really been beneficial to some of our people. We as leaders ought to work together so that we forget about parties. Our objective should be to serve the people of this nation and not divide them along the party lines.
Talking about some of the problems of the upcoming municipalities, education is one of them. We do know that some of these areas do have primary schools. I am also concerned about some places like my area. Some of the wards do not have secondary schools. We would like to be given an opportunity to be able to go looking for funds and be given Government land to be able to construct secondary schools. It will be an ideal situation where each would have a fully fledged educational system right from the nursery, primary and secondary level so that the students or the pupils would only leave the wards when they go to the university level. At slightly lower level of education, this could be done at the municipal level. I would like to appeal to the Minister concerned that they should consider seriously about letting the local authorities to have a free hand in getting funds to finance some of these facilities.
Talking about <ea/>majimboism, I think it is proper for some of us to air our views on it. One wonders whether we are applying double standards within our policies because here we are going out signing treaties with the East African community, signing treaties with KOMESA and back home we are divided. These stands are irreconcilable. We should have a definite straightforward policy whereby some of these could be put right, but we are doing the right thing at the wrong time. I do not think that this is the time we should be talking about <ea/>majimboism instead we should be talking about the unification not only of Kenya, but of the East Africa, Southern Africa and the whole continent for that matter. The World is coming to a new international world order; it is becoming a small village.
Looking at Africa from the international perspective, it becomes one of the many villages. If the whole of Africa becomes a village and we are talking about dividing Mombasa or some other places, one wonders on what level we are thinking and how serious one is in focusing his mind in as far as development is concerned. 
S1B058HK
MOTIONS
REVISION OF WAGE GUIDELINES
Mr. Anyona: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:-
THAT, in view of the recent economic changes which have affected prices of basic consumer goods, services and rents, and in view of the effects of liberalization process of the economy, this House resolves that:-
(a) the machinery for the revision of salaries, wages and other employment benefits for all workers be set in motion with a view to having adjustments made to compensate the workers for the rise in the cost of living;
(b) the wage guidelines be revised; and
(c) the deregistration of the Kenya Union of Civil Servants (K.U.C.S) and the University Staff Union (USU) be revised with a view to having the unions reinstated.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to begin by pointing out that the workers of this nation played a very vital role in the process of decolonization. It will be remembered that it was the workers and their leaders who were in the forefront in the struggle for Independence when the political leaders were either in prison or were not allowed to organize anything along political lines.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, usually, the role of workers in the economy is very central. It is the workers who produce the wealth of this nation. The workers of this nation work very hard for long hours, and yet, I do not think they are adequately compensated for the hard work they do for this nation. It is well known that the economy has largely been in the hands of foreigners who have not taken very serious interest in the plight of the workers in this country. In this era of multi-party democracy, it must be one of the basic roles of Parliament to ensure that workers are adequately compensated and provided with the necessary facilities to make their working conditions better than they are at the moment.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the liberalization process of the economy has very serious effect on the welfare of workers. The structural adjustment policies that have been imposed by the World Bank and the I.M.F, have not been clearly made known to the thousand workers of this nation and it is unfortunate that the Government has not come out clearly to say what they intend to do about the plight of workers in this country. It is believed that the Government is intending to retrench the Civil Service but we have not been told clearly what modalities are going to be put in place and what considerations are going to be made in this respect. So, we have to be extremely careful as a Parliament about these policies to ensure that our workers do not, as a result, suffer for no fault of their own. 
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the liberalization of the economy has set in motion a very high rate of inflation. The prices of all basic commodities like sugar, maize, meal, bread, and milk have soared. The house rents and transportation charges have also soared. If you look around town in the morning and afternoon, you would find that almost the entire population of this town walk to and from their places of work. This is because they are not able to afford the cost of transportation. They cannot afford the <ea/>Matatu and Bus fares, so they can only walk to work.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the whole principle of Independence was to improve the welfare and the living standards of the people. If people who, several years ago, could afford Bus fare, can no longer afford the same today, this means that the workers are worse off than they have been before and we, as a country and a Government, therefore, cannot feel very proud of that kind of development.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the structural adjustment programme has a very serious social and political effect on the workers. We know of cases in other countries where workers have had to take to the streets---
Mr. Kiliku: On a point of order Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister for Labour and Manpower Development has deliberately decided not to attend the proceedings of this House today.
Mr. Speaker: Order Mr. Kiliku! I think we do have the Assistant Minister present in the House.
Mr. Anyona: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister had the courtesy of informing me earlier that he was responding to the Motion but hon. Kiliku is quite right in expressing his concern about the Minister's absence from the House. He should be here to hear what is being said.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we as a country and as a Government ought to be very proud of the workers. This is so because although they have suffered for along time, they have not done what workers in other countries have done. They have not taken to the streets to demonstrate over prices of food and so on. As we were saying last time, it would be dangerous for the Government and for us as a country, to take that goodwill on part of the workers in this country for granted. I am saying this because, if the workers are pushed to the limit, then clearly, we would be faced with the kind of chaos that has taken place in other countries. Therefore, this Parliament must be very much concerned about the level of salaries, wages, and services that are given to the workers in this country.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when we talk about raising the salaries of the workers - and we had this argument the other day - my argument is that even raising workers salaries by 100 per cent, might not be good enough. What should be done, as far as we are concerned, is to ensure that the workers receive salaries that are in line with their productivity. What tends to happen is that even where companies are making a lot of profit, the workers are underpaid. We must be concerned to ensure that small enterprises do not collapse because of wages that are not in line with their level of production. But, in majority of cases, the employers can pay higher salaries or give better wages and benefits to their workers. However, that does not happen simply because I think we as Government and a as Parliament, have not given our workers adequate support.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the rents of houses in this city and elsewhere in the country, you can hardly find a place where one small cost less than Kshs.1,000/=. What is the salary of an ordinary worker in this country? Kshs.1,500 is considered a very high salary and yet Kshs.1,000/= goes to rent and one really wonder what is left to the worker for his livelihood. What we are saying is that it is not realistic to say that: "let us have 100 per cent salary increase". What we are saying is that workers must be paid in accordance with what they produce. The employers should not enjoy super profits when the workers are suffering.
Today, workers of this nation, do not enjoy any employment benefits like free medical treatment as it used to be the case in the past. If you went to the private companies, you would find that they have stopped all these things so that workers are unable now to get medical services. When workers go to government hospitals, they are required to pay but they do not have the money. This country as I have said, has retrogressed instead of progressing in terms of the improvement of the welfare of the people.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, dealing with the question of the wage guidelines, I consider them to be a conspiracy between the Government and the employer. This is so because we believe in bargaining and since people should bargain on what is available I do not know what interest Government has in limiting the workers' bargaining power to get the best benefits they can get from the employer? What is even worse is that we have gone to an extent of curtailing the freedom of the worker by refusing him the right to strike. I would like to hear from the Minister for Labour and Manpower Development why they believe that wage guidelines are necessary particularly in the process of liberalization. How can you liberalize other aspects of economy to allow the manufactures and others to raise prices and yet you do not allow the workers to bargain for the best position that they can get from the employer? If they are not abolished then the Ministry must put a very good case otherwise it is this kind of thing that creates industrial unrest. We must make employers in this nation, be they Kenyans or foreigners, to understand that they have to contend with the workers. They cannot expect the Government to protect them against our own workers.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I was saying we would like the wage guidelines to be revised but we would, in fact like them to be totally abolished, unless there is good explanation on why they should be maintained. I am made to understand that those wage guidelines are the arguments of the Treasury. I do not know the link between the Treasury and the Ministry of Labour and Manpower Development in this respect, because the Treasury has its own consideration for regulating the economy. But the Ministry of Labour and Manpower Development was set up to ensure that workers are protected and in this case, the Ministry of Labour and Manpower Development is merely used by the Treasury as a tool to curtail the freedom and rights of workers to bargain for the best working conditions that they can obtain.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very surprising that there appears to be no bargaining between the unions and employers going on. There was a lot of agitation for increase of salaries but everything seems to have died. I would like to hear from the Government what is going on. We did hear the Ministry saying that unions should start negotiations with their employers but nothing seems to be happening. The workers seem to have been lost because the labour union movement is also in a mess. I will speak on it later.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the trade unions have the freedom of association under the Constitution. It is, therefore, not right for the Government or anybody else to create bottlenecks in that process. Many a time, when workers are trying to negotiate with their employers and the employers become difficult for one reason or another, mainly because they enjoy the patronage of the Government which protects them, they do not listen to the workers. When the workers fail to fit in then immediately the Police are called. This is an infringement of the freedom or the Constitutional right of workers to bargain with the employer and if the employer does not respond to the employee's demand, then the workers have the right of withdrawal of labour.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to come to the question of the de-registration of the Kenya Union of Civil Servants (K.U.C.S) and the University Staff Union (U.S.U). There has never really been any good reason for the de-registration of these two unions. We would like the Government, particularly now, to be in the forefront in the protection of the rights of our people. When the Government, which is the biggest employer, denies its own workers the right of representation then I do not know what is expected of the rest of the employers who may not necessarily care for the welfare of our workers.
S1B059HK
MOTIONS
AMENDMENT TO THE LIQUOR ACT 
THAT, in view of the economic problems faced by the subsistence farmers in rural areas who rely heavily on crops such as millet, sorghum, and coconut for making local brew such as <ea/>busaa and palm wine to earn a living, and taking into account that brewing of traditional liquor is prohibited while its consumption is not; this House urges the Government:-
(a)	to lift the ban on traditional liquor brewing, and
(b)	to amend the Traditional Liquor Licensing Act to allow small scale breweries as well as home brewing for domestic consumption.
Mr.Speaker: Order, I think hon. Anyona was continuing.
Mr.Anyona: Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the House rose last time, I was seconding this Motion and I had covered the question of manufacture of traditional liquor.
Mr.Speaker, Sir, I was going on to say that the consumption of traditional liquor does not require any licence, but manufacture for sale requires licensing under Section 7 of the Traditional Liquor Act, Cap.122. The appropriate licences are provided for under the schedule from L1 to L7.
Mr.Speaker: Order! Order! As the hon. Anyona has the Floor, the hon. Ndotto over there has the Floor illegally. Also, Members withdrawing from the Chamber are doing so in a fashion that is disrupting the proceedings of the House.
Shall all the Members who wish to withdraw from the House proceed to do so with due honour? All those other Members who wish to remain should take their seats.
Proceed Mr. Anyona.
Mr.Anyona: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Section 8 of the Act provides for the manner in which application may be made for the manufacture of traditional liquor for sale. What we are saying is that if traditional liquor was prohibited, you would not then require to apply for a licence to manufacture it for sale because that would be prohibited.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, section 15 of the Act provides for a temporary licence, whereby one can brew traditional liquor for sale under temporary circumstances. Section 25 of the Act provides for the offences that are committed under the law. In that section, it is an offence for any person not being the holder of an appropriate or temporary licence to manufacture for sale, or to have in his possession for sale any traditional liquor. If you manufacture for sale, or you sell, or you are in possession and are intending to sell without a licence, then that is an offence and not otherwise.
Section 25, Sub-section 2, provides that if you advertise that you have a licence to sell and yet you do not, then that is an offence. Section 25, Sub-section 3, provides that if you manufacture excessive quantity, more than you need for consumption, then that also is an offence.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Section 31, Sub-section 1, states very clearly that it is only an offence if the person has any traditional liquor upon any premises of his in a quantity greater than might be reasonably required for consumption by himself or his family.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very clear that you do not need any licence when you manufacture or brew traditional liquor for consumption. However, we have very peculiar circumstances where the police go and arrest people, claiming that they were brewing and consuming traditional liquor contrary to the law. In my constituency there was a recent case where the Administration Police arrested four people and charged them under this section. I want hon. Sunkuli to pay attention to what I am saying. In court, these people were charged under Cap. 125 and yet the Traditional Liquor Licensing Act is Section 122. The particular case I am refereeing(sic) to is criminal case No.785 of 1993 at Nyamira District Magistrate's Court. That tells you how absurd the law is.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to touch on the enforcement of the law---
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the consultations are very loud and I cannot understand why Members are not interested in this matter where members of the public are being harassed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Section 30, sub-section 1, which provides for enforcement of the Act, reads as follows:
"Any administrative officer, any police officer above the rank of inspector and any other police officer having written authority from a magistrate, may enter upon and search any premises at any time when he has reasonable grounds to believe that traditional liquor is being manufactured..."
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Anyona. I will now propose the Question.
The Assistant Minister for Commerce and Industry (Mr. Osogo): Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Motion. If it did not have drafting faults, I would have supported it to the hilt. It is a very important Motion to some of us, and I would have supported it. However, it has drafting faults and that is why I reserve my support.
The drafting faults have been indicated by the <?/>Seconder of the Motion, in that the Motion is requesting for the amendment of the Traditional Liquor Licensing Act, Cap.122 and part (b) of the Motion is superfluous in that it is requesting that the Traditional Liquor Licensing Act be amended to allow small-scale brewers as well as home brewing. As you have heard from the <?/>Seconder of the Motion, these two are provided for in the existing Act and that is why I say that the two are superfluous.
In fact I had the opportunity of pointing out to the hon. Mover of the Motion that there will be difficulties in supporting the Motion, particularly by Members on this side of the House, who really want the brewing of traditional liquor to be uniform. We know that there are some parts of the country where it is allowed and not others. I was definitely going to support it if it did not have part (b) in it.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would have thought, and I am not allowed to amend it, that the Motion would have stopped at part (a) with a small addition at the end, after removing the word 'and', of the words 'in selected areas'. It should have read "to lift the ban on traditional liquor brewing in selected areas".
Why am I saying in selected areas? All of us know how the ban came to be imposed on this traditional liquor. Some of us also who have worked in various parts of Kenya know how the ban came about. When traditional brew had not been banned, we used to see people in some communities who used to sell their cattle and <ea/>shambas to get money to buy traditional liquor. We know that that was one of the causes why the ban on traditional liquor was enforced. In some areas the ban should not have been enforced.
The Mover might ask why I said that part "b" of the Motion is unnecessary. If we look into the existing Act, Schedule 1, you will find that if one wants to get a licence to brewing traditional liquor, one is required to fill in Form PL3. If one wants to brew liquor on a small scale, one is also required to fill in Form PL5, Schedule 1. I do not know what the reaction of the Government is going to be, but I had reasons for supporting the Motion if it did not have faults in drafting.
I was educated with money raised from traditional liquor brewed by my mother. My elder brother and I would not have been able to get education if my mother had not brewed traditional liquor for commercial purposes. If it was not there, today I would not have been standing in this House.
I know that in Nairobi, people brew this local liquor. If you go to Kibera and Kariobangi on Saturdays, you will find people drinking this traditional brew. Why then can people in Bunyala not drink it? I know for certain that in parts of Machakos this traditional liquor has been officially allowed. So, I am pleading that people in Bunyala be allowed to brew this liquor. That is why I think a reasonable hon. Member from the Opposition should have amended the Motion to read "in selected areas" just as Nairobi and Machakos are selected areas.
My constituents are fishermen and fishing is just the same as mining gold. The miner goes underground very unsure of whether he will come back alive or dead. So, when a fisherman goes to fish he does not know whether he will come out alive or dead. When he comes out, he is very tired from fishing---
Mr. Ndetei: On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is in order for hon. Ndicho to be reading the Society magazine here in the Chamber with his feet up as if he is sitting in his sitting room?
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ndotto): Certainly it is out of order to do so because magazines and newspapers are not allowed in the Chamber.
Mr. Ndicho: Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was fascinated by an article titled The burden of being a Kikuyu appearing in the Society magazine.
The Temporary Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ndotto): Hon. Ndicho, you are even making this matter worse. Please stop reading that magazine.
The Assistant Minister for Commerce and Industry (Mr. Osogo): Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was saying since my constituents are fishermen, when they come out from the lake, thank God, at least they come out alive, and they would like to socialize by enjoying some kind of brew. I would like the Minister of State, Office of the President, to note this. When fishermen come out of the water, they go to hide in an island and drink <ea/>chang'aa. On their way come back, their canoes capsize and they drown because they are already drunk. I do not want my constituents to continue dying in that manner. I am sure, when the Minister stands up to reply, he will tell me how he is going to stop the fishermen from taking <ea/>chang'aa on an island where no policeman can reach them to the detriment of their health.
I would like to refute the argument that traditional liquor is usually <-/unhygienically> brewed. I was elected as a representative of ADC in 1956. At that time, there were health inspectors who used to inspect the beer halls to ensure that water was warm and that utensils were washed with hot water. A civilized government can manage that if a colonial government could do that. I do not see how we can fail through our health officers to supervise the cleanliness of brewing this kind of liquor in the rural areas.
I am aware that there are areas where people are brewing this liquor and if I am challenged to mention them, I will do so. My plea to the Office of the President is that they should consider certain areas where this liquor will not cause chaos or havoc. The law provides that people will have appropriate times for taking this liquor. If the Opposition does not amend this Motion, then the Government should be able to amend it the way I have proposed so that our people are provided with this facility. At the moment, an ordinary person cannot afford to buy beer. A half-kilo Kimbo tin of <ea/>busaa costs about Kshs 5. That tin costs the eight-cornered coin. Once you take that, you can rest.
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: On a point of order, Mr Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to say that the Kshs 5 coin has eight corners when it has seven corners?
The Assistant Minister for Commerce and Industry (Mr. Osogo): I accept that correction. When one drinks the half-kilo Kimbo tin of <ea/>busaa, one gets satisfied. One does not even need any lunch.
With these remarks, I reserve my support for the Motion.
S1B060HK
MOTIONS
AMENDMENT TO THE LIQUOR ACT II 
I think it is also important that we should look at the traditional liquor as a vital source of income not just for the many poor in the rural areas but also for the local authorities. It is an undisputable fact that while the brewing of these liquors existed, a lot of local authorities at least earned a sizeable income from what we called the "brewing houses", through the sale of traditional liquors. This is because there were licences and other fees derived from the brewing of <ea/>busaa and other such liquors. More importantly, let us not lose sight of the fact that in many places, local people do not have commodities in which to trade and these local liquors have been the main source of income for many of our poor parents and relatives at home. It is also a known fact that if it were not for this traditional liquor, many of us might not have been able to go to school. Many of our poor parents have had to rely entirely on the brewing of <ea/>busaa and other liquors to be able to send their children to school. The banning of these liquors has overly undermined the ability of many of our people to educate their children.
It is a known fact that in places like the district where I come from, we do not have any cash crops to rely on for such important requirements as school fees. Indeed, it is these traditional liquors that have enabled many of our people do some little business and be able to get some income in order to meet requirements such as school fees and so on. So, I do think there is a case for the whole issue to be reconsidered and the brewing of <ea/>busaa allowed as one of the businesses to be carried out.
Right now, you will find that even other businesses such as fish mongering, which used to do well does not do well. This is because our rural women who play a major role by securing food for the family are unable to do that. Since they cannot now generate income from traditional liquor, they are unable to <-/sucure> vital foodstuffs like fish, which provide the necessary vitamins.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think if the amendment being asked for is put in place, we may be able to revive this particular business and, in the process, promote other businesses which are allied to these liquors.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is also important to unban these brews for another reason, namely that it is a known fact that in the neighbouring countries, notably Tanzania and Uganda, they have what has come to be known as their national spirits. These are the Konyaki in the case of Tanzania and Waragi in the case of Uganda. I think <-_these><+_this> is already proving to be a reliable source of income for these countries. I am sure if Kenya were to go ahead and allow the brewing of <ea/>busaa and the rest of <-/>of it, which is a more reliable source of income than some of those spirits, Kenya could as well be able to come out with its own spirit that would be quite a reliable source of revenue for this country. If we are going to diversify our sources of revenue, and I would advocate that this is going to be another reliable source of revenue for this country, then, for goodness' sake we should go all out and produce it by getting the necessary mechanism in place, so that we will be able to build a reliable industry based on this particular source.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Sunkuli): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to respond to this Motion on behalf of the Government.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to begin by saying that this Motion is based on the wrong premises. As you will realise, that part (b) of the Motion says:-
"to amend the Traditional Liquor Licensing Act to allow small-scale breweries as well as home brewing for domestic consumption."
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the brewing, sale and consumption of traditional liquor is governed by Cap.122. The reason why I say this Motion is based on the wrong premises is that Section 8 of Cap.122 provides for the licensing of small-scale breweries and indeed for large-scale breweries. The second Schedule of the same Act explains this further. So, if today we amend this Traditional Liquor Licensing Act, it will, in fact, have a negative effect. This is because already the law of this country allows the licensing of small-scale breweries. So, for that primary reason, this Motion should be rejected because it is based on the wrong premise.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is also a second reason why this Motion is based on the wrong premise. You also realise that part (a) of the Motion says:-
"to lift the ban on traditional liquor brewing--"
This ban is non-existent; there has never been any ban on the traditional liquor brewing and licensing.
Mr. Shikuku: On a point of order, Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to mislead the House by saying that there is no such ban when we know that His Excellency the President, immediately after taking over the reigns of power, banned all these things? Is he in order to mislead the House? You cannot even brew liquor for circumcision. You know when you want to circumcise your children you have to brew some beer for the old men, but we cannot do that now because of that ban. If one wants to brew some liquor one must seek permission from the assistant chief.
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Sunkuli): Mr. Speaker, Sir, there has never been a ban on the brewing of traditional liquor. I want to explain the position. What happened is that there has been a suspension on the licensing of brewing of traditional liquor. This was from February, 1979, when the Government received several complaints from members of public that the brewing, sale and consumption of traditional liquor was not being done in accordance with hygienic conditions. The places where the local liquors were brewed and the items used were <-/unhygienic>. All these were seen as health hazards to the consumers and other residents.
Other complaints that were received from the public also indicated that people neglected their families. In fact, I have been a personal witness of families that have diminished because of the consumption of traditional liquor and---
Mrs. Ndetei: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to say that families are diminishing because of the consumption of traditional liquor when we know that there are also families diminishing because of the consumption of whisky and even beer from the Breweries?
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Sunkuli): I am quite in order, Mr Speaker, Sir, because today we are discussing about traditional liquor. I am saying that I am a personal witness of families which started having matrimonial problems because family members could not control themselves because of this liquor which was readily available and they could not raise money to pay school fees for their children. These are complaints which the Government received. There were some shocking cases of people who neglected their families and their matrimonial responsibilities because they were always out on drinking sprees.
Mrs. Ndetei: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister aware that there is a drink now which is being sold in Central Province and in Embu called Cantata which is killing those who consume it within six months after taking it? Is he aware that the brewing of this drink is being licensed by chiefs in those areas? The chief issues licenses immediately after they are applied for but they cannot license the brewing of other liquors.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Hon. Ndetei, you know you have filed a Question on that. Because you have failed a Question, you are probably anticipating the reply you will get. I think it is out of order for you, Mrs. Ndetei, to do that. I urge the Assistant Minister not to respond at this time but to prepare to properly respond to the Question filed by hon. Ndetei when time comes. I would also urge hon. Ndetei to be prepared to question the Assistant Minister further when time is due.
Mr. Shikuku: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My point of order is in connection with the repeated allegation by the Assistant Minister to effect that consumption of traditional liquor leads to breakage in marriages when we know that consumption of whisky and beer causes the same problems. Can he prove that once you take traditional liquor then your marriage just disintegrates?
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Sunkuli): Mr. Speaker, Sir, traditional liquor has two qualities that make it one of the highest contributors to matrimonial and domestic problems that we have. In the first place there is no longer anything traditional about the consumption of traditional liquor.
When I was a young man---
Mr. Shikuku: You are still young!
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Sunkuli): Thank you very much. When I was younger than I am today, under our Maasai customs, you had to wait until you were a mature man with a stable family before you were allowed to drink. But you will find that nowadays, there is nothing traditional about the consumption of traditional liquor; it is being consumed by juveniles and by people who cannot in fact sustain the drinking of alcohol. This liquor is no longer being consumed traditionally. Secondly, traditional liquor is so readily available and so cheap that we are, in fact, ending up intoxicating our people by making it very readily available to them. Indeed, there is no amount of amendments that can make this Motion useful.
Mr. Raila: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I did not want to interrupt the Assistant Minister. But is he in order to mislead the House that traditional liquor, which has got a very low alcohol content, is much more addictive or intoxicating than the spirits and wines that have got a higher alcohol content?
Mr. Speaker: Order! Those are points of argument, and I think the Assistant Minister should be allowed to put his points across and then the other hon. Members will get a chance to demolish them.
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Sunkuli): What I also know Mr. Speaker, Sir, is that if you want to make <ea/>busaa to be very intoxicating you can still do it by raising the alcohol content. It is not a question of the alcohol content but the amount that is consumed. The amount consumed has also the ability of raising the alcohol content.
I was on the verge of saying that as a result of these complaints the Government asked the district commissioners to investigate whether indeed this was true. Those complaints were discovered to be true. Therefore public <ea/>barazas were held throughout the country and the views of the public were elicited, and these views led to a consensus and a decision by the people of this country that the licensing of brewing of traditional liquor should be suspended. The majority of them did it except, of course, Nairobi Province. This was the only province which voted against the suspension of the licensing of traditional liquor.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, today, in this country, we have decided to suspend the licensing of the brewing of this liquor. What I have said is not just the basis of our ban. But hon. Members know that under Section 10 of the Chief's Authority Act, the chief who is the person who understands the local environment can in fact make subsidiary rule to govern the brewing, the sale and the drinking of traditional liquor.
S1BHN01K
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 
CRITERIA FOR APPOINTING PARASTATAL BOSSES 
Mr. Wambua asked the Minister of State, Office of the President, what criteria the government uses in the appointment of Executive and Non-Executive Chairmen of State Corporations.
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Onyancha): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. The appointment of a chairman, whether Executive or Non-Executive of a State Corporation, is done by the Government in compliance with the provisions of State Corporations Act, which empowers the President to make such appointments. In making such appointments due consultations are made with the respective parent Ministries. Due consideration is also given to possession of the necessary qualifications which may include experience and the needs of the respective organization. The need to consider suitable persons from the various parts of the country is also taken into account. The nature of the work determines whether the appointment is going to be executive or non-executive.
Mr. Wambua: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Assistant Minister for his good reply to this Question. I think he does understand very well that these appointees are the people who have retired from the Civil Service and they earn a lot of money in form of pensions and the lumpsum amounts given on retirement. These people retire when they have reached the top grades in the salary scale and are appointed to these posts and earn a salary of KSh. 30,000/= per month while we still face the problem of unemployment of young school leavers.
Can something be done so that these people who are appointed to these posts are relieved of their jobs in order to create vacancies for the young people who are jobless?
Mr. Onyancha: Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I have already indicated, sometimes these appointments need such experience as is held by some of people who have retired. However, the sentiments which have been expressed by the hon. Member will be taken into account in future.
Mr. Aden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Arising from the Assistant <-_Ministers><+_Minister's> reply, can he tell this House how many State Corporations are run by Executive and Non-Executive Chairmen?
Mr. Onyancha: Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is not part of the original Question neither is it related to it and as such I cannot react to it. If it were, I would have gone in to find out and bring the information to this House.
Mr. Malebe: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Question is asking the criteria used to appoint these chairmen. Could the Assistant Minister detail the standards of qualification, job description as well as common jobs to be performed by these chairmen irrespective of the different types of parastatals before they are appointed?
Mr. Onyancha: Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is difficult to unify their terms and as I had already indicated, it will depend on the particular organization that we are talking about but definitely experience is a common factor as I indicated earlier.
Mr. Makhanu: Mr. Speaker, Sir, turning back to the issue raised by hon. Aden which is quite relevant here, from the Assistant <-_Ministers><+_Minister's> personal knowledge could he tell us what action his office takes against those chairmen who are not executive but do behave like executive chairmen? For example, the gentleman in Nzoia Sugar Company behaves like an executive chairman when he is not. What action do you take against such chairmen?
Mr. Onyancha: Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are not aware that the Chairman mentioned behaves like an executive chairman. If he does and we get proper and full information we will look into the matter and take any necessary action. But we have no such information.
Mr. Falana: Mr. Speaker, Sir, can the Assistant Minister tell this House whether retirement from the civil service is one of the qualifications needed to enable someone to be appointed to the post of executive chairman of a State corporation? How can a person retire from the Civil Service and then get re-employed by the same Government?
Mr. Onyancha: Mr. Speaker, Sir, retirement from the Civil Service is not one of the qualifications taken into consideration when appointing chairmen of parastatals. However, some of these retired people are considered, as a matter of fact, to have some of the skills we need in these particular organizations.
Mr. Wambua: These people are paid their benefits when they retire. A person may earn about KShs. 7,000/- in the form of pension and on top of that he may be earning another KShs. 30,000/- from another source every month. Could the Assistant Minister assure me that they are looking into this matter because we have a lot of people who are loitering without employment?
Mr. Onyancha: Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I indicated earlier, what has been pointed out, that is lack of employment, will be considered during future appointments. I gave the hon. Member that assurance.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Jalang'o's Question.
NEW COMPUTERS FOR GOVERNMENT COMPUTER CENTRE 
Mr. Jalang'o asked the Vice-President and Minister for Finance in view of the current old age of computers installed at the Government Computer Centre, when the Ministry will replace these outdated and frequently breaking down equipment to ensure the timely processing of teachers and civil servants payrolls, pension schemes and other applications.
Mr. Speaker: Anybody here from the Office of the Vice-President and Ministry of Finance? Next Question.
N.H.I.F. CARD FOR MR. MUIA 
Mr. Wambua asked the Minister for Health why the management of National Health Insurance Fund (N.H.I.F.) has failed to issue the card for Mr. G.K. Muia Fund No. 4876, and when it will be issued.
The Assistant Minister for Health (Mr. Ogur): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
In the records of the N.H.I.F. there are four people with fairly close similar names but with different Identity Card numbers. Their names are as follows: Messrs. Muia Gideon K.; Gideon Kitele Muia; Muia Gedeon Kititu; Muia Gregory K. Each has a different Fund Number. Their I.D. Card Numbers are different. Except for the last one, Muia Gregory K., none of the above named persons has a Fund No. 4876 as the hon. Member has stated. In any case the N.H.I.F. Numbers usually range between six to seven digits. I do therefore advise hon. Wambua to request Mr. Muia to call on the Director of the National Hospital Insurance Fund with his details and he will be assisted.
Mr. Wambua: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the first name is the one I had asked about, Mr. Muia Gideon Kioko.
Mr. Ogur: Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, Mr. Muia Gideon K. has N.H.I.F. No. 058246 and his I.D. Number is 0060095/50. That closes the chapter.
Mr. Wambua: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Assistant Minister for that reply. But why has it taken the Fund three years without Mr. G.K. Muia getting a card from the N.H.I.F.?
Mr. Ogur: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not aware that it has taken him that long to get it.
Mr. Wambua: It is upon the Fund to post the card to the applicant and not for the applicant to go for the card. Is it necessary for him to travel all the <-/OM> from Kibauni Location to Nairobi to collect that card when it can be posted to him?
Mr. Ogur: Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is absolutely unnecessary for him to travel from Kibauni to Nairobi but I think it is necessary when there is delay somewhere. If three years were too many he should have gone to the N.H.I.F. headquarters earlier than that.
Mr. Wambua: I want the Assistant Minister to assure me that the certificate is there. If it is there can it be posted to the gentleman so that he does not have to incur unnecessary travelling expenses to come and collect the certificate.
Mr. Ogur: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if he gives us his correct address we will do that.
TITLE DEEDS FOR MIKINDANI AND CHAANI TENANTS 
Mr. Kiliku asked the Minister for Lands and Housing:-
(a) why the Ministry has failed to issue title deeds to the tenants of Mikindani and Chaani Site and Service Scheme; and
(b) when these title deeds will be issued.
The Minister for Lands and Housing (Mr. Mbela): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
My Ministry has not failed to issue title deeds to tenants of Mikindani and Chaani Site and Service Scheme because such a request has not been received by the Ministry from the Municipal Council of Mombasa which is administering the two schemes.
The title deeds will be issued when a formal request to that effect is submitted to my Ministry by the Municipal Council of Mombasa.
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I asked this same Question last year and the Minister gave the same reply he has given today. He also promised to find out from the Mombasa Municipal Council why there was a delay in processing these things. What action is the Minister taking because his Ministry is responsible for issuing title deeds and not the Municipal Council of Mombasa?
Mr. Mbela: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member is quite right. I made that promise last year. I indeed contacted the Mombasa Municipal Council and asked them whether they needed assistance from the Ministry by way of surveying and sub-division of the plots and they told us that they did not need our assistance. Since that time they have not made any request for title deeds to be made available to them for onward transmission to the tenants.
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Mombasa Municipal Council advertised the tender and Messrs. Kasi and Surveyors won the tender at KShs. 3.6 million. But one of the officials of the Municipal Council demanded a kick-back of KShs. 500,000/- from that amount. The Surveyor refused to carry out the work of surveying. Could the Minister direct the Surveyor to continue with the work for that amount of KShs. 3.6 million without paying kick-backs to anybody?
Mr. Mbela: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not know what evidence the hon. Member has about the kick-back allegation. I am in no position to give directives to the Municipal Council of Mombasa to take the action hon. Kiliku is asking for. That request ought to be directed to the Minister for Local Government.
Mr. Kiliku: I have evidence because I have a letter here which awarded the job to Messrs. Kasi and Surveyors at KShs. 3.6 million but he said that he could not continue with the job because he was told by one of the local councillors to pay KShs. 500,000.00 out of that money. He said that if he did that he would not get anything out of the job. That is why he could not continue with the job. I do not have the letter with me here now. But could the Minister direct that the work should continue?
Mr. Mbela: Mr. Speaker Sir, I said that I am not competent to direct the Municipal Council of Mombasa since they come under the Minister for Local Government. As far as the other details are concerned, I would suggest that the questioner makes that information available to the Minister for Local Government because even if he gave it to me I would not know how to interpret the `kick-back' that he is talking about.
Mr. Aden: Mr. Speaker Sir, it appears my colleague hon Kiliku has made a very serious allegation which entails corruption. It is my feeling that House should not let it go without proper substantiation. Can he give evidence that there was a demand of 10 % as a `kick-back'?
Mr. Kiliku: I did not say 10 %. I said shs. 500,000. That is what I was told and that is why the work is not being done. The letter to give out the work is there. There is no other evidence apart from that.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Hon members it is within the right of hon members to speak and shout whatever they want. 
S1BHN02K
QUESTIONS BY PRIVATE NOTICE
CATTLE RUSTLING IN KINNA LOCATION 
Mr. Jaldesa: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask <-_a><+_the> Minister of State the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) Is the Minister aware that some cattle were stolen from Kinna Location of Garba-Tula Division on 17th March, 1992?
(b) If the answer to part (a) is in the affirmative, how many of the said stolen cattle have since been recovered and how many culprits have been apprehended?
The Minister of State, Office of the President (Mr. Kanyi): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) Yes, I am aware of the incident.
(b) A total of 129 head of cattle were recovered by the security personnel on 20.3.92. No arrests have been made so far.
Mr. Jaldesa: Mr. Speaker, about 2000 head of cattle was stolen from Kinna, which happens to border Meru. If no animals are recovered during this time of drought we are foreseeing a lot of danger. As you are aware Somalians have no Government now and are flocking here with guns. Is the Minister satisfied with the action taken so far? I know members of the Kenya Army, Anti-Stock Theft Unit and Police are involved and if they cannot recover cattle stolen we are in danger. What assurance is the Minister giving on the matter?
Mr. Kanyi: Mr. Speaker, I would like to give additional information, which may help the hon. Member. On 18.3.92 at 4.30 a.m. a report was received at Garba-Tula Police Station that 1,000 head of cattle were stolen at Kinna Location by 22 armed bandits. A team of security personnel, assisted by a chopper was instantly dispatched to the scene. On arriving at the scene of the incident the security personnel discovered that a second attack had already been conducted by the rustlers who had stolen another 600 head of cattle and killed three people, namely Abdi Hussein Omar, Abdi Noor Farah and Yafi Kenai Hussein. The security personnel combed the surrounding area in pursuit of the bandits. On 20.3.92 at Kipsanandi Game Reserve they recovered the 129 head of cattle. The operation is still continuing.
Mr. Jaldesa: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Minister satisfied with the progress being made in this case? On our part, we are not satisfied at all.
Mr. Kanyi: Mr. Speaker, I am satisfied because a lot of security personnel from the Kenya Army, Kenya Police, Administration Police and Kenya Wildlife Service, who also have at their disposal the services of a chopper, have been deployed in this area. I am quite satisfied with the progress they are making because they are still pursuing the bandits.
Mr. Falana: Mr. Speaker, recently the whole country went mad over the Rift Valley tribal clashes, but the rampant tribal clashes in Isiolo, Tana River and certain parts of Garissa seem to receive very little attention. The cattle stolen from these areas are not taken to Somalia, but are brought to Dandora for slaughter. The Minister is misleading the House by saying he is satisfied. The people in these areas are more used to the bandits than to the security personnel and know that it is a total mistake for a resident to report the whereabouts of bandits because the moment you do that they will come back and kill you. Could the Minister, therefore, give a serious assurance this practice will stop once for all as has 
[Mr. Falana]
been done in the past?
Mr. Kanyi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Government is greatly concerned about what is happening in this part of our country. You can see the number of security personnel that has already been despatched to the area. In actual fact, the hon. Member is aware that there are very thick forests in the area, and it is very difficult to get to some of the places.
Mr. Falana: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Falana, the Minister is still answering your point of order! Continue, Mr. Kanyi.
Mr. Kanyi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is not the first time that this kind of thing has happened, and the Government is doing all it can to contain the situation. Through the co-operation of the Government, the local people have been enabled to have homeguards in their areas. I would like to appeal to the hon. Member to liaise with other hon. Members from the area and the neighbouring districts to ensure that security is maintained.
Mr. Falana: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister is misleading this House and the nation at large. When he says that the area is thickly forested, I am surprised because that area is a desert. Where the hell does the forest come from? There is no question of forests; the fact is just that the security is not all that satisfying. We want real assurance because people are finding it very rough. Livestock is gone and human lives have gone. A week does not pass without 20 or 30 people from Tana River, Hola and Isiolo dying. These are human lives and we want real assurance now from the Minister.
Mr. Kanyi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have said that the security personnel is still there; they have not been withdrawn. The security officers are still pursuing the bandits and we have reason to believe that they will be apprehended and the cattle recovered.
Mr. Speaker: We must move on now.
Mr. Jaldesa: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Jaldesa. The Minister has said that all manner of security personnel, including the army and the police are still pursuing the bandits, and that is enough assurance unless you can prove it is not true. If you cannot prove otherwise, then we have to continue.
Mr. Jaldesa: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: No! I have ruled that there are not going to be any more points of order on this matter. We still have two more Questions to go. Mr. Kiliku's Question.
REASONS FOR EVICTING MIKINDANI RESIDENTS
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Local Government the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) Why did Mombasa Municipal Council issue quit notices on 18th and 19th March, 1992, and directed the residents of Gona Hola, Vitengeni and Bangladesh villages in Mikindani to demolish their houses within 14 days?
(b) Could the Minister order this council to allocate the plots to the said residents and revoke the quit notices?
The Assitant Minister for Local Government (Mr. Wagura): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) The quit notices were given because those people were settling on the council's land illegally.
(b) The Minister cannot allocate the plots to those illegal settlers until the right procedure has been followed. That means that when it comes to giving out those plots there is a procedure to follow and the people affected are free to apply like anybody else.
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Mombasa District Development Committee has recommended that all squatters in the district be settled. Therefore, could the Minister revoke these quit notices because these people should be settled where they are living at the moment as per the district development committee recommendations?
Mr. Wagura: Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the first place, those people are there illegally. Secondly, some of the squatters had been allocated plots which they sold. Some of the allottees built and completed their houses but, instead of living in those houses they rented them and went to squat. That is why we are saying that we need the hon. Member's co-operation to ensure that those people move. The Minister does not mind giving them a month's notice instead of 14 days' notice.
Mr. Kiliku: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has said that some squatters were allocated plots which they later on sold. Can he substantiate that claim because it is wrong according to me?
Mr. Wagura: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I meant what I have said. I have a list here including a Mr. John. M. Mwadiga, Mr. Kyengo, Mr. Kazungu, Mr. Hussein, Mr. Salim, Mr. Meli Ngute and others. The list is long. Those people were allocated plots and they sold them. Those who have not sold their plots have built houses and rented them instead of settling on them. We are trying to discourage that kind of thing.
Mr. Kubo: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister is misleading this House because I know the first man whose name he read personally and I know that he is a resident of Mikindani. Is it not true that the Assistant Minister is misleading the House since I know that the first man he mentioned has not plot in the area?
Mr. Wagura: This particular person, Mr. Speaker, is among those who have put up houses but are squatting in the affected area.
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has only mentioned six people whereas he should have substantiated by say who was allocated which plot and sold it to who. I am talking of 1,200 residents and the Assistant Minister mentioned only six names and said that they are going to be considered along with the others. Who are these others? Wakubwa?
Mr. Wagura: Mr. Speaker, Sir, you appreciate the fact that the land in this country does not belong to any particular ethnic group. If today the council decided to give out those plots, everybody in this country would be entitled to apply.
Mr. Kiilu: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Question has said that he is talking of more than 1,200 people. Could the Assistant Minister tell us the number of people whose names are in that piece of paper he read?
Mr. Wagura: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to know what interest the hon. Member has in this matter. Of course, I will lay the list on the Table. 
Mr. Kiilu: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I asked my question <-/becaue> the Assistant Minister simply mentioned the names of six people. Can we be told how many names are in that list?
Mr. Wagura: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the list is very long. I have just given an example of what is happening. Even if it was only one person who was there illegally, that is enough to nullify their squatting on that land.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It has become the habit of the Ministry of Local Government that whenever highly placed people want plots go around hunting for them and when they find areas where poor people are settled -- And we saw this happening at Muoroto in Nairobi here. Can we be told clearly here whether there are some landless people in that area and how many they are and where he expects to settle them? How many of them have plots elsewhere and are refusing to leave that place?
Mr. Wagura: Mr. Speaker, Sir, that particular scheme was started between 1979 and 1980. At the time there were quite a number of applicants, out of whom 400 qualified for allocation of plots. The argument now is that some of the allottees have decided to leave their plots to go and squat 
elsewhere. That is why we are saying that the land there belongs to the council and the council has not yet decided to allocate plots. When the time comes, some of the genuine squatters will be settled. That is why we are saying that instead of the 14 days' quit notice given earlier, we are now giving them 30 days to quit.
Mr. Speaker: I will allow Mr. Godana to ask the last supplementary question because we have another Question coming, and the time is gone. Questions must be dealt with within the allotted time. So, hon. Members should not try to go beyond this time by asking 20 supplementary questions as one question because that is not good.
S1BHN03K
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
REASONS FOR HIKING PRICES 
Mr. Wambua asked the Vice-President and Minister for Finance whether in view of the fact that our annual budget is approved by this House every year, he could explain the reasons that necessitate upward price adjustments of essential commodities like sugar, flour and cooking oil after the approval of the annual estimates.
The Assistant Minister, Office of the Vice-President and Ministry of Finance (Mr. Kariuki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
It is true that this House approves the annual budget every year. It should, however, be appreciated that, although annual budget may result in increase or decrease of prices due to fiscal measures taken, price changes are not the scope nor the purpose of the annual budgets. Indeed, the annual budget may not contain any price changes at all. There are various factors that affect prices which singly or in combination, lead to revision of prices after the annual budget. The factors which have at one time or another contributed to the revision of price increases for sugar, flour and cooking oil are:-
(i) Increase in the cost of raw materials, including producer prices, (ii) price increase on inputs utilised in manufacture of the products, (iii) strengthening of major currencies against the Kenya shilling or (iv) increase in financing charges.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the information of the hon. Member and the House, when we talk about the budget, we are talking about a Government statement regarding Government's proposals to collect revenue and how it proposes to spend that revenue. Any increase in prices of certain commodities during the budget is a fiscal measure. In other words, here Government is trying to raise revenue and this must be differentiated with other increases in prices that come after the budget and which, as I said, may come about due to increased in the cost of raw materials and so on. When the <-_price><+_prices> of raw materials increase, this has nothing to do with Government revenue or Government expenditure and hence has nothing to do with the budget. If we increase, say the price of beer during the budget, that is a fiscal measure because it is a way of raising revenue for the Government. However, when we increase the price of sugar, flour and so on due to the producer cost of sugar cane having gone up, this has nothing to do with the budget. I think the hon. Members should be able to differentiate these two aspects.
Mr. Wambua: Mr. Speaker, Sir, while thanking the Assistant Minister for the answer he has given, would he not agree with me that not all the people in the country are educated to know what he has been saying. All I know is that when <ea/>wananchi hear of the budget, they take it to be the final authority for increasing the prices of commodities. For example, last year when the budget was read, it took only two days for the Government to announce an increase in the price of Kimbo, maize flour, and sugar. As a result of this, <ea/>wananchi then started wondering what was the purpose of reading the budget in the first place. Could the Assistant Minister tell us what arrangements his Ministry has to educate our people to come out of their present mentality that once the budget is read, that is final and that prices of essential commodities should not be increased after a few days. 
Mr. Kariuki: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would not like to mislead the hon. Members or the public. Telling members of the public that there is not going to be price increases after the budget, would be misleading them. If after the budget we are told to increase the producer prices of sugar or flour because the price of fuel has gone up, then how can we tell the people that we are not going to increase the prices after the budget. I think hon. Members would agree with me that they have the responsibility of educating members of public not to term the increase of prices of essential commodities after the budget as mini budgets because that is a very misleading term. When Members of Parliament describe these increases as mini budgets, they give members of the public the impression that the Government is revising its budget which is not the case. We are living in a pragmatic world where there will be continuous increases of fuel, where the Kenyan currency will continue to fluctuate against other major currencies; where interest rates will keep on going higher and higher and therefore, we cannot as a responsible Government assure the public that there will be no price increases after the budget. It would not be realistic to say that.
Mr. Wambua: Mr. Speaker, Sir, would the Assistant Minister not agree with me that they have enough time to carry out thorough research before they present the budget here. Why can they not consult the people concerned so that at least when the budget is read, it can take a month or so before these increases or mini budget come about.
Mr. Kariuki: Mr. Speaker, Sir, anybody with the knowledge of the existing events in the world today would know how impossible it would be to predict anything. I think what the hon. Member is trying to ask us to do is impossible. How do you foretell that there is not going to be an increase in the fuel prices from the Middle East; how are you going to foretell that the Kenya shilling is not going to fluctuate downwards from what is it now? We do not have in Treasury soothsayers who can assist us in foretelling world events before they can happen. It is for this reason that we could not foretell that there was going to be war in the Middle East. How do we foretell that there is not going to be some political problem somewhere in the world which would cause fluctuation of price or in the interest rates and so on? The hon. Member is asking us in Treasury to act as God which, of necessity, we cannot.
Mr. Kiilu: Is the Assistant Minister aware that the public is not interested in what he saying? Why does the Government increase prices of commodities soon after the Budget is read? The public knows that it is only when the Budget is read that prices are announced officially.
Mr. Kariuki: It behoves on all of us in this august House to do what we can to educate the members of the public. This is why I have given a detailed answer so that the hon. Members who are here can assist in explaining to the members of the public as to why it becomes necessary to increase prices of goods from time to time.
For example, Sir, ----
Mr. Speaker: Order! You have to cut short this long exposition, Mr. Kariuki. Come to the point and proceed.
Mr. Kariuki: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was just trying to explain because I have been told to explain why these things happen. I have just said that it behoves on all of us to educate the members of the public with regard to the fact that I have already mentioned and which I am not going to repeat. 
Mr. Anaswa: Now that the Assistant Minister is aware that there must be price increases from time to time, is it not possible within the budgetary system to set aside some amount of money which could be used to offset some of these fluctuations?
Mr. Kariuki: This is forcing me to repeat myself once again. During Budget time, we talk about Government revenue and expenditure. These other increases may be necessary because the providers of raw materials require more money to provide these materials. The two do not tie up. How can we provide for these during the Budget? We cannot.
Mr. Speaker: Next Question.
ELECTRICITY PROJECT FOR MWALA 
Mr. Wambua asked the Minister for Energy:-
(a) whether he is aware that over 1000 people in Masii area of Mwala Constituency paid a deposit of shs 500/- each for the rural electrification project in 1986; and
(b) what has delayed the <-/completionof> this project and when it will be completed.
The Minister for Energy (Mr. Kyalo): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) I am not aware that over 1000 people in Masii area of Mwala Constituency paid a deposit of shs 500/- each in 1986.
(b) I am therefore now aware of any delayed project dating back to 1986 in Mwala Constituency.
Mr. Wambua: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the Minister that this Question came up in June, 1991 and <-_the><+_what> I was given was that ways and means were being worked out so that electricity could be installed in that place. The people in that paid the money in 1986, which is about seven years now and they still keeping their receipts, waiting for the service to be provided. I am surprised to hear the Minister say he is not aware of this case when the money has been in his office for six good years. Either the service is provided or the people are given back their money with interest.
Mr. Kyalo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to inform the hon. Member that people have a right to make private arrangements so that electricity is provided for them.
Mr. Wambua: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I think the Minister is misleading the House. Money was paid to the Ministry and people were not supposed to make private arrangements for the provision in <-/thier> area. If that was the case, why were they told to pay the money to the Ministry?
Mr. Kyalo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to make one thing clear that there are areas that are designated "rural electrification areas". By 1986 Masii had not yet been designated a "rural electrification area, which meant that money was set aside by the Ministry to electrify the place. But people - and this happened in quite a number of places in Machakos District - contributed money and deposited it with the Kenya Power and Lighting Company [KPLC], which is quite normal.
Mr. Malebe: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister says that it is normal to deposit money with the KPLC for the rural electrification project. Is he in order to say that this money was paid to the company? I know that you deposit money with the KPLC when a service line from the main line to your house. Is he saying you deposit money with the company even if you have no service line from the main line to your house?
Mr. Kyalo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, although that sounds like a different question all together let me inform the hon. Member that no money was deposited with the KPLC for rural electrification. But Masii people, and practically in most parts of Machakos District, paid money but by then the areas had not been designated for rural electrification.
Mr. Kubo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is clear that money was deposited; this money may not have come under the rural electrification project: it may have come under the normal commercial supplies. So, can the Minister tell us whether the money came under the rural electrification project or the normal commercial electrification programme and how soon those who paid the money will get electricity?
Mr. Kyalo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if some <-_fo><+_of> these people are within 600 metres of transformers they may apply for rural electrification which is going on in Masii and Mwala Locations and there will be no problem with giving them electricity.
Mr. Wambua: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think these paid the in the belief that they would be supplied with electricity. The area was surveyed about two years ago, and I am surprised that the Minister does not seem to be aware of this.
S1BHN04K
MOTION
ADOPTION OF SESSIONAL PAPER NO. 1 OF 1992 
THAT, this House adopts Sessional paper No. 1 of 1992 on Development and Employment in Kenya, laid on the Table on  25th March, 1992.
Mr. Speaker: hon. J.N. Mungai will continue.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I mentioned about the environment; the creation of conducive environment so that we can attract local foreign investors. You will find that although foreign investors would like to invest in this country there is also another problem that the investors are facing. This is the problem of taxation. Taxation in Kenya is exaggerated; the taxes are killing. Investors may not accept to invest here because most of their money goes to taxation. If you look at the taxes you will find that they are eating on the profits of the investors. If you look at PAYE you will find that that is another tax which is also hitting wage earners very hard. Income tax is the same. If you look at the services charge it is the same. We tried to remove services charge this morning and although we lost but I am sure the point was made. Those who made us lose are being waited for outside there. The people know what they did this morning. They know themselves. They are the Front-benchers.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Hon. Members I want you to study the Standing Orders and acquaint yourselves with the relevant parts. There is a section which does not allow hon. Members to discuss a matter that has already been disposed of or to anticipate a matter which is coming in the form of a Bill or a Motion. Hon. Mungai is going back to discuss something that has been discussed. You are not allowed to do that by Standing Orders.
Hon. Members: Shame! Shame!
Mr. J.N. Mungai: I know about the particular Standing Order. It is Standing Order No. 69.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am talking about a tax called service charge tax that is not giving a good environment to the investors in the country. I emphasise that we shall need to scrap off this tax because investors are paying heavily and yet no services rendered. It is the same with other taxes. We make somebody invest and then tax him so heavily. We make somebody invest in the country and do not allow him to repatriate some of his profits. If we want to employ our people and then we want more money into our coffers, then we shall never make it.
Mr. arap Soi: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for hon. Njenga Mungai to discuss a Motion that was rejected this morning by the House?
Mr. Speaker: I think so long as hon. Njenga Mungai does not refer to the Motion discussed this morning, he is in order. We are discussing about this Sessional Paper No. 1 of 1992 on Development and Employment in Kenya. You say there are certain obstacles and you also talk about tax in general. As long as you confine yourself to various types of taxes without referring to what was discussed in the morning, then you are in order. So be careful how you go about it.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will go by your ruling. In fact, I am talking about taxes in general. However, I think, hon. arap Soi has some interest in the matter.
Mr. arap Soi: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Could the hon. Member declare what interests I have in the matter since I have none? He should not impute improper motive to me.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think hon. arap Soi knows what interests he has in the matter and it is not for me to mention them.
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Njenga Mungai! In fact, you could be a very good debater and contributor if you watched a few things, such as not imputing improper motives to other Members and so on. So be careful!
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am only appealing to the Minister that in trying to encourage investors to come and invest here, it is also important that we should take care. We should take all precautions and one of them is taxation. I am sure it is clear to everybody that we tend to overtax investors in our country. We are just about the highest in the world in taxation. That is why I said instead of people coming to invest here they prefer going to other countries with lower taxes. 
Taxation is not just a question of how much the Government can make to the coffers. It is also important to note that the biggest responsibility of our Government is the welfare of our people that must be well-taken care of. If we do not do that, then it is better to avoid such taxation. Taxation today on Value Added Tax (V.A.T.) is very high and there is no reason for that when we have so many unemployed people. We must not sacrifice the employment of our people at the expense of taxation. This is why I call upon the Minister for Planning and National Development to seriously look into the taxation policy.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we also have another problem arising out of "letters of no objection". When our good friends who fly flags want to do a favour to somebody, they give letters of no objection so that person can import certain commodities free of duty and yet those commodities are also locally manufactured here. Now, that is "killing" the local industries. The technology we have here is not equal to that from overseas which is very advanced. Their total production is low but ours is high. We have imported technology from them and probably they have given us a second-hand material of technology. Therefore, we must make sure that before any letter of no objection is issued to an importer, a thorough investigation is carried out in our industries to establish whether such commodities are also manufactured locally. Such letters must be stopped forthwith for locally manufactured goods. We can allow importation but not for locally manufactured goods. This is tantamount to "killing" our local investors.
The Minister for Industry (Mr. ole Kaparo): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like hon. Njenga Mungai to cite an instance where a licence had been given to import goods that are locally manufactured here because it is not good to blame the Government?
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very unfortunate since I do not have a document, but if the hon. Member wishes to challenge me, I am prepared to lay the documents on the Table, say, in a week's time. He is the Minister for Industry and should know better.
The Minister for Industry (Mr. ole Kaparo): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is against the Standing Orders for a person to speculate matters that are not particularly within his knowledge. Hon. Njenga Mungai has made very serious allegations here and it is upon him to prove the truth of every utterance that he makes in the House. Therefore, since he is over-charged or overtaxed, can he either withdraw or substantiate the allegation?
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not going to withdraw, but given only one week, I will be able to substantiate.
The Minister for Industry (Mr. ole Kaparo): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is really in order for a Member of this House to make an inflammatory statement and then asks for time to substantiate?
Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, I think it is important for us to debate in this House in a cordial atmosphere so that there can be room for some sense of humour occasionally. Hon. Mungai has made a statement that, I am sure, the knowledgeable people of this country would disagree with completely. For instance, importing things by certain individuals which are locally made here in the country cannot in all aspects be considered illegal. There are professionals who would understand why this cannot be considered to be illegal. However, Mr. Mungai is within his rights to disagree with that and I think he is entitled to his opinion. Hon. ole Kaparo as a Government Minister too has a right to challenge the correctness of what hon. Mungai is saying that the cost of production in developed countries is lower. This may not be the case because the cost of labour here maybe much lower and that is why some multinationals like investing in Kenya. However, that is for hon. ole Kaparo to raise as a challenge to what hon. Mungai is saying.
So, hon. Members, I would like to see an atmosphere of give and take; an atmosphere of freedom of expression without anybody unnecessarily being taken into task to prove the authenticity of what he may be saying as a matter of personal opinion.
The Assistant Minister for Manpower Development and Employment (Mr. Otwani): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Whereas I entirely agree with your ruling regarding the atmosphere of good debate in this House, I am sure you will agree with me that hon. Mungai has become notorious for issuing reckless statements. Therefore, I think he has to substantiate his allegation now or withdraw it for a week until he comes back to the House with full substantiation.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if hon. Members would give me the chance to come back here and substantiate my remarks after a week or so, I will be able to substantiate fully. Perhaps even some of the hon. Ministers in this House are putting on imported suits and they think that I do not know where the documents to prove my case are. Do we not have textile industries in Kenya today? Are we supposed to import our suits? Why <-/cann't> they buy Raymond suits that are made in Kenya instead of going to England to buy suits from there? I think the hon. Minister for Industry is wearing an imported suit. This is why I am saying that we are not here to cover corruption. We are talking about creating an environment to attract investment. It is unfortunate that the Minister is trying to challenge us. If given the chance to come back after a week to substantiate, I will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there is corruption involved in these things and I do not think that would be encouraging investment in this country.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know that hon. ole Kaparo went to the Ministry of Industry the other day. However, I am sure he is going to correct the situation. I am in another one year, nobody will be given a letter of objection to import. I am saying this because I know the present Minister for Industry is an upright man and I congratulate him for this. This is why I am saying that we definitely need to think about the development of this country. We must support our beloved President who has given us positions of high management so that we can speak in this House about the national management for the benefit of the people of this land. However, each time we try to open up the way that can lead us to some truth, somebody must stand up and say. "So-and-so is undermining the Government. So-and-so is doing this or that". We do not want anybody to stand in the way of truth during this era of transparency. We do not want anybody to think we are fighting each other. What we are trying to do is to correct whatever wrong has been done so that things in our country can be done in an upright manner.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am also opposed strongly to Government investment in parastatals. 
S1BHN05K
WORKERS' CHILDREN EDUCATION SCHEME 
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:
THAT, in view of the fact that members of the National Social Security Fund (NSSF) benefit from the fund only after retirement, and considering that children of many of the workers have been missing secondary school and university education because of lack of school fees; this House urges the Government to establish a "Workers' Children Education Scheme" within the NSSF to lend soft loans to all members for school fees.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I decided to move this Motion after seeing the mismanagement that is subjected to the workers' money by a few millionaires who have been enjoying the economy of this country since Independence. It is immaterial to give somebody money after 55 years when his children could not go to school because of lack of school fees. I propose that the Government should establish a "Social Security Bank" where all the money collected as NSSF contribution should go so that members can get loans through the NSSF. As I am talking now --
Mr. Falana: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. As much as I do not want to interrupt the hon. Kiliku, this is a very important Motion with a purpose and it definitely needs some attention but I wonder if there is anyone from the Ministry of Labour and Manpower Development taking notes. I Know that the Minister is out, there are no Government officials here and I do not know whether the hon. Kiliku is simply talking to the "air".
Mr. Speaker: Order! I thought the hon. Falana was the Deputy Chief Whip.
Mr. Falana: I am, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: He should be telling us precisely who is taking charge of that Motion.
The Assistant Minister for Public Works and Housing (Mr. Mwamzandi): Sir, I am taking notes of behalf of the Minister.
Mr. Falana: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Falana, I hope you are not taking issue with what I have just ruled with regard to what you had raised. As the Deputy Chief Whip, on the Government side, you should be in the know of the arrangements your side is making on Motions that come before the House.
Mr. Falana: I am taking issue, Sir. There is no doubt that I am the Deputy Chief Whip of the Government side and that is why I am concerned with whatever is going on in this House. My office did not know that there was somebody to respond, on behalf of the Minister, to the hon. Member's Motion. It is because of that concern that I needed clarification as to whether there was somebody taking notes on what is being said on this Motion.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Falana, I thought the hon. Mwamzandi had made that point clear.
Proceed, Mr. Kiliku.
Mr. Kiliku: Anyway, the Opposition is used to talking to stones but one day we shall crush the stone! The workers of this country ---
The Assistant Minister for Agriculture, Livestock Development and Marketing (Dr. Misoi): On a point of order, Sir. Is it in order for the hon. Kiliku to tell this House that the Opposition is used to talking to stones? Is that in order? We are not stones.
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Members! I do not want us to get bogged down at this early hour on unnecessary points of order and taking away the time of the hon. Kiliku in moving this Motion. I thought he was expressing his views and Dr. Misoi, you of course, have contrary views. Once the debate is open, you will be at liberty to express your views as you wish.
Proceed, Mr. Kiliku.
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the workers of this country who are members of the NSSF qualify, beyond any reasonable doubt, as slaves of the millionaires of this nation. This is because their money is being invested elsewhere without their knowledge and consent. They do not benefit from their assets like building. Their money is used to buy buildings and to finance very big projects without their consent. How do you describe a slave, Mr. Speaker, Sir? I think a slave is a person who works without pay.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope this Government will change because we are now in a multi-party democracy. Since 1967 workers have been victimised by millionaires in this country and it is high time that the Government changed and responded to the demands of the people. Members of the Government may be like a stone wall, but there has not been nothing harder than the former Berlin wall which has now been demolished. This is another era in which the Government must be accountable and transparent. This is workers' money and the Minister should tell the House the financial position of the National Social Security Fund (NSSF) as of now. He must also tell the House why Shs Nine billion of the Fund is in a suspense account. Very few millionaires who have been managing this Fund have been loaning themselves this money through their financial institutions.
If this time the Government will fails to listen to the people we will tell the people to demand that the Government listens to them. This is because there will be no alternative but to tell the people to demand money so that the Government listens. This is a democratic Government but it not listening to very people who elected it. If the people come up and demand to be listened to, the Government will have not choice but to listen to them. We cannot continue witnessing mismanagement of the NSSF money being perpetrated by our very brothers with whom we have trusted with positions in the Fund. They are taking this money into their pockets.
It is no use to be in this House if we cannot solve the problems of the same people who have elected us into this House. Instead of the Government implementing the people's wishes it is engaged in political propaganda, while at the end of the day it will be a failure. Kanu is the ruling party and it should listen to the what the people say and implement it. There is no need of being on the defensive always and also engaging in propaganda. Instead of dealing with workers and farmers problems Kanu is engaging itself in endless propaganda. It is almost a year since the last general election but the Government has achieved nothing, except propaganda. We do not want a Government which is engaging itself in propaganda instead of implementing policies aimed at promoting the welfare of the tax payers who are financing that Government. Kanu has been going round saying that it is Opposition which is calling upon international donors not to give aid to this country. This is wrong and misleading because the main condition which has been set by the IMF and World Bank for resumption of aid to the country is elimination of corruption. If the Government stops corruption in the same Government we will get aid.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister for Labour and Manpower Development deliberately escaped from the House because this Motion was coming up for discussion and he would be held responsible for what has been happening in the NSSF with workers money, which is really not Government money. This year some parents could not send their children to school because of the high school fees charges. Even the Minister for Education has added to the parents' burden by shifting the responsibility of paying board of governors workers in schools to them. I am appealing that Kanu stops spreading the gospel about who from which area is being groomed for the Vice-Presidency because this will help us. Even Kanu leaders are undermining one another. Even in the Opposition everybody wants to be this or that. Our problem is not going to State House or Presidency; our problem is the peoples's problems. Let those who are blessed by God go to State and listen to the 24 million Kenyans, but not engage themselves in politicking.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like the Minister to outline how the contract on the NSSF House extension complex, which is under construction, was awarded and how much money has been spent on this complex. We want the Minister to tell us ---
Mr. Arte: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I think the Motion is very clear. It is talking of establishment of an educational fund under the NSSF. It is not on how NSSF money is used on contracts.
Mr. Speaker: Proceed, Mr. Kiliku.
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just sympathise with the hon. Member, but that is the kind of material we have on that side. I want the Minister to bring the signed contract on this matter here so that we see how money was used on that building. We are in multi-party democracy and we are not scared of anybody. The truth should be brought here for us to know who was given that contract, under what circumstances and how much money we have spent so far on that building.
The Assistant Minister for Public Works and Housing (Mr. Mwamzandi): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The hon. Member keeps on talking to hon. Dr. Misoi, instead of addressing the House through the Chair. Could he be advised to address the Chair?
Mr. Speaker: I have had occasion to ask hon. Members to address the Chair, and not one another across the Floor as that would stop personalising debate. Let us proceed on that line.
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was not talking to hon. Dr. Misoi. I was just looking at him because he was once the Chairman of the Public Investments Committee, and he could be in a position to tell us what happened.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we also want to know about the money that was used to buy Bruce House by the National Social Security Fund (NSSF). How was the contract entered into, and how much money was used to buy the NSSF building in Mombasa? How was Mugoya Construction Company given this controversial contract by the NSSF?
The Assistant Minister for Public Works and Housing (Mr. Mwamzandi): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This Motion is very clear, and the hon. Member is introducing other matters which are irrelevant to the Motion. Could he be asked to stick to the Motion?
Mr. Speaker: I would like to bring to the attention of hon. Kiliku the rule on relevance. I would like him to look at the wording of this Motion and be relevant to the terms.
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am just describing how workers have qualified to be the slaves of "grabioses" in this country. You cannot talk about establishing a social security bank which will be in a position to give loans to workers without the availability of money. If <-_workers><+_worker's> money continues to be mismanaged, by the time this bank is established, there will be no money at all.
This is no time for covering "godfathers" nor for "godfatherhood". Through you, I would like to tell hon. Mwamzandi that he does not have to rely on "godfathers" because this is the time for speaking the truth.
The Assistant Minister for Public Works and Housing (Mr. Mwamzandi): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to insinuate that I am covering a "godfather"? I do not understand that. Am I not just representing the Government here?
Mr. Speaker: For the good flow of debate, hon. Members, let us leave aside everything personal that is insinuated and proceed with debate.
Mr. Kiliku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if the Assistant Minister is taking down notes, he should mark that we want to know why when retired people go to the NSSF do not get their money. 
S1BHN06K
QUESTIONS BY PRIVATE NOTICE
MR. KANGWANA'S WHEREABOUTS 
Mr. Shamalla: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State, Office of the President, the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) Has the Government withdrawn Mr. Jared Kangwana's Passport?
(b) If the answer to (a) is in the affirmative, why was the passport withdrawn?
(c) Can the Minister furnish the House with Mr. Kangwana's whereabouts?
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Awori): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) Yes, the Government has withdrawn the Kenya passport previously issued to Mr. Kangwana.
(b) The passport was withdrawn for well founded reasons.
(c) I am not aware of Mr. Kangwana's whereabouts. If Mr. Kangwana is out of the country he must have travelled clandestinely, and the Government cannot, therefore, know where, when or how he left the country.
Mr. Shamalla: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the question is not whether the reasons for the withdrawal of the passport are valid or not. The question is what those reasons are because Mr. Kangwana is nor ordinary person especially as far as Kanu is concerned. Would the Assistant Minister tell us why the passport was withdrawn and where Mr. Kangwana is?
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Government does not have to give the reasons why a passport is withdrawn. Secondly, we don't know where Mr. Kangwana is.
Mr. Wamalwa: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wanted to raise a point of order. Is the Assistant Minister in order to mislead the House that the Government does not have to give reasons or answers as to why a passport has been withdrawn? Whereas this may be so vis-a-vis the passport holder, I think the Government has a duty to give reasons to this Parliament.
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the purpose of the security of the nation, the Government can choose to withhold the reasons on why a passport has been withdrawn.
Mr. Shikuku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, arising from that absurd reply, will the Assistant Minister agree with me that in the past we had Questions in the House, and I was one of the Members asking them, on the whereabouts of the late J.M. Kariuki. We were treated to the same thing as what we are seeing today. Does the Assistant Minister know that he is responsible to tell this House, and the Nation, the whereabouts of any single citizen of this country? That is his job and he should not pretend otherwise.
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is believed that Mr. Kangwana could be doing business in South Africa but that has not been officially confirmed. Since freedom of movement is guaranteed by the Kenyan Constitution, there was no way in which the security personnel could trail Mr. Kangwana everywhere he goes nor stop him from leaving the country clandestinely.
Mr. Kairu: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In view of the conflicting reports regarding Mr. Kangwana's disappearance, could the Assistant Minster confirm to this House whether it is true that all his businesses have been taken away and that led to his disappearance?
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have no idea of anyone having taken away Mr. Kangwana's businesses.
Mr. Ogur: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir,. This House wishes to ask the Assistant Minister to look for Mr. Kangwana and let it know whether he is detained, in hospital, or anywhere in the world, alive or dead.
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have just mentioned that it is believed that Mr. Kangwana is doing businesses in South Africa.
Mr. Obwocha: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Finally, you have seen Mr. Kangwana's tribesman. This is a very sad affair yet the Assistant Minister is taking it very casually. Just as the hon. Member has said, Mr. Kangwana is not an ordinary man, he is even a friend of the Vice-President of this Republic and his Member of Parliament, hon. Nyachae knows him. Despite all this the Assistant Minister stand up and tells the nation that he does not know where Mr. Kangwana is or that he might have gone to South Africa, when he knows very well that they took his passport away. This is very sad! Can the Assistant Minister tell this House whether Mr. Kangwana is in jail, dead or alive?
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, under our Constitution, there are no ordinary or special people. All people are equal.
Dr. Kopyo: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You heard the Assistant Minister say that it is believed that Mr. Kangwana fled to South Africa. What I would like to know is where his source of speculation arises from. 
Mr. Speaker: You should have asked a supplementary question.
Mr. Wamae: Mr. Speaker, Sir, we all know that Mr. Kangwana was an Executive of <+_the> Trans-National Bank of Kenya. We now know that this Bank is having a lot of trouble. Indeed, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has ordered it closed down like any other political banks. Would it be in order to ask the Assistant Minister to get some information on Mr. Kangwana from his partners at Trans-National Bank?
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if it is the wish of the House that I should ask the Trans- National Bank staff the whereabouts of Mr. Kangwana, I will most certainly do so and bring the answer here.
Mr. Kapten: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In 1975, we were told that Mr. J.M. kariuki was in Zambia when he was dead. We are now being told that Mr. Kangwana <-_maybe><+_may be> in South Africa. We are not sure of that. Can the Assistant Minister give us some of the reasons why Mr. Kangwana's passport was withdrawn. Is it because Mr. Kangwana had refused to sell the Kenya Television Network (KTN) to some top Government officials in this Country?
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is news to me.
Mr. Speaker: Let us move on to the next Question by Private Notice by hon. Kiliku. I am sorry it is Mr. Kituyi's Question and not Mr. Kiliku's. I do not have my glasses on. That is why I cannot read the correct name.
Mr. Mulusya: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With due respect to the chair. We have noticed that you have a problem with your eyesight. Can you get proper glasses so that you can identify correctly the names of the hon. Members?
Mr. Speaker: Order! This is the most frivolous point of order, I have ever heard and although I have denied hon. Mulusya the indignity of being sent out of the House in the past, I will now give him that honour. I am now asking him to leave the Chamber. 
Hon. Members: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Order! There will be no further points of order.
HARASSMENT OF MEMBERS 
Dr. Kituyi: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State, Office of the President the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) Is the Minister aware that Honourable Members who have to pass through Burnt Forest on their way to and from their constituencies are regularly subjected to harassment, humiliation and delays at the multiple road blocks where they are forced to identify themselves and other occupants of their cars and their persons, and cars are searched by police officers?
(b) When will this infuriating harassment come to an end?
The Assistant Minister of State, Office of the President (Mr. Sunkuli): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) Burnt Forest is within an area which the Government has declared to be a security operational zone and as such, all persons and their cars passing through there are required to identify themselves. However, immediately one identifies himself he is allowed to pass without any delay harassment or humiliation.
(b) No harassment as alleged by the Questioner has been reported to the police.
Dr. Kituyi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I like the honesty of some of these answers even when they do not make sense, even when we are told that persons and their cars have to identify themselves. That answer has come from a learned Assistant Minister. If a <-/mwananchi> told us that he was being subjected to harassment we might have some doubts about this. When the Government is now telling hon. Members that they are not experiencing what they normally experience every week what do they expect?
There are three hon. Members who have been with me and subjected to this harassment including being escorted for more than a hundred <-_kilometre><+_kilometres> by police escorts to make sure that they do not stop on the road between Nakuru and beyond Eldoret. This Government must tell us clearly if it can do this kind of thing to hon. Members what can stop it from harassing the common <-/mwananchi> like those who are being raped in Kikuyu?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, you realise that hon. Kituyi has not asked any question. If he is learned enough to know that people should not identify themselves, he should be learned enough to know that he can take legal recourse if he has any complaints. What we are saying is that these are total rumours.
Mr. A.S. Ahmed: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope that by now every hon: Member of Parliament has realised that the Government's powerful birds of prey are everywhere, even in the National Assembly. Civil servants have a chance since they stand somewhere in the channel of authority. 
An hon. Member: Ask your question!
Mr. A.S. Ahmed: I am building up my question!
Mr. A.S. Ahmed: Mr. Speaker, Sir, one thing that I would like to know from the hon. Assistant Minister is: According to the Government, what is the position of a Member Of Parliament in the channel of authority?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, a Member of Parliament is a Member of the Kenyan Legislature, created by the Kenyan Constitution.
Dr. Kituyi: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to allege that Members of Parliament must carry Identity Cards when they travel beyond Burnt Forest, along the main road from Mombasa to Kampala?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, hon. Dr. Kituyi is putting words into my mouth, although he should be advised, of course, to carry his Identity Card. But I think that hon. Members, and every other Kenyan citizens, should identify themselves.
Mr. Kombo: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Following that dishonest answer, and since I am a victim of this harassment, could the Assistant Minister tell us whether this country is, in fact, a police State to justify harassment of people on an international highway from Nairobi to Kampala? Unless we are a police State, we should not go through this kind of harassment. Can he confirm whether or not we are now a police State?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, needless to say, we are, of course, not a police State. But I want to make it clear that everybody, including myself and other Ministers, must identify themselves, and as soon as they have done so, they can pass through Burnt Forest. It is also important to add that when hon. Members require the Government to put security measures to areas that are prone to insecurity, that is the price you pay.
Hon. Members: On a point of order! On a point of order!
Mr. Speaker: Order! Last one on that, Mr. Nyagah!
Mr. Nyagah: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Arising from the Assistant Minister's---
Mr. J.N. Mungai: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Nyagah! There is a point of order from Mr. J.N. Mungai.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, since the regulations which were gazetted by the President concerning the areas that were sealed off for security operations have never been brought to this House for discussions, and the period that they were supposed to be brought in this House expired---
S1BHN07K
QUESTIONS BY PRIVATE NOTICE 
DEATH OF MS. IMIRE 
Prof. Anyang´ Nyong´o: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, the following Question by Private Notice:-
(a) Could the Minister explain the circumstances which led to the death of Ms. Violet Imali Imire of the University of Mysore in India a few days ago?
(b)  Has the Government established who killed Ms. Imire and if so, what further steps is the Government taking regarding this tragic incident?
The Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation (Dr. Manduku): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. It pains me to make public in this manner the events which led to the death of a Kenyan student in India. It would have been my wish to confine the death to family members only.
(a) Ms. Violet Imali Imire, in the company of other Kenyan students, attended a birthday party on the night of 6th November, 1993 and at 3.00 a.m. Violet and a friend borrowed another friend's key and left for his house where they intended to spend the night. It is reported that an argument took place between Violet and her <-/boy-friend> at the house. The <-/boy-friend> then went outside to lock his scooter and on return, he found Violet on fire. Information available shows that he tried to save her and was burned in the process and rushed to hospital. Police and other people connected in the investigation, concluded that the death was not by misdeed or crime. According to the post-mortem reports the deceased sustained third degree burns of 95% extent. She died from asphyxia as a result of inhalation of flames and irrespirable gases of combustion. The report concludes that the nature and extent of burns are of a typical suicidal case.
(b) The evidence available indicates that she died from self-demolition and, therefore, the Indian police cannot arrest and charge anyone.
Prof. Anyang´ Nyong´o: Arising from the answer given by the Assistant Minister, it equally pains me to raise this matter in this House, hardly one or two months since I asked a question concerning the rather tragic loss of lives in India of Kenyan students of unusually large proportion compared to the population of Kenyan students abroad. India is a very worrying situation.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope you will give me time to give more details about the loss of Ms. Violet Imali Imire and a very inadequate report given by the Indian police, and rather unprofessional conclusions arrived at by the forensic doctor in India. Ms. Imire died on the night of 6th November as explained by the Assistant Minister. But she had no personal history of suicidal tendencies. The evidence collected by the Indian police does not include any statement given by those close to Ms. Imire except her so-called boyfriend. Her roommate Ms. Bakari did not make any statements nor did her immediate friends. The boyfriend did not make any statement. The statements were made by other individuals other than those who could have known Ms. Imire closely. I would also like to state here that the post-mortem---
Mr. Speaker: Order, Prof. Anyang´ Nyong´o The question here is: could the Minister explain the circumstances which led to the death of Ms. Imire? You are now explaining. I wonder if you have taken the role of the Minister. Could you put your question?
Prof. Anyang´ Nyong´o: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I could put the question, but I can only put it if I give the necessary background to the Assistant Minister, which he has ignored. The Assistant Minister refers only to the report given by the police and Indian doctors and does not refer to the post-mortem done at the University of Nairobi which raises the following questions which I would like him to respond to.
Manner of death - this should be investigated further. There are many disturbing omissions from the post-mortem and forensic report in India. 
I will try to list the items which should be explained. 
Mr. Speaker: Order, may I again remind you that you cannot make a question the basis of a debate.
Prof. Anyang´ Nyong´o: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the questions are as follows. Could the Minister respond to the following questions raised by the post-mortem report at the University of Nairobi, which cast doubts regarding the circumstances under which Ms. Imire died? The following are the questions:
1) There are no statements from the alleged boyfriend, Raymond, nor the owner of the house, nor Mr. Robert Bwibo.
2) There is no toxicology report - the post-mortem in Nairobi would have expected alcohol blood level and carbon-monoxide blood level. A person who was at a party and died of burns needed this kind of examination. 
3) Robert saw the black plastic---
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Member. I have shown a lot of tolerance because a Kenyan child died abroad and I hoped that you would press for action from the Assistant Minister. You know the basic rules that you ask one question at a time. Can you ask one question at a time and then you will give other Members a chance to assist you in pressing for action?
Prof. Anyang´ Nyong´o: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will ask one question at a time. The question is this: Can the Assistant Minister explain from the point of view of the second post-mortem done in Nairobi, whether or not he is satisfied with the statement he got from India and whether or not, those statements do indeed explain the real circumstances under which this lady died?
Dr. Manduku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have two post-mortem reports. One report was done immediately after the death of Ms. Imire and another report was done in Nairobi by a Nairobi pathologist, Dr. Aggrey Nyong´o, presumably a brother to the questioner which, however, does not matter. The report given by the doctors in India proved that this lady died of severe burns that she inflicted on herself or otherwise, burns of 95% extent. That is a complete burn of the whole body, because literally there was no skin left. Definitely under such circumstances there is nothing you can do other than have a very explicit cause of death. After the body had been brought back to Kenya a Kenyan doctor, Dr. Aggrey Nyong´o, looked at the body and raised these questions which are very, very obvious; that the real cause of death was severe burns.
Prof. Anyang´ Nyong´o: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not disputing the fact that the cause was by burning. 
But I am disputing the conclusion by the Indian doctor and the Indian police that it was suicide. This is because the dramatic persona in this case are highly suspect. The Assistant Minister is not reading to this House the questions raised by Dr. Nyong´o, a Nairobi Pathologist, regarding the conclusions reached in India. What is happening in India is of great concern to this nation. When somebody dies of burns, it does not <&/>grammar necessary mean that they have committed suicide; somebody else could have burnt them. In this circumstance, I concur with my brother that there is suspicion of murder in India which is being covered up by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation and the Indian authorities.
Dr. Manduku: There is nothing being covered up here, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Indian police have done investigations and we are telling the House what the Indian Police and authorities did.
Dr. Otieno-Kopiyo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, hon. Prof. Nyong´o asked the Assistant Minister a question. The hon. Assistant Minister has stated categorically that these people who were supposed to be in the know did not make any statements to the police. He also says he is satisfied with that. Is he not contradicting an obvious thing?
Mr. Speaker: Order, Dr. Otieno-Kopiyo! Are you putting the question to me or to the Assistant Minister?
Dr. Otieno-Kopiyo: I heard and suppose you also heard; that the lady's boyfriend did not make a statement to the police. Also the people in the neighbourhood were not questioned by the police. Obviously, therefore, the conclusions reached by the Indian Police were inadequate and misleading.
Mr. Speaker: What is your response, Dr. Manduku?
Dr. Manduku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Indian police recorded statements from several people who were around that vicinity. They recorded a statement from one Shailaja Kriparidi ---
An Hon. Member: <_ea>Huyo ni Mhindi!</ea>
Dr. Manduku: This is a neighbour of Robert. Robert is the owner of the house in which Raymond and Irene had gone to stay overnight. She went near the house and saw Raymond whose left hand had severe burns. He was screaming for help. Shailaja also saw flames coming from the kitchen. With <+_the> help of neighbours, the fire was put out.
Mr. Speaker: I do not think we have the time to have all that disposition read from the Table. You ma y choose to lay the document on the Table.
Dr. Maduku: What I am trying to say, Mr. Speaker, Sir, is that statements were recorded from people who were around during the death of this girl. So, it should not be assumed that nothing has been done in terms of investigations.
Mr. Nthenge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, when you are investigating something about a person you go and question the people who are close to that person. But you will find that the student's room mates and others who were always close to the student who died were never questioned. Why were they not questioned by the Indian Police?
An Hon. Member: And especially the boyfriend.
Dr. Manduku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is exactly what I was explaining but you told me to stop. There were very many other people, including the boyfriend, who were questioned by the police.
Prof. Anyang Nyong´o: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have the police report from India; Raymond was never questioned; Miss Bakari was never questioned; Richard was never questioned.
An Hon. Member: Why?
Prof. Anyang Nyong´o: Mr. Speaker, Sir, why these people are only given first names and not last names is also questionable. This nation must order a proper inquest into the death of this lady. 
Dr. Manduku: Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I suggest that if there are any other people the Questioner wants to be questioned regarding the death he should give their names to us and we pass them on to Indian authorities and investigations will be carried out still.
Mr. Speaker: We must move on to the next Question.
Mr. Magwaga: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to evade the question being raised by the Questioner. Why were these people, who were close friends of the deceased, not questioned?
Mr. Speaker: Order! I have already called the next question.
REPAIRS TO ROAD (B7) 
Mr. Muoki: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minster for Public Works and housing the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) Is the Minister aware that there are impassable sections along the Kibwezi-Kitui Road (B7) during the current rainy season? 
(b) What urgent plans does the Minister have to murram these impassable sections of this road, given that the current rains have cut off residents of this area from the rest of the country?
The Minister of Public Works and Housing (Prof. Ng´eno): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. 
(a) I am aware that there are impassable sections along the Kibwezi-Kitui Road (B7) during the current rainy season
(b) The Ministry plans to gravel this road as soon as possible; especially the sections which are impassable.
Mr. Muoki: Mr. Speaker, Sir, this road has been impassable for the last three days. I am urging the Minister to take urgent steps to ensure that the road becomes passable and he says he is trying his best. Can the Minister assure this House that he is going to take immediate action to correct the situation?
S1BHN08K
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 
RELEASE OF ACCIDENT DRIVER 
Mr. Oneko asked the Minister of State, Office of the President:-
(a) whether he is aware that on 16th December, 1992, at 9.00 p.m. in Naivasha, an accident occurred involving a car registration No. KAC 376Q and a lorry registration No. KUT 890, and that the driver of the lorry was arrested by the Naivasha police; and
(b) if the answer to (a) is in the affirmative, why the lorry driver was later released without any charges being preferred against him.
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. ole Sunkuli): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to <-/reply.d>
(a) Yes, I am aware.
(b) The lorry driver was not released as suggested by the hon. Questioner but was charged with the offence of using a motor vehicle on the road with all parts and equipment thereof not maintained in good working order, contrary to Section 55(1) of the Traffic Act (Cap 403) of the laws of Kenya, as per Naivasha Traffic Charge Register No. 1694/93 and Court File No. 2345 of 1993. The matter is pending before court, hence is sub-judice.
Mr. Speaker: Next Question.
Mr. Mulusya: Mr. Speaker, Sir, before I ask this Question, I wish to point out that I have not been supplied with a written reply.
FUNDS FOR KANGUNDO NYAYO WARDS 
Mr. Mulusya asked the Minister of State, Office of the President:-
(a) how much money was collected from the members of the public for the construction of Kangundo Nyayo Wards;
(b) where the money is banked and who the signatories to the bank accounts are; and
(c) when the money is likely to be utilised for the purpose for which it was collected.
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. ole Sunkuli): Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have submitted a copy of the written answer to the Clerk's Office.
Having said that, I beg to reply.
(a) A total of KShs. 3,461,308 was collected for Kangundo Nyayo Wards.
(b) The money is banked in four banking institutions, and the amounts banks, account numbers and their signatories are as follows:-
1. Kenya Commercial Bank, Moi Avenue, Nairobi. The account No. is 93/12/89 and the amount banked there is KShs. 1 million. The signatories are Mr. Elijah Kithimba, Hon. Justice M.G. Mulli, Mr. Charles Songa and Mr. Mueke Nguli. The account is operated by the Nairobi Steering Committee.
2. Kenya Commercial Bank, Tala Branch. The account No. is 165054131 and the amount banked is KShs. 1,570,308. The signatories are the District Officer, Kangundo, Mr. J.M. Ngutu, Hon. Justice M.G. Mulli and Mr. N.M. Kyengo.
3. Kenya Commercial Finance Company Ltd., Nairobi, Moi Avenue. The account No. is 017641/91/1561 and the amount banked is KShs. 852,168.20. The signatories are District Officer Kangundo, Mr. J.M. Ngutu, Mr.
N.M. Kyengo and Hon. Justice M.G. Mulli. The account is operated by the main Nyayo Wards Committee.
4. Delphis Bank, Nkrumah Road, Mombasa. The account No. is 02060913 and the amount banked is KShs. 103,000. The signatories are Mr. Bernard Mutiso and Mr. Constance.
(c) The work is already in progress. The X-ray unit work is completed while building materials are delivered on site on a daily basis. The ground breaking ceremony was done on 24th July, 1993.
Mr. Mulusya: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Assistant Minister is naturally a very good man, but he is either trying to cover somebody on a fraud which has already been committed or he has been misled. I have with me here some papers which I want to lay on the Table, which show a discrepancy of more than KShs. 2 million from that account, which has never been audited. In his attempt to hide the truth, the hon. Justice Guy Mulli decided, instead ---
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Mulusya! Right now you should know the provisions of Standing Order No. 73. You shall not talk adversely against any judge in this House.
Mr. Mulusya: Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I want to produce here is evidence to show that there is a cover up of a fraud. I have been given by the said judge, who is a member of the Nyayo Wards Committee, some bank reconciliation statements which do not tally and which lack simple mathematical ---
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Mulusya! You are making a speech and not asking a question.
Mr. Mulusya: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you may allow me to hand over these documents to the Assistant Minister ---
Mr. Speaker: Yes, do that.
Mr. Mulusya: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am tabling these papers and, in the process of doing so, what I have in front of me indicates that in the month of ---
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Mulusya! You know the Standing Orders that a question shall not be made the pretext for debate. If you want to Table any document, I have given you the opportunity to do so. Once you have done that and if you have any further questions to put to the Assistant Minister, go ahead and do so.
Mr. Boy: You are a <ea/>mtumba!
Mr. Mulusya: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Juma Boy in order --
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Mulusya! Mr. Mulusya, you had asked your Question from the Back Bench, you then moved from there to the Front Bench to Table the documents that you had and you should just do that then proceed to your original position and ask your question from there.
An Hon. Member: Mr. Mulusya was in the process of framing his question.
Mr. Speaker: I will now give him the last chance to make up his mind whether he wants to ask a question or not.
Mr. Mulusya: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to ask a question. The documents I have Tabled show a discrepancy of more than KShs. 2 million plus interest. Is the hon. Assistant Minister prepared to come to this House with bank statements showing withdrawals and deposits and also hold a probe into the accounts of Kangundo Nyayo Wards?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, with due respect to the hon. Member, we have not been informed which of the four accounts listed here has the said discrepancy. But I will definitely take it upon myself to ensure that the accounts are audited as usual and discrepancies will be dealt with in the normal way.
Mr. Obwocha: Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell this House why this Kangundo Nyayo Wards Committee was operating four different accounts? What was the reason for operating four different accounts some as far places as Mombasa?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the monies for Kangundo Nyayo Wards were raised from members of the public and the accounts were operated by different steering committees by persons resident within different places. Those who were residing in Nairobi were operating an account in Nairobi while those residing in Mombasa and Tala were operating accounts in those towns.
Mr. Nthenge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the purpose of collecting this money was to put up Nyayo Wards in Kangundo. Could the Assistant Minister tell the House why this was not done and when it will be done?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, when answering part (c) of the Question I said, and I wish to repeat, that the work is already in progress. The X-ray Unit works is completed while building materials are delivered on the site on a daily basis. The work is going on.
Mr. Mulusya: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Assistant Minister in order to mislead the House that provision of an X-ray Unit was part of the Nyayo Wards Project when he knows clearly that this unit was supposed to be supplied to Kangundo Hospital in 1988 but it was diverted to Kathiani Hospital when it was completed?
Mr. Speaker: What is the point of order there, Mr. Mulusya?
Mr. Mulusya: He is misleading the House.
Mr. Speaker: Go ahead and respond, Mr. Sunkuli.
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether or not this unit was diverted, is the hon. Member suggesting that Kangundo Nyayo Wards is not supposed to have an X-ray Unit?
Mr. Speaker: Next Question.
REGISTRATION OF STUDENTS 
Mr. Ndilinge asked the Minister for Education:-
(a) whether he is aware that over 45 students of Kitaingo Secondary School have not been registered for this year's KCSE Examinations; and
(b) if the answer to part (a) is in the affirmative, whether he could ensure that the students are registered so that they sit for the said examination.
The Assistant Minister for Education (Mr. Lengees): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
I am aware that 45 students of Kitaingo Secondary School had not been registered for this year's KCSE Examination. However, steps have been taken and 44 students have now been registered for KCSE except for one student, Master Mukeku Justus Mutiso, who has not been registered due to non-payment of the examination fees.
Mr. Ndilinge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, while appreciating that reply, could the Assistant Minister assure this House that this mistake will not be repeated in future?
An Hon. Member: Sema "Yes, Sir."
Mr. Lengees: Yes, Sir.
Mr. Mutahi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell the House the reason why there was a delay in registering these students?
Mr. Lengees: Mr. Speaker, Sir, all the students paid the examination fees on time but the headmaster who was there then went away with the money.
Mr. Ndilinge: Could the Assistant Minister tell the House whether plans are under-way to register the one student who was left out?
Mr. Lengees: Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is still time to register the student as long as he pays the required fees and depending on the subjects he is to take. The last date for registration was 31st May and some subjects like Agriculture and Home Science have already been taken but he can still pay for the rest of the subjects.
Dr. Otieno-Opiyo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if I heard the Assistant Minister correctly, he said that the students actually paid for the examinations but the headmaster took off with the money. He is now saying that these students should pay again? Which is which? Have they or have they not paid?
Mr. Lengees: Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said earlier, 44 students have already paid except for one student who did not pay for various reasons.
Mr. Speaker: Next Question.
FOOD PLANT AT MITUNGUU 
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Murungi is not in? Next Question.
OPERATION OF HEALTH CENTRE 
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Ruhiu is not in? Next Question.
BILLING OF TOWN RESIDENTS 
Mr. Speaker: Dr. Lwali-Oyondi is not? Next Question.
GRADING OF SABURU-DOLA ROAD 
Mr. Rai asked the Minister for Public Works and Housing when the Ministry will grade the Samburu-Silaloni-Mnago wa Dola Road in Kinango Division which is currently in a poor condition.
The Assistant Minister for Public Works (Mrs. Mwendwa): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
The road will be graded between mid-August and the end of September this year. I think it has already been graded.
Mr. Rai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the concern shown by the Assistant Minister because work on parts of this road has been done. So, I want some assurance from her as to whether something will be done on the other part of the road, because when the rains come then the road will be impassable.
Dr. Otieno-Opiyo: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister said work on the road has been done and no further question on it arises. So, is hon. Rai raising another Question under the pretext of the supplementary question?
Mr. Speaker: Order, Dr. Otieno-Opiyo! You know the rule that any hon. Member may on a supplementary question raise all points that are relevant to the original Question. So, the hon. Member is perfectly in order to press for further action. As a consequent of that you are absolutely out of order to try to block him. Proceed, Mrs. Mwendwa!
S1BHN09K
QUESTIONS BY PRIVATE NOTICE
DEATH OF LIEUTENANT KIBOBI 
Bishop Kimani: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State, Office of the President the following Question by Private Notice:-
(a) What circumstances lead to the death of John Tubei Kibobi, P/No. 21056, on Saturday 1oth July, 1993, while undergoing training at Moi Air Base?
(b) Why was the deceased's mother, a Mrs. Gladys Wanjiku Kibobi, from Ngamini Farm, Subukia, refused entry into her dead son's house in the barracks to collect his (deceased's) belongings?
The Assistant Minster of State, Office of the President (Mr. Manga): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) The officer was shot dead by a member of the regular Police Force, on 10th July, 1993, at the Kenya Bus Service terminal. It was at the time alleged that the officer was shot for obstructing the policeman during a swoop on hawkers. However, following further investigations, an officer service No.55175, police Constable <name/> has been arrested and charged with murder.
(b) The deceased's mother, a Mrs. Gladys Wanjiku Kibobi, was refused to enter her dead son's house in the barracks to collect his belongings, because the Army Board of Enquiry set up in accordance with the Armed Forces Act, had not concluded its work.
Bishop Kimani: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the answer given by the hon. Assistant Minister still leaves to be explained. Lieutenant John Kibobi was trained as a pilot at the Moi Air Force. On 10th July, the very material day he was shot is the same day that the aircraft that crashed at the Kereita Forest was found. Can the Assistant Minister tell this House, what relationship there is between the crash of the aircraft and the shooting of the deceased? Why was his mother refused to collect his belongings if you claim that he was shot outside the barracks?
Mr. Manga: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have said that the mother was refused to collect the belongings because investigations had not been concluded. That is according to the Armed Forces Act. As regards the accident, I would not know the relationship between the crash and the shooting because he was actually shot by the policeman.
Mr. Magwaga: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am glad that you put on spectacles to enable you to see me. May I find out from the Assistant Minister, whether the mother of the deceased can now collect the property?
Mr. Manga: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the investigations by the Board that was set up is due to be completed in a month's time , and then the mother will be allowed to collect the deceased's belongings.
Mr. Lwali-Oyondi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell us exactly what time this particular person was shot because, it would appear from the evidence given by the Bishop that he was shot in the evening? Could the Assistant Minister give his version, please?
Mr. Manga: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to put the hon. Member right. The Questioner has indicated that the killing has something to do with the accident. So, he did not actually bring out the time. But this happened and it was in the Press, and everybody knows when it happened.
Mr. Speaker: Next Question, Dr. Lwali-Oyondi!
SWEARING -IN OF DISTRICT COMMISSIONER 
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Local Government the following Question by Private Notice:-
(a) Is the Minister aware that the Nakuru District Commissioner has been taking part in council meetings without having been sworn in as an ex-officio Municipal Council Member?
(b) Is he further aware that the said District Commissioner has been ordering the cancellation of council meetings, despite his legal handicap?
(c) If the answer to (b) is in the affirmative, could the Minister tell the House where the District Commissioner gets "locus standi" in deciding when the Council meetings have to take place?
The Assistant Minister for Local Government (Mr: Walji): Mr. Speaker, Sir, beg to reply. 
(a) I am not aware that the DC is interfering with the Municipal Council of Nakuru.
(b) The DC of Nakuru has never ordered the cancellation of any Council meeting.
(c) The DC has never, at any time, decided the timing of the Council meetings. This is entirely the responsibility of the Council itself. 
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: Arising from the answer given, a copy of which I did not even get, the Assistant Minister is misleading the House because, first of all, the DC has never been sworn-in up to now. Secondly, the DC cancelled the meeting on 14th of May 1993 which was supposed to discuss the breakage and stealing goods from the kiosks and the---
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Lwali-Oyondi! Will you ask you question or, I let you say a few words then I go to the next question?
Dr. Lwali-Oyondi: Yes, please. I am asking whether the Assistant Minister is in order to mislead the House in view of the facts that I have already put forward? 
Mr. Walji: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to remind the hon. Member Dr. Lwali-Oyondi, that if he wants to live in the lake, then he should not fight with the fish because the fish will eat him! The DC was officially sworn-in on the 5th of August 1993 and also, he is Chairman of the Security Committee. If he finds that, that particular meeting was a risk at any time, then he would cancel the meeting. So, why fight with the fish?
Mr. Shikuku: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Arising from that intimidating statement by the Assistant Minister, who finds pleasure in talking about the "big fish" eating somebody, is he aware that in his first reply, he said that he was not aware, now he says if the DC feels there is  security problem, he has the right to cancel the meeting, which I think is true? What security is needed for a Council to meet inside the Council? It was not a public rally!
Mr. Walji: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the question was; "Is the Minister aware that the Nakuru DC has been talking part in Council meetings without having been sworn-in as an ex-officio Municipal Council Member? And I said I am not aware because he was already an ex-officio Member of the Council and he was sworn-in on 5th August 1993. If the said meeting was cancelled, then it must have been a security risk. 
RUINING OF FISHING INDUSTRY 
(Mr. Ogur): to ask the Minister for Tourism and Wildlife the following Question by Private Notice:-
(a) Is the Minister aware that there are fish trawlers operating in Mohuru Bay and Karungu Bay in the Nyatike Constituency section of Lake Victoria and ruining the young fish at an alarming rate, and that threatens the extinction of a certain breed of fish within three months?
(b) If the answer to (a) is in the affirmative, what action is the Minister planning to take to save the situation?
RAPE THREAT TO MS. ANYANZWA 
(Ms. Karua) to ask the Attorney-General the following Question by Private Notice:-
(a) Is the Attorney-General aware that Tigoni Police in September, 1993, threatened to rape the Secretary-General of the Anti-Rape Organization, Ms. Fatuma Anyanzwa, while she was in her custody?
(b) Has the Attorney-General directed investigations with a view to prosecuting the concerned officers?
Mr. Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Members!
For lack of time, Question No. 3 by Private Notice by hon. Ochola Ogur and Question No. 4 by Private Notice by hon. Martha Karua, will be deferred to Thursday afternoon. I do sympathise with them and I hope they do understand. That ends Question Time now.
Next Order.
NOTICE OF MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE
ENOOSUPUKIA LAND CLASHES 
Mr. Odinga: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg to move the following Motion:
THAT, this House do adjourn for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of National Importance, namely; the Land Clashes in Enoosupukia Location, Narok District, Rift Valley Province.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Do I understand that you want to raise that matter under Standing Order No. 20, or which one?
Mr. Odinga: Under Standing Order No. 20.
Mr. Speaker: Very well, then. I do agree that the matter is urgent, I also agree that it is of national importance and that it is specific. The House will understand, and I hope, you, Mr. Odinga, will also understand, that we cannot interrupt the time set for the Committee of Supply, between now and 6:30 p.m. Possibly, i will allow you to move that Motion---
Order! I am sorry. I find that your matter meets the conditions stated by Standing Order No. 20, subject to the House's approval, if you have support.
Well, it is apparent, you have support. You do have support, hon. Odinga. I cannot interfere with the business of the House on a day set for the Committee of Supply, between 3:30 p.m. and 6:30 p.m. I will allocate your time between 6:30p.m. and 7:30 p.m., this evening. Next Order!
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
MOTION
THAT MR. SPEAKER DO NOW LEAVE THE CHAIR 
Vote 14 - Ministry of Transport and Communications
The Minister of Transport and Communication (Mr. Otieno): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, allow me to open my remarks by paying tribute to His Excellency President Daniel Toroitich arap Moi. For his exemplary leadership of this country in general and, of my Ministry in particular. It is through his dedication, guidance and advice that this country is implementing difficult political and economic reforms, all concurrently with good success.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Vote of the Ministry of Transport  and Communications requires a sum of KSh.21,096,460, broken down between Recurrent Expenditure R.14 of KSh.18,456,220 and Vote D.14; Development Expenditure of KSh.2,640,240.
Mr. Ogur: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister is moving a very important Motion. Although some of us in our areas have never seen their home areas telephones, you can see how hon. Members are behaving when the Minister is moving the Motion. This is discourteous and I will ask the Chair to intervene because some of us want to listen to what the Minister is saying.
Mr. Speaker: Order! I would like to bring to the attention of the House especially those who have not got the grasp of the Standing Orders up to now the fact that when <-_an><+_a> hon. Member is on a point of order, he should not be interrupted through another point of order. Hon. members should always be patient until <-_an><+_a> hon. member is through with his point of order and then they can rise on points of order. Some hon. members <-_maybe><+_may be> a little impatient, but the rules must be followed. Hon. Minister, proceed.
The Minister for Transport and Communications (Mr. Otieno): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am asking for KSh.18,466,220 for the Recurrent Estimates Expenditure which does not include KSh.1.56 million Appropriations-in-Aid. My Ministry is charged with the responsibility of ensuring that transport and communications in this country are properly managed and developed. In this connection, my Ministry operates through various departments and State Corporations which include the following:-
The Departments at the Meteorological Department
The Directorate of Civil Aviation
The Civil Aviation Board
The Road Transport Branch
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as most hon. Members know, the state Corporations under my Ministry include the Kenya Airways and its subsidiaries, the Kenya Flamingo Airways Limited and the Kenya Air Freight Handling Services Limited. The Kenya Ports Authority has also two subsidiaries, the Kenya Ferry Services Limited and the <-/kenya> National Shipping Line Limited. I also have under my Ministry the Kenya Railways Corporation and the Kenya Ports and Telecommunications Corporations. The funds requested in our recurrent estimates will, therefore, be used for operational activities at the Ministry Headquarters and the respective departments. The provisions will be used to finance payments of personal emoluments; general maintenance of officers, the implementation of the National Road Safety council programme, contributions to international organizations, contributions to the Northern Corridor Secretariat and compensation for the Ferry operations and its maintenance.
S1BHN10K
COMMUNICATIONS FROM THE CHAIR 
Welcome to Swedish Members of Parliament 
Mr. Speaker: Non. Members, it is with great pleasure that I welcome, on behalf of the Kenya National Assembly, Members of the Swedish Parliament who are seated in the Speaker's Row. 
I will be excused if I do not pronounce their names correctly. They are:
Mr. Bertile Fiskesjoe - Third Deputy Speaker and Deputy Chairman of the Standing Committee on the Constitution;
Mr. Agne Hansson - Chairman of the Standing Committee on Housing;
Mr. Bengt Kindbom - Member of the Standing Committee on Health and Welfare; and 
Mrs. Rosa Oesth - Member of the Standing Committee on Health and Welfare.
They are in Kenya to visit various projects and programmes funded by the Swedish Government and to witness the working of the <-_Kenya><+_Kenyan> political system. They are accompanied by their spouses and an official from the Swedish Embassy. 
On our behalf, I wish them a pleasant stay in Kenya.
Thank you.
PETITION: THE CHAIR TO MAKE CONSIDERED RULING 
Mr. Speaker: Are you laying a paper?
Mr. Ndubai: It is a petition, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Ndubai! I think you have been in consultation with the staff of this House in respect of your intended petition. Until you have been advised, pleased, bear with us, Mr. Ndubai!
Mr. Ndubai: But, Mr. Speaker, Sir ---
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Ndubai! I will bring to your attention the fact that hon. Members have a right to air their views and they also have a right to present all matters to this National Assembly so long as they are in accordance with the law of the land and the Standing Orders.
I have had occasion in the past to advise this particular hon. Member on a matter that he brought up and after proper advice, he was able to give notice of his intended Motion. Even now, what we are asking the hon. Member is to allow the Chair and the staff of the national Assembly to look at the matter that he intends to bring and see whether it is in conformity with the procedure and the law that relates to the bringing of petitions here.
I may also bring to the attention of the House the fact that to the best of my recollection, in the very short time that I looked at the history of petitions, the last time such a thing was ever presented to this Parliament was in 1955. I have not had another occasion to look at what the contents of the petition are, how it is framed, and how it is presented. 
For the benefit of the House, today and for the future, we would like to do it right. If the House can give that understanding or that tolerance, we will all serve the future of this country much better.
Mr. J.N. Mungai: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. While I abide by your ruling, I wish to ask if I will be in order to seek guidance from the Chair with regard to how long it will take before you give a ruling, and whether such petitions can be raised or not? How long is it going to take?
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Members! Hon. Members know that at least for the last 10 months I have been your Speaker -  whenever I have promised to give a ruling on any matter, I take the earliest opportunity to do so. I must not only give a ruling, but I must give a firm ruling that is in keeping with our laws today and with the traditions of this House, and that from which we also borrowed our tradition, that is, the House of Commons, if our precedents and Standing Orders are not precise on the issue. 
The answer to the hon. Mugai is that I will give a ruling on that in the shortest time humanly possible. 
I think, Mr. Ndubai, I have already ---
Mr. Ndubai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have heard what you have said ---
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Ndubai, I hope you are not revisiting the issue.
Mr. Ndubai: Mr. Speaker, Sir, you should give me an opportunity to explain to you. You have been told by the Clerk what has been happening.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Order!
Mr. Ndubai: Standing Order Nos. 163-167 are very clear on Petitions. There was enough consultation ---
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Ndubai! You may have done your homework for a month or so to be able to present your Petition: i am not doubting that. What I am saying is that the Chair has not had the advantage of the time you have had. Because I am the one who is ultimately responsible for matters that are brought into this House , I will have to determine whether it is proper or improper to do so. That is not asking too much. Let us proceed.
Hon. Members: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Order! Not on that one. Hon. Members I have given the House an undertaking to make a ruling, and I have said that I will do so as soon as humanly possible. Let us proceed.
PAPERS LAID 
The following papers were laid on the Table:-
Sessional Paper No. 3 of 1993 on National Food Policy
(By the Minister for Agriculture, Livestock Development and Marketing)
Annual Report and Accounts of Kenya Ports Authority for the year ended 30th June, 1992 and the Certificate therof by the Auditor-General (Corporations)
(By the Minister for Agriculture, Livestock Development and Marketing on behalf of the Minister for Transport and Communications)
The Annual Report and Accounts of Kenya Bureau of Standards for the year ended 30th June, 1989 and the Certificate thereof by the Auditor-General (Corporations)
(By the Minister for Agriculture, Livestock Development and Marketing on behalf of the Minister for Commerce and Industry)
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 
Mr. Arte: Mr. Speaker, Sir, before I ask this Question on behalf of hon. Leshore, I wish to apologise for his absence from the House.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Arte, what are you apologising about? Just ask the Question!
BANDITRY MENACE IN WASO 
Mr. Arte, on behalf of Mr. Leshore, asked the Minister of State:-
(a) whether he is aware of the increasing banditry activities in Waso Division of Shamburu East Constituency, and,
(b) what arrangements he is making to contain these banditry activities in order to save innocent <ea/>wananchi.
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Awori): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) Yes, I am very much aware.
(b) Security patrols, ambushes and the provision of armed escorts have been intensified in the affected area, like any other part of the country, to contain the situation.
Mr. Arte: Mr. Speaker, Sir, while appreciating this very good answer from the hon. Assistant Minister, since 1992 about 13 raids have been carried out in this area. Despite the fact that the Assistant Minister had earlier on promised in this House that security measures would be taken and that the situation would be under control, this has still not happened. This year alone about five raids have been carried out in this area and one of the victims was a General Service Unit officer, who disappeared and up to now has not been found. Can the Assistant Minister seriously revisit his promises and tell the House what measures he is taking to contain the situation.
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I have said we have intensified the various security personnel in the area to try and contain this banditry that is a spill-over from far up north due to the various movements from the neighbouring countries.
Dr. Kituyi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Assistant Minister said that the Government is doing something, as it is doing in other areas of this country, to end this banditry. People from such an area should be very frightened because what the Government is doing in other clashes-affective areas in this country is negative. Can the Assistant Minister tell the house what concrete action the Government is taking to end banditry, apart from general finalities and excusing internal problems on neighbouring countries even when there are problems of banditry and clashes in the area without any bordering countries?
Mr. Awori: Mr Speaker, Sir, this is <+_a> democratic country and Members of Parliament are entitled to their own opinions. I have stated quite clearly that the Government is doing everything within its powers That means increasing the number of security officers and patrols in areas that are affected.
Mr. Farah: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to tell the House that the government is trying to increase the number of security forces, when we know that even if you tell the entire Kenyan armed forces to move to the North Eastern Province they are simply not the right quality of manpower to bring peace in that area? We also know that the more security forces you send to that area to carry out operations, the more innocent people they kill. This has just happened in Wajir, where they killed people - and an Assistant Minister here is a witness of this - instead of following up bandits.
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Farah! That is not a point of order. You have just made a statement which you are not entitled to but I will just let you go; so, you must be happy with me.
Mr. Falana: Mr. Speaker, Sir, banditry in Northern Kenya is quite different from that in any other part of Kenya. When the Assistant Minister talks of intensifying patrols and armed escorts, from experience, I can tell him that this has never worked and it will never work. The only solution to the problem in Northern Kenya is to recruit for security work people from that area. We put that request to the Government because both the killers and the victims are people from Northern Kenya. So, the only solution will be to use security people from Northern Kenya . Would the Government kindly consider recruiting an anti-banditry squad from Northern Kenya? This is because when ---
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Falana! I can understand why you get carried away; I know it is a very sensitive issue. But you know the rule that questions shall not be turned into a debate? Can you let the Assistant Minister respond to what you have said?
Mr. Awori: Mr: Speaker, Sir, the recruitment of personnel, whether security or otherwise, is carried out on merit and not on tribal basis. 
Mr. Speaker: Are you on a point of order, Dr. Wako?
Dr. Wako: Mr. Speaker, Sir, mine is not a point of order; I just wanted to tell the Assistant Minister ---
Mr. Speaker: Well, I am sorry for you. I was under the very mistaken belief that you were on a point of order, but since you are not on a point of order, let us hear Mr. Falana.
Mr. Falana: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This is a very sensitive issue because it involves the lives of Kenyans. Is the Assistant Minister in order to insinuate that I have requested for fresh recruitment from my Oromo community when there are many communities in Northern Kenya? All that we are saying is that we have qualified staff, be it in the Kenya Police or Kenya Army, from Northern Kenya, who only need to be mobilised. <ea_>Usiajiri wengine; tumia wale ambao tayari wako!<ea/>
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Falana! That is not a point of order.
Mr. Shikuku: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I thought I heard the hon. Member address you in English and then, towards the end, he changed to Kiswahili ---
Hon. Members: <ea_>Ahaa! Wacha wewe!<ea/>
S1BHN11K
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS 
PAYMENT OF ELECTION ALLOWANCES 
Mr. Kamuyu asked the Minister of State, Office of the President:-
(a) whether he is aware that the police officers in Nairobi were not paid their allowances like the other officers in provinces during the last multi-party general elections held on 29th December, 1992; and
(b) if the answer to (a) is in the affirmative, whether he could make immediate arrangements to release such allowances without further delay.
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Sunkuli): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) Yes, I am aware.
(b) I wish to inform the hon. Member that the Accounting Officer has been requested to make arrangements for the payment.
Mr. Kamuyu: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am grateful for the answer the Assistant Minister has given. However, he must know that the police in this country, particularly in Nairobi, are also human beings and one is surprised to note the way they have been let down. They work under bad conditions and lack basic facilities, earning very low salaries at the end of the day and this has continued to frustrate them a great deal. Could he tell the House why it has taken him 10 months to have these officers paid these allowances? Furthermore, could he tell us the total amount to be paid to Nairobi police officers involved in the last general elections? Perhaps he could give a breakdown of the amounts payable by rank?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member has asked three questions all at the same time but I will endeavour to answer one at a time. Regarding the amount of money payable to officers in Nairobi, I would like to inform the hon. Member and the House that there has been a delay in the payment. However, we have now got in touch with the Accounting Officer in charge, who is the Clerk of the National Assembly and requested that the police officers be paid Shs. 48 million. There are 11,822 security officers in Nairobi Area who worked during the last general elections and they will all <-_ben><+_been> paid in due course. 
Mr. Kamuyu: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I did hear the Assistant Minister complain that I combined too many questions and I apologise for that. However, I wanted to know how much each officer is getting according to his rank? Can he be kind enough to give the House this information? Could he also tell us when he will release the money?
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Kamuyu, that is not a point of order!
Mr. Kamuyu: On apoint of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Kamuyu! You yourself have already acknowledged the fact that you asked three questions in one go. Unless, you want to raise another supplementary question, let hon. Farah ask his question. If you still want to ask another question you will probably catch my eye to do that.
Mr. Farah: Mr. Speaker, Sir, arising from the Assistant <-_Ministers><+_Minister's> reply would he not agree with me that the failure to pay the police officers in Nairobi Area their dues, is the reason why they are practising a lot of corruption in Eastleigh among the Somali refugees?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think the hon. Member is confusing two things: We are not talking about payment of salaries but about payment of allowances as a result of the last general elections. I do not think that non-payment of salaries could lead to such a thing which the hon. Member is not quite right to state has actually happened.
Mr. Kamuyu: Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell the House how much will be paid to each constable and each inspector?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, that question was not anticipated when we received the original Question. In fact, it is a totally different question altogether.
Mr. Kamuyu: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker ,Sir. This question is quite relevant. So may I request, through the Chair, that the Assistant Minister be asked to answer the question because the people in Narobi and the nation as a whole would like to know the position regarding this question?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if it is the wish of the House that I do the mathematics involved here for the hon. Member, I will do so. However, I said that Shs. 48 million would go to 11,822 security officers. The hon. Member should do the mathematics and divide this money among that number of officers.
Mr. Anyona: Mr. Speaker, Sir, when we speak about the police, an impression is created that we are against them. We would like to demonstrate, using this Question, that, in fact, we defend everybody's rights. This problem is not just in Nairobi. As far as I am concerned, it affects many other parts of the country where the police and many other officers have not been paid their allowances. Would the Assistant Minister tell this House whether the problem is with the Electoral Commission or with the district commissioners who may have been given the money, but did not pay the police and the other officers involved?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have now sorted out the problem by getting in touch with the Accounting Officer who, as the hon. Member is now aware, is the Clerk of the National Assembly. It was this consultation that caused all this delay. However, we have gone through the problem and I am glad that, for a change, the Opposition is thinking about the welfare of our policemen.
Mr. Mathenge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if the Assistant Minister tells us that the Government is going to commit Sh. 48 million to the police, does he mean to tell us that all the other civil servants who took part in the elections have been paid their allowances or are we going to have to ask another Question here relating to unpaid civil servants?
Mr. Sunkuli: Mr. Speaker, Sir, as far as my office is aware, we have paid all the other civil servants.
SCHOOL ACTIVITY FEES 
Mr. Mutani asked the Minister for Education:-
(a) whether he could inform the House whether primary school activity fees are uniform throughout the country; and
(b) how much is charged in Nithi Constituency per parent.
The Assistant Minister for Education (Mr. Komora): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) Permanent school activity fees are not uniform throughout the country.
(b) The activity fees charged in Tharaka-Nithi District is Sh. 75/= per pupil in Standards VI to VIII as per the District Education Board Minute No. 5/9/93 of 14th May, 1993. The money is collected to meet the cost of running drama festivals, music festivals, athletics, ball games and gymnastics.
Mr. Mutani: Mr. Speaker, Sir, it was brought to my attention that some school heads had overcharged parents by asking them to pay between Sh. 75/= and Sh. 100/= per child. In some of these primary schools, a parent may have more than five children in the same school. Will the Assistant Minister order these school heads to refund money to parents who have been overcharged?
Mr. Komora: Mr. Speaker, Sir, this charge is not per parent; but per pupil.
Dr. Otieno-Kopiyo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell the House what the criterion used is in arriving at this figure of Sh. 75/= per pupil, particularly since he says that this charge is not uniform throughout the country?
Mr. Komora: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the matter is normally decided by the local district education board and each board has its own criterion.
DEFECTS IN PUBLIC PHONES 
Mr. Anyona asked the Minister for Transport and Communications:-
(a) whether he is aware that most public telephones are defective and that, as a result of these defects, members of the public lose money while making telephone calls; and
(b) what he will do to rectify the situation.
The Assistant Minister for Transport and Communications (Mr. Morogo): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) It is not true that most public telephones are defective. The telephone, like any other equipment, may break down from time to time. Whenever there is a breakdown, the Kenya Posts and Telecommunications Corporation (KPTC) has units and mechanisms to repair telephones.
(b) The KPTC has instituted yellow telephone booths in various towns in this country from which the public can report to the management any telephone breakdown. There is also a special task force to attend to all maintenance matters related to public telephones.
Mr. Anyona: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have always thought that the correct premise to start from when approaching a problem is to accept the reality on the ground. If you start by denying the reality, I do not see how you can find a solution to the problem at hand. The Ministry has asserted that it is not true that most public telephones are defective. So, from there on, whatever else the Assistant Minister says is meaningless. It is public knowledge that public telephones throughout the country are defective for one <-_reasons><+_reason> or another. I am not necessarily blaming the Ministry for this, but would the Assistant Minister, having said that most public telephones are not defective, carry out a survey in Nairobi and other places and tell us exactly how many public telephones are defective and how many are not?
Mr. Morogo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Question, as asked, states that most public telephones are defective, and what we are saying is that some are certainly defective. We are not denying that, but not most of them are defective. As I have already stated, any time there is a breakdown, we take measures to repair these telephones.
As to how many telephones are broken down in Nairobi, this is a question I did not anticipate. Maybe, we will look into that later.
Mr. Farah: Mr. Speaker, Sir, my own personal experience in Liboi, 200 kilometres from Garissa and situated in my constituency, is that the telephones do not work for half the month and every time technicians have to be brought from Garissa to repair these telephones. This costs a lot of money. In the light of that, could the Assistant Minister have technicians posted to the places where such incidents occur? It is in that particular place that there is a massive refugee population, and postal and telephone services would assist these people a lot if they were provided in the right way.
Mr. Morogo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I said that there is a task force looking into the issue of the broken down telephones whenever such cases arise. When we are satisfied that there is such a break down, we will dispatch part of the task force to the hon. Member's area.
Mr. Farah: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to be telling us about a task force that would be brought from Garissa every time there is a telephone break down and which would consume thousands of shillings of taxpayers' money when such break downs should cost only about KShs. 100/-? Why can we not have some technicians present in Liboi to repair telephones whenever there is a damage? We also know that the technicians claim a lot of allowances whenever this happens so that they can misuse public funds.
Mr. Morogo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did mention that should this task force be satisfied that there is need for a technician to be stationed permanently at Liboi, we will do that.
Mr. Obure: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it in order for the Assistant Minister to lie to this House and the public at large, or mislead this House, when it is well known that even the telephone booth in Parliament Buildings is broken down deliberately so that we can pay for the money that has been looted from the Kenya Posts and Telecommunications?
S1BHN12K
MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE 
ENOOSUPUKIA LAND CLASHES 
Minister for Labour and Manpower Development (Mr. Masinde): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do move that the House do now adjourn.
Mr. Odinga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, under Standing Order No.20, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent national importance, namely, the land clashes in Enoosupukia Location, Narok District, Rift Valley Province.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a very serious matter which has come to the notice of this House. We have been informed that the County Council of Narok, gave notice to some people to move away from a place they call "a water catchment" area near the forest. We understand that some people calling themselves "the morans" and yet they were not morans, <OM/> are the ones who have been killing people in this area. The truth of the matter is that these <-_>are these<-/> are artificial morans who are recruited by certain people either from regular police or from General Service Unit to cause chaos in this area.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, let us give the subject that we are discussing the seriousness it deserves. I hope we will not come back to this level of noise again because it will be consuming time for nothing.
The Minister of State, Office of the President (Mr. Kones): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir.
Hon. Members: Sit down! Sit down!
Mr. Kones: I am on a point of order!
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, Mr. Odinga!
The Minister of State, Office of the President (Mr. Kones): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, hon. Jaramogi Oginga Odinga has made a very serious allegation to the effect that the Masaai who were in Enoosupukia were actually recruited from the Police and General Service Unit and were taken there in the name of morans. Could the hon. Member make a clear substantiation of this statement?
Mr. Odinga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I know how I could interfere with people if I wanted. If you people do not want this House to be reasonable and put things right, we shall also do the same thing you are now doing if you do not want to keep quiet. I want everybody to live--- 
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Address the Chair.
Mr. Odinga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will address the Chair. 
I want everybody to understand that we are very concerned about this issue. The other day, one of the Ministers from the land of the Maasai addressed a meeting and warned the people in Enoosupukia. Immediately after that, he received the so-called Maasai morans. However, these were not morans. Yesterday, the President said that some <-_cattles><+_cattle> were slashed all over their bodies. However, can you compare cattle with people? If cattle go into your garden and you find them there, you can cut them up the way you want, but if some people treat their brothers like cattle, that is too bad.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members! I think hon. Odinga is reacting to the request that was made that he substantiates what he said. Therefore, you do not have to interrupt him.
Mr. Odinga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am very happy with your <-_defense><+_defence> for me. You have done the right thing.
I want to appeal to my brothers from the other side of the Chamber and the President---
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Odinga, did you get the point of order requiring you to substantiate the allegation you made?
Mr. Odinga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, those hon. Members do not know points of order. Ask that hon. Member to tell you the number of the Standing Order he is referring to.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, Mr. Odinga! Hon. Members, I kind of regret that I have to stand up in a Motion like that, when time is of the essence, and take one or two seconds. I am afraid, if you make an allegation, which is serious in the view of the Speaker and the Minister in charge of the police demands a substantiation, as has happened, you are under obligation to substantiate or withdraw the allegation. This is a very simple matter.
Mr. Odinga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister I am talking about is hon. ole Ntimama.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am sorry about this, Mr. Odinga. I think the allegation you made was simple. You mentioned police officers, and that is what the Minister objected to.
Mr. Odinga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me finish making the point I am making. When I have made my point, the Minister concerned will reply to the Motion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members! A motion like this can serve the purpose it was intended to serve only if both sides will accept the spirit of give and take. Be prepared to hear each other whether you like each others' views or not, and be prepared to live within the rules of the Standing Orders. It is a very simple matter, Mr. Oginga Odinga, and I regret that I have to take a few minutes making this clarification. Mr. Odinga, you made a wild allegation against the police that they are actually the morans, and the Minister in charge of the Police Force asked you to substantiate. I am afraid that is a simple matter, but you will have to substantiate.
Mr. Odinga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have photographs here.
Hon. Members: Hear! Hear!
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members! Order! Mr. Odinga, are you laying those on the Table?
Hon. Members: Yes! Yes!
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! The hon. Member has tabled a document in substantiation, and it is up to those--- There are procedures for verifying the validity of documentary substantiation and then we come back to it. For the moment we will continue.
Mr. Odinga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir---
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Members.
Mr. Kamuren: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Overruled! Overruled!
Mr. Odinga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, these things are happening and we are pushing it on. The President of the country, who is in charge of the security of this country, should be able to stop all these clashes which are taking place all over the country. They must know that men are men everywhere. It is not that it is only one place which has men who can fight. Men are men everywhere and we are not going to play around with people who try to provoke others for no reason. The President of this country should stop his Ministers from playing about with violence. If the Ministers are playing about with violence, then how will it be with those of us who are free and who can do anything anywhere? We want peace. We talk about peace, and it can only come about if Ministers also observe peace. The whole country is now tired. They always say that it is the Opposition who provoke ugly situations. How about the violence today which is provoked by a Minister in daylight? We would like the President to take action and kick that Minister out of the Cabinet.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I would like to inform you that after consultations with the Chief Whips from both the Government side and from the three Opposition parties, we have agreed that the Mover be allowed 15 minutes, - which he has been allowed - the official Government responder be allowed 15 minutes as well and every other contributor, be allowed five minutes.
The Assistant Minister for Information and Broadcasting (Mr. Nassir): <&/>Kiswahili 
The Assistant Minister for Information and Broadcasting (Mr. Nassir): <&/>Kiswahili 
Hon. Members: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Hon. Members, it looks like, I am sorry to say, that some of us are not very serious about the seriousness of the subject before us. If we were serious we would at least hear each other. If you want to raise points of order on any statement that another hon. Member has made, you should appreciate that no statement from the opposite side is likely to be pleasant to you. It is really up to us to make this debate a success and in that way the time used will not have been taken up in vain.
The Assistant Minister for Information and Broadcasting (Mr. Nassir): <&/>Kiswahili 
Mr. Kibaki: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We are dealing with a very serious matter.
An hon. Member: You are Gema!
Mr. Kibaki: It does not matter whether people with rotten heads want to shout "Gema" around! But the truth has to be faced because we shall all live in this nation and no one is going to evict another one by force and pretend that he has three souls and that he can live for ever like a stone;  none of us is of that nature because we are human beings. But what we are seeing is a programme of dealing with particular communities, which is organised, supervised and properly incited and executed; in fact, it is a long-term programme. It is, therefore, quite clear that---
The Minister of State, Office of the President (Mr. Kalweo): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My point of order is very simple. Since hon. Kibaki has made the allegation that this is a programme which is properly organised, can he say who has organised it?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Kalweo, that is a personal opinion! Will you continue, Mr. Kibaki?
Mr. Kibaki: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am speaking my own mind and nobody is going to silence us. So, let us be tolerant with each other. The fact of the matter is that we are demanding that those people who have been shot dead should not be buried before a proper post-mortem is done. We in, in particular, want a post-mortem done on a businessman called Mr. Wango because we would like know the person who shot him dead. We do not want these people to be buried an a hurry. We are being told that they were attacked by local morans but we know guns were used. Those who survived - unfortunately, the organisation was not good enough to enable the killing of everybody - say that guns were being used.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, they were spoken to and they know what they were told. We are saying that proper post-mortems must be done before these people are buried in a hurry. Equally important is that there is no point in the Government denying that they knew what happened. Indeed, when the so-called 500 morans attacked innocent men and women when they were hiding at a church, the Chief, Assistant Chief, District Officer, District Commissioner and the Minister all knew those people were hiding there, and they knew they were going to attack that particular church. They did attack that church. That attack was known to the Government and was condoned by the same Government. In fact, they have celebrated over it. Equally important---
The Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Order! Order hon. Ndicho! Order, hon. Dr. Kituyi! Hon. Members, it looks like some of the Members want the House to adjourn. If that is not the case, we only have one hour and I will appeal to Members of both sides to maintain order because the House is taking that hour to waste. Continuation of business will depend on the conduct of both sides of the House. Order! No Member has a right or any justifiable excuse to stand up without catching the Speaker's eye. Order! Order, hon. Nyanja! I still insist that some Members want the House to adjourn. If that is not the case, may we spend the rest of the time in a manner which is befitting the importance of this subject.
S1BHN13K
QUESTIONS BY PRIVATE NOTICE 
PAYMENT OF CONTRACTORS 
(Mr. Raila) to ask the Minister for Culture and Social Services:-
(a) Could the Minister inform the House why M/s Ambajo Obudho, a General Engineering and Contractor, who was awarded a tender to construct car shade at Nyayo National Stadium has not been paid his dues since 1970?
(b) What urgent steps is the Ministry taking to ensure that the payment is effected?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, Mr. Raila's Question, which is listed down as the first Question by Private Notice, is not on today. For reasons which have been accepted by Mr. Speaker the Question has been deferred to tomorrow. So, we will go to Mr. Mbui's Question.
FOOD SHORTAGE AT KERUGOYA HOSPITAL
Mr. Mbui: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Health the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) Is the Minister aware that there is a shortage of food and medical supplies in Kerugoya District Hospital?
(b) Will the Minister, as a matter of urgency, provide funds to procure food and medical supplies for this hospital?
The Assistant Minister for Health (Mr. Criticos): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) I am aware that occasionally there is a shortage of food and medical supplies to Kerugoya District Hospital. This financial year the hospital has been allocated KShs. 920,000/- for purchase of patient food and the first instalment of KShs. 568,000/- has already been issued to the hospital to run it up to December, 1993. The balance will be released to the hospital in December. The Health Management board should see how it can reschedule payments and even how to use some of the cost-sharing funds to pay for supplies when the hospital runs short of funds on certain occasions. As for the medical supplies the hospital has been receiving its share of medical supplies from the Medical Supplies Co-ordinating Unit on a regular basis whenever they are available. During this month of October the hospital received general drugs from this unit on the 9th, 15th and 22nd.
(b) The necessary measures have already been instituted, as I have already explained.
Mr. Mbui: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not sure that the Minister is really not aware although in the written answer he says that he is not aware. Is he really aware or not?
Mr. Criticos: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I must apologise to the hon. Member because when I received the reply this morning, I was not satisfied with it, so I went and did my own research on this particular Question in Kerugoya District Hospital. I have the revised answer which I asked the Ministry to deliver to the hon. Member this afternoon.
Mr. P.N. Ndwiga: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think the Minister is misleading this House. It is common knowledge in this country that virtually all Government hospitals have no food for patients. There is a specific case of Embu Hospital where the patients have to be fed by relatives. The patients have also got to use their own <-/pajamas> in the hospital. Why is the Minister misleading this House and the nation?
Mr. Criticos: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is a lot of loud consultations in the House and I am unable to hear the hon. Member's point of order. Could he repeat it please?
Mr. P.N. Ndwiga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I said that the Assistant Minister is deliberately misleading this House because it is common knowledge in this country that most Government hospitals in this country have no food, clothing nor drugs. I gave Embu District General Hospital as an example of a hospital where patients have to be clothed and fed by their relatives. There are neither drugs nor clothing in the Hospital for patients. Why is the Assistant Minister misleading this House?
Mr. Criticos: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Ministry has never misled this House. A typical example is today when I was not happy with my answer so that I went to do my own research in Kerugoya General Hospital. We do have the problem of drugs as a nation, but the hon. Member cannot say that the Ministry of Health is misleading the House that there are no drugs at all in Kenya. We have a problem with the supply of drugs. We have not been receiving drugs and this will continue up to the first week of November.
Mr. Ndwiga: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, people are dying in the hospital because of lack of food and medicine. Can the Assistant Minister explain why?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Next Question.
LOSS OF UNCOLLECTED MILK
Mr. Mutahi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Co-operative Development the following Question by Private Notice:-
(a) Is the Minister aware that Mukurweini Dairy Farmers are losing an average of Shs. 1,050,000/- per month in terms of uncollected milk in the evening?
(b) In view of the serious economic problems facing these farmers, could the Minister urgently direct Kenya Co-operative Creameries to install a cooling plant at Mukurweini township?
The Minister for Co-operative Development (Mr. Munyi): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
The Kenya Co-operative Creameries (KCC) has a vigorous expansion programme to install cooling plants country-wide depending on milk production, availability of land and infrastructure.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mukurweini Dairy Farmers should submit their request for installation of a cooling plant at Mukurweini Township and I am aware that my friend is the chairman of the Mukurweini Dairy Farmer Co-operative Society.
Mr. Mutahi: On a point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Would the Minister withdraw or substantiate that I am the chairman of Mukurweini Diary Farmers Co-operative Society because there is no such a thing?
Mr. Munyi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, he is aware that he is not the Chairman of Mukurweini Diary Farmers Co-operative Society, but the Chairman of another co-operative society in Mukurweini. He is aware!
Mr. Murungi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Minister explain why K.C.C. is buying milk from farmers at Shs. 9/- per kilo while they are selling the same to consumer at Shs. 23/- per kilo when it is charged with the responsibility of giving a fair deal to milk farmers in country?
Mr. Munyi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member is aware that there is a law which says you should be paid Shs. 10/- per litre of milk; no less, no more.
Mr. Mutahi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a Government policy for the people of this country to be self-sufficient both financially and in food. The Government encourages people to work hard. Mukurweini people have really worked hard to produce several litres of milk every evening, but this cannot be delivered to the K.C.C. Is it possible for the Ministry to give priority to Mukurweini Constituency and put up a cooling plant for the storage of evening milk produced by the dairy farmers.
Mr. Munyi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member should be grateful that the Government did agree to establish a cooling plant in that area. If I were you, I would be grateful. You should appreciate.
Mr. Mutahi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the cooling plant is not in my Constituency. It is in Murang'a District. What I am saying is that we are losing at least Shs. 1 million per month. Can the Minister do something to build a cooling plant in Mukurweini Constituency?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Next Order!
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
SHOOTING OF VILLAGERS IN BUNGOMA
The Minister of State, Office of the President (Mr. Kalweo): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there was a report that appeared in some sections of the press today that armed Sabaot tribesmen attacked a family in Machaka Village in Bungoma District on 26th October, 1993.
On 26th October, 1993 at 10.00 a.m in Machaka Village, Sirisia sub-location in Bungoma District, an nunknown number of gansters armed with automatic weapons raided the home of Mr. Makwere. They shot him dead together with 10 members of his family, who included his wife, Hellen Cheboi and a few visitors. One man, Ngomuji Panpet was injured. The victims are all Sabaots who were in Mr. Makwere's house. They had gathered there for a marriage ceremony and while they were enjoying their food, they were attacked. As soon as the incident was reported, the members of the Provincial and District Security Committees rushed to the area in order to establish the motive of the attack and take appropriate measures. So far, the motive has not as yet been established. Intensive investigations are under way. Members of the public should know that the reports appearing in some sections of the local Press are grossly inaccurate, inconsistent and insensitive to details.
Members of one community have been incorrectly depicted as the aggressors while they are the victims of the wanton attack which has left helpless and innocent men, women and children dead. The attackers have not, so far, been identified.
It is very irresponsible for the Press to publish such incorrect information without confirming with the authorities on the ground. The reports may have been unwittingly meant to heighten tension between the two communities for unknown reasons by the Press representatives on the ground. The Government views these reports seriously and it demands corrective measures to be instituted immediately.
The Government further wishes to reassure the residents of the area that every effort will be made to apprehend the perpetrators of the crime. The Government has already taken measures aimed at ensuring that peace and security are maintained in the area. Nobody should take the law into his own hands as the Government is taking important action. The Press should also desist from publishing misleading information which would both confuse and complicate situation which is already being taken care of.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I urge that any person in the country or within that area who might be owning a gun or knows someone with a gun to come forward and report this matter because the Government is seriously taking the necessary steps on this matter.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Hon. Members: Point of order!
The Deputy Speaker: Mr. Munyasia!
Mr. Munyasia: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am grateful to the Minister for the report that he has made. I do not have any quarrel with the report I got this morning because, whether those killed were Sabaot or Bukusu, all are my constituents, and that is what concerns me.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, incidents of this kind are very common now in that area. I would like the Minister to tell us whether he sees any connection between the murder of a businessman in his grinding mill in Cheptais, last week, and this particular murder in this week.
The Minister of State, Office of the President (Mr. Kalweo): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the information which I have is that no businessman has been killed in that area. Anybody who was killed was within this area where a marriage ceremony was taking place.
So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also inform the House, that, as I am talking here there is enough security trying to comb that area, not only for this incident alone but for many others because we know that the area borders a neighbouring country and the Government is sensitive and is looking into this issues very seriously.
The Assistant Minister for Tourism and Wildlife (Mr. Kisiero): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to thank the Minister for clarifying the report that appeared in the Press today. However, at the same time, although the Minister has not said who killed those innocent people, I am sure in the minds of the Sabaot, they know or, at least, they believe that their neighbours must have killed them. But let us leave that to the Provincial Administration to pursue and give us the information.
Hon. Members: On a point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
S1BHN14K
QUESTIONS BY PRIVATE NOTICE 
MONEY FOR TRANS NZOIA WARDS 
Mr. Kirwa: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State, Office of the President the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) How much money was collected from members of the public for the construction of Trans Nzoia Nyayo Wards?
(b) Where is the money banked and who are the signatories of the bank account?
(c) When will the money be utilised?
The Assistant Minister, Office of the President (Mr. Awori): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) A total of Kshs 677,601 was collected for the Trans Nzoia Nyayo Wards.
(b) The money is banked at the Kenya Commercial Bank, Kitale Branch, and the signatories are the District Commissioner, Trans Nzoia, and the district accountant.
(c) The funds will be utilised when sufficient funds have been raised to meet the Nyayo Wards construction cost.
Mr. Kirwa: Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is the background to this Question. In 1989, the district development committee was told that the money in question was Kshs 1.2 million. In 1990, we were told it was Kshs 932,000. In 1991, we were told it was Kshs 328,000 and in 1992, we were told there was no money. Today, we are told that it is Kshs 667,601. Can the Assistant Minister reconcile the situation and tell us exactly what the account number of the money in question is?
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not sure of the other figures that were given, but the correct figure is as I have given, that is, Kshs 677,601, and it is in Kenya Commercial Bank Account, No. 101038669. The account is there, and it is quite open for the hon. Member to check and see what amount of money is there, and whether there have been any withdrawals. He will find that there have been no withdrawals whatsoever, and that the figure I have given is the amount of money that was collected during the <ea/>Harambee.
Mr. Kirwa: Mr. Speaker, Sir, can the Assistant Minister table a statement of this account since its inception? The correction that I would like to make is that there was never any <ea/>Harambee but the money was only collected from members of the public.
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am quite willing and ready to call for the bank statement and to table it.
Mr. Ndilinge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the question also asks who the signatories were.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Members! He has not sat down!
Mr. Ndilinge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, according to the hon. Member who asked the Question, in 1989, the account was reading millions of shillings. Now, they are talking of Kshs 600,000. Where has the money gone, and who spent the it?
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your indulgence, may I call for the bank statement from Kitale and table it? It will indicate whether there have been any withdrawals or not.
Hon. Members: There have been! There have been!
Mr. Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Members!
Mr. Awori: The statement will be tabled here as soon as possible.
Mr. Kapten: Mr. Speaker, Sir, we know that this money which was collected for Nyayo Wards was misappropriated by the local administration. Can the Assistant Minister tell us when he is going to table this bank statement, so that we may know when the money was banked in the account, how much was withdrawn, by whom it was withdrawn and the signatories. We also want to know the interest that has accrued on that money.
Mr. Awori: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have given an undertaking that when I leave the precincts of this building, I will call for the bank statement from 1989, and it will tell us the working of the account. I have already given the signatories as the district commissioner and the district accountant.
Mr. Speaker: Very well then. Next Question.
COLLAPSE OF MACHAKOS UNION BANK 
Mr. Nthenge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Co-operative Development the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) What led to the collapse of the Machakos Union Farmers Savings Bank?
(b) What action has so far been taken to ensure that the officials who embezzled the money are taken to court?
The Minister for Co-operative Development (Mr. Munyi): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) The Machakos Union Farmers Savings Bank closed its doors to customers in January, 1993, when it could no longer meet the depositors' demand of withdrawal because the loanees were not paying their debts as expected.
(b) Suspected embezzlement of money by the officials running the organization has been investigated and, in this regard, a team of audit officers has been detailed to carry out special audit covering the period going back to 1988.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this exercise is continuing with the specific objective of identifying any form of embezzlement or mismanagement as far as the former management officials of the organisation are concerned. Once the exercise is completed, the necessary appropriate action will be taken against the identified culprits.
Mr. Nthenge: Mr. Speaker, Sir, when somebody borrows money, they normally invest it in saleable property. Can the Minister tell us why, if the loanees did not repay the loan, their property were not auctioned to recover the money?
Mr. Munyi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to tell the hon. Member that the Machakos Co-operative Union does not only operate in Machakos, but also in Makueni. They also have other activities. On the issue that he has just mentioned, action has been taken against those who have been accused for having embezzled the money belonging to the farmers. So, action has been taken.
Col. Kiluta: Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the answer that has been given by the Minister, is he aware that this money was from the farmers and was intended to pay school fees for their children? What action does the Minister intend to take to ensure that, at least, these farmers are paid some substantial amounts to pay the school fees to enable their children to go back to school?
Mr. Munyi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, you can see that some of the members of our society are not really trusted. What the hon. Member has just said is exactly what the Government is doing to see that the farmers and the people in that area are uplifted. Action has been taken and I fully agree with the views of the hon. Member, and I would like to assure him that their views will be taken into consideration.
Mr. Gethenji: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the co-operative department is charged with a very important responsibility of looking after the interests of the farmers; these are the small-scale producers of coffee, tea and other crops. I am afraid that one of the problems that the farmers face is that co-operative officers have become involved in corrupt practices. They embezzle money in conjunction with senior officials of the co-operative societies. What is the Minister doing to ensure that co-operative officers are not involved in embezzlement of the money of small-scale farmers, since this practice is rampant in the country?
Mr. Munyi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, what hon. Gethenji is trying to ask is exactly what I have just answered.
Dr: Otieno-Kopiyo: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is hon. Nyachae really in order to cross the Floor right in the middle of the Chamber instead of going to the Bar and crossing from there?
Mr. Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Members. I would like to hear Dr. Kopiyo's point of order. Dr. Kopiyo, why have you been changing sitting places and your voice as well? I would like to hear what the hon. Member is saying so that I can be able to give guidance to the House.
Order, Dr. Kopiyo! You must obey the law of gravity when I am on my feet.
Dr. Otieno-Kopiyo: Mr. Speaker, Sir, hon. Nyachae crossed the Floor right in the middle of the Chamber. I thought that one should to walk to the Bar and then ---
Mr. Speaker: Order! Order! The hon. Member is perfectly in order. A Member wishing to move from one side of the House to the other must proceed to the Bar bow and then cross the Floor there.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Ogur! I think we have come to the end of Question time. I have to give a chance to hon. Members who have sought my indulgence to raise points of order. These are hon. Robert Mungai, hon. Farah and hon. Shikuku. We will begin with hon. Farah.
POINTS OF ORDER
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT: MEMBER SHOULD SEE MR. SPEAKER
Mr. Farah: Mr. Speaker, Sir, my point of order is under Standing Order No. 20 and it is on a question of national security. On the 3rd ---
Mr. Speaker: Order! Order, hon. Farah! You have not given me any notice as required by that Standing Order. I thought you were asking for an explanation.
Order, hon. Farah! The only time an hon. Member has a forum in the House is when he is within the Standing Orders of this House, and you know what Standing Order No. 20 says. If you have to raise any matter concerning Standing Order No. 20, you must give notification to the Speaker in writing, two hours before the House sits. You have not given me that notice in writing and I think it is important for hon. Members to be honest with themselves and with the Chair.
Mr. Farah: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am seeking a Ministerial Statement.
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Farah! I think you will have to consult the Chair again. Members must be honest with themselves, the Chair and the House. In other words, they must be very transparent.
ARREST OF MEMBER: PRESS REPORTS NOT AUTHORITATIVE
Mr. Ndicho: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My point of order concerns what has been reported today in the Daily Nation. It reads:
"The Nakuru MP, Bishop Kimani, was arrested by police yesterday because of publishing some information on 21 August..."
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you know very well that hon. Bishop Kimani asked this Question in this House on an incident where an aircraft had sprayed chemicals in this area to control quela birds. Is it in order for policemen to arrest Members of Parliament when they ask Questions in this House? If I know that I am going to ask a Question and the police from, for instance, Ruiru, Juja or Thika will be waiting for me along the road to arrest me because of that, then I will be forced to abstain from asking Questions.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, under Standing Order No. 45 (i), I want to ask whether under Standing Order No. 171 (4) we can move a Motion of Adjournment to discuss this particular incident.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Hon. Members know quite clearly the provisions of Section 4 of the Powers and Privileges Act which provides that no Member shall be liable, either criminally or civilly, for any matter that he has raised in the House. We also know, under our Standing Orders, that we do not take newspaper reports as conclusive on any matters that are reported therein. I think the House had better wait until the hon. Member himself is here, because he will be in a better position to give the exact facts to this House. I will not bend the law, and the law is clear on this.
Also, newspaper reports are not authoritative and, therefore, they cannot be made the subject of debate in the House.
The Assistant Minister for Labour and Manpower Development (Mr. Komen): Send him out!
Mr. Speaker: Order! Hon. Komen, I have said several times here that the Chair is competent to make rulings on behalf of the House. I have already made that ruling, and I think the best course is for the Members to respect it and proceed. I do not want it to be revisited ---
S1BHN15K
MOTION 
THAT, MR. SPEAKER DO NOW LEAVE THE CHAIR 
The Minister for Health (Mr. Angatia): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to make Members of Parliament realise that the Ministry of Health is a service Ministry whose aim is to improve the health of the people so that they enjoy good health and become economically active all the year round by putting more emphasis on prevention of diseases and treatment of those diseases which cannot be prevented.
Mr. Ogur: On apoint of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We are discussing a very important vote and for this reason, I would request that the Minister speaks loudly and very clearly for us to hear. We must hear him clearly!
Mr. Speaker: Yes, Mr. Ogur is quite right here. I have dealt with this issue before and I have told hon. Members to try as much as possible to make themselves audible. However, it may also help the House much more if hon. Members themselves would consult each other in low tones so as to allow those of us who do not have extra loud voices to be heard. As I have said in the past, I have no way in which I can regulate the volume of any hon Member on the Floor.
The Minister for Health (Mr. Angatia): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir for your ruling. If Members listened, I am sure they will hear me. I was saying that I would like all Members to appreciate that investment in health is investment in the general welfare of this country and in development in general.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the main goals of this Ministry are about six and, I want to read them as they are outlined in the current Five-Year Development Plan. The first responsibility of this Ministry is the coverage of all cases and making sure that all people have access to hospitals.
The second aim is that we should put a lot of emphasis on maternal and child health and family planning services. The third aim is the consolidation of urban-rural curative and preventive medicine or services for the whole country. Fourthly, it is my intention to strengthen the Ministry's capacity at the district level. Here, we have set up district health management boards and I would like to ask Members of Parliament to take more interest in these institutions.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the fifth goal of the Ministry of Health is that it wants to increase its inter-sectoral co-ordination by asking other Ministries and sectors to join it in dealing with various problems such as AIDS, environmental health and other matters. And finally, according to our development plan, we want to increase alternative health financing sources. Here, we are talking about cost-sharing and I am sure that Members of Parliament are already aware of this.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, since Independence, we have been making a lot of progress and we have made some very tremendous achievements. For example, in 1963, we had only 66 hospitals, but today ---
Mr. Ogur: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I respect hon. Boy, but on very many occasions, he turns his back on both sides of the House, the Kanu side and the Opposition side, and I do not know what it means. Hon. Boy should be told not to be doing that any more, particularly when an important Motion by the Minister for Health is on the Floor. Please, Mr. Speaker, can you ask hon. Boy to move from here and go to talk elsewhere?
Mr. Speaker: Order! I do appreciate the sentiments of the hon. Member for Nyatike. The Motion of the Ministry of Health and the health of our nation are both very important. Health is a very important aspect of our lives.
Yesterday I pointed out to hon. Members that if you are sitting in your place in accordance with the Standing Orders, then you must not be on motion from position A to position B, unless you are contributing. Otherwise, it is contrary to Standing Orders. So, I will ask the hon. Members of the House to sit in accordance with the provisions of the Standing Orders and that means "sitting on the Bench".
Dr. Otieno-Kopiyo: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: I think I have made a ruling on that. Is your point of order on what the Minister for Health has said?
Dr. Otieno-Kopiyo: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Some of us who were not in this House last time and those who were here remember hon. Angatia as one of the "loudest" Back-benchers at that time. Somehow, since he became a Cabinet Minister, he does not speak loud enough for us to hear. I cannot "hear" what he is saying. Has something happened to him since he became a Cabinet Minister?
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Members! You know very well that I am not a doctor, don't you? Can you hon. Minister take a position that is near a microphone or move to the front? As I have said, health situations are very important and as you can hear from the House itself, hon. Members wish to hear what you are saying. Please, try as much as you can to increase your volume.
The Minister for Health (Mr. Angatia): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am sure that these hon. Members can hear me. It is true that I was one of the most "vocal" hon. Members of Parliament some years back, but now that what I was fighting for has been achieved, which is a good Government, I do not have to "shout" any more.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was telling hon. Members that we are operating according to our National Development Plan, and I have read out six main policies. I have always told hon. Members that in 1978 the World Health Organization made a declaration called Alma Ata which put emphasis on health-for-all by the year 2000. This means improving health care to all people. The main aim here is to put health into two parts. The first and most important part is the prevention and promotive care. The second part, which is for treatment, will receive less emphasis than the first one. I want to assure hon. Members that since Independence, we have been making a lot of progress. I had informed hon. Members about the tremendous progress that has been made, and I would like to summarize it for all the hon. Members to hear.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the first one, is that while in 1963 we had 52 hospitals, now we have 93 district hospitals, 8 provincial hospitals, one functioning referral hospital and another referral hospital being built at Eldoret. In 1963 we had 160 health centres, now we have 391 health centres and we had 250 dispensaries, but now we have 1,134 dispensaries. In the meantime, because of our emphasis on prevention of diseases, we have had child mortality rate reduced by almost 50 per cent as of now. Our life expectancy has increased from 55 years to over 60 years. These are achievements which our Government has made, and I would like to ask hon. Members to take stock of this and to be proud of these achievements.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the details of what I am saying and what we have been able to do so far are embodied in the effort of teaching the rural community to remove the burden of diseases such as malaria, intestinal worms, tuberculosis, measles and others. We can do this by use of preventive measures rather than to wait until people go to hospitals.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the second issue here is that we have decentralized medical services. The Ministry of Health and <ea/>wananchi through the spirit of <ea/>Harambee have been able to achieve what I have just mentioned. We are prepared to provide maternal health and family planning services. Here again, we are relying on the communities to do just that. Promotion of our own health is the responsibility of all of us. As I have said many times before, I would like hon. Members to realise that this year we launched a document called World Development Report which is investing in health. There are various programmes which come under this ---
Mr. Kiliku: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The hon. Minister should realise that it is out of order to read a speech. He should convince this House why the Ministry of Health should get this money and also tell us how his Ministry will use this money rather than telling us what his Ministry has achieved since Independence. We want to know what we will achieve with the money that will be allocated to the Ministry.
Mr. Speaker: Order, Mr. Kiliku! The Minister is giving a pre-view. Proceed hon. Angatia.
The Minister for Health (Mr. Angatia): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I must say that I am impressed with the interest that the hon. Members are showing in this Vote. I hope that they will give me all the money that I am asking for.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have designed various programmes which are helping us achieve these targets that I have set out. One of this is called Kenya Expanded Programme of Immunisation (KEPI). This is mainly funded by donors. As of now, Kenya has achieved 75 percent immunisation of its people. I would like to appeal to our people that we use the funds that are allocated to the Ministry to make sure that we increase immunisations coverage from 75 per cent to 90 per cent. When we finally achieve 100 per cent, we shall have the time to concentrate on other diseases.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, having listed some of these diseases, I would like to say that these programmes are funded mostly by external sources. These include maternal child health and family planning activities, the KEPI activities that I have referred to and upper respiratory infection diseases which afflict our children and also adults. We are very grateful to the international donors who have helped us to maintain these programmes and it is my sincere hope that they will continue doing so.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on curative activities, I would like to say that we have done very well by building so many hospitals. However, I would like to ask our people to reduce their tendency to over-rely on medicine. When Government gives us enough money we shall do our best to make sure that patients will be treated. At this point, I would like to tell hon. Members that in the process of expansion, we have put up some health institutions which so far are not functioning and I am sure many hon. Members here are aware of the institutions which have been put up, but are not functioning due to lack of staff, drugs or equipment. This means that the money that was received by the Ministry of Health was not enough.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, just to remind the hon. Members, some of the hospitals we have and we have not put into full use include:- Longisa District Hospital, Vihiga District Hospital, Mokowe District Hospital, and Webuye District Hospital. The new dispensaries with all the facilities, including facilities for family planning and population control, are Injinia in Nyadarua District, Cheptalal in Kericho, Gesusu in Kisii, Ochowa in Elegeyo Marakwet, Kimalel in Baringo, Inokopil in Kajiado, Ruiru in Kiambu, Sacho Health Centre in Baringo, Keumbu in Kisii, Kithigei, Isenya, Malakisi, and Manyala health centres.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, today we have nearly 39,000 people who are infected with AIDS and over 800,000 who have been found to be HIV positive, but who have not yet become clinical cases. If all the 800,000 fell ill today, they would occupy all the bed spaces in the country and we would not have any more bed spaces left.