<&>Wellington Corpus of Spoken New Zealand English Version One <&>Copyright 1998 School of Linguistics & Applied Language Studies <&>Victoria University of Wellington <&>side one <&>0:06 <&>introduction in Maori not transcribed <&>0:11 matiu rata the bill came through yesterday it's you say that you're surprised and really astounded by the government's reversal on the question of the election programmes whereby you won't get a look in are you really surprised tut no because i <.>w i <.>w <.>act <.>act our expectations were if i take anything from the minister's letter which dated on the eighth of august that's only just a couple of weeks ago it may be possible to make an adjustment to the criteria for allocation of time to political parties to accommodate a party concerned only with the contesting of maori seats now clears throat then he <.>s goes on to ask me could you confirm therefore confirm as a matter of urgency that mana motuhake's plans remain as expressed in your letter of the fifteenth which was of course we <&>1:00 were only standing for four seats now on the basis that of that letter i could take it without too much difficulty that the intent was to accomodate us you've got to remember in the nineteen eighty seven election we had the lawful right what parliament has done has outlawed mana motuhake's right to er to the same principles or <.>the the same privileges all other political parties get after all we'd qualify in every other sense of the word the only thing we couldn't qualify was that er we we the the the figure ten i mean what's magical about ten er i i point out that the conciliator in eighty four was at pains to draw attention to the broadcasting authorities that in their judgement it was not only cricket but it was it was quite improper to withhold <.>the the er principles of free broadcasting and television time to mana motuhake GIVEN the circumstance in nineteen <&>2:00 eighty seven we were allocated er a liberal time <{><[>of twenty four minutes and i'd like to think that the broadcast television broadcast of mana motuhake on that occasion would have won the emmy award for political broadcasts and er yet by nineteen ninety we're being outlawed for reasons that noone has explained noone has said clearly as to why so for those reasons i am giving some thought this morning to the possibility of issuing an invitation to maori members to now er <.>in in <.>a join us on a public platform perhaps in auckland and to explain to maori audience why they have joined in outlawing mana motuhake's right to television and free broadcasting time now if they had explained that there was something wrong or that we have done something <&>3:00 or that we were not entitled er then perhaps er voc i may not have heard it <.>un unless i've heard them incorrectly er and perhaps because of the importance of this election for the challenges that are now being made i have a great fear that coughs that what <.>the what the labour government has done is to increase the prospect of those who are <.>ac maori people who are actually calling for a boycott of the elections that er er er er that you almost get er the feeling is that they want er noone to contest er the maori members and er <,> and so it is that er we have a situation where <,> um where the the labour party is now running scared now you <.>i it's incredible to er <.>th to think that on the one hand they have eight THOUsand <&>4:00 majority in a maori seat and three and a half THOUsand in in northern maori and yet despite those massive majorities they're running scared now that's the only er view i could place on it and i'm concerned because the opportunity of being able to present to maori people an alternative viewpoint <,> so that maori people may accept the challenge because i believe that they should go to the polls i believe that nothing CAN be done unless the mandate of the maori people <.>ag is er is obtained now all of this means that major obstacles despite the MASsive majorities which in itself is an almost impossible hurdle we're now to make sure that we don't have any chance at all by outlawing not denying outlawing <&>pronounced as outlawring <,> the er the er right of mana motuhake er <.>a and here they've used the full weight of the state and <&>5:00 the full weight of the law to stop er mana motuhake from possibly winning er against the <.>a against the labour labour government <[>twenty four minutes matiu can i just word ask you here now these are laws this new law is relating to television time for <{1><[1>programmes actually the broadcasts where someone gets on and tells you a bit about the party now er er there's a good argument isn't there that the listeners don't want too much of this and that they've got to stop every single party in the world insisting on either free time or being able to inhales get money together to buy endless time so we have the <{2><[2>greens the new labour the democrats mana motuhake sort of taking up sort of two hours of t v time right up to the election every night now now some people would say that there's a good argument for for that to be stopped and just to <{3><[3>keep it at the <.>m at <{4><[4>the big parties <[1>mm <[2>inhales <.>w <[3>tut <[4>oh well of course the way to stop that is to hand us is to hand the country over er in the same way that the communist parties and others do it overseas the way to make sure that we stop people is to make sure that those who own money are the only ones who are in power i know that sometimes it can <&>6:00 be a damn nuisance but you don't have to watch it i know also that without it democracy in some respects in many country er of course er <.>i <.>i is nonexistent now the alternative to what we're doing here is to make sure that nobody else has an opinion so that those in power remain there now i i i'm conscious of the fact that er as i've said i think i could say without fear or prejudice that the <.>prog the television programme that we presented at the last election would have by any standards won the political emmy award because i don't think i ever got ANYone who said they were bored to tears with our television ads and it's a question of how parties best do them i mean they pay millions and er um er and i think that in many ways er er um er i think in many ways that <.>the they would need <&>7:00 to er we need to understand that what we're talking about here is the lawful right of every political party in new zealand to be able to obtain a level of <.>po political time and a level of <.>t radio time AND that the public purse is being USED to pay for it now as i said i know that er people use it to go and get the coffee when television shows are on i <.>know inhales but sometimes you know imagine if you are in fact the others have got it and you don't have it it is in fact a handicap and a major one at that and so er i mean if people didn't want it i have yet to see any evidence in new zealand er that people have <.>s er have marched on parliament saying don't do it i mean they'd prefer not to have it they could do without it but that really isn't the issue the issue as to why it was necessary to outlaw an existing right and to outlaw us er mana <&>8:00 motuhake er anyone would imagine we were going to somehow er knock them off er the whole four seats at the forthcoming election i quite frankly i think that the er this treatment of mana motuhake is one that the labour government will regret what do you think of the thrust of the er group in auckland with this boycott who say the real issue for maori now must be getting constitutional form or tino rangatiratanga the question of sovereignty and they say that politics is pakeha politics and in a sense seem to be doing what er a lot of minorities do when the voting system is corrupt or is gerrymandered to suit majority parties they're turning their backs on it it's a pretty good argument isn't it well i mean all <.>tha all i can say is that this bill or this law has now reinforced that hasn't it i mean it's not a good argument at all it is not a good argument you don't fight corruption by turning your back on it <&>9:00 but many minorities in the world for example new caledonia and minorities when they find that the vote is ghettoised or rigged against them they they they they the first act <{><[>that they use is a boycott isn't it <[>tut oh no look look let me say that it is quite a <.>ni a legitimate expression but it is only a good one when you know that you can influence the outcome of the election in this event it'll <.>a it will achieve nothing in this event what it will do is simply keep those who are the problem in power tut now i'm saying elections are about getting rid of people and i'm saying to our people accept the challenge for what it is dump them don't sit on your behind and do nothing and don't adopt the soft option and you know the fact you cannot turn your back on the judgement of maori people they're not turning their back on pakehas at all what they're doing is they're turning their back on the collective judgement of maori people and i'm saying and they are being <.>la er aided and abetted now by a government that is corrupt <&>10:00 <.>the the royal commission on the electoral system said first of all that the maori seats were a backwater secondly they said the voting system was unfair for maori and thirdly they recognised that the four maori seats were um um had increasingly a bad institution because they didn't allow for efficient or effective or fair representation the electorates are too large etcetera aren't the group in auckland saying in effect the same thing tut they are but there is a difference they're both sitting on their selfrighteous indignation it's easy enough to sit out there and criticise it how in the HELL do they think they can change it by sitting on their arses doing nothing i'm saying to them it is what you're not telling me anything new you're telling me the <.>obv the obvious but it is a different matter when you have to go to the platform and get a mandate for what they're telling me i'm i <.>i i concur enTIREly with the commission's view but it is one thing to tell me and it is a one thing to use that as an <&>11:00 excuse to do nothing the only way that the views of the royal commission can be affected is by political decisions on the mandate of people and er so they're not telling me anything in addition those who believe that this election should now be <.>boyc er we should boycott what is the purpose what are they saying to us that we don't have our own minds to make up our own minds to shift i know the task is impossible i know but i'm not prepared to throw away the mandate of maori people and their collective opinion because we think it's too hard all i'm saying to them if there were ever a time in the history of of of er of er of our people in the last fifty years for the FIRST time we are in in a position to make a breakthrough and to make sure we don't make that breakthrough the government has outlawed our ability to do so now that's <.>re the only assumption i can come to now um voc they have their right er i know that people do have a <&>12:00 right but let's not give them the credibility of that let's say to them come and join us what's wrong with joining us in removing it if you don't like our policies if you don't like the policies of others then YOU put up a policy well one of the things the group is doing is attacking mana motuhake <{><[>do you think do you <[>of course they are do you think they should be doing that no i mean what are they what i'm saying is it's not just an attack on mana motuhake it's an anti maori attack this this the kia mohio kia marama <{1><[1><.>ti tino rangatiratanga in what <{2><[2>way is it an attack <[1>right <[2>i have never in in <.>i in a maori way if they were genuinely concerned for the wellbeing of maori people they would've come out months before this instead of right on the eve of the elections and they would've exposed it on the marae they would've exposed it in maori meetings instead of that they exposed it in the media at no time have they confronted me or mana motuhake at no time have they come to a maori hui and have said to maori <&>13:00 people look here <,> tut i think the time has arrived when we should take collective action and not do anything and not vote at all instead of that what they have done is that they've kept it to themselves so that nobody can get around them or debate with them they've issued it not to maori people but issued it to the media i <.>ha i received a letter from them er about er two months ago inviting us to comment on the tino rangatira question quite a proper letter but i was staggered when i found that actually the letter was deceitful they had no intentions of actually getting <.>the getting the information for the purposes to which they wrote about but was merely trying to <.>a summarise what they thought they already knew so that they can actually go to the back door and say this is one reason we're not gonna do certain things i think that that was despicable to say the least why didn't they <&>14:00 have the courage to face up to us and face their own people and say to their own people it is in our mind that this is in fact is the evidence we've uncovered in two months they find that and then tell us i think that they er one almost gets the view that they're cahooting with the government to make sure that maori members so their attack on mana motuhake is an attack on every other maori it's an anti maori attack it's not an anti pakeha one it's an anti maori attack is some of the frustration in a way that a group a maori group is er you've got the the government's broadcast they're shutting out mana motuhake er and here you've got a maori group coming at it from another angle with something very damaging do you sense that perhaps mana motuhake is really on the brink of getting a seat and is that why the situation is critical <{><[>for the party <[>well i it appears to me that they're more fearful of mana motuhake than they are of the corrupt practices of the labour government it seems to me that what in fact and i've got no beg your pardons for people who are <&>15:00 going to stand in the way of the mandate of their own people and let's remember mana motuhake has been square up front and have said to maori people we will change nothing unless it's with your endorsement or support we will adhere strictly to the rule of law and your rule we're not talking about er and er and let me say that i will defend that right and i will defend the right of maori people to have a collective opinion and even if and i accept totally that the current position that's one of the reasons why mana motuhake supports electoral reform that's one of the reasons why mana motuhake is saying the best possible er hope that we've got in this is to pursue a policy that would see us establish proportional representation so that we could broaden the scope of our parliamentary representation and strengthen our position in parliament but oh no <&>16:00 what they want to do is for us to hand the mandate to them and then proceed if you like sniffs to decide issues as they see fit without further reference to us we're not having any of that and this is the first time i've heard from this group this is the first time i've heard from these people they've contributed nothing to the political life of maori people then they have the GALL er to be able to to to tell us that in their judgement this is what we should do is <.>i is it fair to say that syd jackson and others have made no contribution <.>i <.>i i've got a question about this er matiu really the inhales the <.>a although er although your concern about it er relates to the throwing away as you say of a vote or um <{1><[1>the fact that it's come on on the scene late there's a whole question here of a younger set in maoridom those who're involved in treaty cases and those involved in <&>17:00 the maori legal activity the kia mohio kia marama trust who have been fairly consistent on the question of tino rangatiratanga haven't they and <{2><[2>they do <[1>tut inhales <[2>for how long they do <{><[>have a <.>good <[>for how long two months now look we're talking about credibility here we're talking about in nineteen er and i want to say this they have the gall to suggest that their opinion on tino rangatiratanga's the only one and i'm saying the only way you can test that is to go to your people and get a mandate now according to them the way to achieve this mandate is to simply not have a collective view at all i'm not quarrelling with their right to do as they please and i'm not quarrelling with their contribution to political activities in the past i've worked close with er mister jackson and and er most of these people for almost all of my political life that's not what i'm on about what i am saying is that their attack syd jackson was reported as actually stating that he had asked maori <&>18:00 people not to vote for mana motuhake why didn't you say not to vote labour or not to vote national or not to vote greens but no not to vote <.>ma mana motuhake for what purpose was er with that er with that invitation and it was simply because the election of mana motuhake means that it will remove the platform that they have enjoyed for so long in being able to stand out there say what they like and account to noone <&>18:30